Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]I did say something else. Its the attitude I dont appreciate and wonder how many Vaisnavas do appreciate it. Asking mixed with challenging and doubting doesnt lead anywhere. One should do some introspection and control ones speech instead. Inability to do it is a symptom of Kali yuga when the opposite is encouraged under the pretext of free speech, democracy, etc.

Liberation of nonbrahmanas is supported by many texts like BG 9.32, SB 11.12.3-6, 11.14.22, Katha Upanisad 2.23, Vedanta sutra 3.4.36-39. But one can say that by being liberated they fulfiled the qualification of brahmanaship as per 3.33.7.[/quote]
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VEDA, attitude may be this or that. We are too few, to get too caught up on attitude. Besides, tolerance is like THE most important brahminical quality. If we demand it, but are unable to offer it, then we are nearing our next personal reform. So, it is good, absolutely speaking it is good, it may just be that problem is not where we wish to paint it. :)

I dont mind if one is asking challenging questions - I do that often too. It is part of personal growth, what can be done. Of course, it would be great if we would all be fully introspective, and be able to control our speect to satisfaction of all. But, we need to get real too. If we decide to wait until all around us will be introspective sages, then we may wait a long time. Clearly lack of qualities is symptom of Kali-yuga, and things get impolite at times, but thats what we have. I think some tolerance of each other can go a long way.

I dont demand anything, I just state my opinion, supported both by sastra and general ethics, to make the questioner aware of the problem. That way he can correct himself for ones own benefit. If I wouldnt do it I wouldnt be really helping him. Even controversial questions can be asked in a civil way. One doesnt need to be a perfect sadhu for that much. Hope thats clear.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]I dont demand anything, I just state my opinion, supported both by sastra and general ethics, to make the questioner aware of the problem. That way he can correct himself for ones own benefit. If I wouldnt do it I wouldnt be really helping him. Even controversial questions can be asked in a civil way. One doesnt need to be a perfect sadhu for that much. Hope thats clear.[/quote]

Yes, yes, you express your opinion, just like we all do. You say your opinion is supported by sastra and general ethics.... yes, we all like to claim that for our opinions. You say you try to help him, so that he can correct himself, and yes, he may see himself as doing the same thing, trying to help us. Not like we asked for help, but it is not like we always wait and try to help only when being asked either, is it? You expect correction from him, but can you allow him to expect correction from you? You say his questions were not asked in civil way, but arent you attempting to enforce your (mis?)conception of "civil" on him? ........ These are some "non-sadhu" issues to concern - if you expect from others what you cannot offer yourself, you are nearing self-reform, so approach your present ideas with some reserve..... ;) Just a thought.

I did say something else. Its the attitude I dont appreciate and wonder how many Vaisnavas do appreciate it. Asking mixed with challenging and doubting doesnt lead anywhere. One should do some introspection and control ones speech instead. Inability to do it is a symptom of Kali yuga when the opposite is encouraged under the pretext of free speech, democracy, etc.

Liberation of nonbrahmanas is supported by many texts like BG 9.32, SB 11.12.3-6, 11.14.22, Katha Upanisad 2.23, Vedanta sutra 3.4.36-39. But one can say that by being liberated they fulfiled the qualification of brahmanaship as per 3.33.7.

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite]Regarding his question, it reminds me of a class given by Bhakti Vidya Purna Swami about six years ago at home program in Allentown, PA. He said that no one can go back to Godhead without being a brahmana. I was surprised to hear him indicate that going back to Godhead was limited to one varna, so I asked about it and he repeated himself to confirm what he had said. I find it extremely doubtful. After having several brahmana initiated ISKCON devotees lie to me three years ago, including my guru (who tried to blackmail me by telling me that writing about it on my blog would stop my training for brahmana initiation), I dont know if I even want brahmana initiation anymore. Im inclined to just put all my faith in just chanting Hare Krishna and hearing Srila Prabhupada speak.[/quote]
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Pandu, Srila Prabhupada said, that unless one becomes brahmana, there is no way of developing any relationship with the Lord.
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The stage of a devotee, which attracts the transcendental affection of the Lord, does not develop unless one has developed the qualities of a brahmana as above mentioned. The Lord is inclined to a brahmana of quality and not of false prestige. Those who are less than a brahmana by qualification cannot establish any relation with the Lord, just as fire cannot be kindled from the raw earth unless there is wood, although there is a relation between wood and the earth.

>>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 1.14.34
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Of course he also said that everybody can serve Krsna, no matter the varna or asrama. How to put this two together? It is about the qualities, not the second initiation or gayatri. Krsna is attracted to brahminical qualities. Clearly brahminical initiation or chanting gayatri doesnt make you qualified by default. So obviously one can observe lack of brahminical qualities even with those, who chant gayatri.

It is a problem of institutions, that they try to emphasize external designations. It is practical matter, qualities are not as easily enumerated as initiations and position. But position in institution is not automatically the same as being favored by Krsna. And it is being favored by Krsna, that we are after. We need to act in a way, that Krsna will want to see us. And Krsna wants to see those with certain qualities - and those qualities are practised by brahmanas, and become fully manifest in vaisnavas.

So, true, "no one can go back to Godhead without being a brahmana".

SP clearly speaks about bhagavata and pancaratrika vidhi as two parallel lines.

Gayatri info: http://swami.org/pages/sanga/current.php

(Let me add I dont appreciate your inputs in this forum so far.)

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]
(Let me add I dont appreciate your inputs in this forum so far.)[/quote]
Same with me, sounds like a grumpy old man...:-P

[quote][cite] cbrahma:[/cite]Since the yuga dharma is supposed to be the Maha-Mantra - why is there this supposed requirement to take the brahminical initiation, the diksa, which for all intents and purposes transfers the Gayatri mantra?
How complicated and totally misleading - and I might add confusing.[/quote]

I dont appreciate this either. Prabhupada gave Gayatri and I dont feel mislead or confused by this.

[quote][cite] cbrahma:[/cite]Since the yuga dharma is supposed to be the Maha-Mantra - why is there this supposed requirement to take the brahminical initiation, the diksa, which for all intents and purposes transfers the Gayatri mantra?
How complicated and totally misleading - and I might add confusing.[/quote]

Cbrahma, although you find gayatri complicated and misleading, Srila Prabhupada obviously didnt think so. And I never heard from Srila Prabhupada that brahminical initiation is requirement regarding yuga dharma. But it is requirement for diety worship, including cooking. Anyway, there is plenty of confusing points in your writing. I suggest that instead of following so-called authorities, you rather fix yourself on Srila Prabhupada - thus everything will soon be much less confusing for you.

Wow folks, if you dont like cbrahmas attitude, bashing him is not exactly a good way turn it around. A lot of devotees get a little cynical from time to time, and I would say quite understandably so. There is no need to be so judgmental and harsh with him. At least if you have a problem, say what it is and lay off the "I dont like you" kind of remarks.

Regarding his question, it reminds me of a class given by Bhakti Vidya Purna Swami about six years ago at home program in Allentown, PA. He said that no one can go back to Godhead without being a brahmana. I was surprised to hear him indicate that going back to Godhead was limited to one varna, so I asked about it and he repeated himself to confirm what he had said. I find it extremely doubtful. After having several brahmana initiated ISKCON devotees lie to me three years ago, including my guru (who tried to blackmail me by telling me that writing about it on my blog would stop my training for brahmana initiation), I dont know if I even want brahmana initiation anymore. Im inclined to just put all my faith in just chanting Hare Krishna and hearing Srila Prabhupada speak.

Observations: This is a Vaishnava forum. Therefore Vaishnava ethics applies here. Those who dont know it should keep at least the standard politeness like a guest. This I hope is understood as civil everywhere in pretty much the same way.

Questions: How is he trying to help us? If I go as a guest somewhere and do something which irritates my hosts Im not helping them in any way. Im simply a troublemaker and will be chastised/removed. How am I to correct myself? By abandoning Vaishnava and civil ethics to descend on his level? Is that a progress? No, its a regress by all standards I can think of, Vedic and Western.

