Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

Which one do you prefer?

Once a thief, always a thief.
or
An eye for an eye.
or...

how about telling tamohara prabhu, the CPOs boss, about these devotees? they do try to prevent child abusers from roaming ISKCON temples.

ys phani.

now the question is... who bells the cat?

as in http://www.wendy.com/children/mice/story.html

authority- nah, it is making waves
devotee- "in". no, i'b4ll get into trouble
devotee- "out", he is just criticizing, just bitter
karmi- he is in maya, do not count.

result= the thing goes on and on and on...

if youre sure someone is a child abuser, you must have some proof. either youre the victim, youve seen the abuse, or the victim told you. (no, reading it on adridharanas IRM web site is not proof.)

the CPO is willing to handle such cases confidentially; your or the victims identity wont be revealed if you dont want to. so what stops you from tying the bell to the cats tail?

ys phani.

question remains, as above:

abhiram said:

"It happens that some of these abusers roam iskcon temples and new devotees dont know their past and because they are prabhupada disciples they pay obeisances to them. Strange to see people paying obeisances to a child abuser. "

what is wrong?

whats wrong?

well i think it would be nice if we just came down to earth a little bit and addressed the issue at hand. I think that the CPO are encouraging the development of parent networks interested in this issue. Personally I think we should hear what Tamohara Prabhu and others have to say and establish child protection education as part of our community ministry. Its ugly but its real.

Personally I want to know whos been proven (not alleged) as having exhibited this sort of perverted behavior so I can let the children under my care know who not to be alone with.

Transparency and communication are the main things that counter this social disease of predatorial tendencies. If someone with such desires takes the risk of trying to fulfill them in the Vaisnava community (or any community) then the consequence should at least be public exposure for the remainder of their life. Many governments (and devotees) are against the death penalty these days so public humiliation should be a minimum concession.

'93These children are given to us by Krishna, they are Vaisnavas and we must be very careful to protect them. These are not ordinary children, they are Vaikuntha children, and we are very fortunate we can give them chance to advance further in Krishna Consciousness. That is very great responsibility, do not neglect it or be confused.'94

- A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami to Arundhati Amsterdam 30 July, 1972

As far as sastra is concerned (there is quite a long section in Haribhaktivilasa 8.357-), I havent seen any prohibition of paying obeisances (= namaskar or dandavat pranamas) to a sinful person. By pranamas one gets pious credits of the opposite person. If there are none, nothing happens. If a sinner pays pranamas to you, hes getting some of your credits which you may prevent by returning them. But there seems to be no allusion to getting his impious credits by paying pranamas to him. If you have such quotes, let us know, please.

I think abhiram refers to giving respects in the sense of accepting them as authorities.

Ok. On the other hand, Garuda Purana 1.115.6 states that _any_ personal contact involves a transfer of karma to some degree:

"Sin [karma] spreads from a man to man slowly by conversation, mutual touch, frequent association, taking food together, sitting together, lying together and traveling together."

Therefore rules of social contact have such a very prominent place in Vedic culture.

Just imagine an outsider reads the conversations: iskcon devotees pay obeisances to child abusers...

First of all, please define child abuse. To mean if a father beats up his son because the son does a mistake which if he keeps repating will make him grow up as an anti-social, then it is not abuse. We should not try to imittae modern american definition of absue which is pretty mcuh like a father should nto touch the son in any way. I find this insane.
Abuse should only include: sexual abuse or extreme physical abuse intending to harm the child. I am thankful that my father beat me up when I was naughty. I am thankful my father took the trouble to do so. I know a friend whose fatehr used to beat him up because he ws not doing the vishnu sahasranam chanting that was part of the routine in their house. My friend is eternally grateful to his father for that.

Comments wanted!

I am sure I have read that Prabhupada said parents should never beat their children. Maybe Damodars friend is a rote chanter of Vishnu Sahasranam but I wonder if he has any realization. He may be thankful he is pious but I think we can see how that echoed in ISKCON has caused the generation of problems in ISKCON youth. ISKCON youth that I have seen are generally not attracted to very pious behavior, they can get attracted to Krishna consciousness, but not a standard of piety. This very much frustrates the Indians. I think a father who doesnt have to beat his child is a lot more intelligent than one who loses their temper all the time. It is possible to raise children well without beating them. But for most the cycle of how they were raised will echo to their children.

