Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

[quote][cite] cbrahma:[/cite]One hopes that the visitors must be intelligent enough to see through such crass manipulation. [/quote]

They do, and this is one of the reasons they do not come back. --- In our movement we have often re-defined time honored concepts such as humility, charity, truthfullnes, honesty, etc. to make them fit our particular needs of the moment. However, people in general are not fooled by these gimmicks.

> "Serving the devotees of ISKCON is serving Krsna".

And acc to Lord Siva Vaisnava seva is even better than Krsna seva:

aradhananam sarvesam visnoh ardhanam param
tasmad parataram devi tadiyanam samarcanam

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]> "Serving the devotees of ISKCON is serving Krsna".

And acc to Lord Siva Vaisnava seva is even better than Krsna seva:

aradhananam sarvesam visnoh ardhanam param
tasmad parataram devi tadiyanam samarcanam[/quote]
And according to Lord Caitanya a Vaisnava doesnt declare himself to be one.

A recurrent problem for us devotees is the application of the philosophy. You can rightly say that Vaishnavas are worshipable, but to include yourself is not correct.

So, there are points of view, when you speak about the philosophy in general and when you try to apply the philosophy out of context, or with a personal agenda.

For example I heard from a temple president in a lecture: "Lets face it, we hate Krishna". Literally.

Although in some respect envy, hate etc can be applied to the conditioned soul, the use given here was to make temple devotees surrender to the authority in question, making them feel unworthy of having any independent thought, action, etc.

Srila Prabhupada'b4s mood was the contrary: "We all love Krishna, but we are astray... we can revive our Krishna consciousness with this easy process", etc.

One is trying to help people to become devotees, having faith in their ultimate spiritual nature, the other is coming from the premise that we are all fallen and using the philosophy in a way to gain some sort of control or political power.

[quote][cite] mishra:[/cite]A recurrent problem for us devotees is the application of the philosophy. You can rightly say that Vaishnavas are worshipable, but to include yourself is not correct.

So, there are points of view, when you speak about the philosophy in general and when you try to apply the philosophy out of context, or with a personal agenda.

For example I heard from a temple president in a lecture: "Lets face it, we hate Krishna". Literally.

Although in some respect envy, hate etc can be applied to the conditioned soul, the use given here was to make temple devotees surrender to the authority in question, making them feel unworthy of having any independent thought, action, etc.

Srila Prabhupada'b4s mood was the contrary: "We all love Krishna, but we are astray... we can revive our Krishna consciousness with this easy process", etc.

One is trying to help people to become devotees, having faith in their ultimate spiritual nature, the other is coming from the premise that we are all fallen and using the philosophy in a way to gain some sort of control or political power.[/quote]
Devotees? Of what? Materialism?

You may know that "devotee" is anyone rendering devotional service and at the moment we are doing mixed devotional service, that is, under the modes of nature. Srimad Bhagavatam gives a recollection of the symptoms of those doing devotional service under sattva, rajas and tamo guna. Our goal is to at least be situated in sattva guna so that we may progress further to suddha bhakti. Those mainly in the mode of rajas tend to use political means to "scale up" the corporate ladder and have a hidden personal gain agenda. Still, devotees.

[quote][cite] mishra:[/cite]You may know that "devotee" is anyone rendering devotional service and at the moment we are doing mixed devotional service, that is, under the modes of nature. Srimad Bhagavatam gives a recollection of the symptoms of those doing devotional service under sattva, rajas and tamo guna. Our goal is to at least be situated in sattva guna so that we may progress further to suddha bhakti. Those mainly in the mode of rajas tend to use political means to "scale up" the corporate ladder and have a hidden personal gain agenda. Still, devotees.[/quote]
Devotional service defined as serving ISKCON of course, which in a corporate sense is literally self-serving.

Who said ISKCON? The facts are facts outside and inside any institution.
You project your personal misgivings all over the place. It is OK if helps you, but otherwise is quite annoying.

