Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

People love controversy

more time is used on some sites talking endless controversy than talking about Lord Krishna and how to become Krishna Conscious

Thats the point of introducing controversies - to forget about Krishna and to divide and rule.

I know a number of devotees who in the early 70s initiated as follows: The tp would do the fire sacrifice and Srila Prabhupada would send you your spiritual name and beads by letter from wherever in the world he was. How would you describe this method of initiation?

Srila Prabhupada says you cannot even talk about Krishna unless you know WHO the bona fide guru is whom you are supposed to serve and who links you to Krishna:

"By the Grace of Guru one gets Krishna and by the Grace of Krishna one gets a bona fide Guru. Therefore Krishna consciousness means staunch faith both in Guru and Krishna. One minus the other is no good for the devotee. So your faith in the principles of devotion to Guru will certainly help you more and more Krishna. Do not ever try to approach Krishna directly. Anyone who talks of Krishna without service to Guru will not be successful." (SP letter 9.27.67)

It has nothing to do with divide and rule, but everything to do with the most fundamental aspect of KC: WHO is the current link in the parampara who will take you back to Krishna? Is it:

1) Srila Prabhupada

2) One of the 80 or so gurus voted in by a 2/3 GBC majority

3) A.N. Other?

[quote][cite] jay:[/cite]Srila Prabhupada says you cannot even talk about Krishna unless you know WHO the bona fide guru is whom you are supposed to serve and who links you to Krishna...
[/quote]

Bhaktivinoda Thakura was not initiated until quite late in his life (when he was in his 40s), after he already wrote several of his books about Krsna. Are these books worthless because he was not initiated when he wrote them? If so, why did Srila Bhaktisiddhanta continue to publish and sell them? And he was initiated by Bipina Bihari, an acharya in the Vamsivadananda Thakur parivar. His association with Jagannatha dasa Babaji did not develop until very late in life, after he already wrote most of his books.

Why are you "jumping over" Srila Prabhupada to tell us about the pastimes of Bhaktivinoda Thakur? Srila Prabhupada wrote that if you want to understand Bhaktivinoda Thakur, you have to understand it from HIM, Srila Prabhupada. And SPs instruction that you can NOT approach or even talk about Krsna without serving the bona fide guru cannot be any clearer:

"By the Grace of Guru one gets Krishna and by the Grace of Krishna one gets a bona fide Guru. Therefore Krishna consciousness means staunch faith both in Guru and Krishna. One minus the other is NO GOOD for the devotee. So your faith in the principles of devotion to Guru will certainly help you more and more Krishna. Do NOT EVER try to approach Krishna directly. Anyone who talks of Krishna without service to Guru will NOT be successful." (SP letter 9.27.67)

Which part of "no good", "do not ever" or "will not be successful" do you not understand?

For me, both Srila Prabhupada and Bhaktivinoda Thakura are in the category of departed acharyas. I never had any direct contact with them, only through their writings. Thus I see no difference between reading instructions of SP or SB. Srila Prabhupada does not have exclusive rights to Gaudiya Vaishnavism, or to being an absolute authority for everyone at all times. And when I want to understand something I will read the information from various authoritative sources to get a better picture.

You should know that many letters attributed to SP were not written by him, only by his secretaries. That is an undisputable fact. At best, SP actually signed such letters (sometimes signatures were stamped or forged by his assistants). You think Prabhupada actually had time to write the thousands of letters attributed to him nowadays? Practically all letters addressed to Prabhupada were handled by his secretary who determined if SP even needs to read them, let alone reply to them. On top of that the letters were always meant for a particular person at a particular time. Keeping all that in mind, letters are not nearly as authoritative as books and their instructions are hardly universal.

You should study these things before you try to present yourself as an authority to others. Repeating ISKCON myths and fairytales is a favourite pastime of many devotees, because the standard for honesty and truth has been abandoned in favor of the idea that "end justifies the means".

You can believe in any nonsense theory you like, but you should always respect the historical facts and the word of the shastras.

You cannot jump over the GBC, that is the maximum offense imaginable, but you can jump over Srila Prabhupada, no problem.
Anybody that jumps over Srila Prabhupada, is doomed, ungrateful materialistic devotee that everybody should be guarding off.
Such pride, you would be drunkards and fools instead.