I dont say that it is not possible to raise a child without beating. It will be interesting to see Srila Prabhupadas comment that you are refering to. But different people have different styles of parenting. I cannot accept that beating a child by a careing father is abuse. Would you say that jasoda mayi was abusing the lord then? There are so many examples of exalted devotees beating up their children. There is a story where Narada Muni tells a devotee father (i forget the name right now) - "why are you beating your son? He is incarnation fo Narayan." - Pat came the reply. "He may be Narayan. But he is my son. Since he is naughty I must beat him". Srila Prabhupadas comment may be also due to the fact that he saw the gross nature of treating children in some cases in the west. We have to see what shastras say on this. Also, stories of exalted devotees tell us how to act. It is an irrefutable fact.

I am in no way condoing beating up a child due to ones own psychological problems and issues while growing up. This is very prevailant in the west.

>beating up a child

Beating up a child? What is meant by this??

defenition of child abuse, how to respond, what to do etc,

http://www.childprotectionoffice.org/prevention.html

Inputs from Glimpses of Traditional Indian Life on child upbringing, physical beating, chastisement, etc
Children are corrected by verbal chastisement and social pressure. I have
never seen or even heard of Bengali children being slapped or beaten. Nor
do they cry very much. Bengalis grow up rather undisciplined, but
self-confident and unabashed.
Children are taught what is unacceptable behavior by the expression chi-chi
("for shame!"). Training in the many rules of Bengali culture starts from
an early age. A tiny child is warned: "Dont put your feet on anyone or on
a holy object"; "Dont give things to people with the left hand"; "Dont
call an older person by his given name or use the familiar form of speech
with him"; "Dont step over the rope that tethers a cow". As a child grows
older he learns that there are severe sanctions against taboos like
answering back to an elder and staring at a person while talking to him.
I remember seeing women bringing tiny babies to our ashram. The mothers
would bow the babies heads down to the floor in front of the Deity and put
charanamrita in their mouths. Even though the children could not know what
was happening to them, their mothers were anxious that they get the benefit
of performing pious activities. They would also bow down their babies
heads at our feet, and tell their younger children, "Pranama koro," upon
which the children would immediately prostrate before us. The older
children were already trained, and automatically offered obeisances without
having to be told.

REF: Family life, Village Life in Bangladesh, Glimpses of Traditional Indian
Life

Great Reference; take for example shastic proofs as where to Dhruva Maharaja'b4s living example to Praladh'b4s vaisnava authority on the sense of not neglecting it and not being confused.

an outsider, can not be senseless otherwise it would be from outsider.. or me, and and or anyone whos come into contact sometimes i figured God knew what he was also doing anyway and well i can barely sight because i was also coming here like, as simple as that.

Krsna Conciousness is completely full of sense, but that part i will have to thought in teaching it to if am thinking on having and or rising it to a child.

I think this meants, we can churn on the right subjects too.

like it was sensed, "perhaps", "one day" kind feeling but, no its the actual concerns i think it is going good, what to speak perhaps if my big brother is having one soon... Might Be.

WHAT IS THIS.we pay obeisances to Krishna in the persons heart not the body.We think like this because we thinkam better than him.i am pure free from lust and hes soo lusty.thats false ego.it can happen to anybody..lust is very powerful

if you pay obeisances to the body, then you should pay dandavats every time you see a living being, and that is not the case.
You are being violent by showing special respect to a fallen devotee that basks in name and fame for the sake of it.
We should use our intelligence and place our special respect in the proper recipients, not being mindless in the name of humility.

...it may be possible that a reformed child-abuser can be accepted back into the Iskcon fold,regain some of their past status and once again offer and receive obeisances.
Of course if the child-abuse you are reffering to is curent and on-going then I hope you will inform the local law enforcement authorities.

If one is on the vyasasana,automatically hes authorised,mainly when hes reading from Prabhupadas books! How many joined Iskcon,thanks to these gurus?Otherwise,you would still be dancing at the discos/eating meat!
These people are always being pointed at while their disciples also were doing illicit actions,in secret...
Some never did any service and just criticize the devotees:easy to do!
In the process of bhakti yoga,we are like dirty black cloth,gradually being bleached by chanting/service....and as Maya is always active,we get trapped sometimes,but if we get up and carry on,nothing is wasted:all our positive actions are recorded,and our bad actions are paid on a discount basis,as the power of bhakti is great.
In this material world,there has been,and there will be always people going up and down...but we should rather concentrate humbly on the spiritual masters instructions[I dont mean selling chinese paintings/or have sex with him!] so as to propagate the Holy Name of Krishna.
Once someone is on the vyasasana,you dont pay obeisances to him,but to the Bhagavatam,non different to Krishna!

even karmis are consequent when such criminal acts are committed and resign or are fired from big posts. But we, in the name of api cet suduracaro, we are being the laughstock of the world. And btw the api cet suduracaro is only being used on some very few elite people, for all the others, the Talion law is inforced.
And yes it is all the fault of "little men" that buy this rotten philosophy and promote and support such aberrations. "Thank you" for being so "merciful".