[quote][cite] mishra:[/cite]Who said ISKCON? The facts are facts outside and inside any institution.
You project your personal misgivings all over the place. It is OK if helps you, but otherwise is quite annoying.[/quote]
What are personal misgivings? Do you mean questions?

http://www.pariprashnena.com/discussion/66/2/did-nasa-go-to-the-moon-or-not/#Item_6

[quote][cite] mishra:[/cite]I can see now clearly that you have a different approach, being both of you scientists. In my preaching years I could experiment that and I accept my incapability to convince you as a fact.
My words always will be too simple for you, but remember not all people are scientist and need your level of detail. And there is no need to be a scientist to go back home back to Godhead.
You need to contact Bhaktivedanta Institute, they will be able to help to clear your doubts and special needs.
http://www.binstitute.org[/quote]

I agree with Misra, it seems obvious that you make some of your questions the springboards for attacks or to project your misgivings. I normally do not disagree with constructive criticism of any particular institution. But the tone of the question and how you respond to comments makes me wonder, are you considering your attitude a vaisnava attitude or a non-vaisnava attitude. Obviously you do not think its true that serving Vashnavas that are associated with ISKCON is serving Krishna and clearly this misgiving is not obvious to you, sadly I must add.

To say that "serving the devotees of the Lord is serving Krishna" is correct, as VEDA points out.

To say that "serving the devotees of the Lord who are found in ISKCON is serving Krishna" is correct, and I think this is the point, ideally, that the speaker wanted to make.

To say that "serving those who are devotees of ISKCON* is serving Krishna" (*devoted to ISKCON rather than to Krishna) is getting a little further from the absolute truth. ISKCON is an organization that is intended to promote and support devotion to Lord Krishna. Sometimes parts of that organization can be more or less aligned with that mission. In cases where it is aligned with the mission, ISKCON and Krishna are non-different. In cases where it is misaligned, it is not so clear, and we should be careful to make an intelligent distinction.

I think the answer to this question, btw, is YES.

There is a saying:

"Among brahmanas seniority is ascertained by learning,
among ksatriyas by power,
among vaisyas by wealth,
and among sudras alone by age"

I would perhaps add to this:

"And among Vaisnavas by humility"

In other words, the most advanced devotee should be the most humble: trnad api sunicena, taror iva sahisnuna.

Now, how you can measure that humility, if it is possible, is another thing. Arjuna was a Vaisnava, and humbly submitted himself to Krishna and took his instruction. After that he laid down the smack big time. I wonder how many enemies falling below his sword and arrows thought: "Wow, this guy is really humble!"

A follow-on question from this one might be then: "What is humility? And how do I get it?"

sitapati says: A follow-on question from this one might be then: "What is humility? And how do I get it?"
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Best to view what Srila Prabhupada says on this. Here is a bit:

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Humility means that one should not be anxious to have the satisfaction of being honored by others. The material conception of life makes us very eager to receive honor from others, but from the point of view of a man in perfect knowledge -- who knows that he is not this body -- anything, honor or dishonor, pertaining to this body is useless. One should not be hankering after this material deception. People are very anxious to be famous for their religion, and consequently sometimes it is found that without understanding the principles of religion one enters into some group which is not actually following religious principles and then wants to advertise himself as a religious mentor.
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Bg 13.8, Bg 13.9, Bg 13.10, Bg 13.11, Bg 13.12, Bg 13.8-12

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Actually, humility means "everything for the pleasure of God." What do we have that is truly ours, anyway? We inhabit this body for some years and enjoy whatever opulence may come with it, be it talent or riches or fame. But ultimately these are all gifts from the Supreme Lord, and He can bestow or restrict them at His will. We should know that all of our wonderful qualities are but tiny borrowed plumes from Gods magnificence.
>>> Ref. VedaBase => A crystal-clear look at one of the priceless ornaments of the transcendentalist.