Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

... go to the vice-president,go the temple board,go to the senior devotees,go to the senior congregation,present your situation to them.

Go to the internet... :-)

Dweller-in-peace, if the TP and the GBC are not taking you seriously, then you probably need to modify yourself to be taken seriously by them, or to get to the point where thats no longer important to you.

You cant change either the TP or the GBC - you can only change yourself. In cases where I have disagreements with people I generally stay inside my own space and work on improving myself. I just keep backing up until my feet get some traction again and then work on slowly moving forward. The main thing is to be undisturbed and focus on chanting. Situations which cause too much attachment and mental disturbance should be avoided.

I dont live in my country of birth to avoid being too close to some people that I have disagreements with, in the meantime. Im sure Ill get over it in the long run.

Thats how I do it, anyway.

" You cant change either the TP or the GBC " this has always been the root cause of most of Iskcons troubles.Sitapati has a nice formula for ones personal spiritual maintenance,however I dont see how this can help Dweller-in-peace,one must be truly peacefull and in harmony with their temple authorities in order to my progress.

Perhaps Dweller-in-peace can give us some of the details of what the issue is about,maybe the TP is correct and Dweller-in-peace is off-base.

Your local GBC representative should be available to you. If unable to make contact with him, TP should help you. Or your guru can help make contact with GBC.

"You cant change either the TP or the GBC - you can only change yourself."

this is, for many knowledgable individuals, a significant portion of the problem. in direct violation of the congregationally selected TP, who would in turn select the GBC reps, the current system is completely in contradiction
to the system outlined in the Direction Of Management(DOM). the "guru-for-life" concept that brought the disasters of the zonal acarya period has not been replaced, not even justified by something purporting to replace it, rather it has been expected to work better with new names added to the original list. disobediance to the instructions of the Spiritual Master, failure to follow the regulative principles of freedom, and even the failure to even be able to chant 16 rounds of the maha mantra per day are no longer a restriction to ones becoming an "initiating guru, in good standing" in ISKCON. it seems that "the good old way", depending on Srila Prabhupada, KRSNA, and ones own bead bag for salvation has gone by the wayside in favor of living in, and at the expense of, the temple that appears to currently be the most opulent.
the reasoning (or lack thereof) seems to hold that opulence, head count of hindus at festivals, and the voracity of a few select disciples proves the success of the current
"acarya", even if he winds up going away with the treasury and his massage therapist. complaints on this problem cannot be addressed by the current GBC since they have no solutions to these predicaments.

help is always welcome, of course. but unless you have something from unpublished resolutions, i would think that ive got them all, since i went thru everything from 1975 until this year. but why not email me what you have, just in case? (phani@namahatta.org)

It has been kept secret, that I have been asked to leave. They omitted this fact from their minutes of meeting which they put on devotee notice board. I asked one board member, why are you trying to hide it from devotees, he told me that they dont want to disturb the community. One visiting Maharaja who tried to make compromise between me and board told me that you shouldnt have gone to Sampradaya Sun. I feel great temptation to write the whole thing along with names of people involved. I simply love these devotee forums and Sun. But I am afraid if I do that, I might end up even in bigger trouble.

In my situation, Temple board ( which consists of mainly three devotees and these three devotees are good friends). They decided to remove one old devotee lady from her services. I protested, I was given verbal warning that I am going to be kicked out of temple. I wrote the story on Samprdaya Sun. And now I have been kicked out of the temple. Though I have been a devotee in ISKCON for almost 15 years now, but I was always an ordinary devotee. I was never a big name or some big star.

When I was new Bhakta 15 years ago, internet access was not this handy as now, so I was not explained how to use it properly. Which web sites devotees are allowed to use and which are prohibited?What can you post and what you can not about your complaints? Is there any law in ISKCON which says that if you write some complaint on Sun Sampradaya, you will be kicked out. Or the punishment to write a complain on Sampradaya Sun will be decided by local temple board which can vary from temple to temple.

I feel GBCs should come up with some ideas to include this topic " how to use cyber space" in their New Bhakta Programme. Sorry I will not mention any names here of any devotees.

that old devotee lady she got kicked out(removed from her services) though allowed to visit temple, and I am also kicked out. She is trying to find shelter in some Namahattas and I am trying to find Narayana Maharaja.

