Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

Certainly not an easy question to answer.

A false contradiction?
Sri Caitanya accepted a guru from an established sampradaya to give an example (BG 3.21-24), just like when He goes to school, etc.
Bhaktivinoda Thakura says the four Vaisnava sampradayas are preparing the ground for Sri Caitanya. Their teachings are not complete but establish tenets used in His siddhanta.
Its true that from the pov of acceptance Krsna as Bhagavan GV sampradaya is closer to Vallabha and Nimbarka.
More about Madhva-GV affiliation: http://www.iskcon.com/icj/11/04-gupta.html

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]
Its true that from the pov of acceptance Krsna as Bhagavan GV sampradaya is closer to Vallabha and Nimbarka.
More about Madhva-GV affiliation: http://www.iskcon.com/icj/11/04-gupta.html[/quote]

But Vallabha sampradaya appeared later, Rudra sampradaya at the time did not have Vallabha and only later when Vallabha was established invited him to take up the chair of the acharya of Rudra sampradaya. But that was later. [br][br]

The above [i] my link[/i] is a review of the link you posted;-)

[quote]But Vallabha sampradaya appeared later, Rudra sampradaya at the time did not have Vallabha and only later when Vallabha was established invited him to take up the chair of the acharya of Rudra sampradaya. But that was later.[/quote]

Thanks for correcting me.

[quote]The above [i] my link[/i] is a review of the link you posted;-)[/quote]

Yeah but the evidence is in RRs article, esp. notes 26,27.

Okay so the quote is:

Indeed, since the time of Sri Caitanya himself, Caitanya Vaisnavas have affiliated themselves with the Madhva sampradaya. Parampara lists connecting Caitanya to Madhvacarya are found in several works from Orissa written during or just after the time of Mahaprabhu. These include Bhaktijnanabrahmayoga by Acyutananda Dasa (a close associate of Caitanya in Puri) and a list by Gopalaguru Gosvami, a disciple of Vakresvara Pandita. Outside of Orissa, the most significant claim to the Madhva connection is the parampara list given by Kavi Karnapura in his Gauraganoddesadipika, which is quoted in Visvanatha Cakravarti'92s Gauraganatattvasvarupacandrika and in the Bhaktiratnakara. Lala Dasa'92s Bhaktamala also supports the Caitanya-Madhva link. Furthermore, it is interesting to note that early writings of the Vallabha sampradaya also make mention of Madhavendra Puri as a Madhva sannyasi, even though they consider him to be part of their own sampradaya.

Actually our line is ultimately nourished by a siksa component more than diksa.Srila bhaktisiddanta saraswati Prabhupada refused to accept several of the diksa gurus within our sampradaya even though they initiated formally members.Hence the line is considered self evident in many ways ......your servant sri govinda das

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]Srila bhaktisiddanta saraswati Prabhupada refused to accept several of the diksa gurus within our sampradaya even though they initiated formally members.[/quote]
When did he refuse whom and why. While I heard it from others I never heard it from him or in his books.

My dear ccd ,have you heard who the diksa guru of srila bhaktivinoda thakura was?Sri chaitanya mahaprabhu appeared in a dream and informed sat cid annada bhaktivinoda to him as his diksa guru.

Also if one was to inquirer into the unique history of gaurakisore das babaji,one might be surprised to find that his guru was one bhagavat das babaji who in turn was accepted by our jaganatha das babaji maharaj.But our parampara shows srila jaganatha das babaji,bhaktivinoda thakura and then gaurakisora das ,then his grace srila bhaktisiddhanta saraswati .......hence we are not a diksa line .....but siksa in nature and nourishment in my humble opinion.Please make your enquirers yourself.....hopefully my guru shared with me adquately .....Hint ....where does viphina das goswami appear?

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]Also if one was to inquirer into the unique history of gaurakisore das babaji,one might be surprised to find that his guru was one bhagavat das babaji [/quote]
Was it? what I was trying to say is something different (obviously I am aware that Srila Gaurakisora das babaji Maharaja did not take babaji from Bhaktivinoda Thakura, and I am aware of who he took the diksa from (and it is not Bhagavat das Babaji Maharaja. The point I was making is that there no written record of ANY rejection of any vaisnava or diksa guru by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta sarasvati Thakura. This is why I made a point - where do you get ANY notion of rejection if he himself never rejected anyone? Making siksa or bhagavat or however you call line of teachers and publishing it is not a rejection. Just as if you say that your prime connection is to Srila Prabhupada, it does not mean you REJECT TKG. It is just that you have and worship your guru Srila Prabhupada on the altar as part of Bhagavata Parampara, while you gurudeva, even if not on the altar, is the person who gave you the transcendental name.

[br][br]
I find putting in print any notions of rejections of vaisnavas a form of sadhu-ninda, and would not want it attributed to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta sarasvati Thakura. Did he ever put it in print?

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]My dear ccd ,have you heard who the diksa guru of srila bhaktivinoda thakura was?Sri chaitanya mahaprabhu appeared in a dream and informed sat cid annada bhaktivinoda to him as his diksa guru.[/quote]
Is it a story or something? It is not in any writings of Bhaktivinda Thakura, about him and not in his pranama mantra (written under supervision of BSST). gaura sakti svarupaya (gaura-of Lord Caitanya; sakti-energy; svarupaya-unto the personified) Which is the realization of BSST that BVT was a manifestation of Sri Gadadhara Prabhu, no mention that he got an initiation from Mahaprabhu in the dream>>??>> Please let me know from what written source you get it, please. Is it someone elses imagination. BVT all his life worshiped his diksa guru.

My dear ccd mataji,please accept my kind regards,within gaudiya vaisnavism there are incredible differences of mood and siddhanta present.Maybe 8 - 10 years ago i went about trying to drag my humble devotional service into a proper philosophical light.Since i had stumbled along on automatic for a few years i felt necessary to enquire from my siksa guru about how to visualise and ascertain exactly how devotional credit or nourishment is transmitted from devotee to devotee.In my case i had the normal neophyte appreciation of what guru siddhanta meansdiksa.I get initiated serve my guru and it all stems and flows from him or her ...fullstop.
However i had certain reservations about my simplistic perception,though adequate it failed to satisfy completely when your spiritual master passes or he infact falls down which was what had happened to me personally when my diksa guru Bhavanada prabhu fall down.
Being a sankirtan devotee ,you find senior devotee association and ask?
Guru tattva being in the books seems very grand and self sufficent however practically without senior devotees mercy you dont actually go any place.Personally i think krishna has intentional done this to make us beg ,to allow these extensive layers of arrogance to be peeled off our backs one at a time .
Usually in an embarrassingly humble and humiliating way ,which usually allows one to eat sh**t when devotional humble pie is on the menu.In the old days the sanyasis used to yell at us very ,very loudly.....sometimes extremely aggressively..
Any way my siksa guru ,his divine grace srila Tamala krishna goswami was in a very different mood .He seemed very alert,sweet,with a devilish look in his eye.After hearing that he had recently been pulled into line,by some of his godbrothers i was really intrigued.He seemed more settled and well...... satisfied.

