Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

Guru is plural.

Last week at the BG discussion in the temple I had run into another devotee suggesting that Prabhupadas body was material after all. I had to correct him. However the question "do you see it" spiritual? How do you do it?

Such research is not within a range of pratyaksa and anumana. What remains is sastra caksu.

The external body is spiritualised not spiritual as in svarupa. Prabhupada gave the example of the deep sea diver and those funny metal suits they used to wear. So I think it is a case of the Nitya-siddha activating within the material realm something like that.

What about ur 2nd post. Did u change it?

Ysvt.

I think you are painfully avoiding the issue...

or just can not answer the question for yourself. (which is the truth?)

Since if you accept ritvik arguments, and since Prabhupadas has left his body, you have nothing to worry about do you? (no, I have not edited your post, and I do not edit my posts except to fix spelling and grammar mistakes - will you edit your post to change the obvious mistake that guru is plural? Change it to something like - guruh or gur'fcn:=)

Not wrong answer! No material ingredients,spiritualised not svarupa.

There is marble on the alter,we dont deny the marble.At the same time it is Krsna directly.

About which guru are you talking about Dave?

We actually dont think it is marble full stop.

"Even if you say that this is a marble statue, still K'e5'f1'eba is so powerful, omnipotent, that He can accept your service even through this marble. Actually, it is not marble."

Just to be sure - it is not marble (even if materialist sees it this way).

"In this connection the Padma Purana states, arcye visnau sila-dhir gurusu nara-matir vaisnave jati-buddhih . . yasya va naraki sah: "One who considers the arca-murti, the worshipable Deity of Lord Visnu, to be stone, the spiritual master to be an ordinary human being, and a Vaisnava to belong to a particular caste or creed is possessed of hellish intelligence." One who follows such conclusions is doomed."

"These rascals say patthar puje hari mile to me puju pahada. They think, hes such a rascal, hes thinking that the Deity is patthar or stone. But it is not like that."

"If anyone, the Deity in the temple, thinks, siladhih, stone and wood; vaisnave jati-buddhih, if anyone considers a Vaisnava under certain particular race or caste; gurusu nara-matih, if one considers guru as ordinary human being, then he is hellish. These are forbidden. We should know the arca-vigraha, the worshipable Deity, is Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself, present."

You are trying to apply anumana here, but you should take it as fact. (I know it is hard Dave, but this is required).

What about some purvapaksa, for the sake of discussion (as per the 2nd quote)?

Once I wrote: As far as the body nature of God as well as of great spiritualists is concerned, in Sanskrit its called durvibhavya (difficult to understand). See references at http://veda.harekrsna.cz/encyclopedia/avatars.htm

'97
Bombay
1 April, 1971
71-04-01
Sri Rameswar Dayalaji Birla
Birla House
Mt. Pleasant Road
Bombay-6
My Dear Rameswar Dayalaji Birla,
Please accept my greetings. I beg to inform you that the two pairs of Radha Krishna Deities have arrived in Bombay from Jaipur. So out of the four Deities, two of Krishna and two of Radharani, one Deity of Radharani is broken by the hand. So kindly do the needful for replacing this Deity and oblige.
Hoping this will meet you in good health.
Yours in the service of Lord Krishna,
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
ACBS/adb

Srila Prabhupada planned to fly to Nairobi immediately, and he wanted to carry large Radha-Krsna Deities with him. The Deities he had previously sent to Nairobi had been broken in shipping, so this time Prabhupada brought with him strong-bodied Madhudvisa Swami to carry the thirty-six-inch marble Deities. With special permission from the airlines, Prabhupada boarded, followed by Madhudvisa Swami, who held in his arms the one-hundred-pound Deity of Krsna. After setting Krsna in place beside Prabhup'e4das seat, Madhudvisa Swami left the plane and came back carrying Radharani.
Prabhupada passed most of the flight debating with Madhudvisa Swami, who took the position of the impersonalist. Prabhup'e4da would always defeat him. "This is how you become a preacher," Prabhupada said. "You must be able to take both sides of the argument and defeat your adversary. This is what Lord Caitanya would do." (SPL 5/38)

'93Yes, that is Lord Krishna'92s mercy,'94 Prabhupada says. '91We may choose to take it or not, but it'92s there. Krishna never deserts His devotees to the forces of maya. Na me bhaktah pranasyati. '91My devotee will never perish.'92 For hundreds of years, the Muslims tried to stamp out Krishna worship in Vrindaban, Mathura, Jagannatha Puri'97practically all of India'97but still it'92s going on, and the Muslim and British have come and gone. The potencies of the holy dham are greater than any mundane power. Of course, during Muslim times, the Deities had to be hidden, but this does not mean that They need our protection. The Muslims would break the Deities with sticks and then think, '91Oh, we have killed the Hindu God.'92 Of course, this is nonsense. Simply the marble was broken, not the Deity. Foolish men think of the Deity in a limited, mundane way. God manifests Himself in the Deity out of mercy for His devotee, but He is still present in His eternal abode, Vaikuntha, as well as in every atom of the creation. Krishna is all-powerful, His Deity form is indestructible, and His dham possesses all spiritual potencies. There might have been some damage to the temples, but generally the Muslims did not enter Vrindaban. They were afraid.'94 (Vrindaban Days 5)

I would not take exact words of Hayagriva Swami to be exact words that Prabhupada have said, but it seems we would rather discuss deity arca-vigraha, then the "directly spiritual" body of a guru. (thank god we are not discussing jati-buddhih - so much spread out these days...)

R u Misrepresenting what I said cc'a0
No one is trying to say that the Deity is merely marble.'a0

"Even if you say that this is a marble statue, still K'e5'f1'eba is so powerful, omnipotent, that He can accept your service even through this marble. Actually, it is not marble."

"He can accept your service even through this marble." At the same time it is actually not marble.'a0

Saying something is not marble is not the same as saying there is no marble

A little like acinya abheda bheda tattva. We do not deny or negate that 'a0it is a marble deity as opposed to a wooden deity or metal deity.'a0

We r not mayavada.'a0

'a0

SB 8.3.2

Arcye vi'f1'ebau 'e7il'e4-dh'e9'f9: everyone knows that the Deity in the temple is made of stone, but to think that the Deity is merely stone is an offense.

We dont deny or try to negate that a particular deity is made of stone but to think that the Deity is merely stone is an offence as stated.'a0

NOT WRONG ANSWER. Spiritualised,directly spiritual,not svarupa.

cc wrote - "WRONG ANSWER"

Lets us Take heed of maxim "fools rush in where Angels fear to thread"

Is it I who has wrong answer or is it u who has wrong or INSUFFICIENT UNDERSTANDING.

Lets see! ;-)'a0

Hare Krishna!

Dave, we do not take spiritual masters body spiritualised it is fully spiritual as per sastra and Prabhupada. I do not like your tone, you did not even offer your obeisances... dangerous... (((:-)

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]Dave, we do not take spiritual masters body spiritualised it is fully spiritual as per sastra and Prabhupada. I do not like your tone, you did not even offer your obeisances... dangerous... (((:-)[/quote]

The fact that we take spiritual masters body as fully spiritual is not to be confused with a pure devotee who has no material affection, due to his bodys being spiritualized like a red-hot iron in contact with fire.

It seems if you do not have a spiritual master you can not understand it. It does not work on previous acharyas, it is a specific view of a current guru requirement. (I think I am hitting it rather close to the nerve with you, so I just wanted to touch it a bit more to see where is a root of your affliction...)

Nonsense cc! U r just backpeddling again by trying to create red herring.

Ysvt.

http://krishna.org/does-the-spiritual-master-have-a-material-body-is-he-omniscient/

HK!

Sometimes doubts arise in the minds of neophytes about whether or not the spiritual master is liberated, and sometimes neophytes are doubtful about the bodily affairs of the spiritual master.
The point of liberation, however, is not to see the bodily symptoms of the spiritual master. One has to see the spiritual symptoms of the spiritual master.
jeevan-mukta means that even one is in the material body
(there are still some material necessities, since the body is material),
because one is fully situated in the service of the Lord, he/she should be understood to be liberated.
http://srimadbhagavatam.com/3/33/10/en

CHECK MATE! ;-)

Acarya-avatara Paramguru Srila Prabhupada ki jaya!!

Thank you for your frank confession that you are a neophyte and thus see bodily symptoms of the spiritual master (name to be confirmed at a later stage I guess). I am sorry to disappoint you, Srila Prabhupadas body IS fully spiritual, not just spiritualised, I guess you will need to come to the point of liberation for that, while for myself I see it only through the eyes of the scriptures (Dave, go to the attic, and please check you old chess books;-)

U know what I said cc,stop trying to twist things.

I said previously;

NOT WRONG ANSWER. Spiritualised,directly spiritual,not svarupa.

To not see bodily symtoms does not mean there r no so called bodily symtoms. Just like to say we r not the body does not mean there is no body.

We r not voidists.

Svarupa in Caitanya lila may differ to svarupa in Krsna lila... but anyway can you just confirm whom are you talking about here (in your own case). I honestly do not know any spiritual master who has bodily symptoms, that you do not see... (or you see but do not tell us) - (you can send me the name in an email if you are afraid that your ritvik friends will laugh at you=P

No cc, not seeing bodily symtoms is not synonymous with denying bodily symtoms.

TRY AND UNDERSTAND!

Ysvt.

HK!