Dweller-in-peace. If you are dealing with such kind of people as you described here, then better stay away from them.

In ISKCON there is no written rule for throwing people out of temple for writing on Sampradaya Sun. And I hope there will never be any such stupid rule. TP or temple board decides as they like.

Just take responsibility, dont blame others. You challenged authorities, and you got kicked by them, as simple as that. Dont present Sampradaya Sun as some doomed forbidden place. It is not. Thousands of nice devotees take great inspiration from articles published on Sampradaya Sun. Both ISKCON and non-ISKCON devotees write there, and are doing just fine. Temple board will not charge you for that. Their view will be, that you were not thrown out of temple for writing on Sun, but for your insubordination to temple authorities. Inspite being "mercifully" warned by them, you didnt reform yourself. So you left them with no choice, they will say. They perceived you as threat, and threw you out, in order to protect temple, devotees, ISKCON, Srila Prabhupada and what else.... You will not be able to fight that, no one (I mean NO ONE, not even your guru) within ISKCON authority structure will support your insubordination to authorities, and your refusing to reform, even after being warned. GBC will naturally support temple leaders, so there is no place to complain. ISKCON Resolve will not deal with such cases. You are on your own.

If they reacted to your complaints by throwing you out of temple, then you are in better position being away from them. Let such people attract their own flock. But if you cannot live without them feeding you, then you will have to submit to their authority, lick their shoes and earn your daily sustenance by supporting their leadership. It is up to you. Being inspired by Vidura, or Dhrtarastra?

Be happy with Krsnas arrangement for you, move away from these people, but keep company of devotees that inspire you. Krsna will give you intelligence how to move on. You will become stronger, just go on taking shelter of Krsna and Srila Prabhupada, and go on working on chanting offenselessly.

i dont think giri-nayakas advice is necessarlly correct. we dont know much about the case described here, but if its really as unjust as it seems from the description, there may be something that can be done about it.

of course, such things are rarely completely black and white (sorry if im repeating myself, ive said that before), and the temple admins may have some reasons to be upset with dweller in peace, too. thats beyond this board to fully figure out, i guess.

but there are GBC laws governing the behaviour of temple managers, and how managers and ordinary devotees can be disciplined.

of course, finally everything comes down to personalities. if you find somebody wholl listen to you higher up in the ISKCON structure, you may be able to force your TP & board to take you back into the temple. the question is, though, if that would be desirable.

if they are forced to take you back into the temple community but dont really want you there, you could probably expect quite some grief in the future: an endless circle of unjust treatment from them, you complaining to somebody higher up, and then more resentment against you.

if youre the only one to whom this happens, it may be better to find a diferent temple to live in. no idea where you are from, but in most places there are different temples with often completely different atmospheres.

on the other hand, if this type of thing happens often in your temple, if many devotees feel the same way, you might try to bring your grievances up to higher administration levels: regional councils regional secretary, local GBC.

the success of this depends, of course, on how well you can interact with people.

at http://namahatta.org im collecting a resource of GBC laws and resolutions dealing with temple management. so far theres only some "guidelines" that have been voted on in 1996, which include some nice quotes from srila prabhupada and direct temple managers to act qutie differently from the way you describe.

today or tomorrow ill post the other resolutions i could find on this topic. they dont allow TPs to kick out people without good reason, though.

heres the link: http://namahatta.org/en/node/8476

phani, Ive got quite a few collected already if you need any help.

dweller-in-peace: If you reveal it all publically, you will surely get into more trouble. If you dont like that, better not write about it. Seeking justice in public forums will not bring solution to the problem. It will make your life in modern-ISKCON unbearable, you will leave this modern-shadow-ISKCON, and seek for Prabhupadas ISKCON. It will be enlivening, thats for sure. It will enrich you with wealth of experience, and you will see things from different perspective.

