Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

Blind followers and religionists will see both as an unbreakable pair cause they worship the institution in the altar of their ignorance.

Others, even though seeing the discrepancies, stay within the institutions for the sake of security, fame, name and thousands of selfish reasons including salvation.

Some start to see things clear only when apart from the organization'b4s constrains; Someone even said, if you want to work for the institution, do it outside of it.

The truth is that our relationship with Krishna and the spiritual master is far beyond any institution and we should only belong to one as far as that helps our understanding and spiritual advancement.

Religion tends to kill spirituality. Do not be afraid to trash the institution if it hinders more than helps you, but always keep the pure teachings and the association of mature devotees as your beacon light.

hvm, never sacrifice your integrity for the sake of institutions or organizations.

I find it much easier to be loyal and dedicated to my local temple than to an entire organization. If you come to the temple you should find it in your heart to help maintain that temple, either with your service, bhoga for the Deities, or money. Be a giver when vising Lords Temple. That saves us from trying to enjoy the property of the Lord.

If were talking about ISKCON, I would not be so quick to find fault with it. Srila Prabhupada founded ISKCON and arranged for its management after his disappearance, which is being conducted by his disciples whom he trained. Its hard to find fault with the disciples without honestly finding fault with the guru, and the next step would be to find fault with Krishna. After all, the whole material nature is acting under His direction.

"As Lord Krsna says, mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram: "This material nature is working under My direction.""
B.g. Introduction

I became upset with the management three years ago, and as a result my mood went from enthusiastic to morose and my sadhana went from good to practically nonexistent. It was very hard to get back into devotional service after that. It had seemed like devotees were acting like demons, but when I became critical I felt like a demon myself. I couldnt forget Krishna, but I felt like I had somehow become His enemy. After I humbled myself and begged forgiveness, thinking of everyone as devotees, they accepted me back and have been very kind in helping me and my family in many ways. Now our relationships are closer than they were before.

I would say that if one has some problem, it is best to present ones concerns in a humble way. At least speaking for myself, I have been living materially for a very long time, and spiritual life isnt always exactly what it might seem. Our main job is to purify ourselves of anarthas so that we can become Krishnas tool. We have enough work to do on ourselves; if were overly concerned with how others are behaving, then were probably neglecting our own process of surrender.

If one isnt confident that things are being managed properly but isnt in a position to do anything about it without creating a disturbance, then there are probably ways to serve so that ones service isnt misused. If we cant figure out how to do that, then were probably not any more advanced than those we would criticize.

Hare Krishna.

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite]If were talking about ISKCON, I would not be so quick to find fault with it. Srila Prabhupada founded ISKCON and arranged for its management after his disappearance, which is being conducted by his disciples whom he trained. Its hard to find fault with the disciples without honestly finding fault with the guru, and the next step would be to find fault with Krishna.[/quote]

A fine example of the kind of logic that equates dedication to the organisation to dedication to Krishna.

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite]If one isnt confident that things are being managed properly but isnt in a position to do anything about it without creating a disturbance, then there are probably ways to serve so that ones service isnt misused. If we cant figure out how to do that, then were probably not any more advanced than those we would criticize.[/quote]

A fine example of the kind of logic that teaches devotees to only speak up only as long is it doesnt disturb others in the organisation.

In all, the kind of logic that allows dysfunctional organisational dynamics to grow and flourish.

Dont get me wrong, Im all for functional organisations, but take these comments from Srila Prabhupada into account:

June, 1977

Tamuc0u257 la Ku7771 u7779 u7751 a: That means we have to canvass vigorously to get students.
Prabhupu257 da: Yes.
Aku7779 ayu257 nanda: We have to preach.
Prabhupu257 da: That is the problem. Keep place ready, but you have to bring students.
Tamu257 la Ku7771 u7779 u7751 a: Theyre not going to come of their own. We have to go out and get them.
Prabhupu257 da: They will come later on, when they will see: "Yes..."
Yau347 odu257 nandana: First we have to get the ISKCON students first.
Prabhupu257 da: ISKCON or FISKCON, bring students. (laughter)
Dr. Sharma: Prabhupu257 da, these students can come, any number you like.
Prabhupu257 da: So that I want. I want the number. It doesnt matter ISKCON or FISKCON.

(end)

Deena prabhu,

Hare Krishna. By "the organization" I presume you mean the society of devotees that Srila Prabhupada built. Would you say that Srila Prabhupada failed to build a functional organization or that he failed to train his disciples properly?

Prabhupada: "If I say that "I am ISKCON," what is the wrong there? Because I have created this; therefore I say, "ISKCON means I. I am ISKCON." So what is the wrong there? It is like that. By energy of Krsna, everything has come out. Therefore says, "I am this, I am this, I am this, I am this." Vibhuti-bhinnam. Because everything.... Janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1]. Everything has come from Krsna."
Morning Walk -- January 3, 1976, Nellore

Krishna has said that service to His devotees is better than serving Him directly. Also consider the first offense against the Holy Name of the Lord.