Are you again talking abstract concepts? Try using your eyes of love..... I mean sastra-caksu... on an actual person. I am sure all devotees will have some bodily function, but have you accepted a devotee who has these functions, but for whom you not see them? (try not avoiding this question, you quite old already Dave, you are have been a devotee for like 15 years or more...=)

Have u edited u first post Cc?

Ysvt.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]Are you again talking abstract concepts? Try using your eyes of love..... I mean sastra-caksu... on an actual person. I am sure all devotees will have some bodily function, but have you accepted a devotee who has these functions, but for whom you not see them? ([b]try not avoiding this question[/b], you quite old already Dave, you are have been a devotee for like 15 years or more...=)[/quote] - Sure, we are talking about many gurus that you have? "Guru IS plural" (actually guruh is plural, guru is singular...) So let us list here, just to see if you are man of theory or of practice;-)
[br]
I have to be honest that I find Vedas initial comment very useful, but it seems you are just avoiding the real question for yourself, however painful it may be.

How are we defining spiritual here? As I understand it, spiritual means "for Krishnas pleasure." The spiritual masters body is spiritual because his bodily activities are meant for pleasing Krishna.

"The fact that we take spiritual masters body as fully spiritual is not to be confused with a pure devotee who has no material affection, due to his bodys being spiritualized like a red-hot iron in contact with fire"]

cc can u clarify the seeming nonsense u wrote above please.
Thanks.

Ysvt.

Why do you expect me to clarify something you call nonsense (except that you are a friend=) ???

One is definition of a pure devotee - whose senses are completely absorbed in the service of the Lord - comes from sevonmukhe hi jihvAdau svayam eva sphuraty adaH [Brs. 1.2.234].

this describes a process

completely different instruction is a simple prohibition

Arcye viSNu Sil'e4-dhIr guruSu nara-matir vaiS'ebave jAti-buddhiH. (incidently BBTi that did not give a reference to Padma Purana in Vedabase or in SB)

Full version and translation of this puranic sloka is:

arcye viuc0u7779 u7751 au u347 ilu257 -dhu299 r guruu7779 u nara-matir
vaiu7779 u7751 ave ju257 ti-buddhir
viu7779 u7751 or vu257 vaiu7779 u7751 avu257 nu257 u7745 kali-mala-mathane
pu257 da-tu299 rthe '92mbu-buddhiu7717
u347 ru299 -viu7779 u7751 or nu257 mni mantre sakala-kaluu7779 a-he
u347 abda-su257 mu257 nya-buddhir
viu7779 u7751 au sarveu347 vareu347 e tad-itara-sama-dhu299 r
yasya vu257 nu257 raku299 sau7717

'93One who thinks the deity in the temple to be made of wood or stone; who thinks of the body of the spiritual master in the disciplic succession to be material; who thinks a Vaishnava of the infallible Lord'92s belonging to a certain caste or creed; who thinks of carinamrita or Ganges water an ordinary water; who considers the mantra composed of the names of the Lord, which destroys all sins, to be a set of ordinary words; or who considers the Supreme Lord of all lords, Vishnu, to be equal to an ordinary human being'97is taken to be a resident of hell.'94

This is the check list of distinction between devotees and non-devotees; first sloka is a description of a process of liberation in bhakti marga, so many can be liberated, but they are not nessesarly your gurus, and you do not have to put thier pictures on the altar and worship them as divine.

I said seeming nonsense.

Here is Ananda Hari prabhus interesting view on the discussion;

"Seems a pointless argument, really cant see ccs problem with the difference between spiritualised and spiritual. Narada Muni = Spiritual body, can travell anywhere doesnt get old diseased etc. Srila Prabhupad when he was on planet with Spiritualised body which got old and diseased and heart attack. Difference between Srila Prabhupada and Narada Muni in terms of their eternal relationship with Krishna (not Kanea, lazy cut and paste from Vedabase) = ABSOLUTLY NONE, both are cent percent engaged in Krishnas service.
Reason Srila Prabhupadas body is in Samadhi is because we worship it as it is Spiritualised, this is not ordinary in anyway, perhaps it is a case for Acintyabhedabhedatattva.
on one level there is a difference but ultimately there is no difference.....
Anyway please please please do not bring my name into this. ys ah

He later give me permission after I bribed him with some Galubjamins! :)

ysvt.

What is interesting about it?

I would expect him speak about how he feels that the body of Srila Hridayananda Goswami is spiritual or spiritualized (american spelling dude:) There is no point in discussing body of a nitya-lila-pravista guru, obviously it is worshipable, question is how you see your guru, the guru who answers your questions and chastises you, the guru who speaks the mantra in your ear and if you can not repeat right, correcting you, how you see his body? Is it made out of material elements or not? (obviously question is not to you Dave... and not about Narada Muni)

In reply Ananda wrote->

Obviously his body is not Spiritual in the way that Narada Munis body is as it does get old and diseased, although HDG seems to be doing a great job at remaining healthy and being young for his age. The degree to which his body is Spiritualised depends on the degree to which he is a pure devotee, I am not qualified nor do I presume to be qualified to judge or asses this although I do know for a fact that he is closer to Srila Prabhupada than I am and this is good enough for me.

.

You seems to suggest that gurus body (for you) is made of material elements and because of it gets old. That is the way I imperfectly perceive it in the offencive state, while I have to accept it is an honest way, but according to Prabhupada it is offensive. He clearly states: "to think that the body of the spiritual master consists of material ingredients is offensive." (SB 8.3.2) I have to admit it is not uncommon, but one has to see spritual master as spiritual, just as one has to see Deity as not made of stone. Talking about faith, that takes faith in the omnipotency of Krishna.

Now one has to overcome offenses to chant purely. I can not say that I am free of the offences, and that is possibly why I asked the question. Thank you for sending in Anandas view. C U

A fully spiritual or spiritualised body can go through the mechanics of getting old like the mechanics of growth etc that does not mean it is composed of material ingredients.

Not wrong answer- Directly spiritual,not svarupa.

Like that.

Ysvt.

Well that could be an answer, if its not composed of material elements, I will not insist that gurus body is his svarupa, but it well may be his/her svarupa in Caitanya lila, lots of jiva-tattva gurus, who got old are worshiped in their Caitanya lila svarupa forms.

While another quote may help, I use it alot:

"One may argue that we may see a person who is spiritually engaged twenty-four hours a day but is still suffering from disease. In fact, however, he is neither suffering nor diseased; otherwise he could not be engaged twenty-four hours a day in spiritual activities. The example may be given in this connection that sometimes dirty foam or garbage is seen floating on the water of the Ganges. This is called n'e9ra-dharma, a function of the water. But one who goes to the Ganges does not mind the foam and dirty things floating in the water. With his hand, he pushes away such nasty things, bathes in the Ganges and gains the beneficial results. Therefore, one who is situated in the spiritual status of life is unaffected by foam and garbage-or any superficial dirty things."

And

"The spiritual master, or 'e4c'e4rya, is always situated in the spiritual status of life. Birth, death, old age and disease do not affect him. According to the Hari-bhakti-vil'e4sa, therefore, after the disappearance of an 'e4c'e4rya, his body is never burnt to ashes, for it is a spiritual body. The spiritual body is always unaffected by material conditions."

Prabhupada wrote it just a few weeks before departing from this world.

I was saying something like that all along you stupid fool!!

WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE??

Ysvt.

Happy Birthday to me!

1 year closer to DEATH. :-/

Gauranga!

Does your guru have a material body?

No. Everyones real and eternal, ultimate guru is Sri Caitya Guru in the heart. He has no material body, although He has the most attractive personal form. However, kanistha gurus and madyama gurus do have material bodies and an uttama guru is liberated and his body is spiritualized, should not be considered material.

[quote][cite] maah!:[/cite]kanistha gurus and madyama gurus do have material bodies.[/quote]
Thanks for your understanding which is on topic. Which sastra is it from (or is it from your head?)??

cc-) "Thank you for your frank confession that you are a neophyte and thus see bodily symptoms of the spiritual master (name to be confirmed at a later stage I guess). I am sorry to disappoint you, Srila Prabhupadas body IS fully spiritual, not just spiritualised, I guess you will need to come to the point of liberation for that, while for myself I see it only through the eyes of the scriptures (Dave, go to the attic, and please check you old chess books;-)"

I am sorry to disappoint you, Srila Prabhupadas body IS fully spiritual(svarupa!)not just spiritualised.

Cc,which Sastra is it from (or is it from ur head?)??

Thanks

Ysvt,Nrsinghadave.

Jaya Srila Prabhupada!

HK!

Rubbing it in Ki Jaya!! ;-)

Ysvt.

