Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

1. they cannot explain how one can know who is entitled to give ritvik initiation
2. anyone could say I am Brahma disciple cause I became devotee reading Brahma samhita
3. fallen and kanishtha "gurus" do not invalidate the sampradaya system

abhiram: "so how is it that some senior devotees can become ritviks when it is so obvious that their philosophy is flawed?"

i dont know any senior ritviks well enough to tell you what their real motives are. i do know adridharana (kolkata) to some extent, to a lesser degree madhupandit (bangalore).

i cant imagine that either of them really believe the TFO nonsense. IMO they see the whole situation as a chance to take over ISKCON, at least they did think so in the beginning.

(the followng is my personal opinion, partially based on knowledge ot the situation, partially on speculation. im not really sure about my conclusions, but thats what i believe.)

both, adridharana & madhu pandit were unhappy and unsatisfied in their relationships with their GBCs; adri because they wont let him run kolkata temple as his personal fiefdom, were demanding accounts about his financial dealings, etc. madhu pandit had problems with the congregation in and around bangalore who wouldnt agree to listen to him always. his GBC (HH JPS) is very much into congregational development and didnt support him, at least not the way he expected.

both of them are intelligent and capable managers. apparently they decided they could do better than those who didnt appreciate or support them as they deserved. since thats not something you can make a lot of propaganda about, some other publicity-factor had to be found, which happened to be this ritvik-thing.

i know some other devotees who went the ritvik way, and in all those cases its personal bitterness or jealousy, rather than firm belief in TFO.

youre correct, abhiram prabhu, TFO is a joke - or would be, if it didnt create so much trouble.

ys phani.

theyve read at least some of srila prabhupadas books, presumably, and still dont understand that he wanted the parampara to continue - as it always has: from guru to disciple, and both of them alive at the time of initiation.

im not a scholar, but to throw away what SP preached through all of his books (as far as ive read them), on the basis of that "july-9-letter," seems insane - or so full of material desire & jealousy that reality doesnt matter anymore.

ys phani.

Ritvik initiation is bogus in the first place. Where is the guru consent to accept that disciple?

Siksa disciple of SP is ok, all of us are. But not diksa, thats the nonsense part.

Every eagerness has to be guided by knowledge, otherwise it leads to disasters.

Some men may have eagerness to be a gopi with Krishna and dress like that right?

so how is it that some senior devotees can become ritviks when it is so obvious that their philosophy is flawed?
i mean, isnt the final order a joke?

having said all I said before, I still see it as a valid alternative, from the point of view of freedom.

If somebody does want to take ritvik initiation and consider himself direct disciple of Srila Prabhupada, I will not discourage any spiritual alternative even if it is philosophically flawed.

The same goes for other religions. Spiritual eagerness never should be discouraged

I have met some very qualified ISKCON brahmanas who were/are convinced of TFO. They only are became unconvinced by the vaishnava dealings in ISKCON and the practical activities of ISKCON versus the adherents to ritvik theory. They got fried out because of certain dealings by people who were supposed to be gurus, so it made philosophical sense that only Prabhupada is a guru.

Intelligence is a strange thing. There are so many phds who believe in Sai Baba.

The thing that made me disregard them at first glance was their approach. All they ever seem to do is resarch who fell down and why. Any ritvik site ive come across just broadcasts total negetivity into your face. Anyone with a little intelligence can sense how un-vaishnava like it is to constantly faultfind and criticize. Theyre whole approach and behaviour seems so contradictory to what prabhupad taught! They just seem to be distressed all the time....a little sad actually to imagine the amount of vaishnava aparadha they are committing...:(

>They got fried out because of certain dealings

Yes, its a frustration-grown doctrine.

>Intelligence is a strange thing. There are so many phds who believe in Sai Baba.

Imho, this has to do with emotionality rather than intelligence. So some people easily believe pretty much anything if its palatable in one way or the other.

> Yes, its a frustration-grown doctrine.
Thats true. I havent meet a ritvik who wasnt fried to death for whatever reason and now just criticizes wildly.

If you become too political you also become a ritvik.

GBC was given the authority by Srila Prabhupada to appoint ritviks on his behalf. Those who want to become regular "gurus" should start their own math.
Now GBC appoints gurus.
Now ritvik movement is against GBC., GBC gives a pejorative meaning to "ritvik"
GBC says cant be any ritvik, Ritviks say cant be any guru.
See the fun?
TKG in Topanga Canyon:
"Actually, Prabhupada never appointed any gurus. He appointed eleven ritviks. He never appointed them gurus. Myself and the other GBC have done the greatest disservice to this movement the last three years because we interpreted the appointment of ritviks as the appointment of gurus."...

Ritviks do have some very good points, they want Srila Prabhupada to be the centre of ISKCON, whats bad about that?
They believe that Srila Prabhupada is the current head of our Parampara again is that bad?
All they wanted was that the current ISKCON gurus initiate on behalf of Srila Prabhupada and continue to make disciples for Srila Prabhupada.
Because they believe all this is not going on in ISKCON they are pointing it out and it seems that people dont like that, and are banning them and giving them in my opinion an unjustified bad name.

...the only thing wrong with " ritviks " is there isnt enough of them.

ritviks say nobody can ge guru but Srila Prabhupada, and that is wrong philosophically. Another thing is the multiple fiascos they quote as "proof".
So, both of them, GBC and ritviks want to monopolize and standardise the guru-ship. I see them as sides of the same (wrong) coin.

...ritvik is good,not all " ritviks " think alike.any Iskcon initiate following strictly and brahminicaly inclined ( like the head pujari ) is a candidate to become a ritvik priest,and upon the recommendations of the local Temple President should be able to preside over the fire yajna during an initiation ceremony

Everything is in Prabhupadas books,so the new devotees need only read Srila Prbahupadas books to become fully enlightened in this life time and go back to Godhead.

[quote][cite] Tulsiananda das:[/cite]...the only thing wrong with " ritviks " is there isnt enough of them.[/quote]

Exactly. There are currently 6 different factions of "ritiviks", they mainly fight with each other these days and mainly because they lack unity and coherent understanding of ritvik, guru, acharya terminology. [quote][/quote] Lack of knowledge leads to endless infighting without reason, thus thier offensive on sampradaya became more or less a sidekick.
[quote][/quote]
But who cares really if Hansaduta is guru and ritvik, only ritvik or ritvik acharya? Who cares if you are initiated by guru, acharya, temple president or ritvik acharya? Ones you have guru nistha and this guru nistha helps you in your Prabhupada nistha
[quote][/quote]
So this lack of knowledge is the problem that leads to diminished guru-nistha, and if you have less of one it does not make more of the other...

A guru or goswami is one who can control his senses,according to Nectar of Instruction:only by this qualification can he make disciples!Among the 11 first gurus,many couldnt control their senses,due to association with opposite sex or same sex. Strict sannyasis etiquette require complete dissociation with women,as the Bhagavatam relates.Personal massages by female devotees is definitely something to avoid!
Money is another item which is dangerous for the renounced order of life,and no serious sannyasis should have a personal bank account,as all donations are for preaching purposes,and not personal gadgets and luxury life,otherwise he becomes a cult leader,exploiting the pious tendencies of the crowd.All accounts should be crystal clear transparent,and this would strengthen the position of the guru or sannyasi as bonfide authority.The sastras recommend for sanysasis to constantly travel and preach,and not go into management.Imagine the results Iskcon will get if such policy is applied!Getting attached to one place or suite is no good sign:we have an example to follow:His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada!