[quote][cite] diyourself:[/cite]You cannot jump over the GBC, that is the maximum offense imaginable, but you can jump over Srila Prabhupada, no problem.
[/quote]

the "jumping over" argument is just as bogus when appled to GBC as when applied to Prabhupada. What exactly do you mean by "jumping over"? There are thousands of instructions Prabhupada left in his legacy. Some of them may not apply to you at all. Some may appear to be very confusing and even contradictory - the bitter divisions among the devotees as to how they are to be understood are a PROOF of that. And SP is not here to settle such disputes in a clear an unambiguous way. That is a FACT.

Since SP is not here to explain these things to us once and for all, one must use the standard Vedic tool of GURU,SADHU, and SHASTRA to understand things properly.

it appears contradictory and confusing to you, because you do not understand them and more importantly do not accept them. Those books are devotional ecstasies that brought so many devotees to KC and now you come and give you opinion based on your meager understanding and experience as THE way to go.
The bitter divisions of the devotees came when the GBC auto proclaimed themselves acaryas and started from the minute one to change everything. Srila Prabhupada instructions are clear as the sun, only people like you need glasses to filter them to suit your whims.
I saw you in another post putting blame on SP shoulders of what has happened in ISKCON the last 30 years, I only can say with sorrow: shame on you!

[quote][cite] diyourself:[/cite]I saw you in another post putting blame on SP shoulders of what has happened in ISKCON the last 30 years, I only can say with sorrow: shame on you![/quote]

Really? that is what I wrote? do you mind quoting that?

Every ISKCON fraction claims they have the perfect understanding of those "clear as the sun" instructions of Prabhupada, and accepting their version is the only way to go. Unfortunately that is simply their opinion, based on their faith in a particular interpretation of these instructions, or worse yet - their con game aiming at money, power, and influence. I do not trust either the GBC fraction, nor the ritvik fraction, or any combination of the two. To me they are both apasampradayas that bring shame to Srila Prabhupadas line. I trust and accept the traditional Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta of our sampradaya - based on the guru, sadhu, and shastra principles. This is not acting on my whim.

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite]For me, both Srila Prabhupada and Bhaktivinoda Thakura are in the category of departed acharyas. I never had any direct contact with them, only through their writings. Thus I see no difference between reading instructions of SP or SB. Srila Prabhupada does not have exclusive rights to Gaudiya Vaishnavism, or to being an absolute authority for everyone at all times. And when I want to understand something I will read the information from various authoritative sources to get a better picture.

You should know that many letters attributed to SP were not written by him, only by his secretaries. That is an indisputable fact. At best, SP actually signed such letters (sometimes signatures were stamped or forged by his assistants). You think Prabhupada actually had time to write the thousands of letters attributed to him nowadays? Practically all letters addressed to Prabhupada were handled by his secretary who determined if SP even needs to read them, let alone reply to them. On top of that the letters were always meant for a particular person at a particular time. Keeping all that in mind, letters are not nearly as authoritative as books and their instructions are hardly universal. [/quote]
[p]
See how you belittle as much as you can Srila Prabhupada?

Of course, you still think that nobody can understand, you are so very helpful.

If YOU are confused, do not lump us in the same sack, please. Thank you.

Lets be practical, not just talk general:

Tell me one important thing, one important instruction that you do not understand (hence, nobody understands) that caused confusion in the whole movement.

[quote][cite] diyourself:[/cite]
See how you belittle as much as you can Srila Prabhupada?

Of course, you still think that nobody can understand, you are so very helpful.

If YOU are confused, do not lump us in the same sack, please. Thank you.

Lets be practical, not just talk general:

Tell me one important thing, one important instruction that you do not understand (hence, nobody understands) that caused confusion in the whole movement.[/quote]

How is that belittling Srila Prabhupada? It is a known fact that many letters were written by his secretaries. I worked for BBT long enough to know Srila Prabhupadas style of writing and it is not that hard to figure out which letters were actually written by him.

I am not confused regarding Prabhupadas instructions, because I understand them through the principle of guru, sadhu, and shastra, for my own personal use. But nowadays his disciples are very divided with respect to the guru (succession) issues for example, or on the issue of jivas origin. That is a hard fact.

let me remind first you what you have said, cause looks like like you retreat, mixing the letters argument:

"There are thousands of instructions Prabhupada left in his legacy. Some of them may not apply to you at all. Some may appear to be very confusing and even contradictory - the bitter divisions among the devotees as to how they are to be understood are a PROOF of that. And SP is not here to settle such disputes in a clear an unambiguous way. That is a FACT. Since SP is not here to explain these things to us once and for all, one must use the standard Vedic tool of GURU,SADHU, and SHASTRA to understand things properly."