To date the following reference was used from Padma Purana:

arcye viuc0u7779 u7751 au u347 ilu257 -dhu299 r guruu7779 u nara-matir
vaiu7779 u7751 ave ju257 ti-buddhir
viu7779 u7751 or vu257 vaiu7779 u7751 avu257 nu257 u7745 kali-mala-mathane
pu257 da-tu299 rthe '92mbu-buddhiu7717
u347 ru299 -viu7779 u7751 or nu257 mni mantre sakala-kaluu7779 a-he
u347 abda-su257 mu257 nya-buddhir
viu7779 u7751 au sarveu347 vareu347 e tad-itara-sama-dhu299 r
yasya vu257 nu257 raku299 sau7717

'93One who thinks the deity in the temple to be made of wood or stone; who thinks of the body of the spiritual master in the disciplic succession to be material; who thinks a Vaishnava of the infallible Lord'92s belonging to a certain caste or creed; who thinks of carinamrita or Ganges water an ordinary water; who considers the mantra composed of the names of the Lord, which destroys all sins, to be a set of ordinary words; or who considers the Supreme Lord of all lords, Vishnu, to be equal to an ordinary human being'97is taken to be a resident of hell.'94

We can also quote"

prabhu kahe vaiu7779 u7751 ava-deha pru257 ku7771 ta kabhu naya
apru257 ku7771 ta deha bhaktera cid-u257 nanda-maya

'93The body of a devotee is never material. It is transcendental, full of spiritual bliss cid-u257 nanda.'94
(CC Antya.4.191) (Prabhupada quotes the above Padma Purana verse in the purport).

du299 ku7779 u257 -ku257 le bhakta kare u257 tma-samarpau7751 a
sei-ku257 le ku7771 u7779 u7751 a tu257 re kare u257 tma-sama

'93At the time of initiation, when a devotee fully surrenders unto the service of the Lord, Ku7771 u7779 u7751 a accepts him to be as good as Himself.

sei deha kare tu257 ra cid-u257 nanda-maya
apru257 ku7771 ta-dehe tu257 u7749 ra carau7751 a bhajaya

'93When the devotee'92s body is thus transformed into spiritual existence, the devotee, in that transcendental body, renders service to the lotus feet of the Lord.

Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur comments on CC verses in his Anubhu257 u7779 ya commentary: '93At the time of initiation, the devotee gives up material conceptions and starts to think in terms of sambandha-j'f1u257 na or his eternal relationship with Krishna and His family. As soon as he has this supramundane or spiritual knowledge, he becomes eligible to serve the Lord in a similarly spiritual identity. As soon as the surrendered devotee is free from the shelter of Maya, Krishna adopts him and makes him His own. At this stage, the devotee'92s delusion as enjoyer of material pleasures dissipates, and his real self merges with his new identity an eternal servant of Krishna. The devotee attains his spiritual body (sac-cid-u257 nanda-svaru363 pa) and his eternal service to Krishna, serving Him in his own transcendental form. The pure devotee'92s ecstatic service is an elevated stage of devotion that is often misinterpreted and misunderstood by those unacquainted with the science of devotion. For this kind of aparadha one is deprived of the shelter of a Vaishnava guru.'94
(Anubhu257 u7779 ya, CC, Antya 4.193)

Now you know Dave why you are deprived of the shelter of a Vaishnava guru...

Cc-) "It seems if you do not have a spiritual master you can not understand it. It does not work on previous acharyas, it is a specific view of a current guru requirement. (I think I am hitting it rather close to the nerve with you, so I just wanted to touch it a bit more to see where is a root of your affliction...)"

It seems that if one has a formal initiating spiritual master u cannot understand it. (Cc,I think I am hitting it rather close to the nerve with you, so I just wanted to touch it a bit more to see where is a root of your affliction...)"

Why did u remove ur 3rd post cc??

Ysvt.

Somewhat dishonest and cowardly to remove ur original 3rd post cc,imho. No need to try and deceive.

Ideally we should be willing to face our mistakes and any shortcomings. If not our surely our progress may be hampered. Everything like that should be seen as lessons in Vaisnava humility,isnt it?

In that spirit u must take my Prasada! ;-)

ysvt.

In Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.12.1-2), Lord Krsna Himself explains:

na rodhayati mam yogo
na sankhyam dharma uddhava
na svadhyayas tapas tyago
nesta-purtam na daksina

vratani yajnas chandamsi
tirthani niyama yamah
yathavarundhe sat-sangah
sarva-sangapaho hi mam

"My dear Uddhava, neither through astanga-yoga (the mystic yoga to control the senses), nor through impersonal monism or an analytical study of the Absolute Truth, nor through study of the Vedas, nor through practice of austerities, nor through charity, nor through acceptance of sannyasa, nor through many pious deeds, nor through giving daksina, nor through following vows, nor through performing many yajnas, nor through chanting Vedic hymns, nor through visiting holy places, nor through controlling the senses can one bring Me under his control as much as one can by associating with saintly devotees. Their association frees one from the touch of matter."

In Srimad-Bhagavatam (5.12.12), Jada Bharata explains:

rahuganaitat tapasa na yati
na cejyaya nirvapanad grhad va
na cchandasa naiva jalagni-suryair
vina mahat-pada-rajo-bhisekam

"My dear King Rahugana, unless one has the opportunity to smear his entire body with the dust of the lotus feet of great devotees, one cannot realize the Absolute Truth. One cannot realize the Absolute Truth simply by observing celibacy (brahmacarya), strictly following the rules and regulations of householder life, leaving home as vanaprastha, accepting sannyasa, or undergoing severe penances in winter by keeping oneself submerged in water or surrounding oneself in summer by fire and the scorching heat of the sun. There are many other processes to understand the Absolute Truth, but the Absolute Truth is only revealed to one who has attained the mercy of a great devotee."

atruc0u257 huu7717 -deu347 ika-sat-prasau7749 gasyu257 pu299 u347 a-hetukatvu257 t tad-anugraha eva mocakostu | u347 ubhu257 du7771 u7779 u7789 au7745 tu na tat-prasau7749 ga-hetuu7717 | tasyu257 pi tad-dhetukatvu257 t | sarvu257 ca pravu7771 ttir u299 u347 a-hetuketi, paru257 t tu tac-chruteu7717 [ve.su363 . 2.3.41] ity anena niru7751 u299 tam | tasmu257 d deu347 iku257 dy-anugrahasyu257 pi mukti-ku257 rau7751 atva-kalpanam ayuktam iti |

atrocyate-yadyapi deu347 iku257 der anugrahepu299 u347 a-hetukatvau7745 sambhu257 vyau7745 , tathu257 pi tebhyo dattu257 sti, atas teu7779 u257 m eva tatra svu257 tantryam | tair anugu7771 hu299 te tu jane sopi tam anupravartayatu299 ti sarvu257 u7751 i vu257 kyu257 ni su257 spadu257 ni syur vaiu7779 amyu257 dy-apanayau347 ceti

Here someone may object: The mercy of the spiritual master and the association of saintly devotees are both attained by the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore the real cause of liberation is His mercy. even good fortune does not happen independently. That also is caused by the Lords mercy. Indeed, all actions are caused by the Lords mercy, as was explained in su363 tra 2.3.39. Therefore it is not right to say that liberation is caused by the mercy of the spiritual master or by any cause other than the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

To this objection I reply: Even though they are themselves caused by the Lord Himself, still the spiritual masters mercy and the other causes like it are also causes of liberation in their own right. This was already explained in the passage beginning with su363 tra 2.3.40. The truth is that the Supreme Personality of Godhead becomes conquered by His devotees and He gives them the power to grant His own mercy to others. In this way the devotees are independent agents who can deliver the Lords mercy to others. When the devotees give their mercy to someone, then the Supreme Lord also gives His mercy to that person. In this way all seeming contradictions and the different passages of the scriptures are all resolved. (Baladeva Govinda Bhasya -3.24/33.51)

In Smu7771 ti-u347 u257 stra it is said:

guru-prasu257 do balavu257 n
na tasmu257 d balavattaram
tathu257 pi u347 ravau7751 u257 diu347 ca
kartavyo moku7779 a-siddhaye

"The spiritual masters mercy is most important. Nothing is more important. Still, in order to attain liberation one should certainly hear the glories of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and serve Him in many ways."

bhavati vicintya viduu7779 u257
niravaku257 ra guru-paramaparu257 nityam
eku257 ntitvau7745 sidhyati yayod-
ayati yena hari-tou7779 am

A discriminating person pleases Lord Hari by remembering the succession of bona-fide spiritual masters, all of whom are transcendental, this enable one to attain the perfection of unalloyed devotional service.

sat-sevuc0u257 guru-sevu257 ca
deva-bhu257 vena ced bhavet
dadaiu7779 u257 bhagavad-bhaktir
labhyate nu257 nyathu257 kvacit

If one engages in the service of the devotees and the spiritual master, considering them equal to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then he may attain the devotional service of the Lord. There is no other way in which this service may be obtained.

deva-bhu257 vena guru-sevu257 yathu257 taittiru299 yake
u257 cu257 rya-devo bhava. iti.

That one should also serve the spiritual master as the Supreme Personality of Godhead is confirmed in the Taittiru299 ya Upaniu7779 ad (1.10): "One should serve the spiritual master in the same way one serves the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself."

Iskcon Guru Vrnda Ki Jaya!

Acarya-avatara HDG AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Ki Jaya!

Ananta koti Vaisnava vrnda ki jaya!

GAURANGA!! :o)

I have just heard a recording of a lecture at Govardhana retreat with a nice explanation on how to resolve this question and see it - it is a subjective qualification of the disciple. The speaker quotes HBV by Sanatana Goswami:

avidya va savidya va gurureva janarddanah
marga-stho vapy amarga-stho gurur eva param gatih (sometimes they say satam gatih in the same sloka;-)

And describes it as a laksanam (qualification of the disciple) not guru-laksanam.

How can you say he is avidya or amarga-stho and still consider him as good as God? Because he is giving you Krsna.

"The Absolute alone may communicate His service to the separable constituents of Himself. This is the real nature of the function of the guru."
Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura

(note this quote, Sacinandana Maharaja interrupted the speaker and asked him to repeat it so that he can write it down).

Who was the speAker,is there a link for the class?

Ysvt.

Is there an exact reference availiable for HBV quote?

Ysvt.

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]Is there an exact reference availiable for HBV quote?

