Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

We are not trained to deal with guilt trip of the Catholic upbringing.

We are concentrating on three things:

Sambhanda - knowldege of how you are connected to Krsna, God, as his tiny part and how it is you nature to love and serve Him. He loves you the way you actually are.

Abhideya - it the practice, practice of how to love God, Krsna. The practice may be similar to other religions, but it does not involve unnecessary guilt. Only enough to keep you humble and begging for mercy in the dania mood.

Prayodjana - the ultimate goal of the jiva, we associate with this stage by hearing and experiencing it through the sacred sound. Again your guilt is not required there, as all souls, according to Upanisadas, are equal, and if you understand first two parts correctly and feel humble, you will understand you joyful relationship with Krsna and his dearmost servitors at that stage and by the mercy of Srila Prabhupada.

Because we are aspiring kripa-siddhis, we depend on mercy, mercy comes to those who feel humble, fallen and desperate for it. But guilt is negative, as if you are rejecting mercy, so give it up.

Because the process of S-A-P above does not require your full knowledge of the fall, and because you did not actually fall, you should be positive and do not look back, as it is the same as turning your back on Krsna. Be positive and do your service with enthusiasm, which also mean that you should be humble, to sort out false enthusiasm.

I did not have Catholic upbringing, but know a few of RCC people, they all have some quilt, but they all try to transform it to the Vaisnava mood of begging for mercy of Krsna and guru, humbly.

In short, if the guilt (or anything else) prevents our devotional service (=the liberated activity after we understood our fallen situation and surrendered to Krsna) it should be given up.
From my pov, guilt is the border between material and devotional activities. Its like a switch helping to replace one by the other. No point to press the switch continuously. To indulge in it is another form of false ego trip.
Otoh, to realize our constitutional minute position as jivas leads to humility.
Not sure if this helps, just my take.

Hare Krishna Bakerji,

All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

The Christian guilt trip and the lack of love experienced through western upbringing are indeed formidable stumbling blocks.
Things that help me:
1. Remembering that no matter what i did/do wrong, Srila Prabhupada as Sri Caitya Guru loves me so much--He has never and will never leave my heart and He keeps attempting to bring me back to him and Sri Krishna, life after life.
2. Depend on His attempts and His love, not our own. Dont think we are trying so hard and They arent interested. Actually its the other way around, they send their sons, servants, incarnations, Selves, Holy Names, prasadam, Sri Murthies, philosophers, life experiences and all, just for us. They provide for us materially (thank You very much) and spiritually (oh thank You so much) in every way.

"Its hard to say how I felt, but the closest is probably choking, or being strangled, and this feeling hasnt left me since. I have been thinking about this rebellion ever since, for almost thirty years now. Many Christians would probably say that this is how one is supposed to feel about it anyway, and that having such feelings is only proof that I have really rebelled against God and that the whole doctrine of rebellion and eternal damnation is true"

I think your reaction shows that you are a lover of God by your nature (born with some Godly qualities) and your feelings are more due to shame at failing to act on this platform. This is a good sign.

Srila Prabhupada, on the other hand, makes it seem very logical, not hateful, that due to wanting to be God we are sent here to act out the role of being God and it is His kindness to allow us to do so. It is not so shameful or against God as it is wrong for us. God does not need us at all, He is served by hundred and thousands of laksmis. He tries to save us for our sakes because He knows we will only be truly happy with Him. If we feel graitude at considering these kindness on His part, that gratitude gives birth to real devotion.

""Oh, time for japa. Again a time to think how I have been such a swine to turn my back on God." Rude words, but this is how it is."
Try this: "Oh time for japa, time to cry for the sweet, merciful, attractive Lord to save me from the effects of my stupid mistake of wanting to forget Him [or] time to reach out for the sweet, merciful, attractive Lord Who has so kindly made it easy for a miserable souls like myself to please and reach Him." Hell surely hear your hearts cry and if you pay attention, you will see Him helping you.

As far as an appropriate attitude toward the Fall. There are two important considerations.
1. Many people especially leaders use the Fall to infer they are indeed liberated souls on level of Srila Prabhupada. This is cheating.
2. As far as our future...is it assured? Will we get out of this place of suffering, guaranteed? The pure devotees pray that they may be in heaven or hell, life after life, as long as they can engage in the service of the Lord and His devotees. Our suffering is not really because we are in this world, it is because we do not use this world fully in devotional service and are not fully conscious of Him.

Quote from Srila Gour Govinda Swami Srila Gurudeva:
"Be enthusiastic, patient and confident. Not depressed and disappointed--be determined, "In this very life i must get the lotus feet of Sri Krishna! Krishna is placing a test before you. You have to pass it. Tolerate it"

Haribol

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]We are not trained to deal with guilt trip of the Catholic upbringing.[/quote]

[br]How come? Is it because this "guilt trip" is specific to each individual, and so there can be no general guidelines for how to deal with it? Or because the person is in effect still a member of a Christian religious tradition and devotees dont wish to interfere with that? ... Or because it simply means a lot of trouble, like a heavy drug addict or bum primarily mean a lot of trouble, even though they may have some interest in Krishna consciousness?[br]

[br]You can tell me, its allright, I wont hold it against you. Id rather know the truth even if it is most unpleasant, than have to guess, read between the lines and deal with unexplained isolation.[br]

[br][quote]Because we are aspiring kripa-siddhis, we depend on mercy, mercy comes to those who feel humble, fallen and desperate for it. But guilt is negative, as if you are rejecting mercy, so give it up.[/quote]

[br]How do I give up guilt? It doesnt seem to me to be something tangible, something that I could wash away like dirt from my hands. It seems like everything is defined by it.