Well after a good class for all the assembled devotees in christchurch temple,tamala krishna goswami asked for questions......i garthered up all my courage and as usual dove straight in......up to my neck.Firstly i asked about how some devotees seem initiated even before accepting a diksa guru.....He smiled and replied that the initiating spiritual master was already present!.....Which was not at all the party line being preached by Iskcon .Then after several other questions by my godsister jambavati devi dasi .....I asked about his new mood !He had obviously transcended his previous manner ,mood and vision of the future.....he had drastically changed .He smiled a wonderful smile and asked me if i had a specific question.I asked him about our parampara line?Our line appeared not infact to be a diksa line.Which he confirmed but at once asked anyone within the room to turn off there tape recorders off because the GBC would not necessary like what he might infact say next to us.
He commented that Guru was infact One,he had recently taken shelter of senior vaisnava devotees within the gaudiya math....for a time he had experienced and tasted an interesting alternative but on the suggestion of his godbrothers had decided to return to the iskcon fold.Hence forth he would not be returning......Voluntarily relinguishing their asossiation due to encouragment from others within Iskcon.

That was the external conversation,however asking several questions i was able to form my own vision of what had infact happened.He mention a different mood than what iskcon was about at the time and this encouraged me signifigantly to search further.Basically his veiw was in summary that their was an a practical level of taking ones necessary encouragment,rasa,nourishment from those in our line who were uniquely qualified to instill in us that which was personally necessary for our individual needs.He was definitely saying it was a siksa line and not diksa,consequently several realisations had manifested along with new information and had given him increased vision and encouragment.Especially since he was a senior guru within Iskcon at the time, and on how things should infact proceed.

This was a necessary ingredient for me, so i received from him seed details which grew on further study within the gaudiya matha line into what i accept is an internal preaching mood for those who cap in hand research within their precincts of knowledge which i did over several years and numerous devotees later.The practical results are to be found within the personal moods of certain readings within the gaudiya math ,but in short i can help simply at another time....your servant Sri_govinda_das

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]He was definitely saying it was a siksa line and not diksa,consequently several realisations had manifested along with new information and had given him increased vision and encouragment.Especially since he was a senior guru within Iskcon at the time, and on how things should infact proceed.[/quote] I know well how TKG can reply on a question, and what happens if you do not agree with his point of view;-) since my personal experience was that it is better not to do it...[br][br] However while it is siksa line, we do have a bona fide diksa line as well, nodoby rejected anyone and there is no need to reject a devotee who gave you the holy name. In the same way we accept that Lord Caitanyas guru (diksa) is Isvara Puri, even if he got sannyas or brahmana thread somewhere else.

ccd is not Mataji! His spiritual body is male this incarnation .

I think he just wants to put down our diksa-line because it is leading to Jahnava-mata:-)

My dear ccd,if your knowledge is superior to mine please tell me where viphina bihari goswami appears in your diksa conception of our sampradaya? Previous to our iskcon movement within the gaudiya matha as a whole ,whose individual opinion shaped the guru siddhanta ....previous to ac bhaktivedanta swami Prabhupada.?Who was the diksa guru of gaurakisore das babaji?Why does he not appear in a prominent position ,if it is infact a diksa line?....I could go on and on but i think the important piont will be made.

Also do you really think that all knowledge of krishna conciousness is limited by what is written in the books which you and i have at our disposal?Does iskcon have a similair opportunity to differentiate between the devotional line and the so called diksa component as you seem intent on,as happens in the gaudiya matha? ?How about the silver spoons which our srila Prabhupada gave to a wonderful sanyasis ,who then gave them to a householder ?Who himself became extremely empowered?Became a sanyasis and is now even more devotional, and even his diksa disciple knows the unique spiritual mood or rasa which is not confined to your diksa rasa?In other words ,like the catholics of old can there infact be internal knowledge not for everyone consumption which is essential for the advancment and spiritual nourishment.?How about the tiger hat which was given to srila Bhatisiddhanta saraswati Prabhupada by gaurakisore das babaji?Where does this fit within our understandings of diksa?....your servant sri_govinda das

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]My dear ccd,if your knowledge is superior to mine???? please tell me where viphina bihari goswami appears in your diksa conception of our sampradaya? [/quote] Actually he does not appear in the diksa line leading to Gaura-kisora dasa Babaji. Gaurakisora received mantra diksa from Nanda Kisora Gosvami of Santipura (author fo Sri-Gaura-premollasa-stotram). He accepted babaji vesa from Bhagavata Das Babaji one of the main disciples of Siddhakrishnadasa Babaji. The fact that harinama diksa is in the line of Jahnavi Thakurani. (However some argued that Gaura-kisora das Babaji Maharaja belonged to Advaita-parivara.) No diksa line is not prominent, we dont even give it in books but if someone asks we will say it is line leading to Jahnavi Mata, but it is a bona-fide line [-I am just quoting here Gopiparanadhana Prabhu]. See also http://www.chakra.org/discussions/BMMay11_06.html
[br][br] Sorry I got lost on your last post, are you saying you know something but it is not in the books and you do not want to share it? Or is it that TKG knew something and did not share it with us, I guess it is just a language gap. There is no such a thing as guru-siddhanta, for example (unless you are a ritvik;-)... If you want to read a bit on diksa guru line previous to ISKCON (and after BSST) maybe worth reading GBC correspondence at: http://www.scribd.com/doc/18502294/Ananta-Vasudeva [br][br]

Can you start a separate question about the tiger hat? That sounds very interesting...

My dear ccd,you have infact missed the substance of this siksa line ,viphin bihari goswami appears in our line as the diksa guru of sac did annanda bhaktivinoda thakur.At the time srila bhaktivinoda tahkur was at a loss to find a competent vaisnava who was actually inclined to preach.Due to the low ebb of the vaisnava culture within Bengal at the time ,smarta brahmana and sahajas of all description had brought about the situation where by bhakti -devotional service to sri krishna was seen as a sad begging profession.Sri chaitanya mahaprabhu appeared within a dream ,and told srila Bhaktivinoda thakur to seek initiation from viphin bihari goswami......which he did ,much to the disgust of his son ......the future srila bhaktisiddanta saraswati goswami.

This diksa of his farther was seen by bimala prasad ...srila bhaktisiddanta saraswati as a decorums sake move,to fullfill what was perceived to be the necessary mandatory procedure at the time by Srila bhaktivinoda himself .That the parampara of srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati swami was drawn from Jaganatha das babaji and Bhaktivinoda takura and not viphin bihari goswami.As there had been considerable offense taken at the mundane attitude viphina bihari goswami displayed in criticising srila Raghunatha das goswami ......typical of caste brahmanas who sought to identify him as coming from a low born caste.His dispute that the birth place of sri chaitanya mahaprabhu was in fact not where bhaktivinoda takur had determined it to be,and had infact rejected him as his disciple as a consequence.
Srila bhaktisiddanta reinitiated a leading disciple of viphin bihari goswami which in essence shows severe disgust and disregard that he was in fact guru of bhaktivinoda.Determined to defeat the false conclusions of Viphina bihari goswami,Bhaktisiddanta saraswati defeated him at a debate at midnpur on brahmans and vaisnavas.
Generally within our line, post srila bhaktisiddanta there seems to be a perception of a dominant siksa parampara ,this understanding is usually also seen as a bhagavat parampara by those who follow his mood .Some disagree but there followers received initiation from srila bhaktisiddantas brother...Lalita prasad..Whose mood was vastly different and was not attempting to become situated as a preacher hence is deemed secondary at best by those in iskcon.