Quotes: "The Renaissance shift of vision from God to man and matter has cut people off from any transcendent source of meaning and value, and the resultant relativism and nihilism'97the ripened fruit of the Renaissance'97have released demonic energies that have devastated the earth in our time. And there is more to come." (Lord Caitanya and the Renaissance of Devotion, Ravindra Svarupa dasa, BTG 19-04, 1984)

"The thinkers who have '91deepened'92 Sankaracarya'92s relativism have done away with an established illusion. No specific revelation carries universal authority, even provisionally. As I once heard a college girl say, expressing the popular rendition of this '93deepening'94: '93If you believe it'92s true, its true for you.'94 Thus the modern, deracinated individual becomes the author of reality, of creation. He is now set free to believe in everything whatsoever precisely because he believes in nothing at all." (Ravindra Svarupa dasa, ICJ 4.2, 1996)

"Post-modernism in a variety of ways has made inroads into the thinking even of non-intellectuals. It is no longer politically correct to assert the unqualified reality of anything, or to assume that one can know truth." (Klaus Klostermaier, theologian, Oxford)

Somehow or other, I see this idea of relativism more and more engulfing human minds recently. But why devotees should be its victims?

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This is a Vaishnava forum. Therefore Vaishnava ethics applies here.
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Yes, thats clearly true. Just somehow I cannot recall where exactly he broke vaisnava ethics. But ok, probably it just slipped my attention. Or maybe for some reason I didnt feel threatened by his approach..... Of course, you are quite free to believe that his approach to forum was impolite and see him as troublemaker - if you believe it, if you feel it, then it must be true. :)

Otherwise, nice quotes from RSD. '93If you believe it'92s true, its true for you.'94 sounds almost too familiar, does it?

I never heard for Klaus Klostermaier though, but I guess he must be a big shot somehow, just like RSD - as you say, "This is a Vaishnava forum", and I guess only selected experts can be quoted as authority in such vaisnava forum.

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Somehow or other, I see this idea of relativism more and more engulfing human minds recently. But why devotees should be its victims?
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Relativism is a natural response to failed absolutism. When people, who are not qualified, pose as absolute and abuse their power, then citizens are forced to flee into woods of so-called relativism (at least from the perspective of abusive absolutists). It seems that even devotees are victims to this abuse, yes. Or maybe it just seems that way, because Krishna takes care of His devotees, and turning away from institutional relativism doesnt mean that one turns away from Absolute. Although, I know, unbelievable as it seems, many still equate approaching Absolute with approaching the establishment, the Church. Well, it is a mad world filled with confused souls, what can be done.... In any case, a little tolerance goes a long way.

I think being rude is a non-Vaisnava quality. There is a general consensus on it by both sastra and our experience. We are all rude to a degree and hurtful to others, but as we progress on the way, it will become less and less of an issue, hopefully.

Klostermaier is one of the few devotee-friendly Indologists, a big shot one may say. Look him up in Vedabase. Has a Wiki article too.

To take shelter of relativism is not reasonable. Renaissance and Enlightenment: "Religion is misused? Lets get rid of it altogether!" SP gave examples like curing the boil vs. cutting off the hand and false vs. real money. If I get cheated it doesnt mean all money is false. I just have to be more careful. Someone said: "Cheated once - shame on the cheater. Cheated twice - shame on me."

I dont know how much you know about the Church (presumely a Catholic Church). Thats quite a structure. ISKCON is nothing in comparison, having no comparable political nor economical power due to its decentralized design. The simple solution to the abuse is to keep association with nonabusive devotees.

VEDA: By mentioning Church I meant the idea of forcing establishment between individual and God. This idea appears in all religions, it has to do with human nature and desire to control others. GBC is attempting to do this in ISKCON. Luckily, GBC is far from successful, because almost nobody is buying their stuff, and the result is no economical power for GBC, and devotees refusing to follow GBC ideas for centralization. Srila Prabhupada gave knowledge, which is counterproductive to blind following, which is requirement for church establishments. It is a first time in known history of mankind, that masses can approach God without the intervention of Church.

Anyway, the point was about someones input not being welcome here, jumping on his attitude, seeing him as troublemaker, rude and so on.... You responded to this by pulling in relativism, calling devotees as relativists and nihilists, which is basically calling them mayavadis.

What Id like to point out is, that you cannot just start calling one a mayavadi, based on few sentences he writes on internet, and at the same time expect politeness and vaisnava ethics. Maybe he was rude, but calling him mayavadi and accusing him of breaking vaisnava ethics is much more rude. My point is, that you cannot expect from others, what you cannot offer yourself. Calling people names, based on few sentences they write, is impolite big-time.

Im not saying that we should all be just sweet and flatter each other. Im all for rough confrontations. I dont even say that we should not be rude, although I agree with ccd that being rude is nonvaisnava quality. --- But you say that things should be this and that. You demand that people are nice and polite and what-else.... So you need to be able to show that yourself. But you fail. And that is quite normal thing on internet - everybody fails the test of politeness and rudeness on internet, sooner or later. Even if you write one word, there will always be someone, who will be disturbed by that. Thats the nature of internet communication - it is not about what they say, it is about what we perceive! We cannot expect others to play by our preferences, not in anonymous environment. By recognizing this, you will give some more space to others, and let them express themselves in their way.

Our calling an anonymous contributor as rude, based on just few words he writes, says nothing about HIM, actually it says everything about US. Projection is strong even in face to face dealings, it is stronger in writings, but on internet, in area of anonymous exchange, it is all about projection. Attacking another, whom you cannot even perceive, is really only attacking your own projection of what you think that he is. But he is not that. He is out of your reach. You are only attacking a fictional personality, your misconception of him, and that can be awkward to observe.

People who dont engage much in discussing on internet, or dont expose themselves to opinions of anonymous readers, are often bewildered and offended by raw response they recieve. It is not like your usual communication on Sunday Feast, all smiling and pranam left and right.... Devotees are used to nice dealings, so no wonder most are advised to stay away from internet, and this may actually be the best course for those, who are quickly offended and who feel threatened quickly. Expecting the warm and fuzzy feeling of nice temple vaisnava relationship in internet forums is unreal - anonymous internet exchange is another place entirely - the only way to live in this is to get used to it. Taking responses in forums too personal can be painful, and one trying to reform this will evoke his own reform only.

As I said, by being offended and calling others as rude on internet forums, you mostly speak about yourself. Please think about it, in case this is not what you intended for.

Girinayaka, imho youre simply overreacting. You accuse me of something I never said and did. All I said (and intended to say) is that I dont appreciate someones remarks. A sane person uses such feedback to correct oneself. If he cant hes not appreciated in any civilized society I know. Its not judging, its not ad hominem, Im not offended. It was you who brought in relativist arguments, quite surprisingly for me. I didnt call anyone a relativist what to speak of a nihilist and mayavadi. You simply jumped to conclusions, building a strawman and fighting it. We have a saying I judge you according to myself, a variation of atmavan manyate jagat. Well, if someone creates a wrong image of myself its something beyond my control.
You say I should be polite and nice. Im not aware of being the opposite. No one in this forum accused me of that so far. Rather my presence here seems to be appreciated, judging from the karma points. If you can find one impolite quote from me please do so.

I agree with you that internet is specific in many ways, absence of a body language being the prominent factor influencing the conversation. Therefore Im very careful about what I say and how I say it. And most of my online activity is an exchange with nondevotees (mainly Beliefnet and email) presenting and defending GV siddhanta. If Id get easily offended I couldnt do that. This type of exchange with you is a very rare one for me.

Theres always someone between an individual and God, in our case the whole guru parampara. There is also a sadhu sanga as our support. Ours is not "me-and-God" religion. (Actually there very few of those, Judaism and Islam coming to my mind, but it may not be applicable to all of their subgroups.)

Ive seen many similarly GBC-frustrated devotees like you and what I said in my previous post about choosing ones association is something which can prevent such frustrations or limit them considerably. Imho, a frustrated devotee is a painful sight for Krishna. I pray for the removal of their frustrations.

VEDA, yes, you are right, I was overreacting. Im extremist person by nature. :) I could argue a bit more about your points, but let it rest, I think I said enough. If there was anything useful in my points, Im sure you will take it into consideration.

Im not promoting ""me-and-God" religion btw. Clearly there is guru and entire parampara in-between. But it is a personal thing, not much place (or need) for GBC church in there.

And, yes, you are also right about my being GBC-frustrated. Anyway, another lesson learnt. Burnt my fingers, will surely be much more careful in the future.

