Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

I would say that present state of things is very difficult and if possible devotees should home-school their children.

Today I found on sankirtan a mother and her child. The boy was about 7 years old, not more, and was holding a Playstaion game.

I asked him if he played a lot and he told me apart (he showed me the inside of the game box and he told me very much convinced, not just casual, he actually liked this (and he pointed to a "sex" label inside the game (some kind of printed classification inside the box.

The mother turned and she asked me what did he say and of course I was too embarrassed to say what the boy has just showed me. And he was not more than 7 yrs old. This is the result of "education".

Every education is meant to instill values which are basically two - dharmic and adharmic. Choice is ours.

Sometimes you have no choice. For example I am seventeen.I must finish my secondary school (preporatory to the university) for a diploma ( I am now in the fifth. last class is the sixth). And now I have very much interests in the Bhaktivedanta College. For a few weeks I maybe have to stay home. But in my country you have to go to school; its the law... Lucky for me that the age is till 16 years. And I am just past that age. I became seventeen begin july.

and did they make fun of you or you just kept secret that you are a hare krishna?

No. They wont interfere if they know that your past that age. Because according to the law I now may decide on my own wether I go to school or just work or something like that. :)

Maybe Ill be one of the few people to say that I think devotee children should go to karmi schools. Maybe I just havent been exposed to really degraded and bad association when I personally was in school not too long ago. But imho, devotee children need to be exposed to the material world as well. They might not be prahalad maharaj when in school, but good parenting definitely can instill a discerning nature so they know where the lines are. A healthy association with the congregation also helps. It might be really hard but this way if they can experience the difference...the higher taste in KC than in material enjoyment, then their KC is more fixed than ever.

But are schools good for ANY children for that matter?

Why Schools Dont Educate
http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/john_gatto.html

ah ok! When you put it that way.......I highly doubt the efficacy of the schooling system......oh well! kaliyuga...

more interesting quotes:
http://www.noogenesis.com/game_theory/Gatto/Gatto.html

Its true that in some schools (I say some because other really dont do any good) they teach children about material things. And when they eventually grow up and they go into ISKCON they develop a higher taste...

Non-Devotees AND devotees send kids to public schools because of one reason:

** So they will learn how to make money. **

All the rest about exposure to the real world, etc, is all secondary.

So can they do that without going to karmi school?

I will tell you the main reason why we send our children to the "slaughterhouse" (as Srila Prabhupada put it):

Society is forcing us to work like ass just to get housing, a little food and some commodities. The schools are children parkings!

> ** So they will learn how to make money. **
That for sure they wont learn in school. They will only learn how to be employees.

will learn to beg for a salary and die full of debts with a shudra mentality.
as abhiram says real education is how to use money not how to earn it

Schools are slaughterhouses for the mind. They are part of the plan to transform as into machines rather than god conscious human beings.

Its a matter of values and priorities. Im currently reading "Family Driven Faith", by Voddie Baucham, who I heard preaching last weekend in Atlanta. He homeschools his children and he explains why. His argument is powerful and convincing and you really need to read this book to experience it.

What it boils down to is this: people do not homeschool their children because its "too hard" (read: not important enough to them) and because they "want their children to be successful in the world" (read: they have higher priorities than devotional service).

I think that if you accept the service of caring for a child, then you should understand that the child is not yours, but is Krishnas and is simply entrusted into your care. Your service is to look after that child. You dont have anything else to do. You should structure the family life around that with the priority of forming a discipled Krishna-conscious human being. Not anything else.

As the Srimad Bhagavatam tells us: "One should not become a parent unless they are capable of delivering their dependent from the cycle of birth and death". Delegating the major portion of a childs time during their formative years to a non-devotional schooling system based around economic development and of questionable philosophical basis is not really such a good idea, I think.

Q: Should devotee children go to karmi schools?

A: Only if they want to learn to be karmis.

:-)

I see everyone has got very strong opinion about this matter. This topic is of great interest to me too, as I have a 4yo son who is due to go to school next year. I would like to ask, out of devotees who posted in this thread who actually has children of a school-going age and what option have you chosen for them?

i do have 2 school age children. Real problem is not to ascertain if homeschooling is better; it is by no means.
Problem is that you have to dedicate yourself to that, so you have to have time and serious commitment. Of course the rewards are immense.