[quote][cite] govinda das kindly missed the point of the question:[/cite]!Getting attached to one place or suite is no good sign:we have an example to follow:His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada![/quote]

I think the gbc should make peace with the ritviks & try and work out what is the right way, after all ritviks are also devotees in the line of Srila Prabhupada.

Kes, you should read a bit on the issue of heresy, how its dealt with in various spiritual traditions, starting with ours.

I think that we should put all of this fighting energy into kicking the atheists and mayavadis on the face. not eachothers face. I dont fully 100% agree with everything the rtviks say - nor do I fully 100% agree with whatever the GBC says - why should I dedicate my life to splitting hairs though? Better to take that sort of frustrated energy out on the atheists.

This dork Richard Dawkins has written a best seller - The God Conspiracy followed by an organized steady stream of books by other authors God is Not Great etc....

We should kick their asses and give each other a break. Thats what the Christians, Jews and other religious intellectuals are focusing on right now - but the Hare Krishnas who are supposed to have real answers are too busy with their messianic bewilderment.

Take the message from the parampara and give it to others. When maya orchestrates opportunities like these books that focus peoples attention on the question of whether or not God even exists we should use these opportunities to their fullest and not act like the three stooges (Larry, Curly and Moe) hopelessly sorting out our authority issues and beating each other over the heads with mallets etc....

I fully agree with Ekendra prabhu, in ISKCON there is too much fighting spirit directed against Vaishnavas. It is just foolish and ruins spiritual lives in the name of being spiritually "pure" It is all foolishness. Even the GBC has used spiritual matters to simply harass pure devotees and suffered because of it. Krishna has even arranged that some pure devotees leave their body rather than be humiliated by the GBC, that is the sorry state of affairs as I understand it.

Quite frankly some of the ritviks have good points. I dont agree with their final conclusions, but I think some of their gurus have driven them to it.

amalagaura:Quite frankly some of the ritviks have good points.

I never seen even one original good point. All thier points are the same as GBC restructuring comm. c 1987.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote][cite] govinda das kindly missed the point of the question:[/cite]!Getting attached to one place or suite is no good sign:we have an example to follow:His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada![/quote][/quote]

Religion is big business,as anyone who has visited India should agree!Ritvik or any temple owners have to manage huge amount of laksmi,which should be redistributed to different spiritual projects.The GBC is supposed to oversee that no one claims ownership of temples as private property,and send regular reports to them.If ritviks dont believe in any control from above,how to be sure the laksmi is being spent wisely and not misappropriated?The established ritvik temple managers make sure that no one interfere with their management,and if everyone declares independance,without any superior control,only Krsna knows what will happen to the Society.Though I know that regular reports have not been given by temple presidents for a long time and misappropriation have also been carried out.

Just like Christianity has witnessed more and more splits,Iskcon is also experiencing the same evolution:using Prabhupadas fame for money making,not really for love of Krsna!

The positive side of Ritvikism is that it will allow massive initiations,as Christian baptism,and so propagate love of God worldwide,while queuing for initiation presently,is reserved to a few,thus large regions are being neglected on this planet.
A ritvik priest is also automatically more humble....as he accepts that he has not evolved to pure devotion already. So many fell,due to untimely excessive worship as Acaryas,while disobeying the orders of the Founder Acarya.A sincere GBC should see to the accomplishment of Prabhupadas dream:turn this planet into a unified vaisnava paradise!

Another one:
Ritvik priest is more humble but his/ "disciple" is more puffed up...

Baptism is a form of nama karana samskara, not diksa. There are no prescribed vows, sadhana, etc.

Ritvik (= priest) has no disciples on his own.

Interestingly - some think that because sadhana is not given by guru, but it is only reminded by him, he is not the prime guru, Prabhupada gave sadhana.

However its not that sadhana given is the essence.

Its the process of relationship with the person who gave you the sadhana and how one achieves such perfection in rati developed by this relationship that makes one advance. This requires interaction that even some of SP both initiated and siksa disciples dont have. That interactive link is the role of ISKCON guru and there is no role like that with Ritviks (they say). However if you look at Madhupandits way, he does not claim to be charismatic leader, but functionally he is and thus is the guru in exactly the same way.

Comment to Veda prabhus comment; "Ritviks initiations are bogus in the first place". Please refer to The Bhaktivedantas web-site in the Nama Hatta section regarding a letter from Madhu Pandit das titled,"More Vaisnava Acharyas Accept Ritvik" This is a very important document. Please read it carefully. Your statement Veda prabhu, is unsubstantiated. It is nonsense! Where is the proof?

[quote][cite] abhiram:[/cite]What is the most fundamental thing that is wrong with their so called philosophy?[/quote]

It seems to me that they dont understand what pramanas are and what the differences between them are.[br][br]

(I was talking to a Protestant recently, and was reminded of ritviks. I quizzed him on epistemological topics, and he displayed the expected confusion.)

Oh well at least the ritviks have put Srila Prabhupada back in the centre (his rightful place) The ritvik initiations cannot be substantiated in shastra, that is their most fundamental error or issue. Iskcon also has its fair share of issues and errors that it is still dealing with so it seems silly for Iskcon to be pointing any fingers. Time for everyone to agree to disagree and just respect each other and get on with their respected paths.

Protestantism actually is a ritvik variant since vis-a-vis Catholicism it rejects the tradition (~ sadhu) and the magisterium (~ guru), relying only on the Bible (~ sastra) which everyone is encouraged to interpret. So similarly, out of three pramanas only one remains.

Putting the heretical Prabhupada in the center is much worse than keeping the real Prabhupada on the side. (Obviously the ideal is to put the real Prabhupada in the center.)

Theres no agreement with heresy. All theistic traditions have the same position on this.

Protestantism was a reaction to the corruption within the church, it happens when so called sadhus/priests/popes claim to be the divine medium/connection to the supreme turn out to be totally fake. The common people lose their faith and see through all of the bigotry and falsehood, still having faith in god they turn to a simple life free from the politics and corruption of the church, they often feel a greater connection with god by reading their book in a forest (Gods temple) rather than be hood winked by the pretenders in temples and churches.

Its a stance often taken by individuals to preserve what little faith is left after having most of their faith completely shattered and destroyed by the wolves in sheeps clothing. Whether one agrees with it or not it is easy to understand why people completely reject the formal church and other systems claiming divine connection when the leaders behave in such outrageous ways. This is also one reason why so many have left Iskcon.

VEDA>>Putting the heretical Prabhupada in the center is much worse than keeping the real Prabhupada on the side. (Obviously the ideal is to put the real Prabhupada in the center.)

There is no heretical Prabhupada that is absurd, there is only the real Srila Prabhupada. The heresy is in the change of the doctrine a follower makes after the leader or founder departs.

The ritvik camp as far as I know feel that no one after Srila Prabhupada has proven themselves to be completely free from vice and corruption so they have lost faith in the system and have claimed they have found statements by Srila Prabhupada backing up their claims on the ritvik approach. But I am not a ritvik follower or supporter so I dont claim to be completely upto date on what their whole scene is.

