Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

Influencing your destiny by being careful about who you associate with is a universal principle.

However, institutionalizing anything always leads to trouble.

Its a necessary evil. Which is why Vaisnava Acaryas do it.

I get your point. But do Vaisnava acharyas do that?

Having children away from the material world wont help them in their future as preachers. The point is finding the balance, as always...

Who knows exactly what is going on in Hungary? I live in Australia. Ive heard enough rumours, second-hand information, and distorted perceptions / interpretations about things that I do to know that unless Im there seeing it for myself over an extended period of time, I dont know whats going on.

If we want to talk theoretically or generally, there have been many groups who have cloistered themselves away from the world. The Amish are one, for example. Some accounts paint them as an abusive cult, some are more generous. Of course there are many different Amish communities, each with its own "ordnung", or smrti-sastra governing the community.

The Amish have a tradition of "rumspringer". Children are kept separate from the "English" (the outside world - "karmis" in ISKCON-ese) until they reach adolescence. At 16 they go out into the world to experience it first-hand, then elect to stay out, or return to the community.

From what Ive read they have a reasonably high retention rate.

Talking about isolation... seen "The Village" movie?

Sorry I am talking about the same community. Children of the devotees are not allowed to play with children of devotees who live in the temple. It is not about isolated community, its about isolation within one community.

[quote][cite] sitapati:[/cite]
From what Ive read they have a reasonably high retention rate.[/quote]
I am sure there is, since nobody can understand them anyhow... But is it the case a child in this particular temple Gurukula who is supposed to be better then the other devotees, he too grows up and supposed to actually thinks like that?

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]I was a bit shocked to learn that in the Hungarian ISKCon farm children who are part of the Gurukula are not allowed to play with kids of other devotees who live outside of the temple. [/quote]

IMO it is just another poorly designed social experiment. Iskcon gurukulas were a disaster on a lot of levels and Im afraid some people have not learned much from these mistakes.

Btw. where can I find some official sources on that policy?

That sounds a bit scary. It might be a "necessary evil", but as a mother of two small children, I would be quite upset and disappointed if my children would not be allowed to play with other devotee children just because mine do not go to gurukula. I fail to see how it makes them unqualified to have friends with other devotee children. They are good kids and know philosophy well for their age. They are compassionate, like to worship our home deities and read books about Krishna. They also do not watch TV, and hear stories about Krishna every night before going to bed. We are supposed to be members of one community and support each other. It is already hard enough for devotee kids and their parents that friends they can play with are limited, but if there is further discrimination within society, it will surely offend many people and make life more difficult for many devotees too. And I wonder, what do the parents tell their children when they want to prevent them from playing with other devotee kids? I dont know the specific dynamics of that community, but seems very strange to me.

This isolation is not going to make them devotees because it is not chosen by kids, it is imposed on them, so naturally they will be curious to know about the life outside of community and once they grow up they would like to experience it. ISKCON Hungary shouldnt try to convert human kids into robots which follow certain programme which is inserted in their memory.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]I was a bit shocked to learn that in the Hungarian ISKCon farm children who are part of the Gurukula are not allowed to play with kids of other devotees who live outside of the temple. When I heard the recording of the Wages for the Sages - I got a small glimpse of the social experiment that is going on, hidden from the rest of world there and sponsored by the Government. It is good to get money from the Gov, but should we go for such extremes as to pronounce congregational devotees to be less qualified and to forbid temple gurukula children to play with them. It is 2008 not 1988...[/quote]

Thats right. People - those with theistic inclinations as well as all others - should wake up from their dreamy kumbayah notions of religion and spirituality, and realize that the eat-or-be-eaten competition of the animal world is nothing - [i]nothing[/i] - in comparison to what one should get ready for when engaging in religion and spirituality.

Do you mean that the enforced segregation of inferior and superior kind of devotee kids prepares the parent for the "eat-or-be-eaten" attitude?