[quote][cite] Baker:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]

[br][quote]Because we are aspiring kripa-siddhis, we depend on mercy, mercy comes to those who feel humble, fallen and desperate for it. But guilt is negative, as if you are rejecting mercy, so give it up.[/quote]

[br]How do I give up guilt? It doesnt seem to me to be something tangible, something that I could wash away like dirt from my hands. It seems like everything is defined by it.[/quote][/quote]

When I say that we are not "trained", it means that there is no specific training to one specific type of guilt - Catholic - that we have in parampara.
[br][br]
There is also no specific anartha that has been highlighter by the acharyas of this kind. There are similar anarthas, but not this one, I guess the quilt is so far from the mentality of people born in India.
[br][br]
What is needed is replacing this superficial hopelessness (based on material qualifications and upbringing) with a correct hope, following in the footsteps of Srila Rupa Goswami: Asa-bandha (see Nectar of Devotion, 18 - Great Hope).
[br][br]
Having said that you may consider that desire to rid of aparadha is a kind of guilt. The word aparadha is used by Sanatana Goswami, when he described his dukha and decided to commit suicide. Another way he would say about himself - nica-jati adhama - one without a proper cast/family and irreligious (a close sentiment).
[br][br]
So the answer is given by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, that one has to experience it in the sentiment of separation from Krishna:
[br][br]
premi bhakta viyoge cahe deha chadite
preme krsna mile, seha na pare marite
[br][br]
"Because of feelings of separation from Krsna, an exalted devotee sometimes wants to give up his life. By such ecstatic love, however, one attains the audience of Krsna, and at that time he cannot give up his body"
[br][br]
So the guilt can be called kubuddhi - nonsensical intelligence.

[br][br]
nica-jati nahe krsna-bhajane ayogya
sat-kula-vipra nahe bhajanera yogya

"A person born in a low family is not unfit for discharging devotional service to Lord Krsna, nor is one fit for devotional service simply because he is born in an aristocratic family of brahmanas."

One should give up this identification with the past and your family upbringing.
[br][br]
yei bhaje sei bada, abhakta-hina, chara
krsna-bhajane nahi jati-kuladi-vicara
[br][br]
"Anyone who takes to devotional service is exalted, whereas a nondevotee is always condemned and abominable. Therefore in the discharge of devotional service to the Lord, there is no consideration of the status of ones family."
[br][br]
Still one should feel meak and humbe:
[br][br]
dinere adhika daya kare bhagavan - Krsna is always favorable to the humble and meek, not proud aristocrats.
[br][br]
Sanatana himself gives his realisation after his ordeal: ina-janaika-visayapara-karuna-mayiti sruti-puranadi-visrutih By humility and meekness one attracts the attention of Krsna. That is the verdict of all the Vedas. Therefore if one becomes very humble and meek, he can easily attain the lotus feet of Krsna in this age of Kali.
[br][br]
So as with any emotion that is influenced by tama-guna, you need to elevate it and direct it towards Krishna, try and try again and you will be able to replace your lower guilt with actual humility in chanting the names. Just think yourself a puppet of the will of Krishna and the acharyas, in this way you should not feel guilt for acting or not acting in a certain way - complete atmanivedanam is the final solution to guilt.

Dear Baker, we are meant to accept the mood which is personally displayed by our Iskcon founder Archarya Srila Prabhupada.Who propounds that we are indeed eternal servants of krishna.Who due to our almost eternalprison time spent in our conditioned state are prone to stay enamoured by mayadevis allurements.This prison and its unlimited ability to attract us, keeps us away from our best wellwishers guru and krishna.We subsequently choose to accept all offerings of maya, or since you come from a christian background the devil

This illusionary energy,maya or the devil is intune with our lower nature and is intent on constantly keeping us separate from guru and his desire to reawaken our original love for our heavenly farther.Hence we accept the mood of srila Prabhupada since he is our GURU,siksa or diksa and our eternal ever well wisher.It is his veiw that we are eternal servants of krishna and that the spiritual world is our original home we are meant to simply accept out of love,duty and sincerity. Chaste followers are by qualification meant to have naturally imbibed this attitude ,while serving over the years or out of krishnas sublime descending mercy.

The guilt you speak of is part of your individual karma,which will gradually fall away as you purify your mind,intelligence and lastly your false identity by the chanting of hare krishna.We can receive the mercy,of advanced devotees by a humble service attitude and we automatically progress.As a younger devotee try and only take prasadam ,especially from senior devotees. If possible men and women who in your opinion are preachers and hopefully free from envy and the propensity to criticise others who are not there loving followers.

Baker please attempt to be patient,for with constant endeavour and sincerity krishna will bless you .Simply this mode of ignorance you are haunted by will very soon be destroyed if you become further sincere.Chant and eat as much prasadam as humanely possible and you will become purified. your servant sri_ govinda_ das@yahoo.com

it is explained that ultimately there is no imperfection or fault in the Lords creation and arrangement and this would include the minute independent nature of Jiva.

ysvt

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]
[br][br]What is needed is replacing this superficial hopelessness (based on material qualifications and upbringing) with a correct hope, following in the footsteps of Srila Rupa Goswami: Asa-bandha (see Nectar of Devotion, 18 - Great Hope).[/quote]

[br]But how do I know it is indeed the correct hope? I would have to be omniscient for that, would I not? Or I would at least have to take for granted that the philosophy and practice of Krishna consciousness is the one and only right one. Which I dont. I suppose if I did, then all my problems would be contextualized and minimized.