Its a sudra solution - cut the hand to remove the boil.
Otoh, brahmana solution is to fix the system.
Wolves in sheeps clothing cant shatter anyones faith if he understands whats going on. If not, such faith wasnt much of value, like a house built on sand.
Therere more reasons for leaders behaving in outrageous ways although the mainstream media suggest only one response - "crooks". Its not so simple. Interestingly, the one group mostly focused on is the Roman Catholic Church, with all its faults possibly the last large enough force able to oppose the NWO. Considering whom the media serve and whom they target, Im sure this is a behind-the-scenes power struggle. "Anyone who watches commercial television is a fool." (dr. Wu Tao-Wei)
Heretical Prabhupada is a tool to preach heresy akin to gnostic Jesus, etc. Heresy is produced mostly by word manipulation and selective quoting out of context. It consists of guru aparadha, vaisnava aparadha and jiva himsa.

[quote][cite] manasi_seva:[/cite]Protestantism was a reaction to the corruption within the church, it happens when so called sadhus/priests/popes claim to be the divine medium/connection to the supreme turn out to be totally fake. The common people lose their faith and see through all of the bigotry and falsehood, still having faith in god they turn to a simple life free from the politics and corruption of the church, they often feel a greater connection with god by reading their book in a forest (Gods temple) rather than be hood winked by the pretenders in temples and churches.[br]

Its a stance often taken by individuals to preserve what little faith is left after having most of their faith completely shattered and destroyed by the wolves in sheeps clothing. Whether one agrees with it or not it is easy to understand why people completely reject the formal church and other systems claiming divine connection when the leaders behave in such outrageous ways. This is also one reason why so many have left Iskcon.[/quote]

I dont think so at all; in fact, such rejection of the formal religious system (this system being based on the disciplic succession from God Himself onwards) is something that has always bewildered me.[br][br]

The principle of the disciplic succession from God Himself onwards is the only realistic hope for anyone to overcome the (practical) problem of solipsism. This problem isnt just a fancy philosophical abstraction; any housewife can experience it intuitively. ("How do I know I am not just imagining things?")[br][br]

There may be an issue about which tradition of the disciplic succession to follow; but the efficacy of the principle remains.[br]
Solipsism (or extreme epistemic egoism) is the refuge of madmen.

VEDA>>Wolves in sheeps clothing cant shatter anyones faith if he understands whats going on. If not, such faith wasnt much of value, like a house built on sand.

Tell that to many of the Iskcon Gurukulis that were abused and raped, infact read the only book published by any ex-Guru-Kuli "My Karma My Fault" by by Daniel Lutz
He is good example of someone who at the opposite extreme no longer even believes in God due to the way he was treated in a so called Godly organization. These children entered the world with a blank piece of paper and what was written on it was purely by the Iskcon organization, the house that was built on their sand VEDA was built by ISKCON!

Most organizations end up changing the very words that were first spoken by the original teachers, Christianity is but an extreme example where so many changes have been made so in essence they have themselves become heretics by slowly changing the very philosophy they set out to follow.

That is why avatars descend because everything gets lost in time BG 4.7 "Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion '97 at that time I descend Myself."

Even while Srila Prabhupada was alive there were several major deviations that needed correcting so its not surprising now that he is no longer present this has happened more and more and will continue to happen.

Iskcon deviated the day Srila Prabhupada died we all know that, its no longer deniable. Who would have believed that pujaris in Iskcon would get paid to worship Krishna? I would have never thought I would have seen this in my lifetime. The changes to Srila Prabhupadas books another example, the list goes on and on. These are all deviations that happen over time due to one reason or another, one deviation leads to the next deviation. Its human nature unstoppable and that is why the avatars descend.

VEDA>>"the Roman Catholic Church, with all its faults possibly the last large enough force able to oppose the NWO."

Oh I see the New World Order is it? as Srila Prabhupada eloquently put it "purity is the force" and we all know the Vatican and its followers have none of this, that is why many RCs including myself joined Srila Prabhupadas movement, only to see Iskcon lose all of its purity soon after Srila Prabhupada left.

NWO is all about money and power there is nothing new about it, this is the struggle that has been going since time immemorial. They are just starting to learn its more efficient to do it subtly using modern day economics and global banking than it is to use wars. Wars are still used for those few countries left that refuse to be swallowed up by the modern global economic system, such as Islamic countries as they have religious views on economics and some are refusing to play ball. Countries that are giants and have their own nuclear weapons like China also pose a big issue to the global bankers. But effectively the financial slavery chains are on most peoples legs in the world. The first slaves were housed and fed by their masters, in modern times the common people (modern slaves) house and feed themselves but they are all slaves to the financial system. So the NWO that you speak of VEDA is already here and the Vatican has money and blood all over its fingers. I am sorry to say VEDA but any faith you have in the RC organization is faith misplaced.

I am not sure if Prabhupada ever put it "purity is the force" -- as far as we know it was ramesvara prabhu who did said it (quoted it) and that became a bbt slogan.
I do not think that Veda puts "faith" in RCC -- but it is true that protestantism is based on false foundation, Sola scriptura -- only scripture; and we all know well that the scriptura was written down AFTER the tradition of passing on the knowledge and ritual was already established, thus at least for some few hundred years Sola scriptura is an hollow principle.

"Regarding Pyari Mohan, Ramacarya, and Nanda devi dasi taking second initiation, if you recommend, thats alright. But now they must keep very clean and never break the regulated principles. Purity is the force and if the people in general notice that we are clean both inside and outside that is to our credit. Regarding your last question, yes, you may call Their Lordships Radha-Gopivallabha."

(Letter from Srila Prabhupada to Trai, 4th of March 1973).
http://prabhupadaletters.com/d.php?g=171093

Seems that Srila Prabhupada did say it ccd, but you are missing the point and wandering off on a tangent, the point being made is about the Vatican they are also about money and power, they simply use religion to get it. You cannot fix or challenge the issue when you are complicit in the same crime.

I am not debating in favor of Prostantism/Ritvikism and its obvious failings, so please save your philosophical foundation debates for someone who believes in it and promotes it, if you read my thread ccd you would understand I am simply pointing out how Ritvikism/Protestantism it is often a reaction to the formal organization that becomes corrupt.

Christianity basically died the day Christ left the planet and all of the teachings have been heavily changed and politicized so everything that follows is heresy to one degree or another and the Vatican is some just some bogus organization that claims to be the via medium with a bunch of priests that cannot live up to their own standards while taking as much money from the congregation and covering themselves in pure gold, all throughout history they have pointed their fingers and yelled the word "heretics" and had these people put on trial and then stole their land and wealth. The only reason Christ ever approached a temple was to kick its money trays in the air.

Ritivikism is alive and well in Iskcon by the way, there are many second generation Iskconites that took diska from some of the eleven that fell or never got up (whatever) and refuse to take diksha again. Some did take it again only to experience the same mess all over again. Many of these now consider Srila Prabhupada their diksha/shiksa guru and refuse to take on another diska guru and consider they have a direct connection to Srila Prabhupada and many of these still live and operate in the Iskcon environment. Im not saying its advocated but it definitely exists.