Ideally, yes. "Either be dead serious about your spiritual practice, live in the temple and send your kids to gurukula, keeping a tight leash on them, or suffer being excluded and branded as an inferior and most of all, live with the threat that you will not realize Krishna."[br]
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On the one hand, I think such segregation is extreme. (Part of me wishes they would elitise themselves out of existence.)
[br][br]
On the other hand, I can sympathize with it in the sense that I understand such segregation to be a reaction to people generally not taking spirituality very seriously and not making enough effort. There seems to be quite a leniency in the wider devotee community, and so the quality of devotional service suffers. A sense of honor seems to be missing.[br]
"Couldnt chant sixteen rounds today? Well, try to do your best tomorrow. ... Cant find the time to read Srila Prabhupadas books? Well, just try to read one paragraph, or at least one sentence a day."
[br][br]
I think that instance of segregation is a wake-up call to everyone to stop being wannabes. It might not be a particularly nice thing, and sure, some people might get cut off from performing service that could save them at the time of death.[br]
But does a good sheperd really leave the hundred sheep unattended while he goes back to fetch the one left behind?
[br][br]
[b][i]In the temples and monasteries, gatherings of unnecessary, rejected, lazy fellows should be strictly disallowed. The temples and monasteries should be used exclusively by devotees who are serious about spiritual advancement in Kruc0u803 su803 nu803 a consciousness.[/i][/b]

P.S. And I do realize that such an elitist attitude excludes people who are somewhere in between, like myself. But how else are we going to become serious, unless there are some real, immediately tangible negative consequences for our indecision?
Being warned that perhaps one will not realize Krishna or that one will fall into some lower species of life doesnt really cut it, for many people.

On the one hand, devotional service cannot be forced.
On the other hand, leniency doesnt really help either.

Baker, read Prabhupadas books and carry out his instructions. All youre doing is making stuff up, crazy stuff. Stick to the message, but adapt for changing circumstances, its not rocket science.

In response to the OP, that policy is ridiculous and cultish. The place sounds like a haven for paedophiles, which history of other Gurukulas will show you.

Hopefully people will wake up before its too late.

Baker I understand what you are saying. However I do not agree, in my experience the opposite is true -- good community will welcome congregational devotees as more advanced, because it is harder to be fully Krishna conscious if you live in the world. In fact the more engagement and interaction is given to those devotees who live outside the better is the standard. And yes leniency does help, especially towards the less advanced temple devotees who are more than often unable to perform basic tasks of human existence and if left outside immediately get swallowed by the energy of maya, if they were so fixed up you would not have to keep them segregated would you?

The real reason for segregation I see is that these new devotees (who in this case live in the temple and pretend to be brahmanas) as so unstable that if an outside kid would play with the kids who have no hot water, no electricity and no tv the situation will become difficult to them to withstand. Now if you are unsteady you need some support like that for you to keep being austere pretender. But it is only if you have a higher taste that you will be able to be austere in the material world.

I actually appreciate that you think you are in-between, that means you are already disinterested in the material enjoyment and ready to receive the higher taste process, that by the way is not dependent on social conventions or social pressure. In other words you are a steady devotee or a candidate for a devotee (whatever you prefer to think).

That is actual elitism of bhakti, the elitism of devotees who can practice bhajana and serve Prabhupada regardless of the material situation they are in, not those who have to stimulate themselves by false material (look like spiritual) prestige.

In fact I trust this falsity was inherited by Sivarama svami from his siksa guru and trainer, Bhagavan goswami. Bhagavan was expert in false divisions, politics and making people feel special without actually giving them nistha. How could he give something to others that he did not have himself. Elitism substitute for true nistha is rather laughable, as is this case of the false varnasrama.

Those children have no electricity or hot water? How is it legal or responsible to keep children in third world conditions? Growing up on a farm with animals and plants is great, but a cold shower in the winter is going to give a two year old hypothermia.

More ridiculous guff as people play at being Brahmins.

Youre only going to get sick from taking cold baths if you dont have a warm room to go in afterwards.

Of course, I dont know if the same would apply with kids. I remember taking cold baths when I was younger and it never bothered me.

[quote][cite] Kyros:[/cite]Youre only going to get sick from taking cold baths if you dont have a warm room to go in afterwards.

Of course, I dont know if the same would apply with kids. I remember taking cold baths when I was younger and it never bothered me.[/quote]

Did you live in Hungary or somewhere with a similar climate? Did you have central heating? Even with fires it gets pretty cold without central heating.