Within iskcon my new friend ccd, we are developing our unique guru siddanta, guru truths or conclusions.We used to worship the gurus within the temple rooms with their own vyasasans as the supreme personality of godheads representatives.....but that is no longer.Hence it is my opinion that Iskcon is in a state of flux to a certain degree on how to proceed.....You are right about the diksa guru of gaurakisore das babaji maharaja......but i will finish tomorrow ,just came home from temple..your servant and hopefully new friend sri govinda das

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]My dear ccd,you have infact missed the substance of this siksa line ,viphin bihari goswami appears in our line as the diksa guru of sac did annanda bhaktivinoda thakur.[/quote] Sure he gave diksa to BVT, but he DOES NOT belong to the diksa line we have, so there is no rejection of anyone in our line. There is no diksa link between BVT and Srila Gaurakisora dasa Babaji (obviously since BTV took babaji vesa from SKdB). Moreover for some reason BSST would never write anything to the effect that you have stated, so he did not put any perceived offence in the paper, obviously we would do the same would we? Bipina vihari Goswami (a family man) did support BVT in his excavation and location of the birthplace of Mahaprabhu (he unfortunately later withdrew this support and thus was in conflict with BSST). I do not think that you read the links above, you just shoot it without doing much research, so just to repeat, BSST;s diksa guru is Srila Gaurakisora, as BSST himself stated; therefore it is his diksa line that is our diksa line.

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]Within iskcon my new friend ccd, we are developing our unique guru siddanta[/quote]
I trully hope we do not, we usually try to follow the siddhanta, and if we do not we develop something "new". So I beg to disagree with you. [br][br]
Prabhupada wasnt impressed, and complained about our propensity to always change things. "They manufacture ideas and spend money. This is the difficulty. Everyone manufactures some idea. And break it, do it, dig it." he told us a story. "There was a Mohammedan king, Nizamuddin. Nizamuddin, there is a tomb in Delhi. He was poet. So if some friends come he would read some writing, and he will suggest, the friend will suggest, Why dont you make like this.
"Oh, it is good. All right. Hell do it. Whatever he says. And when he goes away, then again makes his own.[br][br]
"So the secretary said, Why you are changing?[br][br]
"What can I do? That is my friend. And that is nonsense; therefore I am again doing what I wrote.[br][br]
"So we have to do that. As soon as you call anybody, hell give you some suggestion. Make this alteration, make this alteration."[br][br]
after telling this story Prabhupada shook his head with good-humored resignation.[br][br][br][br]

While i understand that acarya is one who "cannot be expected to conform to a stereotype, for he must find the ways and means by which Krsna consciousness may be spread". Siddhanta or (determination of the actual truth, the final conclusion, by quotation from Vedic scriptures) in relation to guru-tattva is not something you can manufacture (unless you are a ritivik or something...) We do not manufacture our own teachings. So-called scholars and learned men manufacture their own teachings and give their opinions. In the West especially, we find much philosophical speculation and mental gymnastics, but such philosophy can never be perfect. We have to take our ideas from Bhagavan; then they will be perfect. We read Bhagavad-gita because it is perfect. There is no mistake in it; there is no illusion in it; there is no cheating in it. Nor is it delivered by one whose senses are imperfect. "This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way." This Krsna consciousness philosophy is very easy because we do not manufacture ideas. We take the ideas and the words delivered by the Supreme Person, Krsna, or His incarnation or representative. His representative does not say anything which Krsna Himself does not say. It is very easy to be a representative, but one cannot be a representative of Krsna if one tries to interpret Krsnas words in a whimsical way.[br][br]
Because how you can manufacture perfect knowledge? You are imperfect. Your senses are imperfect. You are defective in four ways. You are... To err is human. You must commit mistake. You must be illusioned. Your senses are imperfect, and you have got a cheating propensity. These four defects are there.

He has stated, '93The Arcarya'92s words are to be used as supporting material and not as the sole basis of for an argument.'94 This is not always the case. The acarya'92s words can stand on their own, due to their spiritual advancement. Bhaktivinoda Thakur has some good quotes from Sri Tattra Sutram. He states:

"Spiritual ordinances are intended for the regulation of the ignorant human beings whereas those who are endowed with discretion and divine wisdom are not controlled by them'85since knowledge itself is the root of the scriptures the one who has attained that self-evident knowledge will not be ruled by the scriptures, but they guide him with advices. In case of ignorant people, this is not so. They must be governed by the rules of the scriptures for their upliftment'85

Devotees of the supreme Lord are not controlled by the scriptures since their activities are congenial to the divine wisdom'85Therefore, when the self realized devotees ordain any new arrangement, they should be agreed with as a religious code, even if such new arrangements are not found in the spiritual dictums of the previous sages." (191-204)

THIS IS THE ASCENDENCY!

Hari!

My dear ccd,you seem intent on placing your head within the sand.....like an osterich when you find something does infact not suit your pleasant perception of krishna conciousness.Vipin bihari goswami was a diksa guru within our line but srila Bhaktididanta saraswati refused to accept his farther ,who was a Vaisnava needed any guidance or nourishment from someone who was intent on being offensive to sri raganatha das goswami.
Whom srila bhaktisiddanta had a very strong attachment for......he many times calls out for his blessings within his personal writings.Hence he rejected this caste goswamibecause of his mixed alloyed devotional standards.Due to the nature of our parampara line he is indeed seen in a unusual light hence forth.Yes my nrisingha we are meant to be intent on pleasing our previous archaryas and spiritual masters by tuning our intelligence to their mood and perception of their vision.The unique mood of guru siddhanta which is being illustrated here by his divine grace srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati goswami maharaja should infact be a guiding light for those intelligent enough to ascertain the more pleasing ,more perfect way forward in my humble view....your servant govinda das.

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite] My dear ccd,you seem intent on placing your head within the sand.....like an osterich when you find something does infact not suit your pleasant perception of krishna conciousness.[/quote] Now you are really annoying me with you semi-illiterate off the wall comments. Before one write something one should at least learn to read.

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite] Vipin bihari goswami was a diksa guru within our line but srila Bhaktididanta saraswati refused to accept his farther.[/quote] No he is not in our line unless you were initiated by lalita prasada. Our line means line of BSST. Are you suggesting that BSST got diksa from Bhaktivinoda Thakura?

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite] who was intent on being offensive to sri raganatha das goswami.
Whom srila bhaktisiddanta had a very strong attachment for......he many times calls out for his blessings within his personal writings.Hence he rejected this caste goswami because of his mixed alloyed devotional standards.[/quote] I will not even respond to this rubbish. You are accusing BSST of something that is non-factual here-say of some rumors. Even if he rejected him, there is absolutely no problem, since he is not his initiating guru, nor is BSST initiated by him or anyone who was initiated by him, he is just a diksa guru of his father. BTW why are you so hung up on him, there is a dozen of initiating gurus who gave diksa to individual acharyas, such as Visvanatha Cakravarti, Krisnadasa Kaviraja etc., who are not listed on the bhagavat parampara line published by BSST? Not that he rejected them all, it is just that he listed only acharyas, not regular gurus. Who do you think gave initiation to Vishvanatha Cakravarti? Who gave initiation to Jagannatha dasa Babaji - do you think he was instructed or initiated by Visvanatha Cakravarti? Do you think that Narottama was a siksa disciple of Krisnadasa Kaviraja? Do you think BSST rejected diksa guru of Krisnadasa Kaviraja Goswami and if yes who it was? Get your story straight and stop your patronizing demeanor. You ether answer the question or get off the pot.

