Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

"Describing the incarnations and their symptoms, the Laghu-bhagavatamrta has stated that when Lord Krsna descends to conduct the creative affairs of the material manifestation, He is an avatara, or incarnation." (CC 1.5.83 p.)

"Sometimes they argue that Krsna is incarnation of Visnu. That is also truth. Youll find in Caitanya... Truth in this way, that when any incarnation comes, He comes through the Ksirobdhi-sayi Visnu. But Ksirobdhi-sayi is partial expansion of Krsna. The subject matter is very intricate, but if we follow the sastra and accept it, then some clear conception we can have." (SPL, CC Adi 1.7, Mayapur, March 31, 1975)

Giriraja: So at the end of the Krsna Book, when Krsna and Arjuna visit Lord Visnu and Visnu calls them incarnations of Himself, that is because Krsna appeared through Ksirodakasayi Visnu?
Prabhupada: Yes. This is acintya-bhedabheda, simultaneously one and different.
(morning walk, April 6, 1974, Bombay)

See also entry Svayam Bhagavan at Wikipedia.

Thank you for the quotes.

This is hard for me to understand tho. I know that mainstream "hindus" believe that Vishnu is the supreme is that all others are incarnations of Him. How would you explain this to them?

Please forgive me because somethings are hard for me to grasp and seem very abstract.

If one wants to present an argument, he could use Caitanya Mahaprabhus argument against Venkata Bhatta (CC Madhya-lila chapter 9) that although Lakshmi wanted the association of Krishna, she was unable to due the superiority of madhurya over aisvarya. He further explains that Shri Krishna has extraordinary qualities not possessed by Lord Narayana. Caitanya Mahaprabhu uses the same argument when speaking to Vallabha Bhatuc0u803 tu803 a in CC Antya-lila chapter 7. In both cases, it is worth noting the mention that Mahaprabhu preached in a joking way, and in jest, meaning that while He made his point regarding the supremacy of Shri Krishna, He did not try to smash them with the point. He used the same method with Murari Gupta - He made His point (which is based in sastra) but did not force it, and ultimately encouraged Murari Gupta in his devotion to Lord Rama. I think we need to keep this in mind when preaching to devotees of Vishnu - if someones devotional creeper is growing nicely, why disturb it?

A couple of verses spoken by Mahaprabhu worth posting here on this subject are:

(Madhya 9.146-147) "According to transcendental realization, there is no difference between the forms of Krishna and Narayana. Yet in Krishna there is a special transcendental attraction due to the conjugal mellow, and consequently He surpasses Narayana. This is the conclusion of transcendental mellows. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna, attracts the mind of the goddess of fortune, but Lord Narayana cannot attract the minds of the gopis. This proves the superexcellence of Krishna."

(Madhya 9.155) "There is no difference between the transcendental forms of the Lord. Different forms are manifested due to different attachments of different devotees. Actually the Lord is one, but He appears in different forms just to satisfy His devotees."

If you read and digest chapter 9 of Madhya-lila, Im sure you will gain a good insight in to how to approach these Hindus. Actually, I would call them Vaisnavas as they accept the supremacy of Lord Vishnu, whereas Hindus generally believe all the gods are equal.

Only Krsna in Vrindavan is the original Personality of Godhead, and He never sets foot outside Vrindavan. Krsna of Mathura, Krsna of Dvaraka, etc. are all incarnations of Lord Vishnu. Read the story of Akrura taking Krsna to Mathura for details.

Krishna is Known as Avatari, the source of all avatars. Though his descent as krishna in the material world is just classified as an avatar, however krishna was always in the spiritual world in his original form, SB canto one for more details...

This is a very nice topic and I am enjoying everyones responses very much. I find the responses very helpful and I pray that this topic continues. Thank you

HARE KRISHNA,KULA PAVANA
Once again you are the blind leading the blind.why does Lord Krishna say in the Bhagavad Gita that HE is the ORIGINAL Personality of Godhead and INFALLIBLE.
Am curious to know where you obtain your concocted information.
Contact me at "birball@yahoo.com",and we will discuss these matters and other matters.
Thanks
Leal
===

SRILA JIVA GOSWAMIS SANKALPA KALPADRUMA: PART ONE

Chapter One: Janmadi Lila. Lord Krishnas Birth and other Pastimes

12. Sri Krishna, the son of Nanda, who, although He hides from the Vedic
rituals and is not in the Vedic mantras, does happily appear before some
persons in this world....

226. ...who returned to Vraja, as the people of Dvaraka explained in the
prayer recorded in SB 1.11.9...("O lotus-eyed Lord, whenever You go away
to Mathura, Vrndavana or Hastinapura to meet Your friends and relatives,
every moment of Your absence seems like a million years. O infallible one,
at that time our eyes become useless, as if bereft of sun.")

227. ...who grants His auspicious presence to the people of Vraja
eternally, as is described in the Padma Purana, Uttara Khanda...

228. ...who, staying in Vraja, assumed another form and went to Dvaraka,
this action clearly recorded in the scriptures...

229. ...about who Uddhava said "Krishna will very soon return to Vraja" (in
SB 10.46.34), who must have returned to Vraja, for otherwise Uddhava would
have spoken a lie...

257. ...who said in the Brhad Gautamiya Tantra "I, the Supreme Personality
of Godhead, the master of all the demigods, never leave the forest of
Vrndavana...

258. ...who said in the Brhad Gautamiya Tantra "Millennium after
millennium I appear in Vrndavana and then again I disappear, Vrndavana
cannot be seen with material eyes"...

