Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

Prabhup'e4da: He is being purified himself?
Devotee (3):. Yes.
Prabhup'e4da: So we have to take little patience. That is [internet] preaching work. Dont be impatient. Let us do our duty on behalf of Krsna. Even the result is not very appreciable, still we have to do it.

750523cc.mel A small problem is that youve added the word internet...

One cant do bodily service online, etc.

Why did you add the word "internet" to the quote?

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]One cant do bodily service online, etc.[/quote]

Is there a difference? Do we still get the same spiritual benefits from virtual service compared to bodily service?

Hrdayananda das Goswami:: Well, God does not directly take part in the material creation. He simply created...
Prabhupada: Thats all right, but He creates by His energy. Just like I am creating this institution, but I am not doing directly, but my men or my assistants, they are doing it. (sound like Skype) What is this sound?
Tamala Krsna Goswmai: Intercom.
Prabhupada: So why this intercom? Internet?
Hrdayananda das Goswami: To speak from one room to another.
Tamala Krsna Goswami: It connects the pujari room and... It connects the pujari room, the office, your secretary, and up here, Bhavananda Maharaja.
Prabhupada: [break]

Virtually one can serve by mind and words, not by body. So therere benefits but also a difference.

--

SP didnt say internet, thats your wishful thinking:

Tam'e4la K'e5'f1'eba: Intercom.
Prabhup'e4da: So why this intercom? Inter...?
H'e5day'e4nanda: To speak from one room to another.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite].
Prabhup'e4da: So why this intercom? Inter....[/quote]

Thanks. You were there I guess. What did he say? If he never said internet, where will we get an answer to this question?

Im finding these quotes amusing as satire, considering some devotees real attempts to put words into Srila Prabhupadas mouth.

Also, I wonder about this statement:
"One cant do bodily service online, etc."

Whats meant by "bodily service" here? Can anyone engage in any kind of preaching without using their body? Who can respond to questions here without engaging the body?

You can try listening to the tape.

By bodily service I meant serving prasadam, etc.
Words (vaca) are in a different category than body (prana, SB 10.22.36).

Im sorry but I dont get it, and SB 10.22.36 (http://vedabase.net/sb/10/22/36/en) doesnt seem to be a relevant reference.

Communicating by voice or typing obviously involves the intelligence, mind, and physical body. Sure its different from offering prasadam (not counting the mantras, etc.), but how does that make it that "one cant do bodily service online"?

One can even serve the body online by advising on medical or dietary issues, etc. In that case the body of one person is giving service, and the body of the other is being served. Why would physical contact in devotional service be important?

I assume Veda means you cant serve prasadam and physically associate with devotees in this way....my question - is the spiritual benefit on the same level?

I hear some that say its not the same and you actually have to associate in person to maximise spiritual benefit....some cant obviously do this for some reason or other but my own feeling is that the benefit would be same if the quality of the association is there.

You can be associating with devotees in person but you may be talking prajalpa most/all of the time, but if you are online you may be just associating with Krsna katha only (if you are disciplined enough on the internet). I guess both are good and the quality of the association is the important factor.

There are some who simply cant associate in person or their personal association is very limited and I think their online association should be recognised as spiritually beneficial.

Sorry, its SB 10.22.35.

Yes rasa108, thats it. Physical association has more benefits. Seeing. touching and even just being in the personal presence of a sadhu is purifying. Many examples, like SB 9.5.20, CC 2.20.61. Obviously, the quality levels can be different.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/citeYes rasa108, thats it. Physical association has more benefits.[/quote]

More spiritual potency? Do we get equal spiritual credits? (for the activites that are common for physical and non-physical service i.e., Krsna katha on Skype compared with Krsna katha in person)

Devotees wanted to keep in touch with what their spiritual master was saying and doing as he travelled the world. Often he would say something that would take the movement in a slightly new direction in its organisation or its preaching '96 but he would say it at another temple, in another country. So ISKCON members '96 who had to wait for weeks for taped cassettes of classes to be sent to them (if at all) wanted to hear about these developments quicker.

They also wanted to be able to communicate between each other '96 temple to temple '96 so that successes could be shared and advice passed on. For these reasons they asked Srila Prabhupada if they could install the recently-available Telex machines inside the temples. Basically electric typewriters connected through a radio frequency, the Telex machine allowed messages to be sent almost instantaneously.