These humble gurus ,great souls were able to achieve far greater preaching results than previously was established within iskcon or the preaching environment.Actually these guru have fashioned a society far greater than was around when even srila Prabhupada was personally present.....that was indeed their contribution to their guru.My siksa guru Tamala krishna goswami was the senior most follower of srila Prabhupada in my veiw......Personally the gurupuja worship was initiated by our Founder Archarya within Iskcon...not any gaudiya matha guru ....once again you have seen srila Prabhupadas vision as suspect.....solid gold toilets are very dangerous for those who are still intent on finding fault or are immature.
As to how a disciple following srila Prabhupada attemps to please sincerely that is up to the individual.As my friend guru kripa das,a huge sankirtan collector from the seventies.....guru kripa goswami told us that he would not have cared if srila Prabhupada had washed the hundreds of thousands of dollars he collected down the toilets.It was up to him.

So why ccd has iskcon changed how we worship our gurus within the temples?When i jioned Iskcon thirty odd years ago we had all the gurus on their own vyasasans within the temple itself......Now they no longer allow this.Because of guru fall downs and in my opinion god -brother immaturity.It was an extremely wonderful experience to perform ecstatic guru puja worship to your own guru personally immediately after srila Prabhupadas guru puja.This was the accepted standard within our gaudiya line ......and within Iskcon till recently.Obviously the GBC changed things in their wisdom,but eventually i would hope things mature to a degree to once again return to the more genuine siddhanta....guru siddhanta.Personally now myself i have to learn how to see the good with the many senior godbrothers and vaisnavas within the gaudiya line.Because of my lack of purity i also suffer this disease of envy which inhibts my ability to serve and be governed by gurus mood and desire to preach.

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]So why ccd has iskcon changed how we worship our gurus within the temples?When i jioned Iskcon thirty odd years ago we had all the gurus on their own vyasasans within the temple itself......Now they no longer allow this.Because of guru fall downs and in my opinion god -brother immaturity.[/quote] The reality is that there were no gurus, there were acharyas who immitated every thing that Prabhupada did, including daily guru-puja, morning walks and even more, doing it in front of their godbrothers. As far as I am concerned, they are all good devotees, but not getting to the platform of acharyas. The system we have now is still a bit too high for a standard system of worship of a guru in Gaudiya Vaisnavism, normally GV guru is offered puja only once a year and does not have an individual pranam mantra, these are all still remnants of what Ananta vasudeva in 1930s set up as part of the Acharya worship (he even wrote the nama-on visnu padaya mantra that we use) and it is being carried out by Gaudiya Maths acharyas and early gurus in ISKCON. In reality the only acharya after BSST is Srila Prabhupada. All others are regular gurus, and we are happy to see the standard coming down to what is the accepted norm in Gaudiya Vaisnavism. GBC is constantly changing things, I would not call it their wisdom, but we pray it is and we are all behind them... Daily guru puja, singing of the pranam mantra, taking worship from god-brothers, and getting toilets made of solid gold is NOT and never was an accepted standard, just and imitation of the founder acharya; btw they are all good devotees, not without problems, but on average nice souls, handpicked by Prabhupada.

Your perception of diksa.....is your problem,not what is accepted within iskcon, by those uniquely empowered......but this is about their individual devotional mood or unique rasa which enables them to do the sublime.Such as indradumya maharaja ,beacuse he received the mercy of his senior godbrother vishnujana maharaja and the Radha -damodara bus devotees mercy.....that is why i told you the story of the silver spoons which were handed down from our srila Prabhupada .....unless your guru is familiar or indeed empowered he will fail to possibly appreciate this unique iskcon rasa of impowerment....sorry to upset your comfitable perceptions of things.But my siksa guru pased on his extremely valuable guru understandings to myself and in that mood i tried to offer it to you.However it is not appreciated by you....so please accept my humble obeisances all glories to guru and gauranga....But your book knowledge though adequate for you is indeed lacking and is unable to fully empower those who are truly sincere......hare krishna.

Sampradaya of spoons? I am proud that I do not belong to it:-)

I have no doubt that you see your guru as the senior most follower of Prabhupada. If you think that Prabhupada invented guru-puja, you need to go back to school... But hey we all love Prabhupada that is the bottom line and is the real unity of the ranks.

No you are not part of the Radha -damodara legacy ccd,nor the vishnujana swami-tamala krishna krishna goswami legacy nor are you a part of the iskcon which was empowered by srila Prabhupada sweetly gifting those silver spoons to radha and Damodara.But hopefully krishna might allow you to one day wash away your sad devotional inabilities and blissfully allow you within this transcendental sublime movement. Where your impersonalism is permanently vanquished and everything is truly sweet and satisfying,where devotees are enthusiastic beleiving that iskcon will save the world in that last moments .... .hare krishna.....we are not a mundane institution bereft of transcendental nectar prabhu........Some of us especially from the early days are not posessing this mundane vision of the guru.We are not crippled by this kripana mentality....hare krishna may Radha -damodara one day please allow you within.

I keep getting entertained by "within" "inside" "in" concepts. It is clearly a form of immature fanatic religious (christian?) self defense, like "I have accepted Jesus, have you? type.
'bfWho is "in"?'bfWho decides? 'bfYour local priest?

---------- Forwarded Message ----------

Text PAMHO:16675543 (60 lines)
From: Bhakti Visrambha Madhava Swami
Date: 21-Dec-08 06:20 -0500 (22:20 +1100)
To: BDC (Book Distribution Curriculum) [427]
To: BDN (Book Distribution Nectar) [2808]
Subject: old sp story..
------------------------------------------------------------

Now it is the end of the marathon, and you must be exhausted. Please note
that My realizations (being that I am a pujari-cook by nature) of book
distribution is: you can only enthusiastically distribute the book that you
personally love. Unless that book has changed your life personally, You will
not be able to continue to change other peoples lives with that book for
very long time. some devotees distribute for a few years, but because they
only sell and dont read, they cannot continue it.

Srila Prabhupada in 1976 told us members of Radha Damodara TSKP in Mayapur
during His darshana the same:

"so You are distributing the books but do you read them also?" Prabhupada
asked us upon entering his room.

"Oh yes srila Prabhupada!" our sannyasi leader Tamal Krsna Maharaja
(confidentally white lied!_he knew weld not dare speak out and challenge
our sannyasi leader verbally.

yet we gave him such an incredulous look, all of us 80 boys..
it was obvious, Tamala Krsna Maharaja who was well intentionally trying to
hide the fact, was not truthfully forthcoming on it.

when 80--90 boys all young say 18-20 years old. all Heard that, it was like
we all crained our necks and looked at Tamal Krsna maharaja with shocking
surprise,, like silently speaking "You said what???"

Srila Prabhupada was smart, clever, he could clearly understand that Tamal
Krsna Maharaja was hiding the real truth, (due to intense competition from
Jayatirtha in London and elsewhere).

Srila Prabhupada was Indignant with Anger...

"So you are distributing the books, and suppose you come up to me and you
give me a book. and I ask you, "You are selling me this book but do you know
what is written inside this book," what will you reply to him.

He wanted a reply directly from us, we got scared and kept our mouth shut.

"what will you say!!!" he demanded. Ohhh we got really scared and we didnt
reply.