But in this forum I can see I need to say this in triplicate:

[I am not a Ritvik/Protestant or a supporter of it] [I am not a Ritvik/Protestant or a supporter of it] [I am not a Ritvik/Protestant or a supporter of it]

because not many here care to read responses in their entirety, they just react to some phrase without reading the full response.

Manasi, youre appealing to sentiment. I know Devadatta personally, his mother and sister and other gurukulis from Korsnas and elsewhere. I heard from them what they went thru. By your logic all of them should be rejecting KC. Thats not the case at all. The rational ones understand that their experience was anti-KC due to specific persons. Iow, they got the fake money. Yet the real money (KC) exists. Some of them chose it, some not.

The title "may karma my fault" hints at one prominent philosophical misinterpretation of karma. I know that this mechanical view of karma was and may be still held by some devotees and its also found in India. But its wrong. SP used to say that little knowledge is dangerous and gave example how wives of German soldiers became atheists.

"so called Godly organization"
So called refers to those who didnt follow KC, not that KC is wrong.

"changes"
The essence of all theistic traditions is still the same - therere jivas and God and their loving relationship is eternal blissful reality. Always remember Krsna and never forget Him. Everything else is secondary. No amount of wolves and changers can stop you from realizing and practicing it. Only you yourself when deluded. Become aware of deluders, if you still can.

"he [SP] is no longer present"
Hm? Hes definitely present in various ways, just like other acaryas of other traditions. Ritviks say that this equals to the ability to give diksa but thats against gss.

"Iskcon deviated the day Srila Prabhupada died"
No, only some persons deviated by their personal choices. Most of them already got their reactions.

"paid pujaris"
Does it stop anyone from worshiping Krsna for free at home or from becoming an unpaid temple pujari?
I mean, if such a qualified person shows up, will the managers refuse him if they can save laksmi?!
Same goes for the paid BBT staff. Please refer all pros able to work for free to the BBT! Prabhupada will bless you. Im ready to teach them everything I know for free. Therere hundreds of GV books waiting to be published in all the languages of the world...

"Vatican and its followers have none of this"
How many of them did you investigate? Youre a victim of the media propaganda. Im aware of RCC problems but also know that therere many sincere people in RCC. So I wouldnt dare to generalize. And therere other Cath churches as well.

"NWO is already here"
But its up to you how much you allow yourself to be victimized. But to protect oneself one first has to know whats going on.

"Vatican they are also about money and power, they simply use religion to get it"
Compare them with their opponents who use irreligion to get it. Thiefs screaming thiefs. Easy if you own the media.

"Christianity basically died the day Christ left the planet"
I see you have no idea, neither from the historical pov nor from ones own experience. You simply parrot the standard media propaganda.
I could go on and on speaking about experiences of _non_ Christians about the power of churches as holy places, cross symbol, holy water, communion bread, Masses, Catholic exorcisms, etc. but everyone can find them for himself. (A hint: You wont find them in mainstream media. Think why.)

"Ritivikism is alive and well in Iskcon by the way, there are many second generation Iskconites that took diska from some of the eleven that fell or never got up (whatever) and refuse to take diksha again."
Thats _not_ ritvikism at all.

"I am not a Ritvik/Protestant or a supporter of it"
So why do you defend them?

I cant take you seriously. You speak greater and greater nonsense.

[quote][cite] manasi_seva:[/cite]Seems that Srila Prabhupada did say it ccd, but you are missing.. blah blah.[/quote] No I am not missing anything. He did not "say" it. His secretary typed a lettter after Prabhupada said something, but it is close to what he said, however I would prefer that people didnt say that he "eloquently put it "purity is the force" " -- it was his secretary who put it, it;s a fact. To prove conclusively that he said it you need a tape, and there are none...

I would also want to know if you are "not a Ritvik/Protestant or a supporter of it" -- So why do you defend them? (not that you should fight with them, but still).

ccd>>>No I am not missing anything. He did not "say" it. His secretary typed a lettter after Prabhupada said something, but it is close to what he said

Oh so according to ccd all of Srila Prabupadas letters cannot really be quoted on as they are obviously not quite correct? close but he would have put it one way and his secretary would have put it differently. How convenient so now we can all argue as to what Srila Prabhuada really said in his letters and also as most of his dictations were on tapes and most of these tapes were returned and reused and recorded over (according to Hari Sauri) there is no one who can really prove what Srila Prabhupada said to anyone (in written form) as it may indeed be slightly different to what his secretary puts in black ink on paper? Is this your interpretation ccd? or do you have a resolution from Iskcon on this that none of Srila Prabhupadas letters can be quoted verbatim as they are actually slightly interpreted and re-written close to what he said but not actually what he said?

So ccd do you have an Iskcon resolution on this or is it your own speculation?

ccd>>it was his secretary who put it, it;s a fact. To prove conclusively that he said it you need a tape

You say its fact ccd, but do you have the tape proving he did not say it? If you dont have the tapes ccd then by your own admission you also do not know conclusively!

ccd>>I would also want to know if you are "not a Ritvik/Protestant or a supporter of it" -- So why do you defend them?

Wow ccd you really dont read threads do you? dont or cannot one or the other, go back and read my threads again and try quote me where I defend them, you need to learn from VEDA see how he copies my text then responds to it, that atleast shows hes actually reading what I have written. There is even a little quote button ccd to make it easy for people like yourself to quote and then respond to what others have said. When you take the time to do this I will take the time to respond to your questions.

Dont be offended that I did not read some of things you write, most of the tapes (not the book dictation tapes) were kept. I do not care so much for speculations, I just want the facts, and the fact is that Srila Prabhupada did not type his own letters and I will not blame his secretaries. On how to treat letters read relevant portions of the Vedabase, particularly the introduction, which lists how to treat different evidences. You just can not claim "prabhupada eloquently put it" if you talk about a letter typed by secretary based on the comments received by Prabhupada. Good example of such letter is quoted below, I hope you are not offended if I disagree that it is also "prabhupada eloquently put it" example or do not read some ramblings that are irrelevant:

Letter to: "Children" at New York
-
Vrindaban
26 July, 1967
67-07-26

Dear "children" at New York,
Please accept my blessings. We had a very nice plane ride here to New Delhi, although it took somewhat longer than we had anticipated. We arrived in London on schedule Sunday morning, and Kirtanananda gave me a massage, and then I took shower bath and rested until afternoon. We boarded the plane for Moscow and no more than we got in our seats, when it was announced that due "to health regulation there would be a short delay-the delay, however, turned out to be some 16 hours. It seem that someone on the plane when it came into London had smallpox, so the plane was quarantined until it could be thoroughly fumigated. So they put us up for the night in the "Excelsior Hotel, which was something like a dream palace, complete with air conditioning, TV, Hi-Fi, swimming pool and everything else. We had a nice meal and slept very nicely. We boarded the plane for the second time the next morning at nine a.m. and took off for Moscow shortly thereafter, and arrived at that bastion of propaganda about three hours later. We had an hour stop there, so we got off the plane just to take a walk. We were met by a "friendly guard and informed that they would keep our passport until we returned to the plane, and then "guided down the corridor to the terminal. Unlike London or New York, there was no hustle or bustle at the terminal, nor were there many people-and it was very quiet! The only remarkable features were the propaganada pictures and the many racks of free books and literatures. We were glad to get back on the plane and start for Delhi. The flight from Moscow to Delhi took about 8 hours, and when we arrived it was about midnight local time, and when we stepped out of the plane I KNEW IT WAS INDIA! It was like walking into a solid wall of HEAT. But thats what Ive been wanting, and it felt good to me. Some friends were there to meet us, so after clearing customs we drove into town, where we stayed (and are presently) at a Radha Krishna Temple near Kashmiri Gate.
Today I have consulted with two Ayur Vedic physicians, one of whom is famous in these quarters, and they conclude that my trouble is with my heart, but that all danger is past, and that I will be just fine, provided I follow simple regulative measures with my diet and work. I also have been given some medicine, so we shall see how Krishna desires. Tomorrow, Krishna willing, we will go to Vrindaban, where you can send mail to me.
I have played the record a number of times here, and when they hear it they think it is wonderful. I am very anxious-even more than ever-for our American House in Vrindaban. I always said that if I could get the American boys and girls to take up this movement the rest of the world would join. Now my theory is being proved. So now I am depending on you all to carry on this great mission in my absence; chant and hear, and Krishna will bless you.
Your ever well-wisher
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

(Now at "the time" Srila Prabhupada would sometimes handwrite or type his own letters, but this is a clear example of something that is certainly not his words, even he signed it, just an example.)

I am cool Manasi, it if you do not want to reply to Veda or his questions. It is also a form of an answer to the question and what was the question, right: "What is wrong with the ritviks?"

I think what you are saying is what is right with ritviks, right? Okay.

ccd I am not offended that you dont read my threads, really I couldnt care less, but when you waste my time by asking me questions or throwing up some debate about things I have clearly not written I can only see you as a lazy person who cannot or does not read the entire thread, wasting both your time and mine.

ccd>>think what you are saying is what is right with ritviks, right? Okay.

No, I made simple observation that ritviks and protestants have come about as a reaction to the corruption within the formal organizations, just a simple observation.

I take it that you do not have the actual tape of letter I quoted? So it means you also do not conclusively know what Srila Prabhupada really said on the issue? Personally I think its a foolish pastime to throw in doubt what Srila Prabupada said in any letters unless you yourself posses the tape/s in question. Clearly you dont posses any of these tapes so maybe you should take step back from sounding like an authority on what Srila Prabhupada said unless you can prove otherwise.

Throwing up one incident is just that one incident where Srila Prabhupada may have got someone to type a letter of thanks/kind words because he was short on time, but to use that to throw in doubt anything Srila Prabupada said in his letters without any specific evidence is wrong.

However as I stated before this letter issue is a side tangent to the point that was actually made, you seem to have completely missed the original points raised, you seem to have a habit of doing this.

VEDA>>Manasi, youre appealing to sentiment.

Oh really, what the fact that so many Iskcon children got abused? this is appealing to sentiment VEDA? Wow so nice of you to write others peoples abuse off like that. Just make sure you let Devadatta know this the next time you see him as you make it sound like you and he are very close. Iskcon writes off the abuse as merely a past transgression by a few bad people that have been booted out of Iskcon, nothing could be further from the truth.

VEDA>>By your logic all of them should be rejecting KC

No I did not say all of them I said many of them, another miss-quote. I also gave a hard example of the only one who went through the experience and has written a book on the subject and is now a non-believer not just in KC but a self confirmed atheist due to his experiences at the hands of the wolves in Vaisnava clothing.

VEDA>>So called refers to those who didnt follow KC, not that KC is wrong.

I never ever referred to KC as being wrong, another one of your miss-quotes. KC existed along time before Iskcon existed and will exist along time after it doesnt exist. Becareful dont mix KC and Iskcon together for they are totally different things. KC is the essence, while Iskcon is an incorporated society/institution that without members ceases to exist.

VEDA>>The essence of all theistic traditions is still the same - therere jivas and God and their loving relationship is eternal blissful reality. Always remember Krsna and never forget Him. Everything else is secondary. No amount of wolves and changers can stop you from realizing and practicing it. Only you yourself when deluded. Become aware of deluders, if you still can.

You missed the point here, young innocent children are not like adults who can protect themselves physically and mentally they are very impressionable, a blank piece of paper and as I stated before it was the wolves in Vaisnava clothing that made such a huge impact on them that many (not all) will never get back to practicing bhakti yoga in this life.

VEDA>>"paid pujaris"
Does it stop anyone from worshiping Krsna for free at home or from becoming an unpaid temple pujari?
I mean, if such a qualified person shows up, will the managers refuse him if they can save laksmi?!
Same goes for the paid BBT staff. Please refer all pros able to work for free to the BBT! Prabhupada will bless you. Im ready to teach them everything I know for free. Therere hundreds of GV books waiting to be published in all the languages of the world...

Ok so now we have paid pujaris, paid temple presidents, paid sanyassis and paid gurus and thanks to VEDA we can add paid bbt staff to the list. I guess its one way to stop people leaving Iskcon atleast the ones that are interested in making money. Yes it probably took the Roman Catholics hundreds of years before they put everyone on the payroll, while Iskcon only took a few years. I wouldnt mind so much if they made the money through genuine honest dealings but as in the local Iskcon scene they send money collectors out on the street (mostly brahmacharis) they go on the streets and tell complete lies about using all of the money for poor children in India. The truth is the brahmacharis pocket 30-40% of the money and the rest goes back to the Temple president where he then pays himself first and then he pays his most loyal staff.

I have given thousands and thousands over the decades, I dont live in a temple, I am a married householder and I have my own successful business. I would be insulted if someone offered me money to perform any service in Srila Prabhupadas temples. When I joined Iskcon I sold my car and closed my bank account and gave everything to Iskcon, as a brahmachari I owned nothing, we even shared kirtas and dhoties practially all I owned was my kopins. VEDA the point is no one is setting the example of bhakti anymore, Narayana Maharaja is right Iskcon can no longer give bhakti all they know how to do is make money and fill their pockets.

Everyone knows that paying people to perform service in Iskcon is a complete deviation, Srila Prabhupada did not want that, it is a flashing neon sign attesting to Iskcons failure to follow Srila Prabhupada and as previously stated deviations are infact forms of heresy.

VEDA>>"Vatican and its followers have none of this"
How many of them did you investigate? Youre a victim of the media propaganda. Im aware of RCC problems but also know that therere many sincere people in RCC. So I wouldnt dare to generalize. And therere other Cath churches as well.

As I said I grew up a Roman Catholic in a RC family I know hundreds of them. Oh Im a victim of propaganda? You are the one who thinks the RCs will take on the NWO, like I said the Vatican has blood and money all over its fingers, Its all about money and power and thats the same thing the Vatican wants and has. Sure some of the everyday RCCs are sincere (I was) but their leaders are not.

VEDA>>"NWO is already here"
But its up to you how much you allow yourself to be victimized. But to protect oneself one first has to know whats going on.

Sure and the best way is to find Sri Guru and chant Hare Krishna, in the end we all die including the global bankers.

VEDA>>"Vatican they are also about money and power, they simply use religion to get it"
Compare them with their opponents who use irreligion to get it. Thiefs screaming thiefs. Easy if you own the media.