Girinayaka, thanks for this exchange. Hope it helped someone. _/\o_

Let me add that if we pray for others instead of criticizing them the quality of sadhu sanga improves significantly. So if GBC members are lacking in any way they need devotee prayers. Itll benefit everyone.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]
(Let me add I dont appreciate your inputs in this forum so far.)[/quote]
Same with me, sounds like a grumpy old man...:-P[/quote]
It was not an input. It was a fair question, and I might add a logical one, since the requirements keep piling on from what is presented as a simple process. Grumpiness and age are beside the point and a total evasion of the question, suggesting that such beliefs are sentimentally held rather than philosophically understood.

What points are confusing? Ive hardly made any points at all. Be specific instead of making sweeping criticisms.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]I did say something else. Its the attitude I dont appreciate and wonder how many Vaisnavas do appreciate it. Asking mixed with challenging and doubting doesnt lead anywhere. One should do some introspection and control ones speech instead. Inability to do it is a symptom of Kali yuga when the opposite is encouraged under the pretext of free speech, democracy, etc.

Liberation of nonbrahmanas is supported by many texts like BG 9.32, SB 11.12.3-6, 11.14.22, Katha Upanisad 2.23, Vedanta sutra 3.4.36-39. But one can say that by being liberated they fulfiled the qualification of brahmanaship as per 3.33.7.[/quote]
Asking specific questions about what appears to be a logical contradiction doesnt lead anywhere? That only points to the inadequacy of understanding.
There seems to be a double standard in force here about who can be critical and who cannot which is itself enlightening.

[quote][cite] cbrahma:[/cite]What points are confusing? Ive hardly made any points at all. Be specific instead of making sweeping criticisms.[/quote]
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Points deducted from your writing:
1. brahminical initiation is not required
2. yuga dharma is supposed to be Maha-mantra, not Gayatri
3. ISKCON devotees think gayatri is more important than harinama
4. Srila Prabhupada was wrong in giving brahmana initiations
5. ISKCON devotees are wrong for following Srila Prabhupada
6. you know better than Srila Prabhupada
7. everybody is confused, except you

Would you say these are not the points you intended to convey with your rhetorical question? If not, then I must have misunderstood. Sorry then.

cbrahma, if you quote me why dont you read the quote at least? I said "asking mixed with challenging and doubting", not just "asking" - thats your strawman which you attack.

The specific verse on my mind in this connection is BG 4.34. To realize this need is not as easy as it seems. Yet this approach is the only one leading to a transcendent knowledge.

[quote][cite] Giri-nayaka das:[/cite][quote][cite] cbrahma:[/cite]What points are confusing? Ive hardly made any points at all. Be specific instead of making sweeping criticisms.[/quote]
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Points deducted from your writing:
1. brahminical initiation is not required
2. yuga dharma is supposed to be Maha-mantra, not Gayatri
3. ISKCON devotees think gayatri is more important than harinama
4. Srila Prabhupada was wrong in giving brahmana initiations
5. ISKCON devotees are wrong for following Srila Prabhupada
6. you know better than Srila Prabhupada
7. everybody is confused, except you

Would you say these are not the points you intended to convey with your rhetorical question? If not, then I must have misunderstood. Sorry then.[/quote]

You dont seem the least bit confused - just incapable of making proper logic inferences.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]cbrahma, if you quote me why dont you read the quote at least? I said "asking mixed with challenging and doubting", not just "asking" - thats your strawman which you attack.

The specific verse on my mind in this connection is BG 4.34. To realize this need is not as easy as it seems. Yet this approach is the only one leading to a transcendent knowledge.[/quote]
Asking a question presupposes doubt. As for the challenges - if you cant take challenges based on proper evidence then it doesnt speak well of your understanding.

Okay okay - brahma gayatri is not a requirement. But the Gopal gayatri is, since Sanatana goswami wrote whole Brihad Bhagavatamrita around it...this is the mantra that leads you to the sprititual world and it is Gopala mantra that is part of gayatri that is so important. And how can you ignore mercy of gurudeva and caitanya mahaprabhu in receiving this form of the Harer Nama?

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]Okay okay - brahma gayatri is not a requirement. But the Gopal gayatri is, since Sanatana goswami wrote whole Brihad Bhagavatamrita around it...this is the mantra that leads you to the sprititual world and it is Gopala mantra that is part of gayatri that is so important. And how can you ignore mercy of gurudeva and caitanya mahaprabhu in receiving this form of the Harer Nama?[/quote]
Now I am thoroughly confused. How is there a question of ignoring. Caitanya Mahaprabhu stated plainly, simply that the Maha Mantra is the only way -
harer nama harer nama harer namaivia kevalam
kalau nasty eva nasty eva nasty eva gatir anyatha

Chant the Holy name, chant the Holy name, chant the Holy name. In the Kali yuga, there is no other way, no other way, no other way!

[quote][cite] cbrahma:[/cite]
You dont seem the least bit confused - just incapable of making proper logic inferences.[/quote]

No, I am confused. You seem to not rely on Srila Prabhupada, and thats confusing to me. And, ok, you may not be Srila Prabhupadas follower, but you didnt quote anybody in your presentation. I wonder what logical argument would be of some value to you? And who would you accept as authority? Could you please shed some light on this?

[quote][cite] Giri-nayaka das:[/cite][quote][cite] cbrahma:[/cite]
You dont seem the least bit confused - just incapable of making proper logic inferences.[/quote]

No, I am confused. You seem to not rely on Srila Prabhupada, and thats confusing to me. And, ok, you may not be Srila Prabhupadas follower, but you didnt quote anybody in your presentation. I wonder what logical argument would be of some value to you? And who would you accept as authority? Could you please shed some light on this?[/quote]

Of course I am addressing some ISKCON practices that seem contradictory. How well founded they are according to Prabhupada is not something for me to determine. It isnt simply a question of authority, but of basic logic.

I dont have any problem with cbrahmas question here. Indeed its something I might have asked. I have no idea why it should be taken as being against Srila Prabhupadas teachings. Where in his teachings is it said that one must have brahmana initiation to go back to Godhead? Has anyone here even cited Srila Prabhupada saying such a thing?

Take this for example: "4. Srila Prabhupada was wrong in giving brahmana initiations," which was taken as an assumption of the original question. Why is that necessarily an assumption? It may be that Srila Prabhupada pushed for his disciples to become brahmanas because the brahmana ashram is lacking in society. Its not that everyone must be a brahmana. That is not varnasrama. Head only? Who will protect the head? Who will feed? Who will serve the others? How can you folks say that only the brahmana initiated devotees go back to Godhead? The protectors of the brahmanas dont go? The ones who feed the brahmanas and protect the cows dont go back to Godhead? Those who are not gifted with sharp intelligence but who humbly serve Vaisnavas in their various duties do not get to go back to Godhead? Im sorry, but that is just completely ridiculous, and Im astonished that devotees here are continuing to gang up on cbrahma expressing his doubt about this.

What could possibly be lacking in the chanting of Hare Krishna only? Take this statement from B.g. 9.31(p), "Therefore, the chanting of Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare should be continued without stoppage." What is missing from chanting Hare Krishna that requires one to chant another mantra to go back to Godhead? Krishna says in B.g. 8.5, "And whoever, at the end of his life, quits his body remembering Me alone at once attains My nature. Of this there is no doubt." No mention of brahmana initiation. Srila Prabhupada says in the purport, "If one wants to achieve success at the end of his life, the process of remembering Krsna is essential. Therefore one should constantly, incessantly chant the maha-mantra -- Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. Lord Caitanya has advised that one be as tolerant as a tree (taror iva sahisnuna). There may be so many impediments for a person who is chanting Hare Krsna. Nonetheless, tolerating all these impediments, one should continue to chant Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare, so that at the end of ones life one can have the full benefit of Krsna consciousness." Still no mention of brahmana initiation, only "constantly, incessantly chant the maha-mantra -- Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare."

Where in the following does Srila Prabhupada say that everyone should become a brahmana so they can go back to Godhead?