Ysvt.[/quote]

Whether ignorant or learned, the guru is Janardana. Whether situated on the
path or not, he is ever the goal.

From Aditya-purana as quoted by Srila Sanatana Gosvami in Hari-bhakti-vilasa
4.359.

.
"A neophyte Vaishnava or a Vaishnava situated on the intermediate platform (second-class devotee) can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance." - Nectar of Instruction 5, Purport

.
http://therealexplanation.org/article/on_sufficient.html
.

The madhyama-adhikaris gladly tolerate these disturbances and by the mercy of Krsna never deviate from the service of Hari. Since the madhyama-adhikaris position is more fixed than the neophytes, who are prone to fall down, they cannot be threatened by persons who averse to Hari. The madhyama-adhikaris realize that the Lord is situated in their hearts. As caitya-guru in the heart of the devotees, Lord Krsnacandra attracts them, considering them His own. By the mercy of Hari, the spiritual master, and the Vaisnavas, the madhyama-adhikaris attain complete transcendental realization. In ordinary language this is called self-realization.

BSST in- Brahmana and Vaisnava

it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance." - Nectar of Instruction 5, Purport

" mercy of *Hari*, the *spiritual master*, ***and*** *the Vaisnavas*"

"The Nectar of Instruction was exceptional. Srila Prabhupada dictated it to disciples who took down his words longhand." (JaS -- http://www.jswami.info/editing_truth/writing)

A neophyte devotee does not serve Vaisnavas and an advanced devotee does not think that some persons are Vaisnavas and others are not.

Therefore it is only the intermediate devotees who honor and serve Vaisnavas.

An intermediate devotee must serve the three kinds of Vaisnavas: 1. he who once chants the holy name of Lord Krsna, 2. he who always chants the holy name of Lord Krsna, and 3. he who, simply by being seen, makes others chant the holy name of Lord Krsna.

Thus Vaisnavas should be served according to the degree of their advancement, whether they are a good Vaisnava, a better Vaisnava, or the best Vaisnava.

No one can judge who is a good Vaisnava and who is an intermediate Vaisnava. Only an advanced Vaisnava can understand that. If an intermediate (madhyama) Vaisnava tries to say this, he will commit an offense.

- Bhativinode Thakur, Jaiva Dharma - ch 8

*Uttama bhakta (and Bhakta Dave) ki jay!!!* [edited]

In Skanda Purana it is said:

purvam krtva tu sammanam
avajnam kurute tu yah
vaisnavanam mahi-pala s
anvayo yati sanksayam

"O ruler of the world, one who first respects a Vaishnava and then later insults him is vanquished along with his family."

"By the mercy of Hari, the spiritual master, and the Vaisnavas, the madhyama-adhikaris attain complete transcendental realization."

Yes the Madhyama attains complete transcendental realization and sufficient Uttama stage.I heard!

ysvt

Personally we understand ourselves at this time to be Madhyama-adhikaris. We have taken intiation from a bona fide spiritual master and are engaged in worshiping the Deity. If we look at the last paragraph in Text Five of Upadesamrta Prabhupada explains that a Madhyama-adhikari can accept disciples but in the perspective of an Uttama-adhikari-guru. So, that is the kind of Diksa-guru we are. We give names, beads, promises on the authority of the Founder Acharya of ISKCON Srila Prabhupada. Everyone of our Disciples should accept Srila Prabhupada as a Guru.

Who is the Diksa-guru, you or Prabahupada?
Answer depends on what you mean by Diksa guru. If you mean the person who chants on the beads and gives the name and makes the promise with his own lips that by chanting your prescribed number of rounds you are guaranteed to advance to the highest platform of Uttama-adhikari, then we are the Diksa-guru. If you take Diksa-guru as that person who makes the contract with Krsna, then it is Prabhupada. Quoting what we'92ve heard from Prabhupada if you engage in devotional service it will all be very clear. Its practically clear to us. We are trying to not eclipse Prabhupada, but we are also offer a facility on this authority.

What happens if a Disciple falls down?
Unless you are chanting 16-nice rounds, and that means Mangala-arati and Srimad Bhagavatam and Sankirtana and practical relation with ISKCON; and following the 4-principles strictly then we cannot function as your Diksa-guru, representative to Srila Prabhupada and the Guru-parampara. If you want we can certainly try to serve you as Vartmana-pradarshika-guru again and get you back on the path and then we can be Disksa guru again. Don'92t cheat yourself.

Srila Prabhupada talks about Guru-tattwa again and again in his books, but the main thing is just our sincerity to serve Srila Prabhupada. We are following Srila Prabhupada and therefore we are going back to Godhead. Anybody who follows us, following Srila Prabhupada is also going back to Godhead, and the same is true for people following people following us.

You have to work out these these to a practical level to chant good rounds, follow the principles and engage in sankirtana and then gradually guru-tattwa will become clearer and clearer to you.

3. ISKCON Formalitys. You must chant 16 nice rounds and follow the four regulative principles strictly, rising by 1-1/2 hours before sunrise, mangala arati, kirtan, reading Prabhupadas books, practical relationship with ISKCON authorities and sankirtan for six months. Then with approval of your Temple President or other ISKCON authority you can become a Formal Aspirant. Six months more of the same thing and you can take initiation.

4. Guru Fallsdown. Question: Guru is described as a god, an absolute authority, but we see in ISKCON that many of our gurus falldown. How can we understand that? How can he be Absolute if he falls down?

HpS: As far as we understand he'92s absolute because he told you that he might fall down. If he'92s madhyama-adhikari then he most likely won'92t fall down from devotional service but he might have some accidental falldown into bad activties. '94api cet suduracaro, bhajate mam ananya bhak'94 (BG): Even an '93ananya bhak'94, very fixed devotee can falldown, not just into '93duracaro'94, bad acts, but into '93suduracaro'94, abominable acts, but he may still '93sadhur eva samantavyaha'94, internally a sincere, saintly devotee. He may feel very, very bad about his accident.
Personally I tell people that this is my position. I am a madhayama-adhikari. For considerable time I an undeviating in chanting my rounds, following principles, mangala-arati, sankirtana etc. but considering the history of our Western Godbrothers its not a question of if I will falldown, it seems more likely that I will falldown. Maybe some special mercy for the most fallen we'92ll be able to avoid that, God help us, but if we do then we plan to get back up in a wonderful way.
We Westerners come from abominable backgrounds so if there is accidental falldown into bad activities then it may not be too surprising. Just like a child, he loses control of his senses sometimes and crys, but nobody takes it too seriously. With a little help he gets back in line and is wonderful again.
Srila Prabhupada is our standard. We are trying to help him.

make the mind restless. One should focus more on his own standard. So, give the discussion a rest and work on your own advancement.

Hare Krishna!!

From Hanumat Presak swami

Rasikananda, Nityananda, Shyamananda (Prabhus) all gave up renounced order and got wifes to be acharyas. Not without a smile -- but it seems to be club of a few sannyasis that made married man or married sannyasi look fallen. Prabhupada was not one of those. He married his sannysi disciples, there are videos of him doing it. Historically only married man would be diksa gurus, not because they are uttama adhikaris, but because they are very stable in the face of worship. In fact Srinivasa Acarya was asked to get married if he was to become an acharya. We should ask ourselves why was the system changed and what is the visible result? Why for example Jayatirtha and Bhagavan had to take sannyas, if Prabhupada was happy for them to initiate disciples on their own when they were wearing white? Why both leading disciples of BSST had to take sannyas after he left the planet, he never asked them to do it. Basically where is the assumption came from that initiating guru/acharya should be paramahamsa-sannyasi? Why do we continue on the same road and keep judging others as madhyama or uttama?

ccd: See elaboration in Govinda Bhasya 3.4.48-49

bhiksa-bhujas ca ye kecit
parivrad brahmacarinah
te py atraiva pratisthante
garhasthyam tena vai param

"Sannyasis, brahmacaris, and all others who eat the food of begging depend on the grhasthas. Therefore the grhastha-asrama is the best of asramas."

brahmacaryam samapya grhi bhavet, grhinam bhutva vani bhavet, vani bhutva pravrajet, yadi vaneratha brahmacaryad eva pravrajet grhad va vanad va | atha punar avrati va vrati snatako vasnatako votsan nagnir anagniko ya yad ahar eva virajyet tad ahar eva pravrajet [ja.u. 4]

"When one completes his studies as a brahmacari, a man should become a grhastha. After he has been a grhastha he may become a vanaprastha. After he has been a vanaprastha he may become a wandering sannyasi. Or, leaving brahmacari life he may at once become a wandering sannyasi. Or, leaving grhastha life he may directly become a sannyasi. Or, leaving vanaprastha life he may become a sannyasi. They who have followed vows or not followed vows, become a snataka or not become a snataka, carefully kept the sacred fire, or not kept.

ity adina | uttaratra ca paramahamsanam ity adina nirapeksas ca pathyante

In the Jabala Upanisad passage beginning with the words "paramahamsanam", the nirapeksa devotees are specifically described.

tasmat grhasthenopasamhrtir dharma-bahulyad eveti susthuktam yad aher evety adina

When the grhasthas are singled out it is because the duties of the other asramas are all contained in the grhastha-asrama.

virage sati grha-tyaga-vidhanad visesad upasamharatma tatparya-kalpanam ca nirastam

Still, the Upanisad clearly says, "On the day one turns with distaste from the world, on that day one should become a wandering tyagi."

anuraga-viragau hi grharambha-tat-tyagayor hetu sarvatrabhilapyete | tad evam yatharham sama-damoparati-bhusanesu nirasramesu ca vidyabhyudetiti nirupitam

Whether one still has material desires or one has lost all taste for material things determines whether one should accept the grhastha or the tyagi. Still, when a person has peacefulness, self-control, tolerance, and other virtues, he may be within the varnasrama-dharma, or he may be above varnasrama-dharma, he will certainly attain transcendental knowledge.