The Vatican is only about money and power they are worse, they pretend to be religious..whats worse a materialist or a materialist that wears Vaisnava clothing and reaks havoc and abuse where ever he goes. Its a no brainer.

VEDA>>"Christianity basically died the day Christ left the planet"
I see you have no idea, neither from the historical pov nor from ones own experience. You simply parrot the standard media propaganda.
I could go on and on speaking about experiences of _non_ Christians about the power of churches as holy places, cross symbol, holy water, communion bread, Masses, Catholic exorcisms, etc. but everyone can find them for himself. (A hint: You wont find them in mainstream media. Think why.)

Again you are completely missing the point, Its a fact after every spritual leader dies the disciples start changing the philosophy it was a point of heresy begins at home. Sorry VEDA I dont follow mainstream media, but it does sound like you have joined a Christian Revival group. You need to go back study the history of the Roman Catholics and the Vatican, I dont mean the history written by the Vatican I mean the real history. It is there you will find so much evil and darkness that has built them into the power they are today.

VEDA>>"Ritivikism is alive and well in Iskcon by the way, there are many second generation Iskconites that took diska from some of the eleven that fell or never got up (whatever) and refuse to take diksha again."
Thats _not_ ritvikism at all.

Try quoting my full text on this: "Some did take it again only to experience the same mess all over again. Many of these now consider Srila Prabhupada their diksha/shiksa guru and refuse to take on another diska guru and consider they have a direct connection to Srila Prabhupada and many of these still live and operate in the Iskcon environment" Meaning they dont need a diksha guru they have Srila Prabhuapada as their diksha Guru, that is the same as the ritvik camp.

VEDA>>I cant take you seriously. You speak greater and greater nonsense.

And I cannot take seriously those that are on the Iskcon payroll

What are you talking about Manasi. Prabhupada did not ever use tapes to dictate letters. He received mail, then got his secretary to read the mail to him and then dictated the answers to a secretary who took notes. These answers then were put in some coherent form by a secretary who (sometimes with some spelling problems like Brahmananda had) would type it, in his own expressions or as close as he could to the notes he took. There were no tapes for letters used by Prabhupada, thus you can not say "prabhupada eloquently put it" if it is in the letter form (unless it is an early letter or a handwritten note).

[quote][cite] manasi_seva:[/cite]I am simply pointing out how Ritvikism/Protestantism it is often a reaction to the formal organization that becomes corrupt.[/quote]

It is true that the corruption of a religious organisation and the subsequent schisms and abandonment of the religious path sometimes co-incide. But to ascribe causality simply on the grounds of some observations of some phenomena is poor philosophy.[br][br]

[quote][cite] manasi_seva:[/cite]You missed the point here, young innocent children are not like adults who can protect themselves physically and mentally they are very impressionable, a blank piece of paper[/quote]

As far as I understood, this is not in line with Vaisnava philosophy either.

manasi, I didnt deny the abuse. Thats a strawman, your favorite approach.
No missquote, I just extrapolate your logic. Devadattas logic, akin to German soldierss wives ("God didnt protect, lets give Him up"), is wrong.
ISKCON helps KC persons to associate. So theyre not "totally different things".
Is the future daivi varnasrama planned to be money-free?
You always repeat about your "local ISKCON scene" but never mention if you let the GBC know about the situation. If not, youre indirectly supporting it.
"Iskcon can no longer give bhakti" is one of the greatest nonsenses I ever heard. But youll have to come to Eastern Europe (South America, etc.) and see for yourself. If you want to see, that is.
Again, you generalize about RCC leaders from your frog-in-the-well-somewhere-in-U.S. position. You should learn something about the underground Church in the Communist countries, its strong relationship to Vatican and how the state competely failed to eradicate it mainly because of it. RCC leaders in CZ were practically all great personalities appreciated by the Church members and many others. I can give you the names of Cardinals if you want to read about them.
I dont ever defend "materialists in Vaisnava clothing". Earlier I wrote about that.
Im not missing the point, I refute your idea that theres no spirituality left in RCC.
Where do "evil and darkness" come from? From the enemies of God who try to influence devotees. Seen the Constantine movie? That pretty much gives the idea, too outlandish for some.
You try to confuse diksa/siksa guru to save your proclamation about ritvikism in 2nd generation devotees. Siksa is also a direct connection yet diksa is a different type of that. Only a diksa disciple can continue the parampara. They dont claim to be SP disciples, just his followers - a big difference.
"And I cannot take seriously those that are on the Iskcon payroll": What an argument! Im not on ISKCON payroll.

This line of discussion came about due to Iskconites here pointing the finger at who or what groups are heretics. Like I said as soon as a spiritual leader dies the disciples immediately set about changing the philosophy, mood and direction. Iskcon is no exception. All deviations are forms of heresy.

If we take a standard meaning of the word "a professed believer who maintains religious opinions contrary to those accepted by his or her church or rejects doctrines prescribed by that church.

Iskcon needs to look no further than Iskcon itself to find many a heretic.

VEDA>>You always repeat about your "local ISKCON scene" but never mention if you let the GBC know about the situation. If not, youre indirectly supporting it.

The GBC have placed their man here VEDA, get your head out of the sand hole, this is not some localized issue you are forgetting how many people are on the payroll it goes all the way to the top just like the Vatican. All complicit all filling their pockets with Srila Prabhupadas money. Its so easy to trace corruption, just follow the money trail. Both are now organizations focused on money and power over the congregations. The essence left Iskcon back in 1977 what you see left is a cute performance designed to keep the bucks rolling in. That is not to say there are no sincere devotees within Iskcon, but I see more and more seeking Sri Guru outside of Iskcon in places less obsessed with money, buildings and power.

As Sridhar Maharaja said "We have left all social concerns and so many other shackles. For what? For the Absolute Truth. And wherever I shall find that, I must bow down my head. And if a great soul shows us, "This is the path to where you will find your thirst quenched. The line is in this zigzag way," we must accept that for our own interest. We are worshipers not of form, but of substance. If the current of spiritual substance comes another way, but I think that I must try to go this way to reach my goal, it is only jealousy, blind tenacity to stick to the physical thing."

VEDA>>Seen the Constantine movie?

No but I know his history I dont use mainstream media or modern day movies to enhance my knowledge base.

VEDA>>"And I cannot take seriously those that are on the Iskcon payroll": What an argument! Im not on ISKCON payroll.

I wasnt referring to you specifically but should the cap ever fit please feel free to wear it.

> This line of discussion came about due to Iskconites here pointing the finger at who or what groups are heretics.

manasi, dont talk about some impersonal Iskconites out of a sudden, it was me who said that.

> All deviations are forms of heresy.

> If we take a standard meaning of the word "a professed believer who maintains religious opinions contrary to those accepted by his or her church or rejects doctrines prescribed by that church.

Deviation isnt heresy unless professed as (the only) true doctrine. Which anti-GV doctrines ISKCON pursues? Quotes, please.

> The GBC have placed their man here VEDA, get your head out of the sand hole, this is not some localized issue you are forgetting how many people are on the payroll it goes all the way to the top just like the Vatican. All complicit all filling their pockets with Srila Prabhupadas money. Its so easy to trace corruption, just follow the money trail. Both are now organizations focused on money and power over the congregations. The essence left Iskcon back in 1977 what you see left is a cute performance designed to keep the bucks rolling in. That is not to say there are no sincere devotees within Iskcon, but I see more and more seeking Sri Guru outside of Iskcon in places less obsessed with money, buildings and power.