Were you kept separate from the rest of society and not allowed to see other children, make your own mind up etc? Were you deprived of an ordinary childhood to the extent that you were simply incapable of integrating into society in later life? Because thats whats going to happen here.

This is tantamount to child abuse, if thats not already happening.

CCD -

I think you have a very compassionate view of the situation. I am sure some people would say that such a compassionate view actually supports people in becoming or remaining lazy and spoiled.
I am now undecided on the matter whether it indeed does or not, or in what ways.

I have always thought that compassion, love, friends, understanding ... are luxuries - and that in life, one must not rely on luxuries, but instead see to it that one manages to get by without them. Blatant examples of elitism like the one in the OP are reminders of this attitude and reinforce it.

[quote][cite] Haridas:[/cite]Baker, read Prabhupadas books and carry out his instructions. All youre doing is making stuff up, crazy stuff. Stick to the message, but adapt for changing circumstances, its not rocket science.[/quote]

"Stick to the message, but adapt for changing circumstances, its not rocket science." - Oh? And what exactly does that mean? As many devotees as I would ask, I would probably get a different answer each time. I am sure the powers that be in Hungary believe they are "sticking to the message and adapting to changing circumstances".[br]

[quote][cite] Haridas:[/cite][quote][cite] Kyros:[/cite]Youre only going to get sick from taking cold baths if you dont have a warm room to go in afterwards.

Of course, I dont know if the same would apply with kids. I remember taking cold baths when I was younger and it never bothered me.[/quote]

Did you live in Hungary or somewhere with a similar climate? Did you have central heating? Even with fires it gets pretty cold without central heating.
[br][br]
Were you kept separate from the rest of society and not allowed to see other children, make your own mind up etc? Were you deprived of an ordinary childhood to the extent that you were simply incapable of integrating into society in later life? Because thats whats going to happen here.

This is tantamount to child abuse, if thats not already happening.[/quote]

Hungaries climate is nothing special. I didnt have central heating, but I did have a heater, and you should stick near the fire.
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Everything else about your post is irrelevant to my comment. Please dont make assumptions.

Is it advisable for Temple braminical children to be too closely associated with fringe concregational members.They could become in danger of again becoming addicted to those nefarious activities like Tv,x-box,karmi foods and habits etc.Already too many fringies.

>I think you have a very compassionate view of the situation. I am sure some people would say that such a compassionate view actually supports people in becoming or remaining lazy and spoiled.
I am now undecided on the matter whether it indeed does or not, or in what ways.

Hm... you got me thinking there. I do see so many of my friends who are congregational to bits, get spoiled, mainly due to bad association and poor japa. Lets develop your line of thinking. What do you propose?

>I am now undecided on the matter whether it indeed does or not, or in what ways.

>Hm... you got me thinking there. I do see so many of my friends who are congregational to bits, get spoiled, mainly due to bad association and poor japa. Lets develop your line of thinking.

Once there was a debate between a group of theist and atheists about the existence of God. Debate lasted for the whole night and both groups presented their convincing arguments. By morning all the atheists started believing that there is some God and all the theists got convinced that there is no such thing as God. So the problem remains there :-)

[quote][cite] Baker:[/cite][quote][cite] Haridas:[/cite]Baker, read Prabhupadas books and carry out his instructions. All youre doing is making stuff up, crazy stuff. Stick to the message, but adapt for changing circumstances, its not rocket science.[/quote]

"Stick to the message, but adapt for changing circumstances, its not rocket science." - Oh? And what exactly does that mean? As many devotees as I would ask, I would probably get a different answer each time. I am sure the powers that be in Hungary believe they are "sticking to the message and adapting to changing circumstances".[br][/quote][quote][cite] Baker:[/cite][quote][cite] Haridas:[/cite]Baker, read Prabhupadas books and carry out his instructions. All youre doing is making stuff up, crazy stuff. Stick to the message, but adapt for changing circumstances, its not rocket science.[/quote]

"Stick to the message, but adapt for changing circumstances, its not rocket science." - Oh? And what exactly does that mean? As many devotees as I would ask, I would probably get a different answer each time. I am sure the powers that be in Hungary believe they are "sticking to the message and adapting to changing circumstances".[br][/quote]

Yes, the circumstances have changed so that now they are running a cult.