Srila Prabhupada was not enthusiastic, and even said that the devices would increase the possibility of devotees engaging in prajalpa, a Sanskrit word meaning '91useless,idle talk.'92 Even at the risk of his temples being under-informed, Srila Prabhupada considered that Telex would not help his followers in their spiritual lives. It seems that the risk of prajalpa was an even greater risk than his disciples having less information.

Useless conversation '96 or writing '96 means that type of communication that doesn'92t help us to remember the goal of life. It can be simply gramya-katha or '91village gossip,'92 talks of the mundane, the ever-changing political, or persons who are famous for a few brief days.

-- from http://deshika.wordpress.com/2009/02/27/the-notion-of-free-speech-in-iskcon/

However Prabhupada had stopped at telex and teletype.

Prabhupada: That is God. Under Gods superintendence things are coming. Parasya saktih vividhaiva sruyate. He has got many multi powers and energies, they are working. Just like in nowadays electronic. You type your "a" and thousand miles away another typewriter will strike immediately "a", is it not? It is called, what is called?
Paramahamsa: Telex.
Prabhupada: Telex? Not telex. Telex is also on the same thing.
Devotees: Teletype.
Prabhupada: Teletype, yes. You push here "a" and the other end the "a" will immediately strike. There is no need of another person typing. But how it is being done? There is electronic arrangement by higher scientist. Not that, ordinary typewriter will not, no. Suppose if you keep one typewriter at your brothers place and you push it here, will it strike there? (laughter)

Here it is:
Here Prabhupada points out on the main problem of Internet involvment:

Your suggestion for groups teaching practical subjects like book distribution, deity worship, is also good. These things are wanted.

The installing of telex communications for our main temples is not required. ***Then they will gossip more through the telex.***

So if you apply yourself in helping to prepare and implement these suggestions for the Vrindaban portion of our festival, that will be very good. Hoping this meets you in good health.
Your ever well-wisher,
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
ACBS/sdg
72-02-05

> More spiritual potency?

Definitely. But dont ask me for percentage. 8)

> Krsna katha on Skype compared with Krsna katha in person

For me Krsna katha on Skype (which I got rid of earlier this year) would be an emergency solution when stranded in a place with no devotees around. In that case, something is better than nothing.

Thanks, ccd, for the quotes. Seems like SP didnt think high of his disciples in this regard.
And he was right, judging from rate of internet preachers vs. devotees talking in forums, social sites, on IM chats, etc. Is this fear behind the mysterious (at least for me) disinterest of leaders in internet preaching?

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]
Thanks, ccd, for the quotes. Seems like SP didnt think high of his disciples in this regard.
And he was right, judging from rate of internet preachers vs. devotees talking in forums, social sites, on IM chats, etc. Is this fear behind the mysterious (at least for me) disinterest of leaders in internet preaching?[/quote] Karandhara same year made Prabhupada sit in front of a telex machine talking to NY temple devotees. Still Prabhupada knew well and yest could have seen the possibility of what is going on now, he seriously would have disliked the situation happening a lot these days, he was right - it is a nightmare to a large part. As far as the Mystery it is simple - you can not win... even with unlimited time, you can only loose as our past experience shows, so better dont play it (and use Russian translators all the time:-)

I dont know what you mean. Can you explain how one cant win supporting and organizing internet preaching?

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite] Useless conversation '96 or writing '96 means that type of communication that doesn'92t help us to remember the goal of life. It can be simply gramya-katha or '91village gossip,'92 talks of the mundane, the ever-changing political, or persons who are famous for a few brief days.

-- from http://deshika.wordpress.com/2009/02/27/the-notion-of-free-speech-in-iskcon/ [/quote]

Its true that there is alot of useless talk not related to Krsna or not preaching but I think the good preaching and proper use of the internet will benefit those spiritually. Like any utility, we can use it for sense gratification or for Krsnas pleasure. I dont think there is a problem with the internet per say, but like anything favourable in the material world, it needs to be engaged properly for Krsnas service.

I think the author refers to improper use of technology rather than not using the technology at all.

"So far as personal association with Guru is concerned, I was only with Guru Maharaj 4 or 5 times, but I have never left his association, not even for a moment. Because I am following his instruction, I have never felt any separation. There are some of my Godbrothers here in India, who had constant personal association with Guru Maharaja, but who are neglecting his orders. This is just like the bug who is sitting on the lap of the king. He may be very puffed up by his position but all he can succeed in doing is biting the king. Personal association is not so important as association through serving."
(Letter to Satyadhana, 20/2/72)

I was speaking about proactive preaching in general, not reactive preaching against schismatics. Obviously, when online one has to face all kinds of challenges but its not the same as engaging in debate with schismatics. The first brings people in, the second prevents them from leaving.