"It is better to engage in ones own occupation, even though one may perform it imperfectly, than to accept anothers occupation and perform it perfectly. Duties prescribed according to ones nature are never affected by sinful reactions."
PURPORT
"Ones occupational duty is prescribed in Bhagavad-gita. As already discussed in previous verses, the duties of a brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya and sudra are prescribed according to their particular modes of nature. One should not imitate anothers duty. A man who is by nature attracted to the kind of work done by sudras should not artificially claim to be a brahmana, although he may have been born into a brahmana family. In this way one should work according to his own nature; no work is abominable, if performed in the service of the Supreme Lord. The occupational duty of a brahmana is certainly in the mode of goodness, but if a person is not by nature in the mode of goodness, he should not imitate the occupational duty of a brahmana. For a ksatriya, or administrator, there are so many abominable things; a ksatriya has to be violent to kill his enemies, and sometimes a ksatriya has to tell lies for the sake of diplomacy. Such violence and duplicity accompany political affairs, but a ksatriya is not supposed to give up his occupational duty and try to perform the duties of a brahmana.
"One should act to satisfy the Supreme Lord. For example, Arjuna was a ksatriya. He was hesitating to fight the other party. But if such fighting is performed for the sake of Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, there need be no fear of degradation. In the business field also, sometimes a merchant has to tell so many lies to make a profit. If he does not do so, there can be no profit. Sometimes a merchant says, "Oh, my dear customer, for you I am making no profit," but one should know that without profit the merchant cannot exist. Therefore it should be taken as a simple lie if a merchant says that he is not making a profit. But the merchant should not think that because he is engaged in an occupation in which the telling of lies is compulsory, he should give up his profession and pursue the profession of a brahmana. That is not recommended. Whether one is a ksatriya, a vaisya, or a sudra doesnt matter, if he serves, by his work, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Even brahmanas, who perform different types of sacrifice, sometimes must kill animals because sometimes animals are sacrificed in such ceremonies. Similarly, if a ksatriya engaged in his own occupation kills an enemy, there is no sin incurred. In the Third Chapter these matters have been clearly and elaborately explained; every man should work for the purpose of Yajna, or for Visnu, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Anything done for personal sense gratification is a cause of bondage. The conclusion is that everyone should be engaged according to the particular mode of nature he has acquired, and he should decide to work only to serve the supreme cause of the Supreme Lord."
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Bg 18.47

"As Maharaja Yudhisthira decided to prepare to go back to Godhead, so also Kunti decided, and thus she fully engaged herself in the transcendental devotional service of the Lord which guarantees one a passport for going back to Godhead after quitting this present material body. The beginning of devotional service to the Lord is the beginning of spiritualizing the present body, and thus an unalloyed devotee of the Lord loses all material contact in the present body. The abode of the Lord is not a myth, as is thought by the unbelievers or ignorant people, but one cannot reach there by any material means like a sputnik or space capsule. But one can certainly reach there after leaving this present body, and one must prepare himself to go back to Godhead by practicing devotional service. That guarantees a passport for going back to Godhead, and Kunti adopted it."
>>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 1.15.33

The Pandavas were neither initiated brahmanas, nor were they brahmanas in behavior. As far as I know, Haridas Thakur was not an initiated brahmana. (Did he chant Gayatri?) So was he not qualified to go back to Godhead?

uc0u346 ru299 Caitanya Caritu257 mru803 ta Madhya 15.108

"The regulative principles of du299 ksu803 u257 are explained in the Hari-bhakti-vilu257 sa (2.3-4) and the Bhakti-sandarbha (283). As stated:

dviju257 nu257 m anupetu257 nu257 u109 u769 svakarmu257 dhyayanu257 disu803 u yathu257 dhiku257 ro nu257 stu299 ha syu257 c copanayanu257 d anu
tathu257 tru257 du299 ksu803 itu257 nu257 u109 u769 tu mantra-devu257 rcanu257 disu803 u nu257 dhiku257 ro sty atahu803 kuryu257 d u257 tmu257 nau109 u769 u347 iva-sau109 u769 stutam

"Even though born in a bru257 hmanu803 a family, one cannot engage in Vedic rituals without being initiated and having a sacred thread. Although born in a bru257 hmanu803 a family, one becomes a bru257 hmanu803 a only after initiation and the sacred thread ceremony. Unless one is initiated as a bru257 hmanu803 a, one cannot worship the holy name properly."

Later Prabhupada writes in the same purport:

"Although Deity worship is not essential, the material conditioning of most candidates for devotional service requires that they engage in this activity. When we consider their bodily and mental conditions, we find that the character of such candidates is impure and their minds are agitated. Therefore, to rectify this material conditioning the great sage Nu257 rada and others have at different times recommended various kinds of regulations for Deity worship. Similarly, the Ru257 mu257 rcana-candriku257 states: vinaiva du299 ksu803 u257 u109 u769 viprendra purau347 caryu257 u109 u769 vinaiva hi vinaiva nyu257 sa-vidhinu257 japa-mu257 trenu803 a siddhi-du257 : "O best of the bru257 hmanu803 as, even without initiation, preliminary purification or acceptance of the renounced order, one can attain perfection in devotional service simply by chanting the Lords holy name." In other words, the chanting of the Hare Kru803 su803 nu803 a mahu257 -mantra is so powerful that it does not depend on official initiation, but if one is initiated and engages in pa'f1caru257 tra-vidhi (Deity worship), his Kru803 su803 nu803 a consciousness will awaken very soon, and his identification with the material world will be vanquished."

cbrahma, asking a question doesnt presuppose doubt since most questions are asked simply to remove ones lack of knowledge. And although I didnt make it sufficiently clear I meant doubt in the sense of doubting the qualification of the one who is asked. Why ask then? Its a waste of time for all involved.

I can take challenges, based on proper evidence or not. I do it all the time. I replied and now Deena expanded on it. But I definitely prefer challenges from someone who knows what hes talking about. Plus I dont appreciate apriori putdowns (using words like "totally misleading").

Pandu, there are two things, guna and karma. So one can be brahmana by guna and brahmana by karma. As you noted, Srila Prabhupada never said that one must become brahmana by occupation to go back home back to Godhead. Brahmanas have their perscribed duties, and brahmana initiation is neccessary in performing their prescribed duties.

Engagement in temple in many cases requires second initiation. Srila Prabhupada says in a lecture:
============
First of all they come in the temple and hear for some days. Then all of a sudden he becomes shaven-headed. We havent to request. He takes a bead and bead bag, although hes not initiated. Then, after some days, he approaches, "Please get me initiated." The bhajana-kriyuc0u257 . This is called bhajana-kriyu257 . So we initiate. "Yes, now you are interested, we initiate." We give him hari-nu257 ma: "Chant Hare Ku7771 u7779 u7751 a mantra." This is the first initiation. "And chant sixteen rounds and observe these rules and regulations." Then, when I see, six months or one year, hes doing very nicely, then we accept him as my disciple, the second initiation. So this is bhajana-kriyu257 . Then hes admitted to worship the Deity or cook for the Deity, so many things. Bhajana-kriyu257 .
============
You can clearly see that second initiation is important step in Srila Prabhupadas description od path towards bhajana-kriya. Notable is even the point that "hes doing very nicely, then we accept him as my disciple, the second initiation". One could conclude from this that second initiation means being accepted by guru. Im sure you heard that before.

And in letter to Yamuna he says:
============
The system is that only one who is qualified with Gayatri initiation may directly worship the Deities (i.e. bathing, offering bhoga and aratrik, cooking for the Deities, etc.).
============

From this, Pandu, I think it should be clear to you what Srila Prabhupada wanted for his disciples engaged in temples.

And then there is quote which I already pasted above, but let me do it again:
=====
The stage of a devotee, which attracts the transcendental affection of the Lord, does not develop unless one has developed the qualities of a brahmana as above mentioned. The Lord is inclined to a brahmana of quality and not of false prestige. Those who are less than a brahmana by qualification cannot establish any relation with the Lord, just as fire cannot be kindled from the raw earth unless there is wood, although there is a relation between wood and the earth.

>>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 1.14.34
=====

It is not occupation, that attracts Krsna, but qualities. Krsna is attracted by brahminical qualities, as described in BG 18.42: "Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness-these are the qualities by which the bru257 hmau7751 as work."

So Krsna likes to see those things, and without those qualities one "cannot establish any relation with the Lord, just as fire cannot be kindled from the raw earth unless there is wood, although there is a relation between wood and the earth".

One can argue that this is not logical, that both wood and earth are the same substance, so why would only wood burn.... Well, one can argue anything, but in the end still only wood burns, and earth doesnt, what can be done. It is beyond logic until experienced.