260. ...whose words "I never leave Vrndavana" may be interpreted in two
ways: either "I am always present in Vrndavana, even when it seems I have
left" or "If somehow I leave Vrndavana I always quickly return"...

261. ...who eternally stays in His two cities (Mathura and Dvaraka) as SB
10.1.28 explains "The city and district of Mathura are very intimately
connected with Krishna, for Lord Krishna resides there eternally"

266. ...killed Dantavakra on the open road, and then returned to live in
Vraja. King Nanda and the other people of Vraja went to Him like hungry
cakora birds gazing at the moon.

267. Seeing His father and the people of Vraja were withered and dry from
not having seen Him, Lord Krishna splashed them all with the nectar of His
presence. Pretending to stand with the hairs of their bodies erect, the
trees that were the cowherd people again and again sprouted new shoots of
joy.

268. Then Lord Krishna, showing the same features as before, approached the
doe-eyed gopis. Wondering whether Lord Krishna had actually come before
them, the gopis were bewildered, not bewildered, and bewildered again,
moment after moment.

269. As He entered Vraja the people offered arati to Him with many jewels,
showered Him with flowers, called out "Jai! Jai!" and greeted Him with
auspicious words.

270. Pleasing them with graceful and humble words, Lord Krishna gave His
association to the people of Vraja. Then, to shower His mother with
happiness, He quickly entered His home.

271. For a long time He pleased her. Then, with her permission He lay down
on a splendid bed and, surrounded by all His friends, slept at night.

272. Rising from bed, glorious Krishna brought great happiness to His
eternal friends. His lotus face blossoming with happiness, He began a
great festival of nectar for the bumblebee eyes of His friends.

273. Day after day the people of Vraja loved Krishna with a love greater
than before. Day after day they saw that Krishnas handsomeness was greater
than they had seen before.

274. Yearning to see King Nanda after some days, Lord Krishna took Rohini,
Uddhava, and many others and quickly went by chariot to Vraja.

275. Goddess Yogamaya created a Deity form of Krishna. The beautiful-eyed
gopis who yearned to marry Krishna worshipped that Deity with the honey of
their passionate love.

276. When Lord Krishna assumed a different form and went to the city of the
Yadavas, His original form was visible only to the people in the glorious
village of Vraja. O mind, please always think of that form of the gopa
Krishna.

In Caitanya Cariramrta (Antya 1.40 '96 71) we can also find the following story (translation is Prabhupadas):

In the province of Orissa there is a place known as Satyabhama-pura. Srila Rupa Gosvami rested for a night in that village on his way to Jagannatha Puri. While resting in Satyabhama-pura, he dreamed that a celestially beautiful woman came before him and very mercifully gave him the following order, "Write a separate drama about me," she said. "By my mercy it will be extraordinarily beautiful."
After having that dream, Srila Rupa Gosvami considered, "It is the order of Satyabhama that I write a separate drama for her. I have brought together in one work all the pastimes performed by Lord Krishna in Vrindavana and in Dvaraka. Now I shall have to divide them into two dramas."
Thus absorbed in thought, he quickly reached Jagannatha Puri. When he arrived, he approached the hut of Haridasa Thakura. Out of affectionate love and mercy, Haridasa Thakura told Srila Rupa Gosvami, "Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has already informed me that you would come here." [...]
On the next day, when Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu went to see Srila Rupa Gosvami, the omniscient Lord spoke as follows. Do not try to take Krishna out of Vrindavana, for He does not go anywhere else at any time:
"The Krishna known as Yadu-kumara is Vasudeva Krishna. He is different from the Krishna who is the son of Nanda Maharaja. Yadu-kumara Krishna manifests His pastimes in the cities of Mathura and Dvaraka, but Krishna the son of Nanda Maharaja never at any time leaves Vrindavana."

from http://vedabase.net/cc/antya/1/en

CC Antya 1.65: On the next day, when uc0u346 ru299 Caitanya Mahu257 prabhu went to see u346 ru299 la Ru363 pa Gosvu257 mu299 , the omniscient Lord spoke as follows.

CC Antya 1.66: "Do not try to take Kru803 su803 nu803 a out of Vru803 ndu257 vana, for He does not go anywhere else at any time.

CC Antya 1.67: "The Kru803 su803 nu803 a known as Yadu-kumu257 ra is Vu257 sudeva Kru803 su803 nu803 a. He is different from the Kru803 su803 nu803 a who is the son of Nanda Mahu257 ru257 ja. Yadu-kumu257 ra Kru803 su803 nu803 a manifests His pastimes in the cities of Mathuru257 and Dvu257 raku257 , but Kru803 su803 nu803 a the son of Nanda Mahu257 ru257 ja never at any time leaves Vru803 ndu257 vana."

After a long time here, some Krishna katha again. Thanks, Prabhu.

And it proves that ritviks dont know SPs books, though giving them a lip service.

this _is_ a nice topic, and IMO the admin should remove attempts to pull even this down to polemics. (including this post.)

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]After a long time here, some Krishna katha again. Thanks, Prabhu.

And it proves that ritviks dont know SPs books, though giving them a lip service.[/quote]

Instead of concentrating on Krsna-katha they concentrate on aparadha-katha and it shows. They will pull one sentence or even one word, and they will build their concoctions upon it, disregarding the Vaishnava standard of guru, sadhu, and shastra, demanding that other devotees pay attention to their theories and submit to their leadership. If you reject their ritvikvada they immediatelly see you as their enemy. I often feel sorry for them, because they are wasting their valuable energy on unproductive bickering.