Srila Prabhupadas heart got soft. he didnt want to intimidate or scare his
surrendered disciples, just wanted to instruct us... "nooooooooo (like the
father he is) "You must readddddd!!!

then we all hung our heads downwards. reading was like sense gratification
for us, we read only when there was no one to sell books to, or when wew
slinkered down in between two cars to hide, if the police were looking to
catch us in shopping centres.

reading? only van leaders amongst us were reading! we were selling books 9
am to p pm whos got time to read?

yet those very van leaders were the most steadfast ones who never left
Iskcon, not like the ones who dont read the books.

yours in the service of Krsna BalarAma,

TridaNDi BhikSu, Bhakti Visrambha MAdhava
(Text PAMHO:16675543) --------------------------------------

------- End of Forwarded Message ------

Jaya Srila Prabhupada! Reading ki jaya!!

Dear mishra prabhu, krishna decides ....you usually are no longer around,or you are inimical and sadly no longer progress.But the nourishment resides and you become faithless ,callous and attack senior devotees like the inhabitants of sun sampradaya editorial staff.

Hello... anybody there... Haribol.... Haribooool.... Please remove silver spoons and read again the question about sampradaya... it is not sampradaya sin that we are talking about... Anyone there....

My dear ccd, at least you could indeed fathom the perferted reflection of srila Prabhupadas silver spoons and the simple sweet loving affairs which was shared between him and vishnujana swami.well done prabhu....isnt it a sweet sampradaya rasa .Dont worry prabhu i am going to pray for your future advancement.

In 1985 TKG came to Singapore. Many devotees were literally forced to take
initiation and reinitiation from him.

Vrindavan Das (disciple of TKG initiated 1986):


"I had just got over the hangover of Hansadutta, and TKG forced me and my family to take initiation from him. From the very start, his behaviour was duplicitous."

Krishnakatha Das (disciple of TKG initiated 1986) :

"Someone may say that these forced initiations were his mercy, but I think it was sheer foolishness.
TKG was ordering everyone like a Hitler and I was disappointed that he was treating our Temple President like his disciple."

Pralad Das (disciple of TKG initiated 1986) :

"I felt very uncomfortable with him and in my heart I did not feel anything for him.. I was always bemused how Giridhari Das (at that time, now Swami) was taking TKGs chastisement
like a disciple. I did not feel that this was how TKG should treat a
Godbrother."

Citraketu Das (disciple of TKG initiated 1990):

"We found him a very strange person who was always artificially trying to praise someone whenever he
wanted something from him or her. His desire for extremely opulent food was
unbecoming of someone in the renounced order."

http://www.vnn.org/world/WD9809/WD17-2238.html

As for Visnujana (ex-swami) Perhaps he did commit suicide, but the factual details of this account were doctored up? I vaguely remember that we were told that Srila Prabhupada had said that "Vishnujana is hiding." I cant remember the timeline on this, whether he said this before or after he said "He should not have done this."

I do remember in the late 80s, though, that someone was said to have spotted him at the Govindas Restaurant in the North Park area of San Diego. I dont remember who made that claim, and it was certainly never confirmed.

Thank you borokrishna das,for the opportunity to hear from some old freinds like lohitaksa prabhu.He jioned up just after myself ,in murwillambah if i remember correctly and his ex-wife kamodaki devi dasi is serving in Auckland..new Zealand.It is sad such devotees are not mature enough to take responsibility for their own devotional activities,however all is not lost.Could the devotees in question please outline how they were forced by his grace tamala krishna goswami......did the authorities hold a gun to their heads!Beat them up !,Pioson or just ask them nicely in a dramatically dangerous manner.Or realising they were unable for what ever reason to appreciate their new gurus mood ,just be humble and admit they made a substantial mistake themselves.
Since his divine grace tamala krishna goswami has left to serve srila Prabhupada according to his will and desire,these devotees are hopefully able to spoon feed themselves krishns conciousness.If they have taken shelter of the sastra they can understand that we are in need also of siksa guru to give us shelter.Especially since this is considered a bhagavat parampara,or predominantly siksa inspired line according to his divine grace Srila Bhaktisiddanta swami.

According to their realisation,these immature devotees were unfortunately unable to appreciate srila Tamala krishnas goswamis position,unlike giriraja das,who later became giriraja swami who humbly submitted as behooves a sincere sadhaka.Symptomatic of progressive devotees who appreciate how another godbrother is significantly more empowered in pleasing there guru.Great source for such discussion also a know anti iskcon website......vnn world great uttamas like narayanna maharaja come from such environments......until they blaspheme our srila Ac BHACKTIVEDANTA SWAMI Prabhupada.

Yes, it seems Visnujana Swami could not appreciate TKG... but we like them all. I was told TKG had changed a lot in his last years in UK. I was told a lot of very good things about him at that stage.

Srila Prabhupada personally instructed vishnujana swami how a sanyasis should indeed rectify his fall down , which he carried out to the satisfaction of srila PRABHUPADA.....end of story...this is another krishna silver spoon rasa ccd.

My dear sri_govinda_das, It looks like you are not telling us something (that what happens when people say ... end of story...) Tell us some confidential information only TKG would know...

But my dear ccd then you would fall down to my sentimental siver spoon rasa.By the way srila Prabhupada gave tamala krishna goswami his gold embossed tooth when he had it removed,which he used to carry around his neck......actually one day if we become intimate friends maybe we can share this very special information....it is internal sacred knowledge ,for the genuine sadhus ....not for general distribution .You are reasonably astute ccd ,may sri radha damodar benedict you ...into their unique rasa.

Now question to you, what was Visnujanas service situation at the point when Radha Damodara was being shut down and Tamal Krishna Maharaja took his leave to go to Red China. What was his service when he was supposed to extend his passport but disappeared? Did you made up that Prabhupada instructed him on how to end up his life? Is this how the legends are made?

Radha damodaras spoon rasa...........A small group of devotees on a morning walk crowded around his divine grace..... Srila Prabhupada ,he became very sober .....when asked how does a sanyasis rectify his fall- down?
He was seen to extend his neck ,raising his chin visibly.Then commenting that he makes amends by going to a certain confluence of sacred rivers and takes his own life in genuine regret and sincerity....later when personally informed that vishnujana swami had indeed forfilled this sweet spiritual directive .....
Srila Prabhupada was seen to straighten his back ,raise his jaw line and once again in a very sober mood seen to comment, very good.....very good .......hence vishnujana received the mercy of his sublime freind ,ever wellwisher and worshipfull guru......

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite] Radha damodaras spoon rasa...........A small group of devotees on a morning walk crowded around his divine grace..... Srila Prabhupada ,he became very sober .....when asked how does a sanyasis rectify his fall- down?
He was seen to extend his neck ,raising his chin visibly.Then commenting that he makes amends by going to a certain confluence of sacred rivers and takes his own life in genuine regret and sincerity....later when personally informed that vishnujana swami had indeed forfilled this sweet spiritual directive .....
Srila Prabhupada was seen to straighten his back ,raise his jaw line and once again in a very sober mood seen to comment, very good.....very good .......hence vishnujana received the mercy of his sublime freind ,ever wellwisher and worshipfull guru......[/quote]
You realize that this is a product of your imagination, do you? I mean the start, the middle and the end of it.