[quote][cite] cbrahma:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]Okay okay - brahma gayatri is not a requirement. But the Gopal gayatri is, since Sanatana goswami wrote whole Brihad Bhagavatamrita around it...this is the mantra that leads you to the sprititual world and it is Gopala mantra that is part of gayatri that is so important. And how can you ignore mercy of gurudeva and caitanya mahaprabhu in receiving this form of the Harer Nama?[/quote]
Now I am thoroughly confused. How is there a question of ignoring. Caitanya Mahaprabhu stated plainly, simply that the Maha Mantra is the only way -
harer nama harer nama harer namaivia kevalam
kalau nasty eva nasty eva nasty eva gatir anyatha

Chant the Holy name, chant the Holy name, chant the Holy name. In the Kali yuga, there is no other way, no other way, no other way![/quote]
Exactly and Gayatri mantras are the holy names. (Unless you never read it).

When is the harer nama became limited to hare krishna maha mantra? "Caitanya Mahaprabhu stated plainly, simply that the Maha Mantra is the only way" - where did he say it?

He said you have unlimited names such as Krishna and Govinda" - are you saying that Prabhupada was not supposed to give us the name Govinda and gave only Hare Krishna?

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]cbrahma, asking a question doesnt presuppose doubt since most questions are asked simply to remove ones lack of knowledge. And although I didnt make it sufficiently clear I meant doubt in the sense of doubting the qualification of the one who is asked. Why ask then? Its a waste of time for all involved.

I can take challenges, based on proper evidence or not. I do it all the time. I replied and now Deena expanded on it. But I definitely prefer challenges from someone who knows what hes talking about. Plus I dont appreciate apriori putdowns (using words like "totally misleading").[/quote]
This is a defensive posture. Doubt means one does not fully comprehend what is being said - blind faith simply based on authority is not philosophy and religion without philosophy is sentimentality.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote][cite] cbrahma:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]Okay okay - brahma gayatri is not a requirement. But the Gopal gayatri is, since Sanatana goswami wrote whole Brihad Bhagavatamrita around it...this is the mantra that leads you to the sprititual world and it is Gopala mantra that is part of gayatri that is so important. And how can you ignore mercy of gurudeva and caitanya mahaprabhu in receiving this form of the Harer Nama?[/quote]
Now I am thoroughly confused. How is there a question of ignoring. Caitanya Mahaprabhu stated plainly, simply that the Maha Mantra is the only way -
harer nama harer nama harer namaivia kevalam
kalau nasty eva nasty eva nasty eva gatir anyatha

Chant the Holy name, chant the Holy name, chant the Holy name. In the Kali yuga, there is no other way, no other way, no other way![/quote]
Exactly and Gayatri mantras are the holy names. (Unless you never read it).

When is the harer nama became limited to hare krishna maha mantra? "Caitanya Mahaprabhu stated plainly, simply that the Maha Mantra is the only way" - where did he say it?

He said you have unlimited names such as Krishna and Govinda" - are you saying that Prabhupada was not supposed to give us the name Govinda and gave only Hare Krishna?[/quote]
Ive already provided an answer

"harer nama harer nama
harer namaiva kevalam
kalau nasty eva nasty eva
nasty eva gatir anyatha"

In this age of quarrel and hypocrisy, the only means of deliverance is the chanting of the holy names of the Lord. There is no other way. There is no other way. There is no other way.

Hari-Sauri: But in Caitanya Mahaprabhus practical preaching He only induced them to chant.
Prabhupada: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varnasrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy.
Satsvarupa: We tell them go on with your job but chant also.
Prabhupada: Yes. Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommended, sthane sthita'f9. Therefore varnasrama-dharma is required. Simply show-bottle will not do. So the varnasrama-dharma should be introduced all over the world, and...
Satsvarupa: Introduced starting with ISKCON community?
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Brahmana, ksatriyas. There must be regular education. So we are stressing on the point of education. You educate certain section as brahmana, certain section as ksatriya, certain section as vaisya. In that education we dont discriminate because hes coming of a sudra family. Take education. Be qualified.
Hari-Sauri: But in our community as it is, we are training up as Vaisnavas...
Prabhupada: Vaisnava is not so easy. The varnasrama-dharma should be established to become a Vaisnava. It is not so easy to become Vaisnava.
Hari-Sauri: No, its not a cheap thing.
Prabhupada: Yes. Vaisnava, to become Vaisnava, is not so easy. If to become Vaisnava is so easy, why so many fall down? It is not easy.
Hari-Sauri: Varnasrama system is beneficial. Where will we introduce the varnasrama system, then?
Prabhupada: In our society, amongst our members.
Hari-Sauri: But then if everybodys being raised to the brahminical platform...
Prabhupada: Not everybody. Why you are misunderstanding? Varnasrama, not everybody should become brahmana.
Hari-Sauri: No, but in our society practically everyone is being raised to that platform. So then one might ask what is...
Prabhupada: Everybody is being raised, but theyre falling down.
Hari-Sauri: So then we should make it more difficult to get brahminical initiation. After four or five years.
Prabhupada: Not necessary. You remain as a ksatriya. Youll be happy.
Hari-Sauri: No need for even any brahmana initiation, then...
Prabhupada: No, no.
Hari-Sauri: Unless one is particularly inclined.
Prabhupada: Not that a Sudra man is by force become a brahmana. You cannot improve. That is not possible. But even if he remains a sudra and does accordingly, he will get the same position as devotee. Sva-karmana tam abhyarcya sam... Hell get the perfection. At the present moment the idea is: if one remains a sudra, then he cannot get perfection. No. Even a sudra can get perfection provided he does the work of a sudra perfectly.
Hari-Sauri: For Krsna.
Prabhupada: Therefore why a sudra artificially should be a brahmana? Let him remain a sudra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of sudra, hell also be as good as a brahmana. The same example: Just like head is as important as my leg. It is not that because it is leg, it is less important than my head. And if you ask the head, '93Do the work of a leg,'94 it is impossible. And if you ask the leg to work as a brain, that is impossible. Let him remain brain, let him remain leg, and do your duty and you become perfect.
Satsvarupa: Today youve been saying that the Vaisnava is the highest, above the brahmana. But then weve also understood that everyone in ISKCON is a Vaisnava.
Prabhupada: Yes. Vaisnava everyone, even if hes not brahmana. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krsna-dasa. But you have to gradually bring him to th at pure consciousness that '93I am servant of Krsna.'94 Here the bodily conception is going on, '93I am American,'94 '93I am Indian,'94 '93I am this,'94 '93I am that.'94
Satsvarupa: If in our society we say, '93Srila Prabhupada wants some to be sudra...'94
Prabhupada: No, no, no. I dont want. I want everyone to become Vaisnava. But because hes a sudra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the platform of brahmana, or Vaisnava. Therefore falling down. Therefore the system must be present. But even if he remains a sudra, hes a Vaisnava.
Hari-Sauri: So wed have to completely revise the whole system that we have now.
Prabhupada: No. Whatever we have, that is all right. But we see by experience that theyre falling down. Why falling down? Because he was not fit for the position, therefore he has fallen. Better remain in his position and become perfect. Why artificially bring them? There is no need. Krsna says. Bring that Bhagavad-gita. Sve sve karmany abhirata'f9?
Hari-Sauri: sve sve karmany ab hirata'f9 sa'e0siddhi'e0 labhate nara'f9 sva-karma-nirata'f9 siddhi'e0 yatha vindati tac chrnu By following his qualities of work, every man can become perfect. Now please hear from Me how this can be done.'94
Prabhupada: Yes. He is sudra, clerk. As a sudra, he can get the perfection. Why he should artificially become a brahmana and sannyasi and fall down? This has to be checked.

cbrahma, better consult some dictionary. And also entry strawman.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]cbrahma, better consult some dictionary. And also entry strawman.[/quote]
On what matter?

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]cbrahma, better consult some dictionary. And also entry strawman.[/quote]
I will also speculate that you mean doubt
doubtuc0u8194 u8194 /dau650 t/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [dout] Show IPA Pronunciation

'96verb (used with object) 1. to be uncertain about; consider questionable or unlikely; hesitate to believe.
2. to distrust.
3. Archaic. to fear; be apprehensive about.
'96verb (used without object) 4. to be uncertain about something; be undecided in opinion or belief.
'96noun 5. a feeling of uncertainty about the truth, reality, or nature of something.
6. distrust.
7. a state of affairs such as to occasion uncertainty.
8. Obsolete. fear; dread.

No where does it mention authority if you want to be literal about it.
Simply not blindly accepting authority is not tantamount to complete denial of authority.
One must scrutinize, then accept.
I know what straw man means. So whats your point?

