Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

[quote][cite] cbrahma:[/cite]Every other ISCKON lecture seems to be about the path of renunciation... l....?[/quote] Renunciation is when you do not listen to every other of these lectures.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote][cite] cbrahma:[/cite]Every other ISCKON lecture seems to be about the path of renunciation... l....?[/quote] Renunciation is when you do not listen to every other of these lectures.[/quote]
??? I see so they are meaningless on their own.

The world doesnt just exist; it belongs to someone. As Isopanishad 1 states, "Everything animate or inanimate that is within the universe is controlled and owned by the Lord." Renunciation is simply acting on this realization. Whether a specific individual is actually renounced is something else.

Some atheists also have something that looks like renunciation, but actually it is frustration with the material condition. The desire for personal gratification is still present, but the observation reveals that the pursuit of pleasure simply leads to more suffering.

One cannot stop there, though. Desire is an eternal feature of the soul, so although desire can be briefly subdued, it cannot be destroyed. It must be purified. The purification of desire is a part of bhakti, giving up ones own separate desires for the sake of serving Krishnas pleasure instead. That is actually our natural condition. Renunciation is giving up the unnatural condition that we have been immersed in since time immemorial. It is in one sense effortless and also the most difficult thing to do. I can write about it but not set the example. Hopefully someday.

Service is key because it is actual engagement in pleasing Krishna, and chanting is also service. Srila Prabhupada often said, "Service begins with the tongue." Everyone feels some pleasure upon hearing their name called with love, so of course Krishna is also pleased by this. So we chant Hare Krishna.

When the goal and the method are the same, they are achieved by doing it. Practice, try to improve, and gradually become perfect. Hare Krishna.

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite] Renunciation is giving up the unnatural condition that we have been immersed in since time immemorial. It is in one sense effortless and also the most difficult thing to do. I can write about it but not set the example. Hopefully someday.

Service is key because it is actual engagement in pleasing Krishna, and chanting is also service. Srila Prabhupada often said, "Service begins with the tongue." Everyone feels some pleasure upon hearing their name called with love, so of course Krishna is also pleased by this. So we chant Hare Krishna.

When the goal and the method are the same, they are achieved by doing it. Practice, try to improve, and gradually become perfect. Hare Krishna.[/quote]
What is unnattractive to me is the attitude that these preachers have - that they have achieved this pure state.
The definition of renunciation that you give, as natural desire vs. unnatural desire is not the usual one.
I agree that artificial renunciation, changing ones lifestyle or position does not change desire.
That this is achieved through service to the Lord - that it is for all intents and purposes synonomous with love, is the teaching of all major religions.
Paul says in Corinthians 13
[quote][cite]1 Corinthians
Chapter 13[/cite]If I speak in human and angelic tongues 2 but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal.
2
And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.
3
If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4
3 Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated,
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it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury,
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it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth.
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It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
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4 Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing.
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For we know partially and we prophesy partially,
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but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
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When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things.
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At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.
13
5 So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love. [/quote]

[quote][cite] cbrahma:[/cite]
The definition of renunciation that you give, as natural desire vs. unnatural desire is not the usual one.[/quote]

