Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

Generally speaking we do not have to "forgive" because we are not judges anyway,
If we happen to be authority figure somehow responsible for the person , we have to forgive if it is indeed an accidental falldown and the person is overall positive and willing to rectify.
Accidental means not repetitive and consciously planned over a significant period of time.
Thus a sannyasi that has been breaking the principles for years hiding is not "accidental", but there the only action required is to respectfully avoid such personalities Not for the sake of judging or forgiving, just because time is short and we need it all to advance in spiritual life.
But most important is not to "forgive" but to help each other to be properly situated so that we all can advance to our next step in surrender to Guru and Krishna.

mishra: Generally speaking we do not have to "forgive" because we are not judges anyway,

Even if we are not meant to be the judges, because we are still materially conditioned (to a greater or lesser degree) we will judge others....either with speech or in our minds. How can we help someone who we judge in a negative way?....hence we need to "forgive" (i.e, not judge but view the situation in a mature fashion) and see that if someone is making a sincere effort to make advancement then he be encouraged to continue with the progress. SP elaborates in the next verse:

"The question remains, then, How can a person engaged in abominable activities '97 either by accident or by intention '97 be a pure devotee? This question may justly be raised. The miscreants, as stated in the Seventh Chapter, who never come to the devotional service of the Lord, have no good qualifications, as is stated in the uc0u346 ru299 mad-Bhu257 gavatam. Generally, a devotee who is engaged in the nine kinds of devotional activities is engaged in the process of cleansing all material contamination from the heart. He puts the Supreme Personality of Godhead within his heart, and all sinful contaminations are naturally washed away. Continuous thinking of the Supreme Lord makes him pure by nature. According to the Vedas, there is a certain regulation that if one falls down from his exalted position he has to undergo certain ritualistic processes to purify himself. But here there is no such condition, because the purifying process is already there in the heart of the devotee, due to his remembering the Supreme Personality of Godhead constantly. Therefore, the chanting of Hare Kru803 su803 nu803 a, Hare Kru803 su803 nu803 a, Kru803 su803 nu803 a Kru803 su803 nu803 a, Hare Hare/ Hare Ru257 ma, Hare Ru257 ma, Ru257 ma Ru257 ma, Hare Hare should be continued without stoppage. This will protect a devotee from all accidental falldowns. He will thus remain perpetually free from all material contaminations."

Notice SP says here "either by accident or by intention". So even in that situation of intentional falldown, SP recommends to chant the Hare Krsna mantra without stoppage. It appears to me that some of the personalities in the past stopped chanting the Hare Krsna mantra and so were not able to continue.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]In my opinion we should follow Prabhupada example, that he has set. He would forgive in most cases, bar the few especially when a person would take advantage of money and run away with it. So each case should taken as discussed in connection with what Prabhupada did in such a situation, and that is part of our chastity, do as Im doing. That is most practical to if I have to avoid speculating.[/quote]

"No one should take advantage of this verse and commit nonsense and think that he is still a devotee. If he does not improve in his character by devotional service, then it is to be understood that he is not a high devotee."

In my opinion we should follow Prabhupada example, that he has set. He would forgive in most cases, bar the few especially when a person would take advantage of money and run away with it. So each case should taken as discussed in connection with what Prabhupada did in such a situation, and that is part of our chastity, do as Im doing. That is most practical to if I have to avoid speculating.

rasa108:"No one should take advantage of this verse and commit nonsense and think that he is still a devotee."Bg 9/30 purp.

We should look at exactly how Prabhupada implemented this statement. Because some may say, oh you have committed nonsense, therefore Prabhupada will not accept you as a devotee. That is an incorrect interpretation that is often coming from people who did not have direct association with Prabhupada. I would rely on direct records of what Prabhupada did to understand what he have said. Otherwise we may be acting against the second part of your quote by not allowing the person to: "improve in his character by devotional service" - it should be clearly understood, that only by devotional service itself, that person can get rid of all and any anarthas, not because of social pressure or assigned austerity. Let me know if you think otherwise.

Yes my personal attitude is that a devotee who continues to make an effort to rectify him/herself by seriously following the process of devotional service, should be encouraged as a devotee. Someone who is not willing to do this will not be able to continue - history shows this.

still, I dont see the point, either you asociate with that person or avoid, that is the only choice, unless we are speaking about an authority figure, which we are not in most cases.
one judges, but for the practical purpose to choose who you asociate with, without really "boxing" anybody.
otherwise we are judging the position of someone for subtle sense gratification.

My experience is that it is pretty easy to tell if it was accidental. Talk to them about it and you can usually tell within the first two minutes.

Another point Mishra is to give your association so that the person is hopefully able to recover and make advancement....my point was that if you are not forgiving, then you will find it hard to give your association and help the person, otherwise it is just a gossip topic and the person is made to feel unwanted....if he is ignored or made into a subject of gossip, both are not constructive. If you are in a weak position yourself and cant give your association, that is another thing, obviously then you would offer respects from a distance.

obviously i was talking about a pretender, otherwise sense weakness is not a disqualification for devotional service, cheating is.

I think pretender is one who is not honest about ones position and projects an image of something one is not. One has to be conscious of the fact that to claim one is a devotee, before reaching the stage of ruci is a form of a pretense. One must be honest, and if such honest person with or without intention gets into maya, we should give him association.

That sounds condescending, since Im not at the stage of ruci and since Im not an advanced devotee and am intentionally or not, most of the time under mayas spell, I need association of all honest devotees. If some of them closer to ruci, better it is for me.

There are other two pretenders, both cheaters, one is dishonest judge and other dishonest failing sadhaka who pretends to be siddha. Both are actually two sides of the same coin. Almost all the time I find people who judge others are not up to standard themselves, of unaware of ones shortcoming, maybe that is something that pushes them to do that.

There is yet a completely separate category, and that is person who would abuse a position of power for selfish and hurtful to others ways. That is where the only area of judgment that to be reserved. That is the reason why CPO resolutions are disabling person to hold such power position of to be in the proximity to potential victims. That is a completely different category. Justice process and transparency in this kind of cases, should be always carefully followed, and I personally have a preference to using external to ISKCON judgement system- better yet state run.

1. simple association

first try to honestly judge the person in the mirror. if someone knew all the things I did, would they still want to associate with me?

2. seeing someone as an authority in spiritual matters

the same rule can be applied, but the criteria are much higher. some of the people that pass for gurus in ISKCON do not even meet my criteria for people I want to associate with, let alone consider them to be a spiritual authority.

Forgiving people is one thing, but desiring their association is something else.

If we believe what you have just said on No.1 we automatically should not trust you on the definition No.2. :-)
While its true since there are 70 of so people who are considered gurus by others, one should not assume that they are your gurus. You are lucky if one or two of devotees will inspire you to associate with them as gurus or spiritual authority, something to cherish.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]You are lucky if one or two of devotees will inspire you to associate with them as gurus or spiritual authority, something to cherish.[/quote]

Definitely lucky! I know several very qualified devotees among Iskcon gurus that I see as spiritual authority (siksa gurus), and whom I have no problem recommending to newcomers as possible initiating gurus.