Btw, it was not a secret department, it was Jahnu himself who was debating on Usenet against atheists and later also got involved into antiritvik debate to some extent. Hes still doing it afaik, but not as much as before.

Jai Sri Krsna Janmastami!

It involves the condition of the heart. If there is love and faith, anything spoken or written has the same effect. For example, we share Srila Prabhupadas words with each other. Because there is some love and faith for His words and understanding his desires and intentions, whatever he spoke or wrote, even if it is, "Tell them to give them some Prasadam" because it is Srila Prabhupada, it is purifying. The purification is done from within.

"To hear about Krsna from Vedic literatures, or to hear from Him directly through the Bhagavad-gita, is itself righteous activity. And for one who hears about Krsna, Lord Krsna who is dwelling in everyones heart, acts as a best-wishing friend and purifies the devotee who constantly engages in hearing of Him. In this way, a devotee naturally develops his dormant transcendental knowledge. As he hears more about Krsna from the Bhagavatam and from the devotees, he becomes fixed in the devotional service of the Lord. By development of devotional service one becomes freed from the modes of passion and ignorance, and thus material lusts and avarice are diminished. When these impurities are wiped away, the candidate remains steady in his position of pure goodness, becomes enlivened by devotional service and understands the science of God perfectly. Thus bhakti-yoga severs the hard knot of material affection and enables one to come at once to the stage of asamsayam-samagram, understanding of the Supreme Absolute Truth Personality of Godhead." (Bhag. 1.2.17-21)

Bhagavad Gita Ch 10 Verse 11
Out of compassion for them, I, dwelling in their hearts, destroy with the shining lamp of knowledge the darkness born of ignorance.

Yes. Whatever one does to understand and teach Krishna Consciousness will please Krishna.

Internet will do. Ultimately, we are trying to give a persons thinking a right sense of spiritual direction, and helping him go back to Krishna.

Books are gurus, Preachings are gurus, Live gurus are gurus -- association with any or all of these carry the same benefits in awakening ones dormant love for Krishna.

On the material plane, we cant send a glass of water on the net -- a picture of water is not water.

But on the spiritual plane, a picture of water is water. Sometimes internet devotee association might be even better, for when you meet a person, you see his external faults etc, as you are not yet evolved enough to see the inner purity of the guru.

Due to my circumstances, I have been on the receiving end of internet association with devotees a lot.
I do get some real life association, so I can make comparisons between online and real life association.

Online, I take part in discussions that are impossible for me IRL. For example, I get to discuss the philosophy of Krishna consciousness with a brahmacari in quite a bit of detail and personal/private relevance. This would not be possible for me in person.

To me, this gives the whole experience of devotee association a sense of surrealness, and it feels as if it was all stolen somehow.
I am finding myself quite unable to relate to devotees IRL.
I have felt a lot of frustration because of this.

The good thing with internet association is that everything is in writing (given that one communicates in the old-fashioned internet ways of email and text chat), and can be later reviewed and printed and read again. Much of the information and insight that usually gets lost in face-to-face communication, is preserved in online communication.

Another good aspect of online communication with devotees is that many scriptural resources are readily available online - easy to search, reference and copy-paste.

And of course, communicating in the written form forces one to clarify ones thoughts and to express oneself more efficiently.

Last but not least, communicating online forces one to be more conscious of ones communication - since it generally takes much more deliberate action to communicate online than it does IRL. IRL, if one happens to meet a person, usually a conversation will develop somehow, without putting in much effort. Online, nothing happens without ones pressing that Enter button.

But my dear baker the online enviroment we do not need to surrender completely which is the perfection of personal service to guru,siksa or diksa or even just other devotees.