So tyagi is there VEDA as a stage of life (optional) but where is the requirement for sannyasi (or tyagi) to be an acharya?

"Sometimes in autumn the falls come down from the top of the hill to supply clean water, and sometimes they stop. Similarly, sometimes great saintly persons distribute clear knowledge, and sometimes they are silent". - Krishna Book ch. 20

"A devotee who places full faith in the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who makes friendship with the pure devotees, who shows favor to the innocent person, and who avoids those who are atheistic or are against devotional service--such a devotee is called a second-class pure devotee." - Teachings of Lord Chaitanya (Original Edition, Ch. 11)

"Here is the remedy for eliminating all inauspicious things within the heart which are considered to be obstacles in the path of self-realization. The remedy is the association of the Bhagavatas. There are two types of Bhagavatas, namely the book Bhagavata and the devotee Bhagavata. Both the Bhagavatas are competent remedies, and both of them or either of them can be good enough to eliminate the obstacles." - Srimad Bhagavatam 1.2.18, Purport

ccd: My understanding from your last quoted sentence is that acarya can be in any asrama.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]ccd: My understanding from your last quoted sentence is that acarya can be in any asrama.[/quote]
Even the quote does not speak about guru/acharya lets take it, it is also an instruction given by Prabhupada.
[br][br]
However be your guru a woman, a grihastha or a tyagi, in any case one needs to exercise mental control and not to see material dealings of guru in a way that will make you think that he has a material body.

[br][br]There is however no reference suggesting that ONLY a paramahamsa sannyasi can be an acharya.[br] [br]There is also no source suggesting that gurus body can be seen as material but spiritualised.[br][br] There is also no instruction from Prabhupada suggesting that he is the end of production line, ie the last acharya or anything like that. Just yesterday I heard his address in CA, he clearly said "my guru maharaja was number 10, I am number 11 and you will be number 12." There are not excuses to change this. [br][br]

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][br] There is also no instruction from Prabhupada suggesting that he is the end of production line, ie the last acharya or anything like that. Just yesterday I heard his address in CA, he clearly said "my guru maharaja was number 10, I am number 11 and you will be number 12." There are not excuses to change this. [br][br][/quote]

You clearly heard that? Strangely enough, I couldnt find any such quote searching the Internet. What I instead found published in several places was this: "Now, tenth, eleventh, twelfth. My Guru Maharaja is tenth from Caitanya Mahaprabhu, I am eleventh, you are the twelfth. So distribute this knowledge.'94 (Srila Prabhupada Arrival Lecture, 18/5/72, Los Angeles). It would seem that you "clearly" heard what you wanted to hear, not what Srila Prabhupada said.[br][br]

TFO says this about Srila Prabhpuadas statement: "The first quote clearly mentions that Srila Prabhupada'92s disciples are already the twelfth '96 you are the twelfth. Thus this is not some authorisation for them to become diksa gurus in the future, but merely a statement that they are already carrying on the message of the parampara." [br][br]You have "refuted" their argument and imposed your preferred meaning by changing what Srila Prabhupada said. Very clever.
[br][br]
The TFOs view, that he was talking about siksa gurus, is supported not only by Srila Prabhupadas use of present tense in referring to his disciples as "the twelfth." He immediately follows that by saying "So distribute this knowledge." That is clearly an instruction pertaining to siksa, with no mention of diksa.

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite] siksa, with no mention of diksa.[/quote]
Siksa is more important then diksa. Even diksa gurus do not have a material body, what to speak of siksa gurus!

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite] siksa, with no mention of diksa.[/quote]
Siksa is more important then diksa. Even diksa gurus do not have a material body, what to speak of siksa gurus![/quote]

That may be (presuming the siksa is pure); but then dont change the siksa to support rubber-stamped or unauthorized diksa gurus. [br][br]

It makes me wonder... Did Satsvarupa try to have sex with his married (to someone else) disciple using his spiritual body? Did Param Gati Swami propose a homosexual encounter with his disciple with his spiritual body? etc. etc. etc.[br][br]

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][br] There is also no instruction from Prabhupada suggesting that he is the end of production line, ie the last acharya or anything like that. Just yesterday I heard his address in CA, he clearly said "my guru maharaja was number 10, I am number 11 and you will be number 12." There are not excuses to change this. [br][br][/quote]

You clearly heard that? Strangely enough, I couldnt find any such quote searching the Internet. What I instead found published in several places was this: "Now, tenth, eleventh, twelfth. My Guru Maharaja is tenth from Caitanya Mahaprabhu, I am eleventh, you are the twelfth. So distribute this knowledge.'94 (Srila Prabhupada Arrival Lecture, 18/5/72, Los Angeles). It would seem that you "clearly" heard what you wanted to hear, not what Srila Prabhupada said.[br][br][/quote]
What I take is that ritviks and whoever can not understand this principles maintain, that physical actions of the guru is something a disciples should look as material. It is too easy to make a statue into a guru, and it is easier to see sannyasi as a guru who has no material body. However unlike some, Prabhupada had a family, a lot of kids and even met with them not long before passing away. Now question is how do you see bodily offsprings of Prabhupada, obviously they are ether ignored or you have to see it according to scriptures. I have no doubt that being an acharya for Prabhupada would be possible even when he was not sannyasi and was having kids. Anyone will say that he was not qualified to be an acharya because he had a lot of kids?
[br][br]
How well you know Prabhupada. How many sons did he have? How many have survived him after his disappearance? What disabilities some of them may have had? [br][br]

While knowing this one should still see him as transcendental guru, how can you do that (if you were his direct disciple)? Would you want to be direct disciple when he was a family man?

What I get from this is that it is easier to deify a person for a neophyte if that persons appearance in the everydays life of the disciple is minimized, if he is remote and does not do much that can be seen as material. The facts must be ignored, like the fact that Prabhupadas wife had a child when she was 14yo. This has to be erased or overlooked, in order for a disciple to see the body of the spiritual master as fully spiritual.

It is exactly the siksa element, vani, that takes precedence, the instructions, not behavior, and even that is adjusted to emphasize the vani element.

While using the eyes of the scriptures, disciple can discount apparent inconsistencies on the strength of the fact, that Krsna is actually responsible for all and every action and there is absolutely nobody who can act independently of His will, directly as for a devotee or indirectly as in case of non-devotee. Even no blade of grass moves without the will of Krsna.

If representative of Krsna states that body of guru is fully spiritual - I take it literary, can I accept it? On his and sastras authority, not because I can prove it otherwise.

[quote]
While knowing this one should still see him as transcendental guru, how can you do that (if you were his direct disciple)? Would you want to be direct disciple when he was a family man?[/quote]

I am not expecting Pandu or Dave answering this one. It is kind of rhetorical question. While the persuasive effect may depend on the honest reply.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]What I get from this is that it is easier to deify a person for a neophyte if that persons appearance in the everydays life of the disciple is minimized, if he is remote and does not do much that can be seen as material. The facts must be ignored, like the fact that Prabhupadas wife had a child when she was 14yo. This has to be erased or overlooked, in order for a disciple to see the body of the spiritual master as fully spiritual.

[/quote]

I am not suggeting here that His Divine Grace had ever been engaged in '93duracaro'94, bad acts, or '93suduracaro'94, abominable acts, rather that for a disciple some of it will be hard to take as purely spiritual. But it has to be. (Am I repeating myself?)

Interestingly in the same mood, Prabhupada confirmed to his disciples, that they had to cut out the family members of childhood photo of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura. He said to reproduce only his face and not any other family members in our books.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]What I get from this is that it is easier to deify a person for a neophyte if that persons appearance in the everydays life of the disciple is minimized, if he is remote and does not do much that can be seen as material. The facts must be ignored, like the fact that Prabhupadas wife had a child when she was 14yo. This has to be erased or overlooked, in order for a disciple to see the body of the spiritual master as fully spiritual.

[/quote]

I am not suggeting here that His Divine Grace had ever been engaged in '93duracaro'94, bad acts, or '93suduracaro'94, abominable acts, rather that for a disciple some of it will be hard to take as purely spiritual. But it has to be. (Am I repeating myself?)[/quote]

Taken in isolation it looked like you were suggesting sinful behavior by Srila Prabhupada, but in the context it was clear you were not.[br][br]
[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote]
While knowing this one should still see him as transcendental guru, how can you do that (if you were his direct disciple)? Would you want to be direct disciple when he was a family man?[/quote][/quote]

Its much too hypothetical to answer. I can somewhat imagine what Srila Prabhupada was like then based on what little I know, but what would I have been like? That, I have no idea.

Actually having just read the previous several articles and personal revelations of Pandu das and ccd,it dawns on me how impersonal our devotees are?Western devotees have obviously been brought up in small nuclear families,where selfishness ,personal and group reins supreme..While these are naturally suitable for those who like the quietness and everything in its placesurroundings ,that is not the norm in large asian familiy groups.Where grand parents,lots of siblings,cousins ,loud neighbours and uncles and endless aunties abound and are extremely vibrant..Just where do they all come from?how they seem to exist almost just to bombard one constantly.?Except that this is very much part of the indian atmosphere and environment.Which is also similar to my maori and samaon family scene.In vedic culture girls are married before puberty,as virgins so that they remain as saintly women their whole lives if possible,while married to the one man.When ccd comments how it should be ignored that Srila Prabhupadas wife had a child at 14 years,i am aghast at the small mindedness.However she is finding fault where none exists.