Many people pose with their well trained "spiritual" masks, "rock-star gurus" and such. When masks go off, their "sadhu sanga" is not so saintly anymore. Thats fun to observe, but sad to live with. Once you move that way, there is no way back. If you still have some plans within current ISKCON institution, then dont write publically. Better be silent, play it nice, and eat your share of ISKCON cake.
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I remember my writing in public and to GBCs, and wandering in circles from ISKCON Resolve to Euro GBC, "chairmans" and "special duty officers" and "mediators" and all those fancy expert managers and their fancy titles.... At first I was naively hoping for solution, to get me back into my previous comfort situation. But thats not how it goes. Naturally, the more you press on them, farther they push you away. They dont like being confronted or reminded of their duties. They like being worshiped and respected as authorities.

Public writing didnt help in my returning to my previous so-called respected lazy position of posing as occasional moderate saint, getting some into believing that Im advanced devotee. But public writing had benefits. Id do it anytime again. It revealed things, that I was not aware of before. And words like society, friendship and love got a new dimension, more in line with what Srila Prabhupada is warning us about. And promises of "heaven on earth", which Radhanatha Swami and many others from the "sweet side" are promoting, lost their sweetness.

If you are into a ride of a lifetime, ready to loose all and gain something different, then go for public writing by all means. Otherwise, if you feel this is not what you need or want, better be silent, find yourself a nice neophyte-filled temple, and pose as smart and inteligent sadhu. The more you will be silent, the more saintly you will appear. Many opt for this sadhu trip, and they seem to be doing just fine. :)

...I know what temple you are talking about,its been an ISKCON " basket case " for the past 25 years,its empty like most temples,but thanks to the Indian congregation there is money to keep the circus rolling.You should write up your complaint and email it everyone on that cities council,Mayor and all,send it every media outlet you can find,send it to every ethnic organization,you should consider it your mission to expose these rascals.

Ive never lived in a temple, so I cant exactly relate in to that part of it; but I dont think I would be able to resist telling. A few years ago I had the unfortunate experience of having a real conspiracy against me, with lies, nonsense philosophy, the whole works, and I wrote publicly about it in detail. As it happened, I was an elected community board member, and I pointed out what I considered a serious deficiency in moral integrity on the part of the guru of all the other board members (community and temple boards -- yes, they all had the same guru). In response they held secret meetings and directly lied to me, even turned my guru against me by secretly calling him and complaining, which put him on the spot where he lied to me also. I was completely devastated. So much so that I wrote about everything in a detailed resignation letter and gradually became so discouraged by the behavior of these devotees that I quit the Hare Krishna movement entirely for two years. You may want to consider that as a possible consequence of finding fault with devotees. It was very hard to come back. On the other hand, they really were wrong, as I came to realize, and Im still a little jaded over the fact that I could only come back after accepting all the fault. Its a bit of a tightrope walk, trying to be a humble devotee, trying to have moral integrity and expecting the same of the leaders, but not getting taken advantage of or making enemies in the process. I still wouldnt have done anything differently, though I think Ive learned now that its OK to take full shelter of Srila Prabhupadas siksa and not let my faith depend so much on those who have taken over his movement. Leaders have to be kept in check if theyre inclined to abuse those who serve under them, otherwise itll likely happen to someone else after you. I would be careful not to make it into an attack though, or even a retaliation. Maybe youd want to name the temple but not identify who the leaders are. I think its pretty important to try not to make any enemies among devotees, though perhaps its impossible given the state of affairs. In general its good to not burn any bridges. The time may come later when you regret it and want to apologize. Whatever you write should not exceed your ability to make amends later.

hariharibol: Going to nondevotees to help us solve our problems is a bad idea. What can they do? Ok, if someone does a criminal act, like stealing money, raping children or killing devote, then let karmi police deal with them. But internal politics, dealing with angry, greedy and lusty members....police and nondevotee media can do nothing there.

We should not hope for good advice and support from nondevotees. If we cannot deal with our own bull dung within the circle of devotees, better we admit to ourselves that we are useless, and simply go on chanting Hare Krsna, hoping that one day we will be purified enough to be of some use.

Sure wish we had a " thumbs down " symbol.A 15 year devotee gets kicked out of the temple for no reason and the best advise anyone gives him is to go to the forest to sit on a tree stump and chant Hare Krishna,I dont think that is what Srila Prabhupada had in mind.