And that is where the real nectar is when we indeed smash our mind into submission ....usually by the chanting process,but eventually this surrender is essential to make regular progress

>Pandu das: Why would physical contact in devotional service be important?

bhakta-pada-dhuli ara bhakta-pada-jala
bhakta-bhukta-avasesa,----tina maha-bala

TRANSLATION
The dust of the feet of a devotee, the water that has washed the feet of a devotee, and the remnants of food left by a devotee are three very powerful substances.

ei tina-seva haite krsna-prema haya
punah punah sarva-sastre phukariya kaya

TRANSLATION
By rendering service to these three, one attains the supreme goal of ecstatic love for Krsna. In all the revealed scriptures this is loudly declared again and again.

tate bara bara kahi,----suna bhakta-gana
visvasa kariya kara e-tina sevana

TRANSLATION
Therefore, my dear devotees, please hear from me, for I insist again and again: please keep faith in these three and render service to them without hesitation.

tina haite krsna-nama-premera ullasa
krsnera prasada, tate saksi kalidasa

TRANSLATION
From these three one achieves the highest goal of life--ecstatic love of Krsna. This is the greatest mercy of Lord Krsna. The evidence is Kalidasa himself.

Unfortunately, these three services to devotees can not be performed over internet, one must have physical contact to perform these.

Your humble servant
dweller in peace

Internet is the brihat mridanga of today - without any doubt.
So many devotees and newcomers take advantage of all the KC materials available on the web, including of course the ability to talk to other devotees.

There are a number of difficulties with internet association. Flaming, trolling, hate speech, spaming and other obvious downfalls of internet that do make an impression on the quality of association one gets. I respect those who say they should not preach on Internet or touch Internet, but I am on the side of those who do, and the future is with Internet, not the telegrams and snail mail. We definitely should work on the Internet forms of bhakta-traiseva as per dweller in peace, I guess adding a bit of dust in the emails is not a bad idea.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]There are a number of difficulties with internet association. Flaming, trolling, hate speech, spaming and other obvious downfalls of internet that do make an impression on the quality of association one gets. I respect those who say they should not preach on Internet or touch Internet, but I am on the side of those who do, and the future is with Internet, not the telegrams and snail mail. We definitely should work on the Internet forms of bhakta-traiseva as per dweller in peace, I guess adding a bit of dust in the emails is not a bad idea.[/quote]

Agreed ccd - there are alot of virtual nasties but also there is alot of RL gossip, criticism and judgement based on the body i.e., not-so-good association - so I guess there are these negative aspects of any association, virtual or otherwise. Where would the GBC be without email and PAMHO conferences?

> Where would the GBC be without email and PAMHO conferences?

They would be soooo peaceful ;-) Real leadership! I feel that introduction of fast-hand communications is not suited for spiritual leadership of a movement. But then again, anything can be used in the service, but how will you keep down the associated modes of nature?

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]But then again, anything can be used in the service, but how will you keep down the associated modes of nature?[/quote]

[br]I think the problem with online communication is that it can be difficult to remain focused - its so easy to click here and there, read a bit here and there, and generally getting abstractly, impersonally wrapped up in words and pictures.[br]

[br]Back in Buddhism, I knew some people who said a prayer or meditated a bit before going online, or who actually bowed before starting to write an email, or who had some formal procedure of offering respects before hitting Enter.[br]

[br]It may also pay off to have a picture of Srila Prabhupada or of ones spiritual master, or of the person one is writing to, right next to the computer, always within seeing range while typing.[br]

[br]Making a list of tasks / making a plan for online activities, writing it down and having that list right in front of oneself to see, also helps.[br]

Dear Veda love the term Schismatics.....or possibly Schism -antics..it is a privilege to accept your guidance prabhu....hare krishna.

Nice quote dweller in peace you actually surprised me ....being personally present we are forced to be truly humble and rid ourselves of our impersonal natures.....hare krishna.Well done!

Krishna is within our hearts.....genuine motives... he will reciprocate genuinely.Cheating like adding words into srila Prabhupadas teachings he will cheat you....send you to false chearting Dharma like buddhism and Schismatics...RITVIK BABAJIS.Might make you a vegan ....so you suffer!You fail to take krishnas sweets made from ghee butter and milk.

Dear Sri Govinda Prabhu, thanks but this word was used here first by ccd. Not sure if its proper English but it carries the meaning well.

Dear Pandu das ..love the letter of Prabhupadas to satadhanya prabhu.....Interesting enough even archaryas in our line have failed to appreciate how our siksa line actually transmites or reveales its unique potency.

What are you talking bout?

I can not follow you sri_govinda_das, seriously. Are you sure you are originally from NZ and not gujjarat{;=)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schismatic

(actually a well covered topic on the first ISKCON studies conference). Actually a division or a split is not necessarily a schism, it can be a philosophical deviation. Schsm is more of an organizational split from the main body of a church. For example ritikism is not a schism, but Siddhasvarupas group is a schism. We however use schism for both for some reason. Ritivikism is a heresy, but even pope never uses it for splinter groups, one need to be p.c.