There is a devotee living nearby, he thinks he is the only devotee around, and that anyone who goes to the temple across the street is a loser. He thinks hes the only one who is dedicated to Srila Prabhupada, so much that he doesnt want the association of the thousands of devotees who come to visit the temple every year. He only criticizes, and no one listens to him. How does that help anything?

"Our ISKCON should be taken as being a family based upon love and trust, so as the father becomes unhappy when one of his children wishes to break family connections I also become unhappy when there is difficulties within our ISKCON family. So please do not consider leaving as you are spiritual children of mine."
Letter to: Isana, Vibhavati -- Calcutta 21 September, 1970

Also, I dont think your quoted conversation supports your argument. To me it says that he is saying to bring students whether established devotees or newcomers. That means making more members, whereas devotees leaving ISKCON is the opposite of Srila Prabhupadas desire.

"Rupa Goswami says that the things are enthusiasm, patience, conviction, acting exactly to the order of the Sastra and Guru, and always keeping oneself in the society of devotees, and this makes our devotional service successful. So our serious students should follow Rupa Goswamis advice."
Letter to: Giriraja -- Los Angeles 8 June, 1972

Enthusiasm means to be eager to perform devotional service and to have devotee association. Patience means that if a favorable outcome is not coming quickly, one should remain enthusiastic and continue ones duty. Conviction means to firmly believe that by following this method, Krishna will be pleased and give a favorable outcome in due course of time.

"Anyone who is Krsna conscious let us live together. We are also living together in a house -- we are eating, we are sleeping, doing this, but everything in a society of devotees. Just like if you want to do some business if you become a member of the association, stock selling exchange, you can do better business."
Room Conversation -- November 4, 1973, Delhi

Srila Prabhupada is saying here that by acting as a member of a devotee association, which means an organization, one can perform better service.

"Maya is so subtle that even if one is able to avoid hearing about sex, money, and atheists, and even if one joins a society of devotees, one may still become a victim of pride and hypocrisy. One may think, "I am a better devotee than the others," and thus prepare oneself for a fall."
NBS 64

Here Srila Prabhupada says that thinking oneself a better devotee than the others is to prepare oneself for a fall. That is exactly what I described as my experience, and is the mood of a person who leaves ISKCON thinking it dysfunctional.

"The spiritually powerful message of Godhead can be properly discussed only in a society of devotees, and it is greatly pleasing to hear in that association."
NBS 63

Indeed devotee association is very pleasing, ideal environment for discussing Krishnas pastimes and advancing in Krishna consciousness. Therefore I humbly beg anyone who has left ISKCON to kindly return and see how nice it is, and anyone who is thinking of leaving to please stay. Give us your merciful association.

Prabhupada: "If I say that "I am ISKCON," what is the wrong there? Because I have created this; therefore I say, "ISKCON means I. I am ISKCON."

Hare Krishna.

Haribol Pandu,

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite] Would you say that Srila Prabhupada failed to build a functional organization or that he failed to train his disciples properly? [/quote]

Neither.

In terms of the question being asked, I would say dedication to a personal relationship with Krishna is more important than dedication to an organisation. For example if an organisation has significant dysfunctional dynamics, your dedication and support of that structure only serves to spread and perpetuate that dysfunction. I can'92t imagine Krishna would be happy with that, can you? In fact, sastra advises us to confront dysfunction and manipulation and states that we are implicated as participants in it if we are silent and do nothing when we see it.

For example, the glorious sons of King Pandu tolerated the manipulation and dysfunction of their Kuru family members for decades, however ultimately Krishna advised them to stand up to them. Great warriors and devotees like Bhishmadev were ultimately killed because, as Krishna said, they compromised their integrity in supporting the dysfunctional regime. This point is covered by the acaryas commentaries on chapter two of the Bhagavad-gita.

In ISKCON, the zonal acarya reform in the mid eighties could be a comparable example. The mentalitiy that was being protested was simlar to yours: '93ISKCON position = ISKCON = Prabhupada = Krishna, therefore whoever is against me is against Prabhupada and against Krishna.'94 It'92s hard to talk reasonably to someone with this attitude. I think it'92s called '91God-complex,'92 and is a symptom of '91Group-think,'92 a model which describes the prime symptoms of dysfunctional organisations. In devotee terms, group-think is called blind following. This has been well documented by many thoughtful devotees.

So, I'92d still stand by my opinion that dedication to a personal relationship with Krishna is more important to dedication to an organisation.