Home schooling is on the other hand not that good either. Because you dont let the children communicate with other children. I dont have children yet I am 17. But if you dont let children communicate they will not be able to do discussions for example or to do this what we do. :)

My son is home schooled and he doesnt have any problem communicating. He discusses all the time with all kinds of people. He probably has a broader experience than most kids his age and interacts with a wider spectrum of people.

Most species of life that are social, socialize in the context of the family unit. The modern idea of schooling is a product of the industrial revolution, with its batch processing and mass production paradigm.

When you put kids into stratified association like that they frequently develop a disconnect with people of different ages and develop these insular peer groups which cut them off from support networks. Urmila devi dasi wrote a nice article about it in BTG a few years ago.

Being in a military like environment, with same age peers year after year, passing exams to remember things once and forget them forever, and having to please a complete stranger as your authority, doesnt seem to be the best one can offer to children.

For the record, school as we know it, was born in Prusia out of military need and was transplanted to USA and then to the whole world.
The first mandatory schools in America were opposed by entire towns on arms.

Hare Krishna! I have a different opinion probably due to my experience. My parents joined the movement in 1974, I was 5 and my older brother was 6. After sometime at the temple in Henry St. Brooklyn, my parents were pressured to send us to gurukula, at that time in Dallas. They were given an ultimatum to send us or leave because they werent surrendered enough. My parents felt like we were their responsibility and didnt feel comfortable sending us far away where they couldnt see us and check on us, to people they didnt even know. Needless to say we left. My parents sent us to public school, but before school we had arati and class. They preached to us and studied the scriptures with us and had us chant japa. After awhile we resumed going to the temple as congregation members and not as those that lived there. My parents had 2 more kids and today we are all initiated and are Krishna Conscious. We go to the temple still and serve there (I believe it or not teach Sunday School). I have 3 boys and I homeschool, but not because I think that they will be karmis if I send them to karmi schools. Ultimately wherever I send my children it is my responsibility to make sure that they are Krishna Conscious. I dont think that it is fair to say that a person doesnt homeschool their children because its not that important to them or that they have higher priorities than Krishna Consciousness. We have to raise adults that can get jobs to support the temple and then their families. Everyone will not be sankirtan devotees living in the temple. Homeschooling is very difficult and different for everyone because children are all different. Not everyone has the propensity to homeschool well, (I re-evaluate my ability to do so often) but everyone can try and supplement material education with Krishna Consciousness. My children also have lots of interaction with devotee children at temple as well as some karmi children at the park. But if we are raising children to continue the movement they have to be able to approach karmis with compassion and respect.

I dont think there is any one-size-fits-all solution here. This is going to be a long post because its a complicated issue.

It would be great if we could have successful gurukulas but even then, not all families or kids would be suited.

Learning is a difficult thing to be effectively systemized. By learning I dont mean having the kids sit in school and regurgitate information. I mean real learning where there is relevance to that childs particular psycho-physical inclinations. Why teach a sudra complex algebra? They may just get put off learning altogether which is a tragedy. They should get the opportunity to learn it - but not forced to learn it when its obviously not their thing.

Im a registered secondary school teacher (high school for US readers) and can say that the most progressive teaching theories accepted by mainstream educationalists today are highly individualistic and experiential in their approach. This is simply because the few real teachers that are circulating in the public school systems these days have noted that didactic teaching methods that dont take into account individual learning styles are ineffective. Why? Many reasons - but my opinion is primarily because they rarely inspire lifelong learning.

I know devotee parents whove sent their kids to the public schools and they are now grown up and practicing Krishna consciousness of their own volition. Their particular situation was that the parents (especially the mother) were very grounded and strong in their Krishna consciousness. The children (5 of them) came home to a happy and loving KC home.

Now its often the case that the parents send their kids to the devotee school to shove off the responsibility of raising their child onto the teachers. This is a situation I found myself when I taught in an ISKCON school last year. The parents stop chanting, reading and taking part in temple service. Then, in a contrived way, try to alleviate whatever guilt they may have with their kids by sending them to the devotee school (which is a pretty watered-down version of anything devotional anyway).