Srila Prabhupada sometimes gave the analogy that the soul in a material condition is an unnatural, incompatible arrangement, like a fish out of water. Due to maya we think that we can find happiness in material pursuits, trying to satisfy the senses of the material body, but that is not real happiness. The desire for happiness is natural, but genuine happiness cannot come in an incompatible situation. We are spiritual, and Krishna is spiritual, so our relationship should be with Him. Every living eitity is spiritual, but the spiritual self is the soul, not the body. We cannot have truly happy, loving, relationships with others unless Krishna is the center of it. Actually unless someone has real spiritual vision, one goes through so-called life in the material body without ever seeing another living entity. We see lifes shadow, but not life itself. Without loving Krishna, there is no real love at all, and no happiness, despite the temporary, partial relief of suffering that people think of as happiness. [br /][br /]
Considering that our material condition is unnatural and a source of misery, giving it up should be very easy. Only due to the influence of maya is our desire for material engagement perpetuated, and maya will not release us until we want only to serve Krishna. This appears somewhat paradoxical, like "I cannot get a job without experience, but how can I get experience unless I have a job?" The answer is that Lord Caitanya has made it easy, and Srila Prabhupada has continued along the same line. Like Srila Prabhupada explained a few times (for example, June 28, 1971) that the six gosvamis were appreciated by both classes of men, dhira and adhira, the wise and foolish. He says, "This Krishna-kirtana is so nice. It is dear to all classes of men." Of course there are also people who are inimical, and Arjuna says in Bhagavad-gita that the demons flee from the Holy Name, but still Krishnas name is so powerful that it acts gradually even on those who give resistance. There is also prasadam, which is so tasty. Actually everything about Krishna consciousness is very nice, although Srila Prabhupada has explained that our material condition is like jaundice making the sweet taste bitter. To eventually taste the sweet as sweet, we have to first taste the sweet as medicine.
[br /][br /]
As for others who seem to be faking a little, they dont need to be an obstacle for you. Maya is very expert at keeping us in illusion, and it is very tempting to pretend to be steady or otherwise more accomplished than one really is. I would try to forgive them for it and focus on my own development. Take inspiration from where one can get it, and become an inspiration for others who may be lacking. At least this is the advice I try to give to myself. Hare Krishna.

...renunciation means to avoid any sense gratification,whether sinful or not,that is easily attained without effort.

[quote][cite] hariharibol:[/cite]...renunciation means to avoid any sense gratification,whether sinful or not,that is easily attained without effort.[/quote]
Thats a new one. And to what purpose?

...to free ones self from material sense gratification,so one can go back to Godhead,its actualy very old

[quote][cite] hariharibol:[/cite]...to free ones self from material sense gratification,so one can go back to Godhead,its actualy very old[/quote] Its your definition thats new. Sense gratification is not the problem, merely the symptom. If freeing ones self from the senses were the problem - a sensory deprivation tank would do the trick - of course, psychologist have learned that such a shut down of physical senses induces psychosis. Unless you want to claim that liberation is psychosis you must see the sense gratification as the effect, not the cause of materialistic consciousness.

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati has listed the six opulences of KRSNA and he has used the term "dispassion" to describe the same quality that Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami has called "renunciation". if we understand that this is not an error in definition, then the two
terms, by HDG AC Bhaktivedanta Swamis definition, are interchangeable.

it is no wonder that to the passion crazed hippies that AC Bhaktivedanta found in the west, the concept of "dispassion" would have been too much for them to conceive.
"why Srila Prabhupada choose to change the wording?", when you see Him, ask Him, but He did it none the less. "dispassion" seems the more accurate term than what is currently sought by many as "renunciation", the perfection of their sojourn through the material atmosphere, and dispassion would include things like fighting with others or handling wealth WITHOUT ATTACHMENT. "renunciation", in some sectors, has come to mean false pretention that one can conduct these actions without attachment, and it would appear less than the stronger definition "dispassion".

..." a sensory deprivation tank would do the trick " that would be artificial renunciation,temporary and with no real lasting value.Sense gratification IS the problem,it means attachemnt to the gross material senses,and thus material bondage and the continuance of samsara

[quote][cite] hariharibol:[/cite]..." a sensory deprivation tank would do the trick " that would be artificial renunciation,temporary and with no real lasting value.Sense gratification IS the problem,it means attachemnt to the gross material senses,and thus material bondage and the continuance of samsara[/quote]

Well the senses are also temporary.
How could material senses be the problem when the jiva does not natively possess a material body?

They are a symptom. The disease is the refusal to serve God.

...your kidding me right ?

[quote][cite] hariharibol:[/cite]...your kidding me right ?[/quote]
Hardly. You must think this because you are not understanding the difference between cause and effect.

iow ahankara

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]iow ahankara[/quote]
Yes false ego has arisen why?

Krsna bahirmukha. CC 2.22.12, 2.24.136, etc.