So Ananta Vasudeva das became the archarya after srila Bhaktisiddanta swami left.He was in essence in his gurus association all the time...as a result thou sorrounded by so much ....he eventually became bewildered.When faced with the pertinent facts of our unique sampradaya,and its obvious jumps between guru....which he found personally bewildering,some say he took reinitiation,because of his inability to properly understand our siksa line.At least it proved to be a loss in faith.So our guru became obviously quite angry at his lack of faith.As displayed by this wonderful quote....interesting ccd and veda Prabhus....He at one stage was unable to fully appreciate how it was not a diksa line!He caused some form of offense even questioning the nature of his gurus siksa line and how actually diksa took place.....since according to his reasearch it does not properly jion.

"So far as personal association with Guru is concerned, I was only with Guru Maharaj 4 or 5 times, but I have never left his association, not even for a moment. Because I am following his instruction, I have never felt any separation. There are some of my Godbrothers here in India, who had constant personal association with Guru Maharaja, but who are neglecting his orders. This is just like the bug who is sitting on the lap of the king. He may be very puffed up by his position but all he can succeed in doing is biting the king. Personal association is not so important as association through serving."
(Letter to Satyadhana, 20/2/72)

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]So Ananta Vasudeva das became the archarya after srila Bhaktisiddanta swami left.He was in essence in his gurus association all the time...as a result thou sorrounded by so much ....he eventually became bewildered.When faced with the pertinent facts of our unique sampradaya,and its obvious jumps between guru....which he found personally bewildering,some say he took reinitiation,because of his inability to properly understand our siksa line.At least it proved to be a loss in faith.So our guru became obviously quite angry at his lack of faith.[/quote]

Ananta Vasudeva was a very learned devotee who did not mind drawing his own conclusions from shastra, tradition, and his own experience. He chose to see some details of our parampara differently than his guru. Incidentaly, it was his guru who came up with a very different, non traditional view of our parampara, a view not shared by his father or his formal guru. These are historical facts.

You cant blame a disciple for doing the same thing his guru did.

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite][He chose to see some details of our parampara differently than his guru. Incidentaly, it was his guru who came up with a very different, non traditional view of our parampara, a view not shared by his father or his formal guru. These are historical facts.[/quote]
Well you can not call a fact something like that. The parampara was published AFTER disappearance of both his initiating guru and his father (who was the head of institution), and he just carried it forward with the support of this published line. There are hardly any facts as u suggest that Ananta Vasudava Parividhyabhusana did not support this parampara line. This line is too obvious not to support.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite][He chose to see some details of our parampara differently than his guru. Incidentaly, it was his guru who came up with a very different, non traditional view of our parampara, a view not shared by his father or his formal guru. These are historical facts.[/quote]
Well you can not call a fact something like that. The parampara was published AFTER disappearance of both his initiating guru and his father (who was the head of institution), and he just carried it forward with the support of this published line. There are hardly any facts as u suggest that Ananta Vasudava Parividhyabhusana did not support this parampara line. This line is too obvious not to support.[/quote]

There is no indication that Bhaktivinoda Thakura was a guru to Srila Gaurakishora DB. Perhaps it was even the other way round, especially since BVT accepted the babaji initiation and vesa (babaji dress) form Srila Gaurakishora. And there is no indication BVT ever rejected his diksa guru, Bipin Bihari or his parampara. A historical fact not included in the parampara line constructed by BSST. Just like there is no indication that the 6 Goswamis considered their line as descending from Madhva. ----------------- BBST had his own perspective, and Ananta Vasudeva chose to exercise exactly the same option.

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite][He chose to see some details of our parampara differently than his guru. Incidentaly, it was his guru who came up with a very different, non traditional view of our parampara, a view not shared by his father or his formal guru. These are historical facts.[/quote]
Well you can not call a fact something like that. The parampara was published AFTER disappearance of both his initiating guru and his father (who was the head of institution), and he just carried it forward with the support of this published line. There are hardly any facts as u suggest that Ananta Vasudava Parividhyabhusana did not support this parampara line. This line is too obvious not to support.[/quote]