No one escapes the law of karma!
this law also sees to the reward of good actions,which have been performed by these devotees,so nicely that thousands fell voluntarily at their feet:they were not forced to do so!
They obeyed the worst of orders,just for their satisfaction,such as going to dangerous places for preaching,collecting endlessly without looking at their watches:such training,I suppose,is to get us use to the total surrender that the Lord asks from us,leaving all considerations of comfort,personal gains...
However,any devotee is subject to the increasing difficult tests of Maya,and many fell on the battlefield...While they knew that they were taking the sinful activies of their disciples on themselves,they did not hesitate to do so,and only the Lord knows how much such burdens were responsible for their fall!
Thanks to these daring soldiers-thousands are now connected to Srila Prabhupada,and Lord Krishna,and can still progress if they follow his instructions,as they are absolute and perfect!
In our long travel in eternity,through thousands of bodies,we are somehow now connected to the most perfect yoga system,and can succeed to reach the ultimate goal of life.So why waste precious time in the past faults of others? Isnt it best to concentrate on our own sadhana?

Eventurally,Lord Yamaraja will put on a scale all good and bad actions of us all...but some will be surprised that the sum total of their good actions is nearly nil!

govinda108 said;
"If one is on the vyasasana,automatically hes authorised,mainly when
hes reading from Prabhupadas books!" and "Once someone is on the vyasasana,you dont pay obeisances to him,but to the Bhagavatam,non different to Krishna!"

assuming you mean giving Srimad Bhagavatam class, Book Bhagavatam, by the phrase "on the Vyasasana" and not assuming the position of initiating Guru, the sentence, "automatically hes authorized" becomes vague. "authorized" to speak to the limits of his ability on the subject matter, but it scarecly can be taken to mean that every word spoken by every individual giving class is to be taken as The Absolute Truth. if "on the Vyasasan" is taken to mean assuming the role of Person
Bhagavatam, i suspect there are more qualifications required than a simple majority vote of 4 or 5 dozen individuals.

it was further said:
"...good actions,which have been performed by these devotees,so nicely
that thousands fell voluntarily at their feet:they were not forced to
do so!" and also " they were taking the sinful activies of their disciples on themselves, they did not hesitate to do so,and only the Lord knows how much such
burdens were responsible for their fall!" in which case it sounds as if "on the Vyasasan" refers to certain individuals who have taken disciples and then prostituted
such relationships, as well as breaking their vows to The Deities, their spiritual master Srila Prabhupada, the assembled Vaisnavas, and the sacrificial fire.

what scripture are you quoting that suggests ",Lord Yamaraja will put on a scale all good and bad actions of us all..." and how does that justify potential devotees
scripturally ordered examination of a potential Guru being discarded because the candidate may come to find that this professed "uttama adhikari" is something far less than that.

and in answer to the rhetorical questions, "why waste precious time in the past faults of others? Isnt it best to concentrate on our own sadhana? ", we have no sadhana, save and except the orders of a bona fide spiritual master, and in the line coming from His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami, we should not only have the right to expect that, there is an obligation on those claiming the position to "deliver the goods".

Sri Isopanisad, mantra 12:

The ignorant pseudo religionists and the manufacturers of so-called incarnations who directly violate the Vedic injunctions are liable to enter into the darkest region of the universe because they mislead those who follow them... The pseudo religionists have neither knowledge nor detachment from material affairs, for most of them want to live in the golden shackles of material bondage under the shadow of philanthropic activities disguised as religious principles. By a false display of religious sentiments, they present a show of devotional service while indulging in all sorts of immoral activities. In this way they pass as spiritual masters and devotees of God. Such violators of religious principles have no respect for the authoritative acaryas, the holy teachers in the strict disciplic succession. They ignore the Vedic injunction acaryopasana -- "One must worship the acarya" -- and Krishnas statement in the Bhagavad-gita (4.2) evam parampara-praptam, "This supreme science of God is received through the disciplic succession." Instead, to mislead the people in general they themselves become so-called acaryas, but they do not even follow the principles of the acaryas.