It just takes to understand the position of Krsna, guru parampara, sadhu and sastra.

> the philosophy and practice of Krishna consciousness is the one and only right one.

Its the one and only right one to develop raganuga bhakti toward Radha-Krsna. If one wants to have another relationship with Krsna (aisvarya), or Visnu, or His various expansions and aspects, other systems may apply.

How do I know I understood something? I might have the feeling that I understood something, and my actions based on that understanding might seem to go as expected. Still, that would be no proof of perfect understanding, just of currently adequate understanding.

I really couldnt say what relationship I want with Krishna. Isnt this relationship a given for the soul anyway, so that the soul has no choice in it?

I do think that being right about matters pertaining to God is of infinite importance, and that one cannot afford to make mistakes in this regard.
However, such an outlook seems to imply that one has to have omniscience. It doesnt appear I have omniscience, so this oulook of requiring omniscience leaves me in a no-win situation - which I dont want.

What am I missing here?

[quote][cite] Baker:[/cite]How do I know I understood something? I might have the feeling that I understood something, and my actions based on that understanding might seem to go as expected. Still, that would be no proof of perfect understanding, just of currently adequate understanding.

I really couldnt say what relationship I want with Krishna. Isnt this relationship a given for the soul anyway, so that the soul has no choice in it?

I do think that being right about matters pertaining to God is of infinite importance, and that one cannot afford to make mistakes in this regard.
However, such an outlook seems to imply that one has to have omniscience. It doesnt appear I have omniscience, so this oulook of requiring omniscience leaves me in a no-win situation - which I dont want.

What am I missing here?[/quote]
I think you can safely put these in the killer question thread;-)

You understanding grows and yes, there is no perfect understanding without reference to the sastra, to say what relationship you have with Krsna you should consult guru and sastra, and in essence you are a servitor. Please do not make any mistake and do not take yourself as a master in relation to God. One does not need to have omniscience, just need to faithfully follow the path of Bhagavata-bhakti. What is missing here is actual process, application of all angas of bhakti, it is a practical science, where if you apply angas correctly you will get the desire to actually understand and realize yourself. At present mere theoretical discussion will not be insufficient in the matter of "infinite importance". You can debate on it, but debate will not help. Bhaja govindam... (meaning actually do it).

Yes. Reading Prabhupadas books makes a tangible difference.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]One does not need to have omniscience, just need to faithfully follow the path of Bhagavata-bhakti.[/quote]

[br]But how does one know one will not be cheated?

[br]Is there really no other way but to (try to) take a giant leap of faith?

One can start bhakti yoga with small steps and see the results. As I said, start with reading the books.

One needs faith in the process to start. It is not your regular faith, not a blind faith, it is called sraddha and is based on many lifetimes of sukritis and meeting a pure devotee or his instructions.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]One can start bhakti yoga with small steps and see the results. As I said, start with reading the books.[/quote]

[br]I have read quite a bit already, thank you. And chanted. I have kept the values and to some extent practice of the four regulative principles my whole life anyway, so that was nothing new or particularly difficult.[br]

[br]Ive read some books, some scriptures, articles, listened to talks, discussed a bit in online forums, and thought, "Oh, this is nice, seems like just the right thing." Then I went to Krishna.com, and then to a nama-hatta and experienced a culture shock, to put it mildly. The actual devotees werent anything much like I expected. The whole thing looked like "What is said in the scriptures, stays in the scriptures. We here do things as we see fit. We are advanced, and if you dont see it, its just proof of your own retardation."[br]

[br]It was very much like back in Catholicism, where I was the lowest person in the hierarchy and in the name of respecting seniority, I had to respect, trust and believe everyone who was in any way senior/superior to me. No matter what they said or did, and especially if what they advised me looked like it contradicts the scriptures.[br]

[br]I have been criticized (even in front of everyone else) and advised by devotees in ways that I am quite sure were in discord with the scriptures. Yet those devotees looked like they would not take any objections, would consider any request for clarification to be an offense, and that I simply need to take their word for gold, my understanding of scriptures and practice be damned - because I am "a newcomer and clueless anyway".[br]

[br]On the one hand, I dont mind so much such a treatment per se, its their thing after all. But it does bring up for me greater issues of what exactly is a Vaishnava and Vaishnava behavior, how much I need to surrender to my seniors/superiors, how much I can and should trust my own understanding of scriptures and practice.[br]

My dear baker although krishna demands alot from us he also personally reciprocates very sweetly.The next step is to give up the association of non devotees. Hence to find a suitable temple to surrender to , that is able to provide you with a senior devotee who personally inspires you. Next one must serve under his or her guidance. Either full time or part time, but it must be regular. Preferably he should be compassionate, have a natural empathy for you and want the best for you. You will naturally be able to reveal your feelings to this devotee. His mercy will enable you to progress gradually until you are able to take shelter of a qualified guru. Otherwise it will remain to a large extent a mystery ....pure devotional service to lord sri krishna and his consort radharani is an extremely rare thing which is far far more special than what was offered in our shared christian backgrounds.

It is not for everyone but one needs the feeling or perception of fall, to keep humbly begging for mercy. However difference with guilt is that this is a positive feeling and it makes one more connected with God. I am afraid it is too easy to come across in a bit of a patronizing spirit, please forgive us baker for it.