There is no indication that Bhaktivinoda Thakura was a guru to Srila Gaurakishora ---- and Ananta Vasudeva chose to exercise exactly the same option.[/quote] I am sorry, this is not a fact, that what you think. This parampara is not based and does not relate on this or that initiation. Thus even if one member of diksa line or a sannyasa line or babaji line is not up to scratch, it will keep going. There is no evidence that AVP ever rejected this bhagavata line. You seem to mix up bhagavata and pancaratrika processes and that clouds your judgement, besides the obvious fact that you do not have ANY facts that he (AV) in any way altered this line.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]There is no evidence that AVP ever rejected this bhagavata line. You seem to mix up bhagavata and pancaratrika processes and that clouds your judgement, besides the obvious fact that you do not have ANY facts that he (AV) in any way altered this line.[/quote]

The group he started after leaving GM was very secretive. Some Radha Kunda babajis claimed he took initiation from them. Given his writings and publications from that time period, the style of worship in his temple, it is safe to assume he looked as his own lineage differently than BSST. Srila Prabhupada thought so too.

My main point was that AV chose to have his own opinion on things, just like his guru did, and that does not make him bewildered, or a deviant.

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]There is no evidence that AVP ever rejected this bhagavata line. You seem to mix up bhagavata and pancaratrika processes and that clouds your judgement, besides the obvious fact that you do not have ANY facts that he (AV) in any way altered this line.[/quote]

The group he started after leaving GM was very secretive. Some Radha Kunda babajis claimed he took initiation from them. Given his writings and publications from that time period, the style of worship in his temple, it is safe to assume he looked as his own lineage differently than BSST. Srila Prabhupada thought so too.[br]

My main point was that AV chose to have his own opinion on things, just like his guru did, and that does not make him bewildered, or a deviant.[/quote] Fair enough about your main point, but he has not changed the order of bhagavata parampara, and the fact that three different groups claim three different things about his initiation shows that there are not facts. They worship proper Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thankura parampara in GM in Calcutta and his white marble murti is there. That is a fact (all others are just that claims). You can talk to his disciples who give lectures in ISKCON all the time, to check.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite] Fair enough about your main point, but he has not changed the order of bhagavata parampara, and the fact that three different groups claim three different things about his initiation shows that there are not facts. They worship proper Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thankura parampara in GM in Calcutta and his white marble murti is there. That is a fact (all others are just that claims). You can talk to his disciples who give lectures in ISKCON all the time, to check.[/quote]

That is good to know. -------- It is really sad that some stories passed around by otherwise elevated Vaishnavas turn out to be deliberate misinformation. They seem to think it is OK to lie if you have the right motive... the belief that end justifies the means...

Yes there seems to be a very deliberate attempt to attack this Ananta Vasudeva ,,,,thank you ccd for your knowledge of their worship of srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati takura.This solves a personal impression which was wrong....thankfully.However there was such a new detailed change of perception ,instilled by srila Srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati takura concerning our bhagavat...siksa line that many, especially those of the goswami perception have failed to appreciate his mood.Hence they are intent on bewildering his siksa legacy even in todays enviroment.Such is the necessity of vaisnava association.hare krishna.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][You seem to mix up bhagavata and pancaratrika processes and that clouds your judgement, besides the obvious fact that you do not have ANY facts that he (AV) in any way altered this line.[/quote]

The bhagavata process you are referring to was something BSST came up with. Whether AV altered that line is perhaps something his disciples would know. From what I have heard he was leaning towards the more traditional GV lines. In some current GM branches the pancaratrika line through Bipin Bihari is honored as much as the idealized bhagavata line. That seems like a good compromise.

How is that compatable kula-pavanna prabhu when he ,vipina bihari goswami severely criticized Raghunathana das goswami.As a consequence srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati saw him in the light that he was an offender of little consequence?....can you shed some light on this apparent incompatable situation...why some maths seek to follow this path instead of their gurus....

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]How is that compatable kula-pavanna prabhu when he ,vipina bihari goswami severely criticized Raghunathana das goswami.[/quote]

There was no such criticism. Bipina Bihari was speaking about the need to preserve the brahminical culture and said that even devotees as advanced as Raghunathana das goswami should take initiation from brahmana gurus as a matter of principle which Lord Krsna followed as well. This comment was turned into a big argument against him by Vaishnavas who wanted to make sure non-brahmana Vaishnavas could initiate everybody just like the brahmanas did..

The result is the Brahmana and Vaisnava book. http://library.iskconmedia.com/acaryas/bhaktisiddhanta-sarasvati-thakura/brahmana-and-vaisnava

Its getting off the original question here....how did we end up with this discussion!!