No.... my guru s both gave me their visual histories......sorry but this is not what many of my godbrothers expected, even they commented what a waste? when they were told it also ....luckily you are not going to receive the full story.....this is internal for our silver spoon team.

This is what SPs servant at the time of VJS disappearance states, ( at no point was he instructed to do it, he did not suggest he will do it, he did not write a note, nobody even suspected it until a story was brought up by TKG a year later after he just left):

Please, we do not want to and should not try to imitate Chota Haridas! If that were the case, then there would be very few bhaktas left in this world. We were enthusiastic and young men and women'85and Srila Prabhupad gave us so much responsibility to preach Krishna consciousness, and to make spiritual progress ourselves. If the waves of time were not always favorable to us, or if we lacked spiritual strength, then we surely will take up in our spiritual development where we left off when favorable breezes of Krishna consciousness. I very much object to individuals who write things that can discourage others in that regard. It takes the wind out of their sails, and it may make someone feel that Srila Prabhupad did not care about them. I hope you can understand this.
When one of our godbrothers or godsisters leave devotional service, we must never close the door to them, lest we gain a harsh judgement from God. '93Judge not lest ye be judged.'94 The moral, give encouragement always. Never relish the failure of others. Failure is just around every corner, and we can only count ourselves are very fortunate if we do not meet with failure.
Vishnujana Maharaj had a very soft heart. He, no doubt, had many conflicting things swirling around in his mind. We must try to laugh a little at our frail situation, make light of it sometimes, so that we can continue on with our spiritual endeavours. Some may say, '93just see how such and such fell down!'94 I advise you all to steer clear of this mentality. Remember that Srila Prabhupad could bring out miraculous things from very unqualified conditioned souls. If you think that you are beyond the influence of Maya'85watch out!

Pusta Krishna

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]Srila Prabhupada personally instructed vishnujana swami how a sanyasis should indeed rectify his fall down , which he carried out to the satisfaction of srila PRABHUPADA.....end of story...this is another krishna silver spoon rasa ccd.[/quote]
The only evidence we have are those who were present there, your interpretation is incorrect, I have asked Pusta Krsna who was a personal servant of Prabhupada at the time, he tells a slightly different story, again the story of possible suicide came later, much later, in 1977, not in 1976 when he left, here what Pusta Krsna Maharaj is saying:

Really, the only facts we have are those that occurred on that morning walk with Srila Prabhupad, Sripad Vishnujana Maharaj, myself and perhaps 5 or 10 others. As we walked through the field on a path several hundred yards from the first Mayapur ISKCON building, Sripad Vishnujana Maharaj softly asked Srila Prabhupad: '93If someone has a falldown, should they follow the example of Chota Haridas?'94 Srila Prabhupad answered humbly, '93yes, but it is not necessary'94.
I do not know what the incident that must have occurred on the Travelling Sankirtan Party in the US with the large bus programs, but it had shaken Sripad Vishnujana Maharaj, obviously. Shortly after that morning walk, His Grace Vishnujana Maharaj left without telling anyone he was going nor his intentions.

Sorry that my gurus moods do not fit within your rasa or pusta krishna dass.Like i said this is an internal matter,tamala krishna maharaja was personally a close friend before they both joined up together.They were extremely close.....according to the sincerity of the disciple these truths are very personal and not pertinent for lesser individuals.....with a different rasa and mood.We are all individuals and see and perceive our gurus differently....some are not so sincere...while others enter the fire for their husbands out of sublime love....as in sati rites like durga did for her desire was to cleanse herself of the body given to her by daksa....5 th Canto..Silver spoon rasa...haribol

In sydney one year we had a rathyatra parade ....an ordinary devotee one of our congregational members chose to end her life under the wheels of the ratha cart....right in front of me.Because she was alone ....professed to us earlier how do i go to krishna?

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]Sorry that my gurus moods do not fit within your rasa or pusta krishna dass.Like i said this is an internal matter,tamala krishna maharaja was personally a close friend before they both joined up together.They were extremely close.....according to the sincerity of the disciple these truths are very personal and not pertinent for lesser individuals.....with a different rasa and mood.We are all individuals and see and perceive our gurus differently....some are not so sincere...while others enter the fire for their husbands out of sublime love....as in sati rites like durga did for her desire was to cleanse herself of the body given to her by daksa....5 th Canto..Silver spoon rasa...haribol[/quote] You see, TKG was send off to China and then Visnujana apparently asked that question and disappeared. I can now understand why on the 4th of May, TKG was restored back to the leadership of Radha Damodara party and yet another letter was sent to Radha Damodara Party members -- it is only after one year waiting (not much of checking time), that TKG actually suggested the suicide to Prabhupada as an explanation of the misterious disappearance of Visnujana Swami which made him a saint. In other words, if Visnujana did not disappeared, there could be no service for TKG after his return from China (where he was actually sent off by Prabhupada)?

You see I found that conversation in the folio (so both TKG and PKG versions are incorrect... just see in 35 years memory does not work that well). See below actual discussion:

Visnujana: Srila Prabhupada, how did Chota Haridasa achieve perfection by killing himself after apparently pouring water on his devotional creeper by talking to a woman?

Prabhupada: His instance was that even an associate of Caitanya Mahaprabhu can fall down. And if one falls down, his punishment is that, suicide. There is no other punishment. He must commit suicide. This is Caitanya Mahaprabhus instruc.... Otherwise he is Caitanya Mahaprabhus personal servant. He cannot fall down. But Caitanya Mahaprabhu showed this instance that "Even one is My personal servant, he can fall down." And if anyone by any cause he falls down, his punishment is he must commit suicide. This is instruction.

Tamala Krsna: Very strict.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. "You have fallen down? You must commit suicide. No more My association."

Pusta Krsna: Is that the same as in the Bhagavad-gita where Krsna says, "For one who is honored, dishonor is worse than death"?

Prabhupada: Yes. That is another thing. Caitanya Mahaprabhu personally taught this. To be victimized by maya is possi.... There is possibility.... Just like Jaya and Vijaya. They were gatekeepers in the Vaikuntha. They also fell down, Hiranyakasipu. So this falldown, there is possibility in any moment because we are very small. We can be captivated by maya at any moment. Therefore we shall be very, very careful. And if you fall down, then punishment is you make suicide. Thats all. Then next life we shall see.

Satsvarupa: But Srila Prabhupada, in The Nectar of Devotion it says devotional service is so pure that theres no prayascitta necessary. Just again engage in your service.

Prabhupada: Yes. This is not prayascitta. This is exemplary punishment. He was not liable to be punished, but they played that "This is the.... This should be done."

Guru-krpa: He did not kill himself immediately. He waited for a year.

---------- Forwarded Message ----------

Text PAMHO:16675543 (60 lines)
From: Bhakti Visrambha Madhava Swami
Date: 21-Dec-08 06:20 -0500 (22:20 +1100)
To: BDC (Book Distribution Curriculum) [427]
To: BDN (Book Distribution Nectar) [2808]
Subject: old sp story..
------------------------------------------------------------

Now it is the end of the marathon, and you must be exhausted. Please note
that My realizations (being that I am a pujari-cook by nature) of book
distribution is: you can only enthusiastically distribute the book that you
personally love. Unless that book has changed your life personally, You will
not be able to continue to change other peoples lives with that book for
very long time. some devotees distribute for a few years, but because they
only sell and dont read, they cannot continue it.