Please dont apologize, it makes me look like I have a chip on my shoulder. :p

Ive heard once that one becomes an adult when one is faced with a decision that nobody else can make in ones stead, nor help one with it.

Perhaps Ive reached that point.

I suggested you start with reading the books since you speak as you didnt or it at least your knowledge remained theoretical. Bhaktiyoga is practical and it cant be practiced without other devotees, at least not in the beginning. My realization is that spiritual intelligence develops by a sincere service to devotees. Otoh, I have an experience of persons who remain on the theoretical level and keep on asking, without much understanding. The simple fact somehow dont sink in or are easily forgotten.
Therere various levels of devotees. Associate with those who inspire you. The reactions you experienced are typical for kanisthas. Inquiry is definitely encouraged in our tradition but some may feel threatened by it.

Ccd wrote - " and because you did not actually fall,"

This is simultaneously true and not true.

.

The fall issue is actually one of the more important understandings in spiritual life. Up until the time of Srila Prabhupada no Gaudiya Vaishnava teacher preached that we fell from Vaikuntha, or that living entities were in direct contact with the Supreme Personality of Godhead prior to entering the material world. Everybody knew we all came from the region of Brahman called the Viraja river, separating the material and spiritual worlds. And that is a siddhantic understanding of all Vaishnava sampradayas, not just Gaudiyas. We can only speculate why sometimes SP explained tha Fall differently to his disciples. My theory is that it was a case where a guru is calling the snake a rope, so that his neophyte disciples are not afraid of it. However, a mature disciple should know the difference between the rope and the snake - there is no need to forever claim that the snake is actually a rope.

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite]The fall issue is actually one of the more important understandings in spiritual life. Up until the time of Srila Prabhupada no Gaudiya Vaishnava teacher preached that we fell from Vaikuntha, or that living entities were in direct contact with the Supreme Personality of Godhead prior to entering the material world. Everybody knew we all came from the region of Brahman called the Viraja river, separating the material and spiritual worlds. And that is a siddhantic understanding of all Vaishnava sampradayas, not just Gaudiyas. We can only speculate why sometimes SP explained tha Fall differently to his disciples. My theory is that it was a case where a guru is calling the snake a rope, so that his neophyte disciples are not afraid of it. However, a mature disciple should know the difference between the rope and the snake - there is no need to forever claim that the snake is actually a rope.[/quote]

Nonsence speculation!

It is not so black and white,that is the more matue understanding that u should know!

Ysvt.

http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/10-09/editorials5231.htm

Ongoing...

My dear kula- pavanna i think we both should accept Nrsingha as our siksa guru...after your inept speculation.....hare krishna.Our guru srila Prabhupada has established the unique understanding why do you not just accept it....there is no room here for your common sense or personal opinion.

> Up until the time of Srila Prabhupada no Gaudiya Vaishnava teacher preached that we fell from Vaikuntha, or that living entities were in direct contact with the Supreme Personality of Godhead prior to entering the material world.

Not so. Recently I came over this (BVT - Sri Sri Kalyana kalpataru part 1, song 3, verse 3):

tumi to jadiya jnana, sada koritecho dhyana,
tahe srsti koro caracar
e duhkha kohibo kare, nitya-pati-parihari
tuccha-tattve korile nirbhar

Dear mind, according to your materialistic knowledge and feeble enlightenment, you always meditate on so-called scientific subject matters, but all of that is simply limited to all the moving and non-moving things which are confined within the jurisdiction of this temporarily created universe. To whom shall I tell the story of my anguish? I have abandoned my eternal Father simply to rely on such an unsubstantial reality!

(other meanings of pati - Lord, husband)

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]> Up until the time of Srila Prabhupada no Gaudiya Vaishnava teacher preached that we fell from Vaikuntha, or that living entities were in direct contact with the Supreme Personality of Godhead prior to entering the material world.

Not so. Recently I came over this (BVT - Sri Sri Kalyana kalpataru part 1, song 3, verse 3):
[/quote]

Do you want me to present other quotes from BVT proving otherwise? It is a poetic verse you quote and it can be interpreted in several ways. The teachings of BVT (such as in Jaiva Dharma) on the subject of jivas fall in are rather well known and have been quoted on this site before.

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite][quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]> Up until the time of Srila Prabhupada no Gaudiya Vaishnava teacher preached that we fell from Vaikuntha, or that living entities were in direct contact with the Supreme Personality of Godhead prior to entering the material world.

Not so. Recently I came over this (BVT - Sri Sri Kalyana kalpataru part 1, song 3, verse 3):
[/quote]

Do you want me to present other quotes from BVT proving otherwise? It is a poetic verse you quote and it can be interpreted in several ways. The teachings of BVT (such as in Jaiva Dharma) on the subject of jivas fall in are rather well known and have been quoted on this site before.[/quote] We all know what BVT said. Why bother... I honestly and seriously can not see a contradiction of the the two points of view, even after reading all apparently contradictory views. So for me more quotes do not prove anything, I would rather anyone explain to me how you apply a concept of time or of before and after to the realm where there is no time... I take poetry as a better pramana for that.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]... I would rather anyone explain to me how you apply a concept of time or of before and after to the realm where there is no time... [/quote]

I do not believe that the concept of time has anything to do with this issue. No acharya ever brought it up before as an argument.