Such small mindedness verges on blaspheme of srila Prabhupadas heritage and way of life,his fathers personal choices and culture whom srila Prabhupada considered a pure vaishnava,After all it was indeed his farther who arranged his marriage.....According to my wife,who is a humble devotee of some genuine ten years devotional life,ccd should become properly acquainted with vedic culture and the superior purity especially of the vaisnavi.

The disciple is blessed especially by his spiritual master,hence embued with that natural bhakti....devotional love it is indeed very natural to see the wonderful qualities of ones guru everywhere in ones everyday life.Just like in the last days of srila Prabhupadas earthly existence my guru, tamala krishna goswami served him very intimately.So much so that srila Prabhupada commented that at any other time he would of found their service an invasion.
However it was dependent on him,srila Prabhupada to perform the last service the guru should do for his beloved disciples.That is how to die properly.......How to be fearless and hopefully ecstatic in the last moments.To embrace sri Krishna as kalasamvara......the lord of time in that service to his followers.So how can a sincere disciple see his guru any other way....?Like a farther who has to wash his beautiful young baby daughter....after she has wet her nappies?Although a mandane example ,it is sweet and lovingly performed by the farther.Even the parents , they receive a rasa to serve the child.What to speck of thetranscendental higher taste the sincere disciple receives from ones guru, that how can one possibly see the gurus service ,his body and paraphenalia....ect as mundane?

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]The disciple is blessed especially by his spiritual master,hence embued with that natural bhakti....devotional love.[/quote]
It could be a language barrier, but it seems you misunderstood me, sorry for that. What about you personally, with your diksa guru, do you take his body made out sat-cit-ananda or is it made out of maha-bhuta elements, but is spiritualised?

Thakura Bhaktivinoda'92s Dasa-mula-tattva further explicates the issue:

'93In both forms of sadhana-bhakti (vaidhi and raga) guru is required. In vaidhi-bhakti-sadhana, according to the aspirant'92s level of spiritual taste (ruci), the guru will give necessary instructions on how to vanquish anarthas by following scriptural injunctions. Then again, the guru will guide the raganuga-bhakti-sadhaka on the path of rasa, spiritual relish, according to the disciple'92s intrinsic spiritual tendency.

The guru must analyze the disciple'92s natural tendency and establish his innate lobha (greed) for one of the four rasas - dasya, sakhya, vatsalya or madhurya. Having determined his innate lobha, the guru schools him with pertinent instructions. Otherwise, left to himself, the disciple will stumble along as an unauthorized intruder into the path of rasa and his lobha and bhava will never reach steadiness. It is not that everyone must be sadhakas of madhurya rasa. The guru who is unable to determine his disciples innate lobha, should, without duplicity, express his inability and send his disciple to an eligible bona-fide guru conversant in this science of rasa. For the sadhaka disciple, it is a spiritual catastrophe if he is without the shelter of a bona-fide highly qualified guru.

If good fortune visits a living entity and he meets a pure devotee who is a recipient of Sri Caitanya'92s boundless mercy then that fortunate soul will certainly develop attraction and greed for the spiritual sentiments that adorn the eternal residents of Vraja. As long as a living entity does not meet a pure devotee of this stature, he will remain on the level of vaidhi bhakti, regulative devotional service. But, as soon as the practitioner, under superior guidance, takes shelter of Sri Caitanya'92s lotus feet, he becomes elevated to the path of raga-bhakti, spontaneous devotional service.'94

http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/10-09/editorials5208.htm

Jaya Aindra Babaji!

It is imperative, therefore, that the progressive implementation of high grade devotional illumination be fostered by the beneficent influence of truly elevated rasika-vaisnavas for the forward march of a movement intended to distribute the fruits of love of Godhead (vraja-prema). It is not that Srila Prabhupada'92s sankirtana mission precludes the prospects of pursuing the path of raga, nor is it that legitimate institutional leadership is the monopolized prerogative of the religio-corporate power elites and ecclesiastically rubberstamped guru figureheads. We cannot rubberstamp paramahamsas. Indeed, as only the maha-bhagavata truly has the fitness to bestow suddha-nama upon anyone, without receiving which a disciplic candidate could hardly hope to make much tangible spiritual progress in this age of Kali, it is the paramahamsa-maha-bhagavata alone who viably stands as a comprehensive representative of all our Srila Prabhupada and the acarya-parampara have to offer. We must always remember - It is not that authority constitutes truth. Truth constitutes authority. That is guru-parampara.

"They who prefer to bend, water down, compromise, or obscure the truth to suit various inveigling materially conceived managerial agenda on the plea of propagating the Krishna consciousness movement are not truthful Brahmins, what then of being paramahamsa Vaishnavas. It is disgraceful to remain a fallible neophyte. It is not enough that children pretend to be adults ad nauseum on the plea of perpetuating the sampradaya. Sand-box make-believe-world half-baked mud-pie '93Krishna consciousness'94 will not do. Vaidhi bhakti, though useful to a limit, is like licking the outside of a jar of honey."

Dear ccd ,my guru has left this world ,however his divine grace tamala krishna goswami had a transcendental body ,though made of matter it was fully fused with the kladhini shakti.Hence as sincere followers of radharani we should look to the wonderful service attitudes of vaisnavas and their successful preaching results.

Dear nrsingha,having just read your eulogy of a rasika devotional vision i sadly am visited by the facts that the previous propounders of such sentment have insulted and tried to blaspheme and down grade our AC Bhaktivedanta swami achievements and reputation while being sadly unqualified themselves. They chose cheap short cuts and tried to steal iskcon as a whole by arrogantly reinitiating his disciples by subterfuge.Such rasika rasa sentiment fails to impress those of us who are indeed experienced.Our unique Worldwide movement Iskcon was infact generally spread by a combination of householders,bramacaris and sannyasis though many times naive and uninformed were qualified because they had complete faith in their spiritual master his divine grace AC BhAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI Prabhupada.Your emphasis on rasika devotees wears thin on myself because though it is indeed glossy and appealing,my old godbrothers who have jumped the iskcon ship have become useless and stopped their progressive march back to godhead.One openly proffessed to me that his ISKCON diksa guru was indeed the best of a bad bunch.

Such ungrateful sentiments and low class behaviour by my freind ,not intune with his excuses why he had chosen to be re-initiated though his guru was in good standing.Though your rhetoric appears imposing it it is truly lacking because practically iskcon is a worldwide movement ,while the gaudiya math representatives are barely able to secure small preaching foot holds unless they steal iskcon devotees, sadly this is the real situation.....it appears to just be floss in reality.Thus your alien mood is not the mood of our Founder Archarya therefore iskcon devotees should reject such flimsy claims.As Srila AC bHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI Prabhupada was prone to say you can tell somethings preaching worth by the results it practically achieves.

Yes,I agree with u Govinda prabhu. Would not like to propound the ideas of neo GM. Just posting Bhaktivinoda Thakar and HG Aindra prabh.

Iskcon Guru vrnda Ki Jaya!

Acarya-avatar ki jaya!

Ysvt.

Please accept my humble obeisances nrsingha prabhu....your servant....and wellwisher

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]...his divine grace tamala krishna goswami had a transcendental body ,though made of matter it was fully fused with the kladhini shakti.[/quote]

I never met TKG nor have I studied his life in detail, but I cant help but wonder about this. Many have claimed their gurus to be a pure devotees, sometimes ignoring contradictory evidence even to the point of ridiculousness. How do you know your assessment is not skewed by sentimentalism?

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite][quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]...his divine grace tamala krishna goswami had a transcendental body ,though made of matter it was fully fused with the kladhini shakti.[/quote]

I never met TKG nor have I studied his life in detail[/quote]

I appreciate your answer Sri Govinda prabhu, thank you for being our well wisher.[br][br]

It is obvious for me that for someone to chant the name that is not material, one has to be transcendental. A devotee is already in a transcendental position. According to sastra anyone who receives the holy name at initiation or gives you the transcendental knowledge must be transcendental, in order to do this function, but I appreciate you sharing your realisation; we discussed it a bit on our BG study group yesterday - appreciation of other and senior devotees seems to be a symptom of spiritual health. Lord Krsnas name, fame, pastimes, cannot be understood by material senses. Only to one who is engaged in pure devotional service under proper guidance is He Himslef revealed. ysccd

Well my Pandu das we are actually part of a siksa line,diksa is necessary however, srila Bhaktisiddanta has highlighted and encouraged his particular vision of our sampradaya especially since the time of Jaganatha das babaji.Nourishment has been not necessarily just limited by the diksa component.His uniquely glorious guru gaurakisore das babaji refered to his disciple srila bhaktisiddhanta saraswati as his guru......Prabhu......with opportune moments to personally witness such a devotionally ecstatic personality , srila bhakti siddanta felt compelled to demand diksa even at the cost of his own body and life.Hence inspiration and nourishment are self evident according to the supreme will of krishna and your individual sincerity.Such an incredible hunger for the blessings of gaurakisore das babaji was awakened within srila Bhaktisiddanta his disciple,that he felt there was infact no further use or purpose to himself unless he became blessed by gaurakisore das babaji.Though i personally was not so blessed in my own devotional life ,i still experienced a substantial receprocation and higher taste everyday even now that he has left ,and is no longer personally present to answer my questions any more .