The school did have the advantage that there was some semblance of Krishna Consciousness in all of the kids lives. The sad thing was that often whatever inspiration I could invoke for the kids spiritual lives would be virtually extinguished when they would return home to television, secular media and little to no Krishna consciousness. (sometimes the parents have even descended into substance abuse and alcoholism)

Theres so much more I could say here but the important point, as already mentioned by Sita-pati Prabhu, is that when we have kids we have to accept that raising them to be Krishna conscious is our number one priority. How we go about that is a parenting decision we have to make but an extremely important one. The most important consideration is what we model as parents - that more than anything will determine what they learn. We also have to be willing to adjust our lifestyle accordingly so that the entire family at least has the opportunity and support to progress in their spiritual lives. Otherwise I accept what Lord Rsabhdeva says in 5th Canto - dont have kids.

Maybe the parents are the ones that need education and not the children.

Exactly. Someone said that if you want to educate a child you have to start with his grandmother. Sounds pretty much like establishing varnasrama to me.

My parents are Prabhupada disciples and I went to karmi schools my whole life. In my experience which school you goes to matters less than your home life. If you have a dysfunctional family life you will more than likely become more attracted to the regular karmi lifestyle, whether you go to gurukula or not. If you have a loving, supportive, devotional, and healthy family life, you will not be as infulenced (at least in the long term) by others lifestyles at school.

I know very few devotee children, gurukula educated or not, that are seriously taking up Krsna consciousness, and those that do come from both backgrounds.

I like this saying ."Never let schooling interfere with your education"...

How will we ever be able to bring Krsna consciousness to the big masses of people as long as we maintain a safe distance and continue to think in terms of "we and them" or "the devotees and the karmis/non-devotees"? We have to discriminate but we shouldnt separate.

Prahlada Maharaja also went to karmi school, he didnt become a karmi.

It is better to maintain a safe distance for youngsters. Youngsters are very impressionable, everything is sinking in and will stay with them for life. Basically the impression from being in a karmi school is that karmi lifestyle is ok. There are many people who homeschool who are not devotes. Plus Prabhupada recommended gurukula, so isnt that quite a safe distance.

If karmi school is the best that can be done than ok. Apparently it is better than sending your children to a gurukula where they will be abused. But it is not the ideal. The ideal is a Krishna Conscious education. It is just that we cannot figure out what that is. How much material vs spiritual knowledge should they have. And peoples faith is different. Some congregation members will only want to send to karmi school. Some devotees who have spent more time in the temple may be more convinced of the necessity for separating their children from the mass of people.

There is no big feat for a child to "fit in" to the mass of people. Having them segregated when they are young will not cause them any harm or make it difficult to fit in later. I think that is silly. Anyway look at the Ravi Gupta and his brother who where homeschooled in Idaho. They graduated from college when they were 18 I think? They have no problem fitting in. I think he wore tilak everyday to college. Can you imagine him doing that if he went to karmi school and was indoctrinated there?

Anyway you have to indoctrinate your children, the glass is empty. What do you want to fill it with?

Shouldnt we give more credit to Krsna or destiny?
"The glass is empty", can we, insignificant beings, decide where it will be filled with?
How much power do we have over our children? How much power do we have over our own mind?
I would rather say; be practical, desire the best, set the best example (thats where responsibility fits in) and leave the rest in Krsnas/destinys hands.

>How will we ever be able to bring Krsna consciousness to the big masses of people as long as we maintain a safe distance and continue to think in terms of "we and them" or "the devotees and the karmis/non-devotees"? We have to discriminate but we shouldnt separate.
Prahlada Maharaja also went to karmi school, he didnt become a karmi.

Being able to tell devotees from non-devotees, and see the different levels of devotees is vital for our advancement in Krishna consciousness. That is how we choose our association. However, seeing materialistic people, or other devotees as inferior to ourselves is a kanistha mentality. Advanced devotees always realize their insignificant position as an infinitesemal part and parcel of the Lord, one of the billions of other infinitesemal parts and parcels, all eternal servants of Krishna. Knowing this is the real knowledge and brings about humility and compassion.