Tattva can not be discussed in relative terms, the tattva is summarised simply:

visnu-saktih para prokta
ksetrajnakhya tatha para
avidya-karma-samjnan ya
trtiya saktir isyate

Originally, Krsnas energy is spiritual, and the energy known as the living entity is also spiritual. However, there is another energy, called illusion, which consists of fruitive activity. That is the Lords third potency.

Avidya is not para. In every samhita, the jiva (living entity) has been accepted as eternal, and in the Pancaratras the birth of the jiva is completely denied. Anything that is produced must also be annihilated. Therefore if we accept the birth of the living entity, we also have to accept his annihilation.

It is a lack of understading to suggest that no acharya ever brought up time as a consideration.

krsna bhuli sei jiva anadi-bahirmukha
ataeva maya tare deya samsara-duhkha

The point of anadi - from the time immemorial or before the time is critical here. Srila Prabhupada in the comments to this verse states: When he enters the material energy, he is subjected to the threefold time measurement-past, present and future. Srila Sridhara maharaja of Navadvipa writes: anadi bahirmukha. Anadi means that which has no beginning. When we enter the land of exploitation, we come within the factor of time, space, and thought.

In Jaiva Dharma Bhaktivinoda Thakura writes:

"It is not possible to give an historical account describing when, in time, the soul first fell into the material world. That is why it is said `anadi-bahirmukha (the living entity has been attracted by the external feature from time immemorial). This staying away from Krsna and the time of entering mayas world are both different from the souls eternal nature. They are perversions of it.

And again Bhaktivinoda Thakura makes the same point:

"From the time jiva comes into this material world he has already rejected krsna, and so there are no historical statements recording his fall down. This truth justi-fies the use of the phrase ---`anadi bahirmukha"

I am surprised that for 30 years of your devotional life you did not try to answer the question, why are you looking for historical statements if there NONE, it is before time, anadi. Same statement in explanation of this verse belongs to Jiva Goswami, in Tattva sandarbha where this bengali verse if quoted : "When he enters the material energy he is subjected to the threefold time measurement-past, present, and future. Past, present, and future belong only to the material world; they do not exist in the spiritual world. The living entity is eternal, and he existed before the creation of this material world. Unfortunately he has forgotten his relationship with Krsna. The living entitys forgetfulness is described herein as anadi, which indicates that it has existed since time immemorial"

It is a quick one to reply... there are more point on this key verse.

Most comentators see the term anadi in this context as an approximation, as in: it was so long ago, practically forever (from time immemorial). It has nothing to do with a somehow different concept of time used by the acharyas. It is an issue of language and it is easily understood by everyone as such.

In the past, nobody was trying to prove that the living entity is somehow both fallen and not fallen from Vaikuntha because of two different concepts of time - such explanations arose only among the followers of SP who tried to reconcile his contradictory statements on the issue of jivas fall. I find such explanations to be just word jugglery which explains nothing.

Contradictions are only seen by those who have no realization. There is no contradiction between the quotes I produced. First you get out of the time and then you will see how this actually looks from the prayodjana perspective, what is the use of this discussion otherwise?

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite] Past, present, and future belong only to the material world; they do not exist in the spiritual world. The living entity is eternal, and he existed before the creation of this material world. Unfortunately he has forgotten his relationship with Krsna. The living entitys forgetfulness is described herein as anadi, which indicates that it has existed since time immemorial"
[/quote]

The spiritual world is eternal present in the sense that the passage of time does not impede or deteriorate anything. Thats all.
You may be suggesting that all living entities had a direct relationship with Krsna (as in Krsna from Goloka) before their fall, but besides some statements of SP to that effect there is no shastric or traditional evidence that this is the case. Nobody falls from Vaikuntha, they only fall from brahmajyoti - that is my understanding based on the study of shastra and our tradition. It is very easy to understand falling from brahmajyoti, and impossible to understand falling from Vaikuntha. I would leave it at that.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]Contradictions are only seen by those who have no realization. There is no contradiction between the quotes I produced. First you get out of the time and then you will see how this actually looks from the prayodjana perspective, what is the use of this discussion otherwise?[/quote]

I am very glad that you are already on the other side with the correct realizations, prabhuji...
Explanations of BVT, BST and Sridhara Maharaja are good enough for me and they are based on the shastras including major Upanishad sruti texts.

REALITY IS PARADOX!!

Ysvt.

Ok,its like this dudes! BSST explains that we existed in spiritual world in neutral rasa. It Only when we learn the process of nescience and that of transcendental knowledge side by side that we can transcend the influence of repeated birth and death and enjoy the full blessings of immortality.
This is what qualifies the jiva to enter the deeper rasas Of the VIP lounge that is Vraja prema loka, the full blessings of immortality. At last one becomes a man and Confidential Servitor. Nitya-siddha Jiva that has trancendended his own illusionory nature and has matured thus.
U get me?
U dig?
This is my unique contribution!

Jaya Srila Prabhupada!

Ysvt,Nrsinghacarya.

Blessings!

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]Ok,its like this dudes! BSST explains that we existed in spiritual world in neutral rasa.
This is my unique contribution!
[/quote]
Something similar in The Vedanta - Its Morphology And Ontology... good

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]Ok,its like this dudes! BSST explains that we existed in spiritual world in neutral rasa. [/quote]

Yes, all living entities in the brahmajyoti are in the santa rasa. BSST clearly says we all fell from brahmajyoti and that is the end of this story for me, as it makes perfect sense and is based on both shastra and tradition.