Read your posts, read them clearly and with a discerning mind. Do you really think that these little children should be treated like this? I think you have no knowledge of Iskcon history.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]Hm... you got me thinking there. I do see so many of my friends who are congregational to bits, get spoiled, mainly due to bad association and poor japa. Lets develop your line of thinking. What do you propose?[/quote]

I can only speak from my limited perspective, of course. I think that strictly keeping to NoI 5 - and thus being very careful about what one considers "friendship" would help a lot.[br][br]

[i]One should mentally honor the devotee who chants the holy name of Lord Kruc0u803 su803 nu803 a, one should offer humble obeisances to the devotee who has undergone spiritual initiation [du299 ksu803 u257 ] and is engaged in worshiping the Deity, and one should associate with and faithfully serve that Pure devotee who is advanced in undeviated devotional service and whose heart is completely devoid of the propensity to criticize others.[/i][br][br]

And the first sentence of the purport:[br][br]

[i]In order to intelligently apply the sixfold loving reciprocations mentioned in the previous verse, one must select proper persons with careful discrimination.[/i]

[br][br]
Which implies that questions must be asked, information shared about eachothers status of devotional service, time must be spent together to actually get to know eachother, compatibility established, and so on.[br][br]

This may sound cruel to some people, elitist, or proudly choosy, or negatively affect their self-image as "being a friend to all". But I think that such a discriminative attitude is actually the most useful one, especially for and toward the beginners and the slower ones.[br][br]

In my experience, few things are as painful, as humiliating, as frustrating, as having an initiated/senior/more advanced devotee take an interest in me, get emotionally invested in me, claiming to be my friend or that they love me and be all lovey dovey - but at the same time, this devotee wouldnt eat the food I prepare, doesnt keep their promises to me, or otherwise puts a lot of restrictions on me that this devotee does not put on their other friends - their "real" "devotee friends". It makes for a unilaterally imposed "friendship", in which I have no say, but where I am supposed to trust and respect the initiated/senior/more advanced devotee simply because they are initiated/senior/more advanced devotee while I am supposed to view myself as the lesser one.[br][br]

This is why I like open elitism. It does not give those who are outside of the elite false hopes, it does not seduce them, it does not mislead them, it does not give them false feelings of being worthy and acceptable.

[quote][cite] Haridas:[/cite]Read your posts, read them clearly and with a discerning mind. Do you really think that these little children should be treated like this?[/quote]

I have never suggested that they should be treated like this. I have only pointed out that open elitism does have some advantages.[br]
CCD and I have been having an ongoing discussion about elitism throughout several threads. Perhaps you are not familiar with this, so you view this exchange differently.
[br][br]

[quote]I think you have no knowledge of Iskcon history.[/quote]

I think I do have some.

> this devotee wouldnt eat the food I prepare

Various devotees have various personal standards re cooked food:

- only prasadam (some gurus require this standard for 1st initiation)
higher: cooked by devotees with 2nd initiation (possible practically only in India or while living in a temple)
lower: only prasadam cooked by devotees with 1st initiation
- vegetarian food cooked by aspiring devotees (if everything is ok, can be offered to a picture)
- vegetarian food cooked by vegetarians (ie. exclusively veg. restaurants)
- vegetarian food cooked by nonveg. family members as a goodwill, accepting negative karma
- vegetarian food cooked in nonveg. restaurant (in emergency)

> doesnt keep their promises to me, or otherwise puts a lot of restrictions on me that this devotee does not put on their other friends - their "real" "devotee friends"

This would require some elaboration.

In short, I think it comes down whether one believes that two people who are not equals in their devotional status, can be friends.

Sure, one can be friendly to anyone.

But friendship is reserved for those who are equals, have comparable mutual interest in eachother, and are able to act on it, do you not think so?

If a devotee does not eat the food you prepare, but you eat the food they prepare, do you consider that the two of you are or can be friends?