Srila Prabhupada in 1976 told us members of Radha Damodara TSKP in Mayapur
during His darshana the same:

"so You are distributing the books but do you read them also?" Prabhupada
asked us upon entering his room.

"Oh yes srila Prabhupada!" our sannyasi leader Tamal Krsna Maharaja
(confidentally white lied!_he knew weld not dare speak out and challenge
our sannyasi leader verbally.

yet we gave him such an incredulous look, all of us 80 boys..
it was obvious, Tamala Krsna Maharaja who was well intentionally trying to
hide the fact, was not truthfully forthcoming on it.

when 80--90 boys all young say 18-20 years old. all Heard that, it was like
we all crained our necks and looked at Tamal Krsna maharaja with shocking
surprise,, like silently speaking "You said what???"

Srila Prabhupada was smart, clever, he could clearly understand that Tamal
Krsna Maharaja was hiding the real truth, (due to intense competition from
Jayatirtha in London and elsewhere).

Srila Prabhupada was Indignant with Anger..
----------------------------------

Actually it was only on the 4th of May that TKG has got his position back as a leader of the party... and on the 5th of May Pusta Krsna also typed a letter to the RDTSK...

Honolulu
4 May, 1976
76-05-04
To All GBCs in the U.S.A.
My dear GBC disciples,
Please accept my blessings. I have met with Tamala Krishna Goswami and it appears impractical to send anyone to China at this time. I am requesting him to resume his old position as manager of the Radha-Damodara TSKP. Book distribution is my most important concern and these devotees should be given facility to distribute books profusely throughout America. They are also helping with substantial contributions to construct the Temple in Mayapur. Please do the needful to see that everything is done very nicely in a cooperative Krishna Conscious spirit.
I hope that this meets you in good health.
Your ever well-wisher,
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
n.b. Tamala Krishna Goswami will also be assuming his responsibilities as a Bhaktivedanta Book Trustee for America. ACBS

(In other words he was pardoned, and was allowed back...in USA)

No mention of what to happen with Visnujana who had disappeared at the same time that TKG was sent off to China... now that is a VERY serious omission on the part of the story of Visnujana disappearance. And combined with the fact that it is only one year after and only by TKGs push that Prabhupada was suggested that he committed suicide, I mean a year after!!!

Are you suggesting that TKG had Vishnujana whacked by some gundas??? I have hard time believing that.

Yea,thats like suggesting that SP was poisoned by the same,which some devotees do!

I have hard time believing both stories, even as I do not have a very high opinion about these guys.
In that particular case I dont think TKG had balls to do something like that. He might have been a lot of things but he was not a Jewish gangster.

I am just pointing out that there is no evidence to suggest that he left because of a fall and definitelly none to suggest he commited himself to suicide. It is more likely that he just left because due to his preaching tactics both he and TKG got in a terrible touble with the grihastha led community in USA, all the TP and Prabhupada fired them from leadership of RDTSKP. I am sure he was not able to face the fact that what they have told all the members about talking to women is like pouring water on the fire of devotional service" is wrong and because of this they are fired. There are reports of seeing him on the train near Delhi, and there are reports of seeing him in Govindas in north CA a few years after. When you bloop you bloop, no need to make up the stories. I am sure there were quite a few hippie people in those days sorting themself out in Varanasi or in triveni, but nobody saw him personally doing that, they just heard that one westerner was there.... on the balance of probabilities and reading about the state TKG was after they fired him from the job, we know Visnujana a more sensitive person, he would not be able to withstand it (and look at how Prabhupada answered his question about the preaching tactics, very radical answer in the first round). If you ever got fired you know what we talking about, imagine being fired by Prabhupada... now nobody ever heard of his falldown before that...

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite]... he was not a Jewish gangster.[/quote] Actually he was associated and leading a gang in Harlem before he joined, but he became a saintly person due to Prabhupada association. But who is accusing him of murder? Just trying to help out with the image of his bus party. All it took is a guess... and a "maybe" from Prabhupada. Even a maybe from him is a very very powerful maybe. But one needs to see the bigger picture.

Prabhu, I definitely appreciate the angle you are presenting, and all the information I was not aware of - which rightly challenges notions I have, or had, about various people in our movement. I knew that some of Iskcons leaders had very serious criminal connections but I was not aware of TKG being a Jewish gangster before he joined. The power of the holy name is amazing... jaya!

My dear ccd,my guru was no jewish gangster.....possibly sometimes he was srila Prabhupadas gangster.... intent on cheating the demons.....however i would suggest you look at the old films of vishnujana swami just chanting,his spontaneous ,infectious kiratan it is completely unique.
I grew up in devotional service hearing personal stories of his devotion to srila Prabhupada and Radha Damodara....how could he ever stay away,NO he is unique ...like all who truly please his divine grace ,they will be serving him elsewhere as fitting to those who develop such selfless surrender and love.Just look at the film,you will see as i have that such a person is no longer meant for this environment.

My guru told me something different also.....but that you are not allowed to appreciate....silver spoons siddhantas are differcult for those who are chained to the prison house to accept.Strangled by your common sense and mundane logic you look to make such special devotee individuals ordinary.....is this a Frog in his well scenario ccd?
Is that all you can truly appreciate of the foremost servant of srila Prabhupada?,,,,,tamala krishna goswami....A jewish gangster from before he became a devotee.....40 -50 years ago how sadly mundane.I think i will stay with my gurus mood and vision ....By the way srila Prabhupada several times commented that Tamala krishna goswami has a transcendental brain.Also he was with vishnujana swami before he jioned up on a hippy farm,he used to play the flute......they were good freinds even as non devotees......You think they would just seperate without finding each other after many years together?Thats not even reasonable!

I quite like Tama Krishna Maharaja. He is nice, even I always argued with him on the meetings; hey, I was the person who installed WinCOM on his computer, teached him how to use it and set him up on COM with a new password. (But he insisted to keep his compuserve account, he said "I do not want to have a big brother in Sweden".) Sure i have heard about silver spoons, I just do not think this is how the sampradaya is established, nothing agaings TKG or silver spoons.

My dear ccd....how does a sampradaya become mature if not by philosophy and a strong devotional flavour or Rasa?.We all have that siksa relationship will srila Prabhupada ....But i personally and my team have a unique mood handed to me personally by my gurus.Which i find extremely attractive which in my environment is providing the best results in the local preaching while maintaining the majority of my godbrothers and older devotees.I also have my personal realisations which are indeed pertinent to my own vision now my gurus have generally left this world.I am the result of their mood ,their personal guidance ,their unique way of attacking the external material energy which possibly is specifically for myself.
The sampradaya is already established since srila Rupa goswami provided the basis.However the iskcon preaching flavour will reveal its potency according to those who sincerely follow their gurus mood and personal instructions in my humble opinion.As a result of this there will indeed be more variety , differences and diversity which should be embraced while being loyal to our individual diksa gurus desires while also respecting our shared unity of purpose, becuse srila Prabhupada is our siksa guru.Unity and diversity is indeed the fine line iskcon is attempting to follow personallyas individuals and as a worldwide society.I will always be a servant of those who follow the silverspoons rasa,vishnujana-tamala krishna ,indradumya swami ....even sri prahlada dass kirtan rasa.Because it is the superior because of its all en-compassing ,uniting iskcon shakti.