See how you belittle!!! Again, the cause of disruption is NOT the "ambiguous" instructions. It is the rascal followers..

I told you, show me an important instruction that is "very confusing and contradictory" and "cause bitter divisions", not a philosophical standview that does not really matter, like the jiva falldown.
If all the problem was the jiva issue, we will be chanting and dancing in ecstasy.

please respond

[quote][cite] diyourself:[/cite]
See how you belittle!!! Again, the cause of disruption is NOT the "ambiguous" instructions. It is the rascal followers..

I told you, show me an important instruction that is "very confusing and contradictory" and "cause bitter divisions", not a philosophical standview that does not really matter, like the jiva falldown.
If all the problem was the jiva issue, we will be chanting and dancing in ecstasy.
[/quote]

Prabhu, the "belittling" is only in your mind. You are trying to discredit me as an "aparadhi" and thus dismiss the points I am raising. Standard trick of desperate debaters, especially on the losing side.

I said: "Some may APPEAR to be very confusing and even contradictory..." based on the OBVIOUS existence of various interpretations of these instructions. Fact is: you and other ritviks are claiming that Prabhupada wanted the ritvik system to go on forever, while GBC claims Prabhupada appointed the first 11 gurus to succeed him. Each party is quoting Prabhupada left and right claiming that their interpretation of Prabhupadas instructions is the only correct one. How is that not confusing to people who joined ISKCON? This is how they often perceive these instructions when they observe the GBC vs. ritvik battles.

my usual argument is not "aparadhi", but this time, my friend it is. But not to condemn you, but to warn you of the poison you have imbibed from i do not know which party or on your own. Probably you are not aware but
the use of the word "appears" and "obvious existence" are a political way to say what I denounce, just because one cannot possibly do it in a direct way and not being outright obviously wrong and yes, aparadhi.

"Fact is: you and other ritviks..."
Who told you am ritvik? I am not.

You begin your "facts" with assumptions, what can be that called?

I apologize for assuming you are a ritvik-vadi. Most of them use the same arguments and language you use. In that case let me change this sentence, and hoppefuly you will see the point Im trying to make:

Fact is: ritviks are claiming that Prabhupada wanted the ritvik system to go on forever, while GBC claims Prabhupada appointed the first 11 gurus to succeed him. Each party is quoting Prabhupada left and right claiming that their interpretation of Prabhupadas instructions is the only correct one. How is that not confusing to people who joined ISKCON? This is how they often perceive these instructions when they observe the GBC vs. ritvik battles.

It is still a fact.

GBCs and allies want us to choose from their flock, ritviks negate any guru but Srila Prabhupada, the "fact" is that choosing a guru is totally personal, that is why Srila Prabhupada did not "clarify" what cannot ruled.
Srila Prabhupada said, by qualification. So GBC is right because people can choose whoever they want including rubber stamped gurus and ritviks are right because some people will not accept anybody except Srila Prabhupada.
What is the "non clear" thing here? Havoc is caused by competition by the parties (including you, putting down the ritviks), but the one that chooses is free for all times and under all circumstances to choose guru. And nobody can rule supreme but the concept of qualification and ones own vision.
What makes a guru "qualified"? Of course, there are descriptions of qualifications, but at the end, is totally subjective, so leave alone ritviks, are you better than them anyway? They have their choice, you have yours (whatever it is).
Again you are putting the burden of havoc on Srila Prabhupadas instructions, although they are simple and to the point. I can only say shame, shame, shame on you.

Oh yeah? Well tell me this ..... youve got all these people getting on a little boat called The Minnow. Theres the skipper, Gilligan, Maryann, Ginger, the professor, the millionaire and his wife .... and theyre supposed to be only going for a three hour tour. Yet when they get stranded on that uncharted isle they all happen to have enough changes of clothing to last years. That just doesnt make sense to me. Can somebody clarify this?