Hence even though Tamala krishna goswami and i were not linked by diksa we still developed a substantial relationship. I asked questions which were relevant personally ,and on some occasions by good fortune he personally found enlivening also.However though i was inferior i attempted to be bold and reveal what was my next step in devotional service.....hopefully he could help which he did countless times.Over time with a generous spirit which he personally displayed i became intensely earnest,to appear on his level for awhile ,i would demand my spirit to ask sincere questions and become more inspired to become more sincere to allow krishna to use me as an instrument.
He eventually started to look for me ,i had gained his attention and to some degree his respect.You would always ask us at the end of a class ,any questions......after one minute which seemed to stretch out for almost a short eternity.He would lose patience with us who were incompetent and demand reciprocation from those he considered a little more advance or competent.Eventually krishna would empower me and we both would experience the rasa,sublime nourishment accompanied by an incredible gratitude which sometimes burst into genuine love....... which is within our sampradaya for those who risk everything to please guru.Please accept my humble obeisances Pandu das for allowing me to revisit my purpose and a few ecstatic moments in my humble devotional career

So that was my small atempt at sentimentality,actually srila Prabhupada took shelter of Tamala krishna many times,several that spring to mind are when at new Vrindavan when several sanyassi were preaching mayavadi philosophy.He asked him to take him away from it ...back to india.He was extremely mentally alert, determined and brutally heavy when others attacked Iskcon.In india when non devotees stole our lands he asked for tamala krishna to fight for them and get them back.Purchasing land for sri dhama mayapur....he personally empowered him with significant personal attention and training.Being reponsible for the largest direct preaching in the history of Iskcon ,The Radha damodar bus program....actually i good go on and on....but most importantly he garthered him close to him in his last days to show the greatest legacy a guru can give,how to leave the material body.....he was asked to become his secretary in such finally pastimes.Hence when we both saw tamala krishna s signature on the famous ritvikletter, i burst out in utter surprise because he was the perfect servant of his guru and he would have been utterly ferocious when confronted with even the idea of an ritvik archarya system being fabricated by our ISKCON......had you personally known him Pandu das you would have definitely understood what i am saying......hare krishna prabhu.

Bhakti Vikas Maharaj wrote this on his email sangha:

This answer by quoting Srila Prabhupada gives the key to the answer for the query: "How to understand Maharajs lectures?"

I just wrote to one devotee:

"Vaisnava education is superficial if it does not aim to impart discernment of maya both inside and outside of ISKCON, if it overlooks or promotes insitution-friendly misconceptions -- such as that philosophical deviations of devotees in the role of gurus should not be addressed or even considered as such for fear of Vaisnava-apar'e4dha. Education should be in Vaisnava philosophy, not ISKCON philosophy--between which there should be no difference."

I invite others on this forum, who live within ISKCON with eyes open yet not making offenses, to address these points further.

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]Bhakti Vikas Mah..

I invite others on this forum, who live within ISKCON with eyes open yet not making offenses, to address these points further.[/quote]
And I would request devotees to base their education on sastas, tikas and tippanies (like Prabhupadas Bhaktivedanta Purports) that will make your comments meaningful and actually educational, do not base it on your limited sense perception. Please...

Likewise onto yourself,please...!

Ysvt.

Jaya Acarya-Avatara!

The bottom line is

prabhu kahe vaiuc0u7779 u7751 ava-deha pru257 ku7771 ta kabhu naya
apru257 ku7771 ta deha bhaktera cid-u257 nanda-maya

The body of a devotee is never material and it is transcendental, full of spiritual bliss cid-u257 nanda. (CC Antya.4.191) That was stated on contrary to praryaksa, when Sanatana actually had a visible body that you would not want to touch. So for a devotee we should never consider his body material. That includes your guru if you are a madhyama, or it is only your guru if you are a kanistha, since kanistha is unable to recognise other vaishnavas.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]The bottom line is

prabhu kahe vaiuc0u7779 u7751 ava-deha pru257 ku7771 ta kabhu naya
apru257 ku7771 ta deha bhaktera cid-u257 nanda-maya

The body of a devotee is never material and it is transcendental, full of spiritual bliss cid-u257 nanda. (CC Antya.4.191) That was stated on contrary to praryaksa, when Sanatana actually had a visible body that you would not want to touch. So for a devotee we should never consider his body material. That includes your guru if you are a madhyama, or it is only your guru if you are a kanistha, since kanistha is unable to recognise other vaishnavas.[/quote]

What I would like to know is does anyone of you have an experience of how exactly it manifests. For me it seems to be not a subjective perspective, but the actual fact; and on the streght of it gross body of a devotee is not gross. (While in the anartha nivritti stage a devotee may exibit some anarthas, that does not say that the body is made out of five material elements).

70-01-23 Letter: Hamsaduta
The next question: the body of a pure devotee is all spiritual and He is not different from His body. That is also a fact. The bodies of all living entities, even though they are not pure devotees, are not actually the bodies of the spirit soul. It is always separate from the spiritual body. The Vedic mantra confirm it by the sound vibration that this spirit soul is always nonattached with the material body. Therefore, we do not see the actual spiritual body of a pure devotee; but what we see, that is matter.
Just like the example is given of the shining moon covered by the cloud. When the cloud moves along with the peeping moonshine, it appears that the moon is moving. Anyone who has seen such movement of cloud in the sky must have this experience.
So, the moving of the cloud may appear to the layman'92s eyes as moving of the moon, but that is not a fact. Similarly, the moving of the body of a pure devotee is not the moving of the pure devotee. After all these are facts for the process of realization, but we can try to understand them as far as possible from the statement of authorized Scriptures through the version of the Spiritual Master or saintly person.

NBS 73

yatas tadiyah

During a conversation with Sanatana Gosvami and Haridasa Thakura in Jagannatha Puri, Lord Caitanya once elaborately explained the same truth expressed in this sutra. Sanatana had contracted a skin disease that produced oozing sores. Out of humility he considered his body useless for devotional service, and he decided to commit suicide under the wheel of Lord Jagannathas chariot. But Lord Caitanya read his mind and forbade him to do so, telling him that he had already surrendered his body to the Lord for service. Lord Caitanya used to embrace Sanatana, and this made Sanatana feel mortified because his oozing sores touched the Lords body. And so Sanatana decided to leave Jagannatha Puri. But Lord Caitanya explained that He was not offended by Sanatanas body; rather, He felt great bliss while embracing Sanatana because He saw his body as transcendental. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu quoted the Bhagavad-gita (5.18):

vidya-vinaya-sampanne brahmane gavi hastini
suni caiva sva-pake ca panditah sama-darsinah

"The humble sages, by virtue of true knowledge, see with equal vision a learned and gentle brahmana, a cow, an elephant, a dog, and a dog-eater [outcaste]."
On hearing this quote, Haridasa said, "What You have spoken deals with external formalities." Lord Caitanya then revealed His inner thoughts regarding His love for His devotees:

My dear Haridasa and Sanatana, I think of you as My little boys, to be maintained by Me. The maintainer never takes seriously any faults of the maintained....When a child passes stool and urine that touch the body of the mother, the mother never hates the child. On the contrary, she takes much pleasure in cleaning him. The stool and urine of the child appear like sandalwood pulp to the mother. Similarly, when the foul moisture oozing from the sores of Sanatana touches My body, I have no hatred for him. [Cc. Antya 4.184-7]

Lord Caitanya then further explained the glories of devotional service and how it transforms a devotees body into spiritual existence.
In conclusion, the body of a pure devotee is never material. Even if it appears so, Krsna still accepts the devotee as dear and embraces him as His own. By the Lords mercy, the devotee is spiritualized, and in his transcendental body he renders service to the Lords lotus feet.

Sometimes devotees sentimentally say so many things without any real realization of the actual situation. The real point is there is nothing material in this world at all. Everything is the energy of Krishna and everything is spiritual. Things only take on the material qualities if they are not engaged in the service of Krishna. So anything at all, including our bodies and what to speak of the spiritual master'92s body is actually spiritual. The only reason they act materially is because they are not engaged in the service of Krishna.

JSD 3.3 Krsna, Enchanter of the Soul

Of course, ultimately nothing is material. Thinking something is material is simply an illusion. Actually, there is nothing but spirit. How can there be anything material? The Supreme Lord is the Supreme Spirit, and since everything is coming from Him, what we call the material energy is also coming from Him and is thus ultimately spiritual.
But the difficulty is that in this material world, Krsna'92s inferior energy, there is the possibility of forgetting Krsna. People are engaged in so many activities'96we can see this very clearly in the Western countries'96and they are inventing so many modern facilities, but the result is that they are forgetting Krsna. That is material'96this forgetfulness of Krsna.
69-12-04 Letter: Bhadra Bardhan
Regarding your question about items being used in Krishna'92s service becoming spiritual, you should understand it that anything which will remind one of Krishna is spiritual, and anything which will make one forget Krishna is material. Actually, everything is of spiritual nature because everything is coming from the Ultimate Source, Krishna. But when something is offered to the Lord or when it is used in His service, then it resumes its spiritual quality because it will remind one of Krishna. Therefore, even though such object may not have consciousness, it will act as spiritual. It is just like when an iron rod is put into the fire: the rod has not actually become fire, but it will act in just the same way as fire.
SB 10.4.20 P The Atrocities of King Kamsa
'93A person acting in the service of Krsna with his body, mind and words is a liberated person, even within the material world.'94 (Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.2.187) Therefore, one is forbidden to regard the guru as an ordinary human being (gurusu nara-matir'85 naraki sah). The spiritual master, or acarya, is always situated in the spiritual status of life. Birth, death, old age and disease do not affect him. According to the Hari-bhakti-vilasa, therefore, after the disappearance of an acarya, his body is never burnt to ashes, for it is a spiritual body. The spiritual body is always unaffected by material conditions.
The example Srila Prabhupada gives to illustrate this point is the iron rod in the association of fire. If you place an iron rod in a fire gradually, by the association of the fire, the rod becomes hotter and hotter and finally when it is red hot the iron rod actually acts as fire. One could say it has become fire because anything you touch with the red-hot iron rod immediately bursts into flames. So the iron rod is acting as fire, but it is also still an iron rod.