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite][quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]Ok,its like this dudes! BSST explains that we existed in spiritual world in neutral rasa. [/quote]

Yes, all living entities in the brahmajyoti are in the santa rasa. BSST clearly says we all fell from brahmajyoti and that is the end of this story for me, as it makes perfect sense and is based on both shastra and tradition.[/quote] If it is end of story and if inconcievable makes perfect sense to you should not really worry about what others say. Just keep spreading the Gospel... while in our tradition we do accept all angles of vision, and yes the conclusion is the source at the same time. Certainly you have to get through the brahmajoti/glance of sankarsana to get here.

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite]Do you want me to present other quotes from BVT proving otherwise? It is a poetic verse you quote and it can be interpreted in several ways. The teachings of BVT (such as in Jaiva Dharma) on the subject of jivas fall in are rather well known and have been quoted on this site before.[/quote]

Is poetry of Vaisnava acaryas less important than their other writings?
Can you give those several other interpretations of those three words?

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]
Is poetry of Vaisnava acaryas less important than their other writings?
Can you give those several other interpretations of those three words?[/quote]
In poetry of BVT emotions are usually the most prominent, not precise philosophical definitions.

Other interpretations of: "I have abandoned my eternal Father simply to rely on such an unsubstantial reality!"
1. For a living entity in Brahman Lord Vishnu is still the eternal Father, master, or counterpart (pati).
2. This refers to choices we make in this life, or Bhaktivinoda made earlier in his life (just like sometimes he says: Bhaktivinoda weeps.

Because in other places Bhaktivinoda clearly writes about living entities originally coming from Brahman and never as coming from Vaikuntha we must interpret this poetry in the above mentioned way.

'97 For the benefit of the devotees some verses are being given that are about the jivas patanam-falldown into the material realm...

http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2671.htm

Ysvt.

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]'97 For the benefit of the devotees some verses are being given that are about the jivas patanam-falldown into the material realm...
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2671.htm
[/quote]

So that would mean that Krsna is a liar, because in Bhagavad Gita He repeatedly says that NOBODY falls from His supreme abode...

15.16
There are two classes of beings, the fallible and the infallible. In the material world every living entity is fallible, and in the spiritual world every living entity is called infallible.

8.15
After attaining Me, the great souls, who are yogis in devotion, never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection.

8.16
From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place. But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kunti, never takes birth again.

8.21
That which the Vedantists describe as unmanifest and infallible, that which is known as the supreme destination, that place from which, having attained it, one never returns-that is My supreme abode.

8.26
According to Vedic opinion, there are two ways of passing from this world-one in light and one in darkness. When one passes in light, he does not come back; but when one passes in darkness, he returns.

14.1
By becoming fixed in this knowledge, one can attain to the transcendental nature like My own. Thus established, one is not born at the time of creation or disturbed at the time of dissolution.

15.4
Thereafter, one must seek that place from which, having gone, one never returns, and there surrender to that Supreme Personality of Godhead from whom everything began and from whom everything has extended since time immemorial.

15.6
That supreme abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by fire or electricity. Those who reach it never return to this material world.

After attaining Me, the great souls, who are yogis in devotion, never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection.

No dude,Krsna says After attaining Me. So he means that anyone who has qualified himself by transcending birth and death will attain the fill blessings of immortality and will never indulge in that lower part of himself because now he understands the nature of nescience and transcendence side by side. Before the fall he may not have had such experience. The boy jiva has become man jiva. Confidential.

Like that,isnt it!

Try and understand -} http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/10-09/editorials5148.htm

ysvt.

A jiva who falls to material world is not returning to it. It is his first and only time as Nitya baddha. In that sense no one returns.

Ysvt.

Krsna does not say no one goes,he says no one returns. Like that!

Ysvt.

U see how its not so black and White now prabhu? This is the more mature understanding. That u should know!

Ysvt.

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite] So he means that anyone who has qualified himself by transcending birth and death will attain the fill blessings of immortality and will never indulge in that lower part of himself because now he understands the nature of nescience and transcendence side by side. Before the fall he may not have had such experience. [/quote]

Funny, but the verses quoted in that link speak about falling from Vaikuntha AFTER attaining it...

There is also Vaikuntha as a planet within this world, an abode of Vishnu on one of the peaks of Mount Sumeru. That abode is not eternal and it is possible to fall from there. That is how these verses are reconciled with siddhanta.

I guess you know the siddhanta and Prabhupada, Bhaktivinoda and BSST does not.... Of course there is a demigod named Vishnu too, and there is a siddhanta that is a material siddhanta (astonomical). That could explain something... in your siddhanta.

Its no joke...

Srila Prabhupada - '93Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti '92sadhya'92 kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya. Every living entity originally nitya-siddha ".

(Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4- Mayapur, February 18, 1977)

Srila Prabhupada '96'93The answer to your question about the marginal energy is that the jiva soul is always called marginal energy whether he is in the spiritual world or in the material world.

(December 2, 1968 reply to a question by Rayarama dasa)

.
http://therealexplanation.org/article/how_stand.html

Not so black and White now,eh?

Ysvt.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]I guess you know the siddhanta and Prabhupada, Bhaktivinoda and BSST does not...[/quote]

On this particular issue the siddhanta Prabhupada proposes sometimes (we fell from Vaikuntha) differs from those of previous acharyas. BSST and BVT never said we fell from Vaikuntha.