I would hope that someone who wishes me to believe they are my friend would care about me enough to inquire what I understand by "being friends".

> But friendship is reserved for those who are equals

Yes, this is mentioned in the conversation between Virata and Drona in Mbh when Drona came to remind Virata of their childhood friendship, however in a position of a beggar.

> If a devotee does not eat the food you prepare, but you eat the food they prepare, do you consider that the two of you are or can be friends?

The devotee is in the position of a well-wisher, a helper. Like a doctor vs. patient or guru vs. disciple. Arjuna apologized for his friendship with Krsna when seeing His visvarupa and realizing theyre in no way equal. (BG 11.41-42)

To recap:

CCD said - "I do see so many of my friends who are congregational to bits, get spoiled, mainly due to bad association and poor japa. Lets develop your line of thinking. What do you propose?"

I suppose the question is - How can one best inspire and support people in their Krishna consciousness?

I suggested that a part of the problem for some beginners or slower ones falling away from the practice is that the more advanced devotees are sending them mixed messages, ie. on the one hand being very lenient, very acceptant, offering much praise, making friendship with themselves seem easy, seeming very open and approachable, and on the other hand strictly discriminating and maintaing boundaries. Mixed messages confuse people and can undermine their motivation.
I then suggested that open elitism does away with the first part of that mixed message, this is the advantage of elitism.

The perhaps downside of open elitism is that it sends out the message "You have to see to it yourself somehow that you reach a high enough level of service before we will even just consider whether you are eligible to visit us". This certainly makes some people feel aggressively excluded and may make them resentful against Krishna consciousness and devotees.

Maybe the cunundrum is unavoidable, and every person has to solve it for themselves, however they can.
But maybe there is an institutional solution to it as well.

I am sorry. I like discussing your ideas, but I do not agree.

I suggest actually sticking with what worked miracles in the past. Clear elitist standards (without defining who actually achieved those standards) and open door policy to all and any. Thus we are applying the same standard to all, and it is up to you to see if youre actually arriving at this standard. The natural result of it is fruitful preaching, where people are accepted in easily.

I do agree however that without clearly stating who is elite you can not specify what means to become part of it. However the attributes such as shaved heads and kantimala (the certified minimum that Prabhupada clearly stated he wanted) should be maintained as a sign of surrender. Any other ideas on how to define the threshold that should signify a person becoming a member of a lucky circle of a few?

I am not sure were talking about friendship... you dont have to be on equal terms to be part of the circle (with fuzzy edges). In fact you can see many equal sub-groups in the same level of a status, like hindu congregation equal but separate from temple brahmacaris or traveling sankirtan boys or another yet separate entity, brahmacarini asram, and ye another, vanaprastha preaching group or asrama. All rather different groups (ideally separate to a good degree) but on the equal footing of being part of the group with fuzzy edges. I think this term fuzzy edges is a good term when applied to membership of small religious groups. High standards (of the core group) and fuzzy edges that extend the membership far and wide, without compromising the all applicable high standard. ysccd

I am not sure what exactly you disagree with -?[br][br]

I imagine you will say that both the Hungarian experiment and my seeing advantages of such elitism are signs of defensiveness, signs of weakness?
[br][br]

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]I suggest actually sticking with what worked miracles in the past. Clear elitist standards (without defining who actually achieved those standards) and open door policy to all and any. Thus we are applying the same standard to all, and it is up to you to see if youre actually arriving at this standard.[/quote]

At the risk of coming across as lazy, weak, defensive - I think that going with the option you suggest above requires a considerable self-esteem, faith and whatever material means are necessary for devotional service. I think a kind of self-esteem, faith and material means that not many people nowadays can afford, or at least they dont think they can. [br][br]

There is a certain comfort if an institution is set up in such a manner that a person in advance gets classified as this or that, as in or as out, without them having to make any decisions about that or putting in any effort. "On our admission test you have scored such and such, this puts you in such and such a group, and thereby you have such and such rights and privileges, and this is as much as you may hope for in this lifetime. Accept this or leave."[br][br]

Talk about stepping out of ones comfort zone![br][br]

Come to think of it: The Hungarian school system has a history of being extremely competitive and elitist. I dont know how much this is still the case now, but up until about twenty years ago or so, it was generally decided at about age 10 whether a child could ever go to college or not. The selection between children was very early, into several tiers of education, and it was very difficult to make a transition from one tier of education to another one.[br]
So its not so surprising they in Hungary came up with such segregational ideas, since they already have them in their culture ...