In Nectar of Instruction, verse two, Srila Rupa Goswami lists six things unfavourable for our devotional service, one of them being "associating with worldly-minded persons who are not interested in Krishna consciousness".

In purport Srila Prabhupada explains:

"Jana-sanga refers to associating with persons not interested in Krsna consciousness. One should strictly avoid such association. Srila Narottama dasa Thakura has therefore advised us to live only in the association of Krsna conscious devotees (bhakta-sane v?sa). One should always engage in the service of the Lord in the association of the Lords devotees. Association with those engaged in a similar line of business is very conducive to advancement in that business. Consequently materialistic persons form various associations and clubs to enhance their endeavors. For example, in the business world we find such institutions as the stock exchange and chamber of commerce. Similarly, we have established the International Society for Krishna Consciousness to give people an opportunity to associate with those who have not forgotten Krsna. This spiritual association offered by our ISKCON movement is increasing day by day. Many people from different parts of the world are joining this Society to awaken their dormant Krsna consciousness."

Devotee children going to karmi schools certainly find themselves amidst such undesirable association, and unless they are mahabhagavatas like Prahlada Maharaja is, the chances of them being influenced by it are pretty high. School is a huge part of kids social life, they make friends there and take part in many social engagements like sports, parties, field trips etc etc. Such rubbing shoulders with materialists can undoubtedly have an adverse effect on any devotee. Also there is a psychological need to "fit in", so as they are growing up they might alter their behaviour to feel accepted by a group of peers and society in the whole. That is why I personally think that it is healthier for devotee children to go to gurukula, if there is one available locally, as it could provide the sense of belonging to the devotee community.

Of course, Krishna conscious atmosphere in the family is the most important factor, as it is a well-known fact that example teaches better than instruction.

Saying all this, one should look at their individual situation. There may be reasons why sending a child to Gurukula wouldnt be practical - non-availability, for example...

I have some friends who are about to have children but are afraid of schools. If they have children where are they going to send them? They have to pay the house so both work and of course that doesnt leave them with time to homeschool.
I guess many are in the same situation.

> "The glass is empty", can we, insignificant beings, decide where it will be filled with?
> How much power do we have over our children? How much power do we have over our own mind?
> I would rather say; be practical, desire the best, set the best example (thats where responsibility fits in) and leave the rest in Krsnas/destinys hands.

Yes if you feel unqualified to give children Krishna Consciousness then dont have children. That is what the shastra says.

Dear Prabhus,

I found many of the comments in this forum quite valuable. Particularly those of a youngster (and others in that line) emphazising the fact that the situaltion at home is essential for the wellbeing of the children (them being in a gurukula or not). There is a lot to consider in this area and there are plenty of material that support the different choices.

We need to be careful about what we take in consideration in making our choices, viewing not only independent quotes, but the whole issue in context. Srila Prabhupada himself took up karmi education in his youth, but at home there was practically a full fledged temple. Of course, he did recommend gurukulas, which many (or most) have failed creating a serious impresion in the minds of the devotees families. It would be ideal to have functional (and accountable) gurukulas in every location (or some form of devotional schools), but that is not a reality for most of devotees. I trust that any serious devotee makes his/her decision in their chilrens education considering time, place and circumstances and with the purpose of providing the best they can (in every sense) for their spiritual wellbeing.

At this stage I think that we need to concentrate in the consciousness of the family and the settings of the home environment. Whether one decides to do home schooling or some form of gurukuling thats fine. However, we need to be careful in not boasting absolutes or know better attitudes which we have seen a lot in the past with many embarrasing results. Respect and humility is an essential part of our culture and of our educational parameters.

If someone is unqualified, the solution is to obtain advice from those who are more qualified and/or experienced. Gurukulas, homeschools or karmi schools they all have their share of deficiencies, the essential point is whats going on at home. If we (families) are able to maintain and develop our Krishna Consciousness, this will enable us to develop future projects that will fulfil the education objectives of Srila Prabhupada.

Hare Kirshna.

interesting article here:

http://www.dandavats.com/?p=4035