Report to the police names of specific persons with evidence of what theyve stolen. Anything else is an useless talk.

> As Sridhar Maharaja said "We have left all social concerns and so many other shackles. For what? For the Absolute Truth. And wherever I shall find that, I must bow down my head. And if a great soul shows us, "This is the path to where you will find your thirst quenched. The line is in this zigzag way," we must accept that for our own interest. We are worshipers not of form, but of substance. If the current of spiritual substance comes another way, but I think that I must try to go this way to reach my goal, it is only jealousy, blind tenacity to stick to the physical thing."

Good. Is your purpose of coming here to recommend ISKCON to follow BRSS? If yes, you missed the Terms of Use.

> I wasnt referring to you specifically but should the cap ever fit please feel free to wear it.

Since you talk to me I expect you referring to me.

VEDA>>Deviation isnt heresy unless professed as (the only) true doctrine. Which anti-GV doctrines ISKCON pursues? Quotes, please.

By dictionary defined meanings that is not correct a heretic is one who holds a belief contrary to the church he belongs to. In the history of the Roman Catholics even Cardinals have been accused of heresy, thousands of innocent people falsely accused of heresy were sent to prison and in many cases death and the church had the right to acquire the persons land and assets. It became a powerful political weapon a way of removing people that did not bow down to the false and fake leadership within the church. You better go back and read your history books again.

The actions of the church was a direct contributing factor to the growth of Protestantism. One source of income was the sale of indulgences. In the time of Sixtus IV (pope 1471-1484) the sale of plenary indulgences made up a considerable portion of the papal budget. There were payments for absolution following serious crimes. Every crime had its price: so much for murder, so much for incest, so much for sodomy, so much for masturbation, and so on. According to the tariff published by the Roman chancery, a deacon guilty of murder could expect to be absolved for 20 crowns.

Its no wonder Prostestantism had a huge growth during these periods, the church itself had fallen into complete debauchery and heresy. This is what happens when the focus becomes money and power.

VEDA>>Report to the police names of specific persons with evidence of what theyve stolen. Anything else is an useless talk.

When you send collectors on the street dressed in Karmi clothing shaking tins on the corner of streets and proclaiming you are helping the poor people of India its a complete sham, lies, deceit. These activities are condoned by the GBC the leaders of Iskcon, they apointing the TPs that run this mode of operandi, so the leaders of Iskcon condone lies and deceit do they not?. Yes its a good point these activities should be reported to the police and local investigators. I will pursue it in my local zone.

VEDA>>Good. Is your purpose of coming here to recommend ISKCON to follow BRSS? If yes, you missed the Terms of Use.

TOS: Institutional propaganda or own master glorification not needed (keep in mind there are vaishnavas of many denominations visiting the site.

I only quoted Sridhar Maharaja on his definition of how truth is not tied to a physical institution it seems your comments about heresy in regards to other Vaisnava groups are actually against the TOS, maybe you should read the TOS.

There may well be ritviks here in the forum and as the TOS states (keep in mind there are vaishnavas of many denominations visiting the site)

One of my first comments on entering this thread was "Time for everyone to agree to disagree and just respect each other and get on with their respected paths. "

> By dictionary defined meanings that is not correct a heretic is one who holds a belief contrary to the church he belongs to.

Dictionary and practice were often different. How do you know about someones belief unless he speaks it out, preaches it and behaves accordingly?

Im in favor of the anti-heretical approach used by Desert Fathers, as well as Gaudiya Vaisnava acaryas: strong preaching and if needed, an excomunication. No physical extermination ever mentioned.

I surely know that heresy accusation was abused, like many other things. Yet it doesnt make heresy null and void. Fake vs. real money again.

Jesus said to Peter that the Church wont be overcome by forces of hell. That much for "the false and fake leadership within the church". All this is temporary, misleading the superficial ones. The sincere leaders and followers will persevere.

> Yes its a good point these activities should be reported to the police and local investigators. I will pursue it in my local zone.

Finally something reasonable from you.

> I only quoted Sridhar Maharaja on his definition of how truth is not tied to a physical institution it seems your comments about heresy in regards to other Vaisnava groups

Truth must be ascertained in itself, independently of any group, and differentiated from untruth (heresy). When I say that ritvikism is heresy I support it by arguments from gss. See previous threads.

The point is that I dont care much about groups (you wont find me neither comparing ISKCON with other groups nor promoting specific gurus) but about their philosophy. Thats the topic of this site. Devotees often tend to deviate from this purpose to bash or adore various groups which can be done elsewhere.

VEDA>>Jesus said to Peter that the Church wont be overcome by forces of hell. That much for "the false and fake leadership within the church".

According to what we can read Jesus only approached temples/churches to kick their money trays in the air, its sounds like the statement above is exactly what Jesus would not say.

The words that Jesus spoke were not written down until some 1-2 generations after his passing, its anyones guess as to what he really said, the church had a vested interest in changing the teachings to suit their ends. There are endless and I mean endless accounts and proof that most of the texts were tampered with but how convenient that an institution promotes that it can never be overcome by the forces of evil because Jesus said so (if you believe that you will believe anything), again you need to read your history VEDA the church at times was the personification of evil. Sixtus IV (pope 1471-1484) is just one example.

VEDA>> All this is temporary, misleading the superficial ones. The sincere leaders and followers will persevere.

Oh of course its just the divine lila of the church leaders to mislead the superfiicial ones, Is that how you think of the child abuse within Iskcon? OMG You have been hoodwinked!

It also has to be said that there is no good evidence that Jesus really existed. There is a respectable case that he did not. Some of the reasons for doubting his existence are the lack of any independent record. The New Testament cannot be relied on for various reasons - the earliest parts were written a generation or more after the supposed lifetime of Jesus, by unidentified authors who cannot have met the living man and who contradict each other. The earliest records, by Paul, betray pretty much no knowledge at all of his life or teaching and a suspicious dependency on "visions" of him. Early traditions give wildly different birth dates for Jesus. All of the elements of Christianity including its central teachings were already in circulation in the Middle East at that time.

But if he did exist why would a spiritual person assign his legacy to an institution that did not even exist? Krishna did not he assigned it to Sri Guru and advised us all to seek him out and inquire from him submissively, not to seek out an institution whose foundations are built on blood, money and power. Institutions by their very nature place their own survival above spiritual teachings and are prepared to sacrifice anything in order to survive, especially if there is money and power to be had. History has proven this time and time again.

Sorry, I gave up on Christianity (The Institution) along time ago, if RC is your thing good luck with it.

manasi, church means sanga. Its quality is based on the quality of its members. The RCC withstood the test of time. The presence of all those problems and the survival is itself a proof of divine content and guidance for me. The same could be said of ISKCON, imho. Where theres nothing, even death doesnt take, as we say here. (Meaning that asuras infallibly detect any spiritual essence and fight it but dont care about dead club-like churches.)
The perennial battle of forces of light and darkness is some sort of lila. The rest of par are your strawmen.
German High criticism, Gnosticism, etc. are considered heretical by both RCC and GV standards.
As far as tampered texts, read on Dead Sea Scrolls and Masoretic texts.