Ekadasi is followed on higher planets, not in the spiritual world, in which there is no (vai) anxiety (kuntha) or anything inauspicious that has to counteracted by fasting.

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]I guess you know the siddhanta and Prabhupada, Bhaktivinoda and BSST does not...[/quote]

On this particular issue.[/quote] It is true that there is no need for ekadasi on Vaikuntha, however the higher purpose of fasting is to please Hari. Acharyas can have different emphasis on one or another aspect of siddhanta, but to suggest that one acharya is wrong and another is right, is apasiddhanta.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite] Acharyas can have different emphasis on one or another aspect of siddhanta, but to suggest that one acharya is wrong and another is right, is apasiddhanta.[/quote]

IMO Prabhupadas introduction of Vaikuntha origin to his preaching was part of his strategy to promote a particular way of thinking about our reason for being in this world (envy of Krsna). It is a sake is a rope case.

> Other interpretations of: "I have abandoned my eternal Father simply to rely on such an unsubstantial reality!"
> 1. For a living entity in Brahman Lord Vishnu is still the eternal Father, master, or counterpart (pati).

This is just the reworded original. (In fact, Brahman (jyoti) is omnipresent so theres no jiva outside of it.)
Abandoning implies a former association.

> 2. This refers to choices we make in this life, or Bhaktivinoda made earlier in his life (just like sometimes he says: Bhaktivinoda weeps.

So this is your first and only different interpretation, a gauna vritti. I dont see how it could fit. In this life we didnt leave our nitya pati, were in samsara for pretty long time. If it can apply to BVT is hard to see. I prefer to stick to the mukhya vritti.

> Because in other places Bhaktivinoda clearly writes about living entities originally coming from Brahman and never as coming from Vaikuntha we must interpret this poetry in the above mentioned way.

Afaik, he writes about coming from tatastha.

BSST stated in Brahmana and Vaisnava that jiva left because of not being self-realized.

> IMO Prabhupadas introduction of Vaikuntha origin to his preaching was part of his strategy to promote a particular way of thinking about our reason for being in this world (envy of Krsna).

The envy of Krsna (isvaro ham aham bhogi) is very easily observed in every baddha jiva. All try to make this world into their eternal home and to imitate the rasas in relationships with other jivas. In vain.

Prabhupada did not differ a bit from the Thakur, and the accurate translations from Bhaktivinodes Bengali only highlight that transcendental reality.

"But in his functional, manifest nature, the jiva is also infinite, pure, and eternal. As long as the jiva is pure, for that long his nature manifests as perfectly pure. But when, by contact with maya, the jiva becomes impure, then a distortion of his proper functional nature occurs. He becomes impure, devoid of shelter, and pummeled by happiness and distress. As soon as the jiva has forgotten his servitude to Krsna, the paths of samsara confront him". - Jaiva Dharma, second chapter.

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite] Acharyas can have different emphasis on one or another aspect of siddhanta, but to suggest that one acharya is wrong and another is right, is apasiddhanta.[/quote]

IMO Prabhupadas introduction of Vaikuntha origin to his preaching was part of his strategy to promote a particular way of thinking about our reason for being in this world (envy of Krsna). It is a sake is a rope case.[/quote]

in ur humble opinion u say! So u are gambling in ur conclusion then? That is not so black and white,is it?

Ysvt.

"Even in his unalloyed spiritual state, the jiva is infinitesimal. He is liable to undergo change of condition . . . The worldly course makes its appearance simultaneously with the jivas loss of all recollection of the servitorship of Krsna". - Jaiva Dharma, Chapter One.

We were in one condition, but we underwent a change of condition. We do not at all recollect our original condition, but, when we become devotees--if we are not misled by false philosophy--we may indeed begin to recollect it in due course.

"In his true nature, the jiva is the devoted servant of Krsna. The jivas, who have gone astray against that nature of theirs--due to their seeking after their own pleasure--turned away from Krsna and, as such, became punishable". - Jaiva Dharma.

The jiva was originally a servant--as in a personal relationship with God in one of the five rasas (or, technically, you could say in one of the four higher rasas, but we get very esoteric at that point). He went astray from his originally relationship with God. More powerfully stated, he turned away, indicating an intentional act of responsibility and volition. He became punishable for this offensive act of rebellion. How could you become punishable for falling out of the impersonal brahmajyoti?

.

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite] That is not so black and white,is it?
[/quote]

Its very, very clear to me that we fell from Brahman and never had a direct contact with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is very black and white like that for me.

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]
"In his true nature, the jiva is the devoted servant of Krsna. The jivas, who have gone astray against that nature of theirs--due to their seeking after their own pleasure--turned away from Krsna and, as such, became punishable". - Jaiva Dharma.
[/quote]

Becoming punishable means becoming subject to material laws, coming under a different jurisdiction than before. Krsna never says that we are punished for the act of exercising our free will. You are mixing Christianity and Bhagavata philosophy.

"turned away from Krsna" comes after being turned _to_ Krsna. Iow, nitya pati parihari. And again the same:

krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga-vancha kare
nikata-stha maya tare japatiya dhare
(Prema-vivarta)

> Krsna never says that we are punished for the act of exercising our free will. You are mixing Christianity and Bhagavata philosophy.

Not for its exercising but for its misuse.

my edition (hope this is the same text):
"The eternal nature and duty of the individual soul is service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. If he forgets this duty, the individual souls comes under mayas control. Then the soul stays away from Lord Krsna. That staying away from Lord Krsna means that the soul enters the material world." (Jaiva Dharma 1, position in txt file: 11%)

Crystal-clear.