Oh, this is such a difficult ... well... painful subject matter. When we were notified that His Divine Grace had departed, i was at an airport distributing books. It was such a surreal experience ; i called my mother for a sympathetic ear,... and she told me i could "come home now"... We godsiblings in general just did not know what to do with our grief. Later i was so grateful that i had second initiation before i even saw Srila Prabhupada physically for the first time. I already knew from him that everything i needed to get out of the material energy was there in his Divine Vani. I need not speak of the changes that began taking place, the confusion, the factions, and so on. Ultimately i could not stay in temple life after spending 15 years in it. That was a long time ago.
The Lord tells us that what is illusory is temporary and will not last... and what is eternal can not be ended. To quote Srila Prabhupada quoting Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur, " He reasons ill who say that Vaishnavas die, whilt thou art living still in sound. The Vaishnavas die to live and living spread the Holy Name around." i believe that Srila Prabhupada is ever present, and because of his perfect service in pure Vaishnava humility, his eternal perfection in service of the lotus feet of of his beloved Spiritual Master and his Lord Sri Krsna, we all can know about the Great Acaryas, the Great Devotees, the Eternal Pastimes, the Great Discussions, the Great Questions and Perfect Answers that will benefit each and every soul who desires this liberation (at the least) and the full revival of original Krsna Consciousness (at the height)... for the next 10,000 years.
May we each find our way to the Lotus Feet of the Lord by the causeless mercy of the perfect Vaishnava Acaryas, who are one in purpose. May we be ever careful to learn to be ever respectful of Srila Prabhupada and all Great Acaryas. May we seek the forgiveness for our offences that arise from our lack of understanding. And may we know that Krsna is eternally our Best Friend.

Some of you with your pointed opinions and versions of SPs mood are a prime example of why we need LIVING GURU to continue the Sampraydaya. Jai Radhe!

...looks like we will have to wait till all of Srila Prabhupadas diciples have disappeared,then we will see what we have to work with.

Hariharibol your comments are distuburbing considering most of my Godbrothers and sisters were diciples of Srila Prabupada and the sadhu sanga is bliss!
The problem is too many of SPs diciples are not willing to surrender to a proper guru in the disciplic succesion and would rather make up rules as they go along or speculate on matters that are easily expained by guru.

All Glories to Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga!

One day Sri Madhavendra Puripada appeared to mother Sri Sita in a dream and told her with sweet words Listen, O Sita devi! My name is Madhavendra. Sri Advaita Candra took mantra from me. I will now give you the same siddha mantra that I have given to your husband and that attracts Krsna. Krsna does not eat grains offered to Him by an uninitiated person, and it is a great offence to act in a wayward manner."
Sita-devi said: "I am very fortunate that I met you. Please purify my heart and body with mantra initiation." Then Madhavendra Puripada gave Krsna-mantra initiation to Sita, after which he vanished.
When Mother Sita awoke, she said: "How amazing! Madhavendra Puripada gave me mantra diksa in a visionary dream!" Sita devi told everything to Advaita Acarya, who said: "You are very fortunate. All your bonds have been severed."
Still, despite Sitas vision, He gave her initiation again, according to the rules, on an auspicious moment.

(The Glories of Advaita Acharya, translated by Advaita Dasa, published by Rasbiharilal and Sons, Loi Bazaar, Vrindavan. End of chapter Advaita Prabhus Marriage)

That one cannot take initiation from a guru who departed from the planet is also clear from this episode from the life of Ramakrsna das Babaji (previously named Rampratap) recorded in Gaudiya Vaisnava Jivani by Haridasa Dasa of Haribol kutir, Navadvipa:

"During Ramprataps stay in the cave, Balwant Rao, the elder brother of Madhava Rao, the King of Gwalior, once came and expressed his loyalty to him. It was arranged that Balwant would take spiritual initiation from Krsnacaitanya dasa. But when Krsna caitanya suddenly died, Balwant was initiated by Kesavdeva of Gopinathabag."

First of All Ritvik is not a Problem and hence there are no Solutions. Ritvik System of Initiations were conducted by Srila Prabhupada when he was very much present on this planet and he is conducting the same even now for his Genuine Followers. The July 9th Letter Also states that Ritvik System of initiations would continue after His Divine Graces Physical Departure from this planet and future Initiates Would be His Divine Graces Disciples.

Check & read my blog http://zaysen.blogspot.com and decide yourself!

Anirudh Das