Pandu Prabhu, have you read 1984 from Orwell? I recommend it to you :)

Here is a summary of its concepts:

PERMANENT WAR against Maya twisting the meaning to "anything that is against the institution"
MINISTRY OF TRUTH spread lies to suit its strategic goals in the name of spreading KC, constantly failing sattvic principles and lacking historic memory (see Zonal Acarya era)
INFALLIBLE LEADER posing as infallible when so many gross mistakes being made and still.
THOUGHT POLICE, the "little Prabhus" denouncing any "deviation" as a thought crime punishable with death (or exile, or excommunion, same thing)
So powerful was the states control over peoples minds in "1984" that, eventually, everyone came to love Big Brother. Perhaps in time we all will, too.

I guess WE wouldnt be talking here if Srila Prabhupada honoured your philosophy in relation to institutions. He went away from the messed Gaudiya Math, an institution that was pure and powerful when Srila Bhaktisiddhanta created it. [p]
Does the material acronym ISKCON equate with the eternal ever existing spiritual truth? [p]
Yes, as long as it represents it. [p]
No, at the moment it deviates from it. [p]
[img]http://saragrahi.org/Header%20Links/Cartoons/StayIskcon.gif[/img]

Deena & Mishra,

Hare Krishna.

Perhaps if you were running ISKCON everything would be perfect (according to your idea of it). Personally, I just want to have devotee association to help me remember Krishna, to have a temple I can bring my family to visit, such simple things. What can you offer? E-mail and Internet conferences are rather impersonal. I like to see more than a few hundred pixel photo when talking with someone. If you want to talk about a personal relationship with Krishna, well five days after I began studying Bhagavad-gita As It Is, Krishna gave me His darshana during which He personally told me to get some association of His devotees. Krishna practically means Krishna and His devotees.

For those who are not participating in ISKCON, how many temples have you established? Which festivals are you conducting each year? Does your book distribution exceed the ISKCON devotees? How can I teach my kids to appreciate Krishna consciousness if I follow the example of so many naysayers and sit around and complaining all the time while doing nothing substantial to establish Krishna conscious centers? What do you do besides stew in envy of ISKCONs leaders, wishing you were in their place? You cant even go out and preach properly. When I was upset with ISKCON some teenage boys came up to me seeing my tilak and sikha, and asked me about the local temple. There was hardly anything I could say. "Oh, theyre all demons," wont attract anyone.

In an e-mail I was ccd on recently one devotee recently asked a critic of what alternative there is to ISKCON where he can get devotee association and some prasadam, and the critic devotee went into a long rant about a conflict he had with the leadership sixteen years ago. It was obvious that he was avoiding the question, and that in those sixteen years the critics have done nothing to establish centers of Krishna consciousness. I know of none anywyere, what to speak of in every town and villiage or even one near me. "But, not to worry," he says, "Krishna will soon be sending nuke bombs to kill all these Mayavadhi (sic.) serpents and their demoniac leaders!" THEN perhaps the real heros will emerge, but Im not holding my breath waiting.

Im happy to offer my respectful obeisances to anyone chanting Hare Krishna, but Im still waiting for the critics to do something of value. In the mean time, Im going to continue to offer my support to those who have some credibility as devotees, those who have enough humilty to function nicely in devotee relationships and to inspire others.

Leader or organization does not need to infallible to have a trust in it. What sort of mayavada is that? Krsna is infallible and any and everyone representing Him is perfect (no on his own accord).

I prefer to chant Hare Krishna and discuss Krishna with a few selected devotees rather than supporting totally dysfunctional projects, and no, I am not afraid of being alone as a consequence of saying things as I see them. I am proud of reinventing myself everyday, questioning everything every single day. That is the only way to advance and not to become a "happy" stagnant coward mediocre fellow.
I accept challenge, bring them on! :)

Sorry but the purpose of the question seems to be lost. The question was clearly about what to give more importance - personal spiritual development or organizational development ?

I did not expect people to totally reject organizational development. Please close the discussion if its going to turn into another useless battle of dry logic and Prabhupada quotes.

hvm said:
"I did not expect people to totally reject organizational development. Please close the discussion if its going to turn into another useless battle of dry logic and Prabhupada quotes."

rather, lets please close any discussion that does not honor the use of logic and
is not supportable by scriptural quotes, of which Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami
must be recognized as one of the foremost exponents. woe be unto any guru
whose disciples would have it other ways.

OK, I give personal personal spiritual development more importance, imho, should be the purpose of any spiritual organization. Precisely, problems arise when organization development primes over individual development resulting in gross exploitation in the name of religion.

What about dedication to a personal relationship to Krsna within an organised institution whom you are dedicated to....I am sure this is also possible is it not?

At this stage of my life, dedicating myself to ISKCONs mission is the primary means for developing my personal relationship with Krishna, and Im feeling very good about it. Also, cultivating my personal relationship with Krishna makes me more enthusiastic for serving ISKCONs mission.

Its almost like, "When you walk, do you favor the right leg or the left leg?" One leg then the other makes the whole body move forward. If one is more important, then its hard not to go in circles.

Priority depends on which religion you choose to follow. If its organisation religion you have to dedicate to that organization. If you choose Chaitanya religion you must stay with Krishna.