You start out saying the church is the sanga (actually the sanga is everything, the church is simply an external institution used to identify a group or bring a group of like minded people together), and then you end up getting stuck on the physical church, Christ is being followed where ever his teachings are being followed, forget about the church. The church is purely external, it only has value when the people in it are connected to Christ via the internal (the spritual connection by following his true teachings) History has proven that the formal Vatican (leadership of the church) deviated from his teachings along time ago, they are all about power and wealth. Christ as far as we can read about him was never about power and the accumulation of wealth. The only battles the Vatican is engaged in is hanging onto power over the congregation not to guide their flock (that is but a charade) but to fleece their flock and grow fat from the wealth they can extract.

VEDA>>The presence of all those problems and the survival is itself a proof of divine content and guidance for me.
The banking Institution has survived for thousands of years, first started by the ancient Greeks is that proof of their divine content?

The problem with your way of thinking is that you end up having absolute loyalty to the external church and if it falls into a corrupt state you give endless support to it, the truth is found where ever it is being practiced as Sridhar Maharaja put it, if you are too much attached to the form you will not recognize it when the substance departs.

Its the same as saying Srila Prabhupadas teachings are alive where his disciples are truly following his teachings. It has nothing to do with Institutions, churches or temples these are temporary items that may from time to time have true disciples within them that follow the teachings, they may also decide to abandon an Institution due to its inherent folly for power and wealth. The essence walks out the back door leaving those left to fight over power, wealth and amassing disciples. It has happend in GV tradition and in many other traditions RC included.

I am afraid all we can agree on is to disagree...

Pagansim was much closer to the practices of India, they worshipped the many gods (demi gods) and even had knowledge of establishing a relationship with the Divine Mother and Father. Their articles of worship contained incense, flame, flowers, water and cloth and at the heart of their teachings is self realization while acknowledging the existence of all living things, animals, mother earth and divine male and female principles. In Paganism is was up to each person to find their own path of self discovery there was no single sadhana process it was about internal meditation and self discovery. Even Constantine was a Pagan he simply saw Christianity as a better political option to draw a fragmented kingdom back together because of its militant dogmatism. After Constantine legalized Christianity it grew and then he made it the state religion. Some say he converted to it on his death bed others say it never happened. Once Christianity became the state religion thats when it sought to exterminate and dominate all other religions and spiritual processes. It was a perversely male centric religion that had only one male god deity, the church itself was as unbalanced as the religion itself, dominating and at times killing anything in its path that did not supports its own best interests. The world is a far better place for having these fools forced back into their dusty old churches away from political power (although they have not stopped trying to be political). Atleast now we can practise a spiritual path of our choice like Gaudiya Vaisnavism without the threat of imprisonment or being burnt alive at the stake. Not in all countries but in most.

VEDA if the RCs of old knew you were a practitioner of Gaudiya Vaisnavism you would be burnt alive at the stake, but in these modern times they would just call you a devil worshipper or a heretic. O.o

I spoke about the relationship of sanga and institution repeatedly, that I dont support corruption, etc. but you prefer to create one strawman after another. What can be done.

"forget about the church" is the strategy of asuras since they know that the power is in the sanga. They need useful idiots (as Lenin allegedly put it) to parrot this.

Repeating power wealth, power wealth without reading or understanding what I wrote about it makes you irrelevant for reasonable exchange.

Are the banks against the asuric agenda...?

"...they would just call you a devil worshipper or a heretic."
This is funny type of clairvoyance since all RCs I had a chance to present GV to appreciated it. To see a side by side comparison of GV, RC and protestantism is quite interesting for anyone.

VEDA>>"forget about the church" is the strategy of asuras since they know that the power is in the sanga. They need useful idiots (as Lenin allegedly put it) to parrot this.

Strawman you keep parroting, I said sanga is important but bricks and mortar and institutions are not, You keep getting confused between form and substance, it runs right through your threads.

If there was one iota of truth about what you speak in regards to the asuras they would have nuked Iskcon off the planet, there is no asura conspiracy, that is just the general trend of Kali Yuga and even by some very off chance there is an asura conspiracy, they must be laughing their sides off considering how useless the Vatican and all of its materialistic cronies have become, it sounds like a great comedy sketch! The Church needs people to believe all of that crap so people like you swallow their quazi religious nonsense hook, line, sinker and copy of the angling times! It keeps the Pope in a job and the bucks rolling in, its one of biggest cons of history. Telling people they are born into sin and are perpetual sinners, simply come to Catholic mass on a Sunday, pay your dues get absolved and go back to committing your sins Mon-Sat. Dont leave the Church or you will go to hell! Its the perfect business. They are not interested in true spiritual development, if RCs ever came to believe that they are better off without the Church (and many have) the party would be over for those materialists in robes. But they know most people are stupid, they have known that for nearly two thousand years.

The NWO is not an asura conspiracy as the RCs would have you believe is just greed concentrated into the hands of a few, known as the global bankers and as I said before its already here and the Vatican is as much a part of it as anyone else in fact they play both ends against the middle, one one hand they tell the pawns of the NWO and its evils and on the other hand they are investing and making money out of the same global banking system that they call NWO. Hypocrisy and Bigotry at its worst.

Even reincarnation has been deleted from earlier Christian thought which has many references to it in the Old Testament, but it is now considered heresy because like so much of their tampered religion its so full of contradictions and so much was added and deleted to support changing beliefs.

I say good luck to all Protestants, they could do no worse on their own in a forest contemplating the words of the bible than to pay for absolution and feed those fat, alcohol swilling, meat eaters who are convinced of their holiness!

VEDA>>This is funny type of clairvoyance since all RCs I had a chance to present GV to appreciated it. To see a side by side comparison of GV, RC and protestantism is quite interesting for anyone.

I am sure they did think it was quite interesting, they probably wont tell you what they really think. But what you are presenting is not the worship of Christ or the single male diety so in their eyes ultimately you are a confused heretic, no matter how interesting you make it sound for them.

Good luck with RCs Veda and watch out for those asuras they mostly come out at night...wearing Robes! 8-)

I think point by point reply would fall on deaf ears again and its OT.
Youve been duped by the propaganda so badly that you either dont see what I write or cant relate to it and consider it. No arguments, just povs on the level of tabloid. I speak from my experience, vastly different from this media parody. (The media certainly know their stuff.)

1779 It is important for every person to be sufficiently present to himself in order to hear and follow the voice of his conscience. This requirement of interiority is all the more necessary as life often distracts us from any reflection, self-examination or introspection:

Return to your conscience, question it. . . . Turn inward, brethren, and in everything you do, see God as your witness.51

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a6.htm

The Perils of Succession Heresies of Authority and Continuity In the Hare Krishna Movement

Tamal Krishna Goswami

Are these modern day gurus (i.e. Shiksa or Dhiksa) only saying what it is that you want to hear for fear of looking as though the messenger is not exactly "as it is" and is only doing exactly what was instructed? They become forced to water down THE philosophy and present their own philosophy which is more palatable to the masses? Like singing to the choir?
These  thoughts  after reading the findings of surveys done some years ago. I  now can appreciate the truth in it but would look for something a little more up to date to see where were heading.