Ive already explained what I mean: 6. distrust

My point is that you create a strawman of what I presumably advocate, i.e. a blind faith. Vaishnava Vedanta pramana system doesnt have a place for blind faith. Everything must be supported by guru-sadhu-sastra in mutual agreement. (I suggest Wikipedia for clarifying these terms.) As far as Im concerned your question has been answered in this way.

[quote]
"harer nama harer nama
harer namaiva kevalam
kalau nasty eva nasty eva
nasty eva gatir anyatha"

In this age of quarrel and hypocrisy, the only means of deliverance is the chanting of the holy names of the Lord. There is no other way. There is no other way. There is no other way.[/quote]
You answered yourself. However only brahmanas are normally given this form of Holy name, Gayatri. Are you saying gayatri is not a holy name?

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]Ive already explained what I mean: 6. distrust

My point is that you create a strawman of what I presumably advocate, i.e. a blind faith. Vaishnava Vedanta pramana system doesnt have a place for blind faith. Everything must be supported by guru-sadhu-sastra in mutual agreement. (I suggest Wikipedia for clarifying these terms.) As far as Im concerned your question has been answered in this way.[/quote]
That is not straw but a logical inference. I must capitulate, accept the authority or not discuss. You said nothing about sadhu-sastra. So I didnt twist that around.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote]
"harer nama harer nama
harer namaiva kevalam
kalau nasty eva nasty eva
nasty eva gatir anyatha"

In this age of quarrel and hypocrisy, the only means of deliverance is the chanting of the holy names of the Lord. There is no other way. There is no other way. There is no other way.[/quote]
You answered yourself. However only brahmanas are normally given this form of Holy name, Gayatri. Are you saying gayatri is not a holy name?[/quote]
No that inference is illogical. What I question is the NECESSITY of chanting Gayatri.

Discussions like this are very frustrating. We started with a question posing a reasonable doubt. It was met with personal attacks that eventually turned into "you dont accept Srila Prabhupada," apparently because of a difference in understanding Srila Prabhupadas statements. Such an accusation can be very hurtful. Evidence is presented on both sides, but there seems to be little acknowledgement of the other sides points. It only leads to divisiveness. I know Ive been becoming frustrtated enough with this forum that Ive been considering whether to forgo these talks.

I know that brahmana initiation helps. Who would not think so? But is it a requirement, in other words, is it essential? Cbrahma has presented good evidence to the contrary, and he does not deserve the disrespect hes getting here.

Prabhupada: Not that a Sudra man is by force become a brahmana. You cannot improve. That is not possible. But even if he remains a sudra and does accordingly, he will get the same position as devotee. Sva-karmana tam abhyarcya sam... Hell get the perfection. At the present moment the idea is: if one remains a sudra, then he cannot get perfection. No. Even a sudra can get perfection provided he does the work of a sudra perfectly.
Hari-Sauri: For Krsna.
Prabhupada: Therefore why a sudra artificially should be a brahmana? Let him remain a sudra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of sudra, hell also be as good as a brahmana.

The first quality of a brahmana listed in B.g. 18.42 is "peacefulness." A ksatriya cannot be peaceful; it contradicts his duty. It is not to say that he practices violence for fun and pleasure, but violence is necessary sometimes. The context of Bhagavad-gita is Krishna telling Arjuna to fight. Arjuna begins by wanting to adopt the role of a brahmana, and Krishna tells him that it would be a mistake. Arjuna is not a brahmana by birth, by initiation, or by quality. Yet who would say that he has no relation with Krishna?

The notion that only brahmanas get to go back to Godhead totally undermines the whole varnasrama system. It motivates even poorly qualified persons aspire for the brahmana position, while other duties such as the protection of women, children, and the elderly are neglected. Farming is neglected, so the brahmanas buy milk and vegetables from cow killers. Even at Gita-nagari, a "farm community," thats the standard. There are numerous initiated brahmanas (who work for karmi institutions for a salary, but presumably chant Gayatri); but the cows stand in an open field all year with no shelter. Hay fields on the Dhama are rented to a cow-killer, and most of the bhoga comes from a karmi farm or the store. Several good farmer devotee families have been driven out for failing to live up to the brahmana standard although farmers by nature.

Varnasrama means a cooperation of people of all kinds of bodily makeup for the purpose of serving Krishna, and this makes everyone a devotee eligable to go back to Godhead, even the sudras who are simply helping the other devotees. As Srila Prabhupada said, "But even if he remains a sudra, hes a Vaisnava." How can anyone dare say that "Even though you are a Vaisnava, chanting Hare Krishna for 16 rounds and abstaining from sinful life, because you have the body and service of a sudra you cannot go back to Godhead"?

[quote][cite] cbrahma:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote]
"harer nama harer nama
harer namaiva kevalam
kalau nasty eva nasty eva
nasty eva gatir anyatha"

In this age of quarrel and hypocrisy, the only means of deliverance is the chanting of the holy names of the Lord. There is no other way. There is no other way. There is no other way.[/quote]
You answered yourself. However only brahmanas are normally given this form of Holy name, Gayatri. Are you saying gayatri is not a holy name?[/quote]
No that inference is illogical. What I question is the NECESSITY of chanting Gayatri.[/quote] There is no necessity if you are not a brahmana. If you are necessity is because... because you spiritual master Srila Prabhupada wanted you to chant it. Just as there is no necessity to chant sannyasa mantra if you are not one.

Actually, the conversation with Srila Prabhupada quoted above is very interesting from several angles. One if them is whether SP is proposing a MAJOR change to his movement. Thus far pretty much all devotees were expected to get second initiation, and get Gayatri mantra. After all this was the system SP himself introduced: elevating less-than-sudras to the level of a brahmana (elegible to serve Deity in the temple) and beyond (Vaishnava). However, this system clearly was NOT working, at least not for everyone. So SP is proposing a NEW system, where only those truly exhibiting proper qualifications get the Gayatri mantra.

Thus it is clear that Gayatri is not required for some devotees, but that is not the same as saying that Gayatri mantra is not required in general. As CCD pointed out: it is required if you are of the higher varna (in vedic culture not only brahmanas receive Gayatri, but also kshatriyas and vaishyas).

This clearly shows that SP consider it essential to change things in his approach that were not producing proper results. The same was with sannyasa ashram that SP wanted to stop.

BTW... that change SP wanted implemented (stoping second initiations to sudra type devotees) has not yet been implemented in our movement. And the sannyasa business continues as before, with more falldowns and more opportunistic devotees using it to obtain high standard of material life. See one example here: http://www.chakra.org/discussions/ODiscDec04_08.html

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite]Thus it is clear that Gayatri is not required for some devotees, but that is not the same as saying that Gayatri mantra is not required in general. As CCD pointed out: it is required if you are of the higher varna (in vedic culture not only brahmanas receive Gayatri, but also kshatriyas and vaishyas).

[/quote]
It is not at all clear that SP wanted kshatriyas and vaishyas to be initiated into Gayatri. Where do you get this?

That is the vedic varnasrama system. I assume SP would not change that.

If only brahmanas get Gayatri it is more like the Christian churchianity system, where there is clear distinction between clergy and laity. There are very few true brahmanas in Iskcon. And who would decide who is a brahmana? Pretending to be a brahmana or a sannyasi only to have others maintain you would still be a problem.

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite]Discussions like this are very frustrating. We started with a question posing a reasonable doubt. It was met with personal attacks that eventually turned into "you dont accept Srila Prabhupada," apparently because of a difference in understanding Srila Prabhupadas statements. Such an accusation can be very hurtful. Evidence is presented on both sides, but there seems to be little acknowledgement of the other sides points. It only leads to divisiveness. I know Ive been becoming frustrtated enough with this forum that Ive been considering whether to forgo these talks.[/quote]
=================

Pandu, you are overcomplicating the matter. It is very simple though. There is one thing only: getting the soul to serve Krsna.

When you view on this one single thing from different perspectives, you get different views, but they are actually one and the same thing.

You dont need brahmana initiation to go BTG, but you need brahminical qualities. But qualities develop automatically with devotional service. So you really do not even need qualities, you just need to love Krsna, and all will be fine. And while loving Krsna, you serve him, first as a deity. And to serve deity properly, you need brahmana initiation. But you do not need it really, you just need it to perform your service the way Krsna prefers. Or you can serve devotees who serve Krsna in ways, where gayatri initiation is not needed, like milking cows or plowing fields. But when you want to touch Deity, with love, or cook for Deity, you can only do it the way Krsna wants - having brahmana intitation.