These rogues are the most dangerous elements in human society. Because there is no religious government, they escape punishment by the law of the state. They cannot, however, escape the law of the Supreme, who has clearly declared in the Bhagavad-gita that envious demons in the garb of religious propagandists shall be thrown into the darkest regions of hell (Bg. 16.19-20). Sri Isopanishad confirms that these pseudo religionists are heading toward the most obnoxious place in the universe after the completion of their spiritual master business, which they conduct simply for sense gratification.

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to respect such devotees for their service is always imperative. But, we are talking about allowing child abusers in the vyasasana. That is not correct, for them, for us neither for society at large. And this is maintained by people mixing the concepts and acting as mindless cheerleaders.

We dont know really how the law of karma will act,through the judgement of Yamaraja,though all scriptures say that judgement is carried out,according to the good actions and sinful ones of everyone.So,spreading the Holy Name is absolute,and the thousands of devotees who have been connected to Krsna,by the "imperfect"service of these devotees is also good karma,whilst we will also pay for their deviations and sinful acts.
The laws of God are perfect,so one shouldnt worry about "injustice" as there arent any,and with the maturity of devotees,they should scrutinize the actions of all leaders,and should not hesitate to point out any deviation.Ex:why everyone allowed this sannysasi to take a female devotee on his motorbike in Mayapura?This is crazy!
But more important....scrutinize also our own actions..in the mirror!

we are not having cheap talking here. You! Me? look yourself at the mirror, etc
no spiritual sane society will maintain an offender in a high echelon of the institution. that is just common sense that even the "meat-eaters" understand. Now, we are soooo transcendental we are jeopardizing our credibility. So what? ... to the hell with offenders "you can say. Sad.

Bhakti yoga is the science of SELF-realisation!
Not observing others struggle/falldowns....during their ascent,as this automatically put youself in a higher position:the ideal is to consider oneself lower than the blade of grass,and see all others as devotees.
Lord Krishna DO rectify everyone..eventually!Be sure of that!

Abhiram prabhu, you are absolutely right. Yes, it is strange to say the least. According to Vedic culture, if a man even looks at another mans wife in a lustful way, he is to be killed. What to speak of committing sex acts with anothers wife or even doing the unthinkable, committing heinous acts upon children. Furthermore, according to Vedic culture, women and children are to be protected. However, in this day and age that killing is not permissable. Therefore, common sense dictates that those who dare to do so, are to be at the very least shunned. Excommunicated. To state that these individuals are devotees is an obvious contradiction of terms. Devotees do not commit heinous acts upon others, especially Krsnas devotees. So, what is the question of calling them devotees in the first place? And as far as the so-called leadership in ISKCON goes, if they continue to allow these individuals to frequent the worlds Temples preying on our youth, they will invite so many troubles for themselves it will make their heads spin. In any event, your observation was true and correct. The often quoted verse regarding "one who commits abominable acts", simply doesnt fly. One cannot be considered rightly situated if he preys on women and children for sense gratification. Therefore, that quote does not apply to the issue at hand. Your servant, Priya

Thank you. Thank you for the above. One too rarely hears anyone taking a strong stand on this.

I can take no credit for this prabhu. However, I do thank you just the same for recognizing it for what it is. The truth.

Mindless cheerleaders. :):) Very good. I like it Mishra. Thank you for that. Quite humorous. YS, Priya

Hare Krishna. Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

This question hits me personally, and I cant help but still feel a little bitter while trying to understand. About 2 1/2 years ago my wife and I did not like having a known child molester at our local temple farm community, and because of this I practically got kicked out. Not only was there a known child molester on the Vyasaasana, but also two big gurus lavishly glorified him from the Vyasaasana. The community was not told of this devotees record with the CPO, and neither could we get information except by begging. At the time I was an elected community board member, and my wife was on the child protection team, but the devotees responses to our belated objections were so emotionally traumatic that my family and I quit the whole Hare Krishna program for about 2 years. I dont know why we have such people enjoying so much honor in this movement, but I cant say anything anymore. If I find fault with the child abusers, then I have to find fault with everyone. Who gave the abuser the job? Who didnt kick him out? Why did Srila Prabhupada allow this to happen? If Srila Prabhupada didnt know, well Krishna knew; whats His problem? It goes like that. Of course, if child abusers were kept at a distance or at least held to their rectification plan or at least required to apologize, then maybe this issue wouldnt be so freaky, but if I want to be a part of ISKCON (I do) then I have to take it along with what I like. I havent seen any known child abusers since then, so I dont really know what Id do.

I dont know whats this about paying obeisances to the Lord in peoples hearts instead of the devotee. Ive always paid obeisances to the devotees themselves, appreciating their devotion to Sri Krishna.

Hare Krishna.