Personally it has huge advantages,because had my guru not told me how Krishna used to tap arjuna on his shoulders out of love and brotherly affection ....i would still be clinging to my impersonal white man,callous nature. Which my devotee wife is very adament is my personal obstacle which i should now reject......then embrace a more sweeter demenour and compassionate outlook especially to those less fortunate.Such is the rasa connected to our silvespoons rasa.

ccd Commented
"I am just pointing out that there is no evidence to suggest that he left because of a fall and definitelly none to suggest he commited himself to suicide." in response to the mounting volumes of fables that are being presented here.

many know that a poster on audarya fellowship website has claimed, when questioned closely about his first person accounts of early ISKCON pastimes, that he was, in fact, vishnujana
formerly of the sanyass ashram. he posted under the name g Hari:

gHari
Senior Member

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<<< >>>

still, for some, fantasies are all there are.

Besides the fantasies (drowning) and unrelated facts (such as missing silver spoons) the facts are:

Prabhupada personally reversed GBC resolutions in favor of grihastha leaders,
He made TKG to resign and sent him off to China with Trivikrama Swami,
TKG came back, asked back for his position two months after VS dissapearance,
Visnujana Swami did not ask if a sannyasi should commit suicide after fall and he did not have a falldown.He asked: Srila Prabhupada, how did Chota Haridasa achieve perfection by killing himself after apparently pouring water on his devotional creeper by talking to a woman?

The facts are you are not involved in this spoon rasa ccd,and they were never missing.....however Tamala krishna goswami disciples are the most steady dominant devotees in the south Pacific.I am not up to play in the usa....but i am sure they would be solid .Since thats where most of his devotees are.By the way who would you take your inspiration from?Whose disciple are you prabhu.....the reciprocal facts as you put it would be appreciated.

ccd said: "Visnujana Swami did not ask if a sannyasi should commit suicide after fall and he did not have a falldown"

that part about the "no falldown" is not accurate. there was a 16 year old bhaktin known as "cookie" who was left in the LA temple in the aftermath of his disappearance who claimed to have learned more than just how to play the mrdnga from vishnujana prabhu. most of those present at the time know this to be accurate.

Is it a fact or a janmastami das fact?

Here is an eyewitness (finally):

When Visnujana Maharaja disappeared at the Mayapura festival in, I believe it was 1976, Tamal Krsna Maharaja had no idea that he was on his way to commit suicide (If that'92s what he did). I can confidently say this because as a new bus leader TKG had arranged that I occupy a room with himself and VJM during the festival. Spending day and night with the two of them I was privilege to the conversations that went on in that room. For the most part these conversations were politically surcharged with various leaders (particularly sannyasis) constantly coming in to argue about the (grihasta verses sannyasa) issue.

Overall, VJM seemed disturbed by all the politics so when he failed to show up for bed one night everyone just thought that he had left to get away from it all. This is what TKG first believed had happened saying that he though that VJM had gone to Calcutta for a break. Later, after he had been gone for a few days TKG said that VJM must have skipped out to Puri. To my knowledge no one ever saw Visnujana Maharaja again, including his parents who looked for him at the SF Ratha yatra for the next couple of years.

Brahma das

1) Could someone tell me the relationship (siksha or dhiksha) of GV Gurus listed in the Gita As IT IS ? I have listed a few that I know

22. Lord Caitanya
23. Ruc0u363 pa, (Svaru363 pa, Sanu257 tana)
24. Raghunu257 tha, Ju299 va
25. Ku7771 u7779 u7751 adu257 sa
26. Narottama
27. Viu347 vanu257 tha
28. (Baladeva) Jagannu257 tha
29. Bhaktivinoda [Diksha Guru was Bipin Bihari, Siksha Guru was Jagannatha]
30. Gaurakiu347 ora
31. Bhaktisiddhu257 nta Sarasvatu299
32. A. C. Bhaktivedanta Svu257 mu299 Prabhupu257 da [Diksha Guru is #31]

2) I know in ISKCON today Diksha involves fire sacrifice - was this the case in past years ? For Siksha, are there any such practices ?

[quote][cite] radhav:[/cite]1) Could someone tell me the relationship (siksha or dhiksha) of GV Gurus listed in the Gita As IT IS ? I have listed a few that I know

22. Lord Caitanya
23. Ruc0u363 pa, (Svaru363 pa, Sanu257 tana)
24. Raghunu257 tha, Ju299 va
25. Ku7771 u7779 u7751 adu257 sa
26. Narottama
27. Viu347 vanu257 tha
28. (Baladeva) Jagannu257 tha
29. Bhaktivinoda [Diksha Guru was Bipin Bihari, Siksha Guru was Jagannatha]
30. Gaurakiu347 ora
31. Bhaktisiddhu257 nta Sarasvatu299
32. A. C. Bhaktivedanta Svu257 mu299 Prabhupu257 da [Diksha Guru is #31]
[/quote]
You probably know that Lord Caitanya had a guru named Isvara Puri, he was the person who gave him a mantra. Usually it is a mantra that one gets in initiation or some important instruction.
It is not true that Prabhupada is "Diksha Guru is #31" because some of acaryas listed did not give diksa at all and there is no direct diksa link between Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Gaurakisora dasa Babaji.

[quote][cite] radhav:[/cite]
2) I know in ISKCON today Diksha involves fire sacrifice - was this the case in past years ? For Siksha, are there any such practices ?[/quote] There is no shiksa fire sacrifice in the tradition. When you sit in front of the speaker on the Bhagavatam class you do not do it =) The fact is that we have so many gurus, in the parampara only the gurus that are very prominent and acaryas are listed.

[quote][cite] radhav:[/cite]

2) I know in ISKCON today Diksha involves fire sacrifice - was this the case in past years ?[/quote] It was not the case when you received a harinama or Hare Krishna mantra. I was usually the case if you received a pancaratrica mantra (or a mantra to worship Vishnu/Krishna that starts with Om or Klim etc), eg the ten syllable mantra, gopal mantra or gopibhava mantra, but sometimes there were exceptions, fire sacrifice is not essential for that.

diksa-guru-krpa kori mantra-upadesa,koriyadekham krishna tattva nirdesa,siksa-guru-brnda krpa koriya apar.sadhaka sikhan sadaher anga-sar...The initiating spiritual mastere(diksaguru) shows his causeless mercy by giving the disciples instructions in chanting the mantra.By so doing,he pionts his disciples in the direction of the truths pertaining to the supreme lord ,Sri Krishna.I consider the numerous instructing spiritual masters(siksa-guru) to be more important,for they show more mercy by training the sadakhas in all the essential aspects of sadahana bhakti........Kalyana--kalpataru....bhaktivinoda takura...
This amazing sloka was suggested to myself by a wonderful sanyasis recently,whom had just personally finished a thorough preparation to be made into a book.
His correspodence about our sika -bhagavat line ,which he termed the Chaitanya-Saraswati siksa Parampara.The study of which ....his notes and virtual manuscript in detail alter permanently my own veiw of what is infact our parampara,its constitution is siksa in nature,though diksa is how we initially develop faith and devotional sukriti .The best appreciations are held in high regard by the disciples of Bhaktisiddanta saraswati takura.But thorough appreciation eluded myself personally till i matured and put aside my own veiws and bias.This allowed the lines true sastric evidence and substance of guru tattva to manifest properly within my self hopefully.Hopefully i can offer some simple appreciation to help others like myself in need.