And Gopal gayatri, as mentioned by ccd; thats for later on. We will know, when we will need it, dont worry. We will need it more than air, and we will get it. Krsna will take care. But while we still think we do not need it, we actually do not need it, because we are not yet there, where it would be needed. So we can do without just fine.

Its like driving with a car towards mountains in winter time, like if you go skiing or something.... You start on dry road in the city, and you dont need wheel chains in beginning. But as you go higher, there is snow on the road, and if you dont put chains on wheels, eventually you will be stuck in snow. But it is not that you absolutely need chains to drive - you can drive just fine within the city, where roads are clean, go shopping and to temple and stuff.... But when you move in certain direction, that has certain requirements, you know exactly when it is time to put chains on wheels; it becomes clear as anything, you cannot miss it. :)

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite]That is the vedic varnasrama system. I assume SP would not change that.

If only brahmanas get Gayatri it is more like the Christian churchianity system, where there is clear distinction between clergy and laity. There are very few true brahmanas in Iskcon. And who would decide who is a brahmana? Pretending to be a brahmana or a sannyasi only to have others maintain you would still be a problem.[/quote]
Well he gave no indication of some kind of diksa ceremony. Its the institutional aspect of formal initiation that causes the difficulty when somebody falls down. It is a bit of a scandal and just reiterates the whole issue of whether Gayatri is neccesary for the bhakti process.

[quote][cite] Giri-nayaka das:[/cite][quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite]Discussions like this are very frustrating. We started with a question posing a reasonable doubt. It was met with personal attacks that eventually turned into "you dont accept Srila Prabhupada," apparently because of a difference in understanding Srila Prabhupadas statements. Such an accusation can be very hurtful. Evidence is presented on both sides, but there seems to be little acknowledgement of the other sides points. It only leads to divisiveness. I know Ive been becoming frustrtated enough with this forum that Ive been considering whether to forgo these talks.[/quote]
=================

Pandu, you are overcomplicating the matter. It is very simple though. There is one thing only: getting the soul to serve Krsna.

When you view on this one single thing from different perspectives, you get different views, but they are actually one and the same thing.

You dont need brahmana initiation to go BTG, but you need brahminical qualities. But qualities develop automatically with devotional service. So you really do not even need qualities, you just need to love Krsna, and all will be fine. And while loving Krsna, you serve him, first as a deity. And to serve deity properly, you need brahmana initiation. But you do not need it really, you just need it to perform your service the way Krsna prefers. Or you can serve devotees who serve Krsna in ways, where gayatri initiation is not needed, like milking cows or plowing fields. But when you want to touch Deity, with love, or cook for Deity, you can only do it the way Krsna wants - having brahmana intitation.

And Gopal gayatri, as mentioned by ccd; thats for later on. We will know, when we will need it, dont worry. We will need it more than air, and we will get it. Krsna will take care. But while we still think we do not need it, we actually do not need it, because we are not yet there, where it would be needed. So we can do without just fine.

Its like driving with a car towards mountains in winter time, like if you go skiing or something.... You start on dry road in the city, and you dont need wheel chains in beginning. But as you go higher, there is snow on the road, and if you dont put chains on wheels, eventually you will be stuck in snow. But it is not that you absolutely need chains to drive - you can drive just fine within the city, where roads are clean, go shopping and to temple and stuff.... But when you move in certain direction, that has certain requirements, you know exactly when it is time to put chains on wheels; it becomes clear as anything, you cannot miss it. :)[/quote]
So if you dont have the brahmana initiation you dont have to offer your food.

cbrahma, you lack the basic knowledge yet you have to make conclusions and proclamations. Beats me. All SP books are available online and Wikipedia has mostly good articles on Vedic topics. Check out also those on logical arguments.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]cbrahma, you lack the basic knowledge yet you have to make conclusions and proclamations. Beats me. All SP books are available online and Wikipedia has mostly good articles on Vedic topics. Check out also those on logical arguments.[/quote]
Ive read THE BOOKS. You are speculating. Knowledge should be rational. Its supposed to be a science right? Blind acceptance is not science.

[quote][cite] cbrahma:[/cite]
Well he gave no indication of some kind of diksa ceremony.[/quote]

Oh, really? Initially, Srila Prabhupada performed diksa ceremonies himself and later he gave very specific instructions to his disciples regarding such ceremonies, down to the dye pattern on the sacrificial altar for agnihotra - long time ago I even saw copies of his handwritten notes on this subject.

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite][quote][cite] cbrahma:[/cite]
Well he gave no indication of some kind of diksa ceremony.[/quote]

Oh, really? Initially, Srila Prabhupada performed diksa ceremonies himself and later he gave very specific instructions to his disciples regarding such ceremonies, down to the dye pattern on the sacrificial altar for agnihotra - long time ago I even saw copies of his handwritten notes on this subject.[/quote]
Not for ksatriyas and vayshas

Well, he initially gave that diksa ceremony to all new devotees, even those who were definitely not brahmanas.

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite]Well, he initially gave that diksa ceremony to all new devotees, even those who were definitely not brahmanas.[/quote] He even gave it to girls:-) I mean brahma gayatri was not given to girls before... The circumstances of this are described in Boston Brahmanas essay.

SP liked to use very contrasting examples in his preaching, like comparing sudras and brahmanas seen it the above cited conversation. Historically, Gaudiya Vaishnavas rejected sacred thread and many other external varna designations. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta brought them back in a bold experiment, continued and expanded by Srila Prabhupada. Nothing in that experimental system is cut in stone or not subject to adjustment. Prabhupadas intent was clearly one of spreading KC without making mockery out of traditional elements such as sannyasa, diksa, or varnashrama, using what is favorable and rejecting what does not work. It was a dynamic model, not some perfect and immutable paradigm for the next 10,000 years.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite]Well, he initially gave that diksa ceremony to all new devotees, even those who were definitely not brahmanas.[/quote] He even gave it to girls:-) I mean brahma gayatri was not given to girls before... The circumstances of this are described in Boston Brahmanas essay.[/quote]

As far as I know in our tradition (including Gaudiya Matha) ladies were receiving the Gayatri mantras, but the mantra lines were somewhat different (one difference was the absence of the brahma savitri line). SP gave both men and women the same mantras.

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite]SP liked to use very contrasting examples in his preaching, like comparing sudras and brahmanas seen in the above cited conversation. Historically, Gaudiya Vaishnavas rejected sacred thread and many other external varna designations.[/quote] Only by advanced Vaishnavas who took on babaji status. Siddhanta sarasvati changed that to his babajis who wore threads. He himself started chanting the brahma gayatri and giving it to others (but not women). So why you need gayatri, to follow BSST!

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite]Well, he initially gave that diksa ceremony to all new devotees, even those who were definitely not brahmanas.[/quote][quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite]Well, he initially gave that diksa ceremony to all new devotees, even those who were definitely not brahmanas.[/quote]
There was no special Ksatrya vs. vaisya diksa ceremony. So in the proposed implementation of varna-ashrama it certainly isnt obvious thats what he planned.

[quote][cite] cbrahma:[/cite]There was no special Ksatrya vs. vaisya diksa ceremony. So in the proposed implementation of varna-ashrama it certainly isnt obvious thats what he planned.[/quote]

I agree. There was nothing obvious about that plan. Still, there was also no indication that SP wanted to make some drastic changes to the vedic varnashrama model. Why would he want to do that anyway? SP did not implement the varnashrama model in the sense of dividing his disciples according to their varna, thus we do not have his model for treating kshatriyas and vaishyas in Iskcon when it comes to diksa mantras.

[quote][cite] cbrahma:[/cite]There was no special Ksatrya vs. vaisya diksa ceremony. So in the proposed implementation of varna-ashrama it certainly isnt obvious thats what he planned.[/quote]

Look at this quote for example:

Prabhupada: "Therefore why a sudra artificially should be a brahmana? Let him remain a sudra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of sudra, hell also be as good as a brahmana. " ----

Did SP present his own "rules and regulation of sudra" anywhere in his writings? No, he did not. He used the standard traditional varnashrama rules for sudras, adding Krsna conscious practices to that traditional model. That was his idea across the board. And that is why I am assuming that he would want kshatriyas and vaishyas get diksa initiations, just like it was done in the traditional varnashrama.