.

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]Sometimes devotees sentimentally say so many things without any real realization of the actual situation. The real point is there is nothing material in this world at all.
.[/quote] I knew you were uttama adhikari. BTW even uttama adhikari like Gaura-kisora das Babaji, would consider his own body material.

Sometimes devotees sentimentally say so many things...

The only reason they act materially is because they are not engaged in the service of Krishna.

Srila Prabhupada comments, "In this verse Srila Rupa Gosvami advises the
devotee to be intelligent enough to distinguish between the
kanistha-adhikari, madhyama-adhikari and uttama-adhikari. A neophyte
Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also
accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it
should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the
ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a
disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual
master."

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Vaisnavacouncil/message/10216

.

I want to know those who are intelligent enough (but not those who are over intelligent). You can distinguish between the three imperfectly, being a madhyama, and thus will have no clarity as far as who is uttama and who is kanistha. That is fine, but better to become uttama and distinguish. Even Prabhupada cried when Visnujana left, he said while crying: "He was so advanced."

eGiri-nayaka das Aug 13th 2008 wrote;

"Besides, you seem to have some misconception regarding the LINK. Diksa is not the link, siksa is the link. Diksa you can get from any vaisnava, but siksa connects you to Parampara and Krsna. It is not the ceremony, but following of instructions. Vaisnava sampradaya is siksa sampradaya - you can check list in BG, and you will see unbroken siksa connection.

Guru means vani and vapuh. In physical absence of guru, vani is more important. There is no difference between (bonafide) gurus, and they are one in their teaching. This is the principle of Guru. Of course, one may present himself as being guru, teach laughing therapies and past life regressions to ISKCON wanabees, and cheat them quite succesfully, but we should be able to recognize such rascal, and avoid him. Either one is guru, or he is not. Srila Prabhupada taught about this principle of Guru, not only about a physically present person guru.

So forget about diksa as being most important. While important, it is not most important. You get diksa from where you like, or from where is practical to you. What counts is who you follow, and how you follow. If Krsna sees, that you try to follow his dear devotee, then He will help. And having GBC stamp is really of no value on this level - they can stamp all they want, in the end it is not important how they wish to see it, it is how Krsna wishes to see it. And judging from eternal siksa vaisnava sampradaya, Krsna doesnt care about any group of people claiming, that they are the only way, that only they can appoint bonafide gurus, and that it is possible only through them.

Just like you, both Ritvik church and GBC church are fixated on diksa succesion. Maybe thats why they are both off, struggle with their existence, and will be gone eventually. Vaisnava sampradaya was always a siksa sampradaya, and will remain so, even long after GBC rubber-stamping and ritvik rubber-stamping is way back, forgotten through centuries.

Guru-disciple relationship is a personal thing and you cannot really institutionalize it, no matter how good are your intentions.

Who is talking about LINK (do you know what is the Sanskrit of LINK? Yoga?) Guru does not mean just vani and vapuh, guru is guru, gurus are gurus. And who thinks that diksa is the most important? It is just one of the first angas? Diksa is good for you... I do not like when you use the church adj. it sounds poor... I take that you do not want rubber stamping, then talk to Aindra Prabhu et al, he is a natural leader who escaped the rubber stamp, for example. I agree with your last paragraph.

It was a copy paste!;-)

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]It was a copy paste!;-)[/quote] Do you mean the whole time, all 30 comments or so, you posted, was a mere cut-and-paste? Sounds like talking to the wall then...

Never give up on Guru!

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]Never give up on Guru![/quote] Or go back to England and...[br]
Now the question is; is it that you before accepting a guru see that this guru has no material body, or is that you first accept the guru and because of your service attitude you rid of pride and arrogance, and with this purified mind see that he has no material body?

One should not see bodily activities when appreciating Spiritual Master. It is not that there is no bodily activities but one should see the spiritual activities in his appreciation of Spiritual Masters.

Like that!

Ysvt.

Guru is in every atom.

Jaya Guru and Gauranga!

NEVER GIVE UP ON GURU!!

Or go back to Belarmine and.... ;-)

Now lets us reduce guru to an atom... Like that!

Of course a true saint never thinks himself to be a Vaisnava or claims to be a guru. He regards himself humbly as a disciple of the whole world, and as the most meek and fallen soul. Knowing every atom and the infinitesimal spirit soul as the residence of Lord Krsna, he never mistreats anyone as his inferior. Please forgive me if I have mistreated you...

GURU IS IN EVERY ATOM!!

That u should know!

Ysvt.

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]GURU IS IN EVERY ATOM!!
.[/quote] :-) Please forgive my ignorance. My spiritual master said that I was a fool, but now I see the truth. Namo narayana

"Strictly avoiding such inauspicious association, we should simply hear from pure devotees. Srila Rupa Gosvami therefore recommends, sri-guru-padasrayah: one must seek shelter at the lotus feet of a pure devotee who can be ones guru. Caitanya Mahaprabhu advises that a guru is one who strictly follows the instructions of Bhagavad-gita: yare dekha, tare kaha, krsna-upadesa (Cc. Madhya 7.128). A juggler, a magician or one who speaks nonsense as an academic career is not a guru. Rather, a guru is one who presents Bhagavad-gita, Krsnas instructions, as it is. Sravana is very important; one must hear from the Vaisnava sadhu, guru and sastra"

Yes,keep Reading SP,s books specifically Bhagavad-Gita. Associate with Paramguru like this every day. we should Sacrifice mundane distractions and go deep into SP books and videos. That way we get enthusism and determination to rise early and chant.
I would also recommend that meditation of some sort could be practiced to get devotees in the mood of concentration and endeavor re japa.

Book Bhagavata ki jaya!

Ysvt.

Now I got it. It is the atoms of Srila Prabhupadas books that you take as your guru... good, for I was afraid that you actually think that Prabhupada said that guru is in every atom, While paramatma is in every atom and guru is external manifestation of paramatma it is pukka-mayavada to think that your guru is in every atom.

You cannot get the proper guidance, guru and Krsna, in every life. You can get father-mother in every life, but you cannot get Krsna and guru in every life. You have got this chance this life, how to get Krsna, how to get guru. You have got intelligence. You should not miss this point Dave. This is Krsna consciousness movement. Take advantage of this movement.

Do u have Guru,ccd? U cannot get the proper guidance, guru and Krsna, in every life. You can get father-mother in every life, but you cannot get Krsna and guru in every life. You have got this chance this life, how to get Krsna, how to get guru. You have got intelligence.

You should not miss this point ccd. This is Krsna consciousness movement. Take advantage of this movement,please! ;-)

ysvt.

Guru is in every atom. - HH Gaur Govinda Swami (Iskcon member!)

...where angels fear to thread!"

Ysvt.

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]...where angels fear to thread!"

Ysvt.[/quote] The fools quote?

;-)

Lets put it in practice:

"Sri Bhagavan, as antaryami, resides in the hearts of all. Since pure devotees are the antaryami of even Bhagavan, they can serve Him according to His internal desires and thus please Him. Thus they are known as bhagavat-preshtha. Even after becoming the genuine disciple of such a person, one must understand the inner desire of Sri Gurudeva and serve him accordingly." GGS

and

"Merely maintaining the arrogance that one has received the mercy of suddha-bhaktas does not actually award that mercy or the position of being their disciple. " GGS

"Merely maintaining the arrogance that one has received the mercy of suddha-bhaktas does not actually award that mercy or the position of being their disciple. " GGS[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]

You cannot get the proper guidance, guru and Krsna, in every life. You have got this chance this life, how to get Krsna, how to get guru. You have got intelligence. You should not miss this point Dave. This is Krsna consciousness movement. Take advantage of this movement.[/quote]

"Merely maintaining the arrogance that one has received the mercy of suddha-bhaktas does not actually award that mercy or the position of being their disciple. " GGS

.

Yes,put in practice!

Ysvt.

[quote][cite] Dave:[/cite]

Yes,put in practice!

Ysvt.[/quote]

Jaya!!! Finally you got over the ritvik impersonalism!

Finally do not be too attached to the impersonalism of mundane egoic relationship to person who is represented as ur Guru.
Neither be envious that Acarya-avatara is in entirely different category to officiating Institutional Guru.

Iskcon Guru vrnda jaya.

Nitya-Siddha Ascendency Ki Jaya!

Finally...

Ysvt. 'a0

Finally do not be too attached to the impersonalism of mundane egoic relationship to person who is represented as ur Guru.
What I also mean by this is we have to become more attached to the pure spiritual relationship to Guruh. Most of us have mixed relationship towards Guru,like mundane ownership and sentimentality at least in the conditioned stage. Isnt it?

Ysvt.