In the spiritual world, does the soul still have thoughts such as "Oh, if only I could be as beautiful/powerful/etc. as Krishna. ... How nice it would be for me! ... But no, I am only a servant, and I should do my duty to Krishna! ... How should I best arrange these flowers for a garland to present to Him ..." -?

If not, then how does the soul still have free will, and can _freely_ serve Krishna?

I would imagine that if something is done in free will, then there must also be some idea of not doing said thing.

Have you been in love? When ones in love, one simply doesnt think about anything else than pleasing ones partner, being ready for all sacrifices possible. Theres no place for thinking about love as duty whatsoever. Free will is still there though. Multiply that jiva-to-jiva love x-times to get Krsna prema....

As I mentioned, BSST says that jiva who left (note that I dont use the word fall since its a voluntary act and not an accident) was not self-realized. It makes perfect sense to me.

[youtube]nUiPTpijmf4[/youtube]

>But no, I am only a servant, and I should do my duty to Krishna!

Devotees always use the word Dasa or Dasi with their name. Dasa is translated as servant. But the english word servant does not describe dasa fully. The word servant carries the connotation of someone being forced or to work against his desire. Whereas dasa refers to a person who has surrendered on his own accord. In spiritual world things happen out of love, not because that a duty towards Krsna has to be performed.

Even while in the material world, when devotee reaches to the stage of Ruci, he or she need not to force their mind to perform devotional service. It happens spontaneously. This spontaneous love for Krsna is the embedded nature of soul which is clouded at the moment by Avidya or ignorance.

>if something is done in free will, then there must also be some idea of not doing said thing.

This idea of not serving krsna and trying to be as beautiful, as powerful as krsna is because of false ego which is another expression of Avidya. Once the false ego is dropped, this desire to compete with Krsna is no more there. But it does not kill the free will of jiva.

>But no, I am only a servant, and I should do my duty to Krishna!

Devotees always use the word Dasa or Dasi with their name. Dasa is translated as servant. But the english word servant does not describe dasa fully. The word servant carries the connotation of someone being forced or to work against his desire. Whereas dasa refers to a person who has surrendered on his own accord. In spiritual world things happen out of love, not because that a duty towards Krsna has to be performed.

Even while in the material world, when devotee reaches to the stage of Ruci, he or she need not to force their mind to perform devotional service. It happens spontaneously. This spontaneous love for Krsna is the embedded nature of soul which is clouded at the moment by Avidya or ignorance.

>if something is done in free will, then there must also be some idea of not doing said thing.

This idea of not serving krsna and trying to be as beautiful, as powerful as krsna is because of false ego which is another expression of Avidya. Once the false ego is dropped, this desire to compete with Krsna is no more there. But it does not kill the free will of jiva.

[quote][cite] dweller-in-peace:[/cite]>But no, I am only a servant, and I should do my duty to Krishna!

Devotees always use the word Dasa or Dasi with their name. Dasa is translated as servant[/quote] Actually primary meaning of Dasa is an enemy. Here you go your logic is faulty. It is the secondary meaning of the dAsa that is a servant or slave, because enemy is often captured and then made into slave or a servant.

do you mean krsna dasa means enemy of Krsna.

[quote][cite] dweller-in-peace:[/cite]do you mean krsna dasa means enemy of Krsna.[/quote] That would depend on the level of your realisation:-) [br][br]

There are a few key statement of the sastra.[br][br]

duc0u257 sa-bhu363 to harer eva nu257 nyasvaiva kadu257 cana [br][br]

and a Bengali key verse:[br][br]

jivera svarupa haya-krsnera nitya-dasa[br]
krsnera tatastha-sakti bhedabheda-prakasa [br][br]

In both cases it is not kRSNa dAsa, the very common mistake is to quote it as "Jivera svarupa haya nitya krsna dasa" I do not know why. But in Bengali dasa means just that - servant, a menial servant.

>Actually primary meaning of Dasa is an enemy. Here you go your logic is faulty. It is the secondary meaning of the dAsa that is a servant or slave, because enemy is often captured and then made into slave or a servant.

So, as per your logic, the conclusion becomes that Krsna is some kind of Hitler and his abode goloka vrindavana is some sort of concentration camp.

Actually dasya is a quality of Vaikuntha, "I am the servant (or a property) of God", in Goloka Vrindavana everything is based on selfless love, thus the predominant feature of Goloka is not that "I am Krsnas" but that "Krsna is mine" - mamata. (Not to be confused with atma-mamata or ahamta-mamata of this material world)

drdha-mamatatisayatmika pritih prema

When it is very intense, and when the lover becomes very possessive of the beloved, priti becomes prema.

ananya-mamata visnau
mamata prema-sangata
bhaktir ity ucyate bhisma-
prahladoddhava-naradaih

"When one develops an unflinching sense of ownership or possessiveness in relation to Lord Visnu, or, in other words, when one thinks Visnu and no one else to be the only object of love, such an awakening is called bhakti (devotion) by exalted persons like Bhisma, Prhalada, Uddhava, and Narada."

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]Otoh, I have an experience of persons who remain on the theoretical level and keep on asking, without much understanding. The simple fact somehow dont sink in or are easily forgotten.[/quote]

[br]It is my realization that this can happen because there are greater issues at work which continually get put aside, because they are tabooed, ridiculed by others, taken for granted, or the person just doesnt have the intelligence to deal with them productively.