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite][quote][cite] cbrahma:[/cite]There was no special Ksatrya vs. vaisya diksa ceremony. So in the proposed implementation of varna-ashrama it certainly isnt obvious thats what he planned.[/quote]

Look at this quote for example:

Prabhupada: "Therefore why a sudra artificially should be a brahmana? Let him remain a sudra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of sudra, hell also be as good as a brahmana. " ----

Did SP present his own "rules and regulation of sudra" anywhere in his writings? No, he did not. He used the standard traditional varnashrama rules for sudras, adding Krsna conscious practices to that traditional model. That was his idea across the board. And that is why I am assuming that he would want kshatriyas and vaishyas get diksa initiations, just like it was done in the traditional varnashrama.[/quote]
Whether vaiysyas get gayatri or not is not essential here, essential is that for a brahmana gayatri japa is required.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite][quote][cite] cbrahma:[/cite]There was no special Ksatrya vs. vaisya diksa ceremony. So in the proposed implementation of varna-ashrama it certainly isnt obvious thats what he planned.[/quote]

Look at this quote for example:

Prabhupada: "Therefore why a sudra artificially should be a brahmana? Let him remain a sudra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of sudra, hell also be as good as a brahmana. " ----

Did SP present his own "rules and regulation of sudra" anywhere in his writings? No, he did not. He used the standard traditional varnashrama rules for sudras, adding Krsna conscious practices to that traditional model. That was his idea across the board. And that is why I am assuming that he would want kshatriyas and vaishyas get diksa initiations, just like it was done in the traditional varnashrama.[/quote]
Whether vaiysyas get gayatri or not is not essential here, essential is that for a brahmana gayatri japa is required.[/quote]
And yet brahamana is a material designation.

[quote][cite] cbrahma:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite][quote][cite] cbrahma:[/cite]There was no special Ksatrya vs. vaisya diksa ceremony. So in the proposed implementation of varna-ashrama it certainly isnt obvious thats what he planned.[/quote]

Look at this quote for example:

Prabhupada: "Therefore why a sudra artificially should be a brahmana? Let him remain a sudra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of sudra, hell also be as good as a brahmana. " ----

Did SP present his own "rules and regulation of sudra" anywhere in his writings? No, he did not. He used the standard traditional varnashrama rules for sudras, adding Krsna conscious practices to that traditional model. That was his idea across the board. And that is why I am assuming that he would want kshatriyas and vaishyas get diksa initiations, just like it was done in the traditional varnashrama.[/quote]
Whether vaiysyas get gayatri or not is not essential here, essential is that for a brahmana gayatri japa is required.[/quote]
And yet brahamana is a material designation.[/quote]
Absolutely, however for years this excuse was used by pseudo vaisnavas who would behave like monkeys, but claim to be above material designations. So chant you gayatri until you get a body free from such designations.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote][cite] cbrahma:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite][quote][cite] cbrahma:[/cite]There was no special Ksatrya vs. vaisya diksa ceremony. So in the proposed implementation of varna-ashrama it certainly isnt obvious thats what he planned.[/quote]

Look at this quote for example:

Prabhupada: "Therefore why a sudra artificially should be a brahmana? Let him remain a sudra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of sudra, hell also be as good as a brahmana. " ----

Did SP present his own "rules and regulation of sudra" anywhere in his writings? No, he did not. He used the standard traditional varnashrama rules for sudras, adding Krsna conscious practices to that traditional model. That was his idea across the board. And that is why I am assuming that he would want kshatriyas and vaishyas get diksa initiations, just like it was done in the traditional varnashrama.[/quote]
Whether vaiysyas get gayatri or not is not essential here, essential is that for a brahmana gayatri japa is required.[/quote]
And yet brahamana is a material designation.[/quote]
Absolutely, however for years this excuse was used by pseudo vaisnavas who would behave like monkeys, but claim to be above material designations. So chant you gayatri until you get a body free from such designations.[/quote]
Who ever said anything about being above the material? Its simply a question of how the material can reach above itself.
To use an animal metaphor, the obsessive attention to such material details is like a trained pigeon pecking on cue.

[quote][cite] cbrahma:[/cite] Its simply a question of how the material can reach above itself.
To use an animal metaphor, the obsessive attention to such material details is like a trained pigeon pecking on cue.[/quote] Good then you are not confused anymore:

[quote][cite] cbrahma:[/cite]Since the yuga dharma is supposed to be the Maha-Mantra - why is there this supposed requirement to take the brahminical initiation, the diksa, which for all intents and purposes transfers the Gayatri mantra?
This is totally confusing to me.[/quote]

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote][cite] cbrahma:[/cite] Its simply a question of how the material can reach above itself.
To use an animal metaphor, the obsessive attention to such material details is like a trained pigeon pecking on cue.[/quote] Good then you are not confused anymore:

[quote][cite] cbrahma:[/cite]Since the yuga dharma is supposed to be the Maha-Mantra - why is there this supposed requirement to take the brahminical initiation, the diksa, which for all intents and purposes transfers the Gayatri mantra?
This is totally confusing to me.[/quote][/quote]
So the conclusion is?
??? Please clarify your logical argument.
My logic tells me its not necessary.

[quote][cite] cbrahma:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote][cite] cbrahma:[/cite] Its simply a question of how the material can reach above itself.
To use an animal metaphor, the obsessive attention to such material details is like a trained pigeon pecking on cue.[/quote] Good then you are not confused anymore:

[quote][cite] cbrahma:[/cite]Since the yuga dharma is supposed to be the Maha-Mantra - why is there this supposed requirement to take the brahminical initiation, the diksa, which for all intents and purposes transfers the Gayatri mantra?
This is totally confusing to me.[/quote][/quote]
So the conclusion is?
??? Please clarify your logical argument.
My logic tells me its not necessary.[/quote]
Your logic is correct, it is only for brahmanas (or arguably for other higher varnas in Vedic varnasrama). Definitely not for you.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote][cite] cbrahma:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote][cite] cbrahma:[/cite] Its simply a question of how the material can reach above itself.
To use an animal metaphor, the obsessive attention to such material details is like a trained pigeon pecking on cue.[/quote] Good then you are not confused anymore:

[quote][cite] cbrahma:[/cite]Since the yuga dharma is supposed to be the Maha-Mantra - why is there this supposed requirement to take the brahminical initiation, the diksa, which for all intents and purposes transfers the Gayatri mantra?
This is totally confusing to me.[/quote][/quote]
So the conclusion is?
??? Please clarify your logical argument.
My logic tells me its not necessary.[/quote]
Your logic is correct, it is only for brahmanas (or arguably for other higher varnas in Vedic varnasrama). Definitely not for you.[/quote]
The question, and logic was intended generally. Your personal attack is small-minded and petty but to be expected, since you obviously dont have the intellectual capital. Uh - brahmanas are supposed to be ..uh..the intellectuals.

[quote][cite] cbrahma:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote][cite] cbrahma:[/cite]
So the conclusion is?
??? Please clarify your logical argument.
My logic tells me its not necessary.[/quote]
Your logic is correct, it is only for brahmanas (or arguably for other higher varnas in Vedic varnasrama). Definitely not for you.[/quote]
The question, and logic was intended generally. Your personal attack is small-minded and petty but to be expected, since you obviously dont have the intellectual capital. Uh - brahmanas are supposed to be ..uh..the intellectuals.[/quote]
Great so we have it confirmed by the person posing to have the question that there is a difference between brahmanas and not brahmanas:-) Another reason to chant gayatri if anything to calm down (or is it the ksatriyas gayatri..)

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote][cite] cbrahma:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote][cite] cbrahma:[/cite]
So the conclusion is?
??? Please clarify your logical argument.
My logic tells me its not necessary.[/quote]
Your logic is correct, it is only for brahmanas (or arguably for other higher varnas in Vedic varnasrama). Definitely not for you.[/quote]
The question, and logic was intended generally. Your personal attack is small-minded and petty but to be expected, since you obviously dont have the intellectual capital. Uh - brahmanas are supposed to be ..uh..the intellectuals.[/quote]
Great so we have it confirmed by the person posing to have the question that there is a difference between brahmanas and not brahmanas:-) Another reason to chant gayatri if anything to calm down (or is it the ksatriyas gayatri..)[/quote]
Another dodge.