If you find time, pls listen to the three classes under the link by Madhavananda Prabhu, disciple of HH. Gour Govinda Maharaja. 'a0Demons in the disguise of congregational devotees. Discusses crooked wranglers too.

http://audio.iskcondesiretree.info/index.php?q=f&f=%2F03_-_ISKCON_Prabhujis%2FHis_Grace_Madhavananda_Prabhu%2FDemons+in+the+Guise+of+Devotees

hare krishna

[quote][cite] Baker:[/cite]

I imagine you will say that both the Hungarian experiment and my seeing advantages of such elitism are signs of defensiveness, signs of weakness?
[/quote]

Probably the greatest advantage of ISKCON is that it should not be and never was a regular religious institution, like the Catholic church. [br][br]

Dont become like Catholic church. "These people, churchianity, are without any understanding. Their temples are closing. Similarly, if you dont keep yourself fit to preach, then your temples will also close in due course of time." [br][br]

Prabhupada used to call this elitist tendency a "Churchianity" even when referring to regular Hindi culture as well, because material position and material blessings are symptoms of kaitava dharma, our principle is dharmah projjhita-kaitavo (look it up in SB 1.1.2):[br][br]

February 28, 1973, Jakarta[br][br]
Prabhupada: He doesnt want any improvement. He wants to keep it as a... Just like professional church, temple.[br][br]
Devotee (1): Theyre more attached to the external form that they already have.[br][br]
Prabhupada: No, no, that is which we call churchianity. Christianity, churchianity.[br][br]
Devotee (1): Churchianity. (laughs)[br][br]
Devotee (2): Also he may lose his position because he has no knowledge[br][br]
Prabhupada;: That is going on everywhere. These, our Indian people, theyre not interested in God. Theyre interested in asirvat, some blessing, because they can make improvement in their material position.[br][br]
Devotee (3): Yes.[br][br]
Prabhupada: So therefore these rascals come, they give them asirvat, I give them, "I am so powerful, I give you asirvat," and they give them money, "Oh, here is a sadhu." [br][br]

I do not know if that helps Baker?

You once said devotees werent trained to deal with the Catholic guilt trip - but perhaps you are after all!

My experience from Christianity is that belief in God shouldnt be about any kind of gains or blessings anyway. That it is wrong to actually desire salvation, or desire to know God, or to desire material gains, or to desire peace of mind, or happiness. Basically, I came away with the conviction that belief in God is about literally glorifying nothing - but woe is them who dont manage that. That one must somehow get oneself to the point where one can love God while having no notions of Gods name, form, qualities, anything. And that when scriptures do speak of some personal aspects of God, or how God loves everyone and everyone is dear to God - that these are just some nice things that are supposed to be said, and that it should go without saying that nobody takes them seriously nor should they be.

In effect, I still believe that, as perverted as it may seem.

I think a big problem in religion is what can be called being "institutionalized" - in the sense that people become institutionalized, they align themselves with the institution, losing their personal identity. There is a poignant scene on this in the film "The Shawshank Redemption", for example. Over time, prisoners and people in similar institution-like situations lose all sense of freedom about their basic functions as persons, physical, mental, spiritual. Having to ask permission for whatever they wish to do and fearing the consequences of not doing so becomes their nature. Some such prisoners prefer to remain imprisoned for fear that they have become incapacitated to ever be able to function outside of the prison/institution again.

Religions/churches can be like that as well. When they are not about love for God, nor desiring blessings, nor about the power of some individuals. Its a kind of a very sophisticated, elaborate group insanity that claims have something to do with God ...

Well if you remove this ingredient from current Hungarian system, you will see that there is no need of such segregation of gurukula children, in fact you will make the gurukula into a day school...

Everyone should value themselves, God and everyone else enough to aspire to become a full moon, right? :)