Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

I never bring that up first, but if somebody asks you have to tell people the truth. I try to tell people to think for themselves and not to rely on blind following - it is blind following that led to most of these problems in the first place.

Did the whole institution lost your trust or just the perpetrators of these things?

Its the age old "The teachings are pure, the followers (some) are not".

I find devotees are very honest and transparent people. Compare it with the reaction to a rather plausable book: The Man Jesus Loved: Homoerotic Narratives From the New Testament. Or to the reaction of Muslims to the fact that Mohamed had married a seven years old girl and consummated that marriage in a couple of years, anytime you bring it up, Muslims really get annoyed. We are such a nice bunch of people, sadly we often from bad families. We do not even think that prostitution is bad, do we?

False righteousness. To be proud of ones own strict following of the rules and regulations and to indulge in pointing out the mistakes in anothers devotional service will harden the heart and obstruct ones own devotional service. To illustrate the danger of false righteousness, Prabhupada tells the story of a brahmana and a prostitute who lived across the street from each other. Each time the prostitute had a customer, the brahmana would add a stone to a pile that gradually became a wall, revealing to everyone her sinful activity. He became so absorbed in pointing out her sinfulness that at the time of death, he thought of the prostitute. The prostitute, however, mortified by this obvious symbol of her impious life, began to constantly pray to Krsna for forgiveness and ultimately went back to Godhead.

Every time I start talking about the ISKCON past, I get shut down, but I actually find it glorious, despite all the faults. If you look at ANY early religious movement you will see a lot of faults, we are angels in comparison. Kirtanananda is an angel if compared with Paul (Saul, extermination, murder etc). Dont get me started on Mohammad and his last years, murders, statutory rape, torture of children and slavery, demolition of temples, extermination, ... (are we allowed to be falsly righteous?).

When i was a young devotee my sankirtan leader was wisked of to new Zealand all of a sudden.He had extrapolated...cheated too much,as a result he left the non-devotees angry feeling ripped off after taking their pride and joy oil painting to their picture framer.Who preceeded to tell them they had paid afortune for a honka....hong kong oil worth ten bucks....its fraud call the cops.

When i approached my temple president he told me that kaliya******das had infact been sent to serve in New Zealand because he had not been expert enough and had failed to get the paintings framed up for them.He further proceeded to inform me that we are doing paraphenalia sankirtan because the australian authorities are intent on slaughtering cows and sheep as the national pastime.Because of the unfavourable environment ,book distribution was changed to give books out freely because the police saw us as a foreign cult.Which they attacked when ever they saw us distributing our literature.

Then he further explained it actually there is only the cheaters and the cheated within the material world.The demoniac non-devotees or karmies are not inclined to serve krishna at all.....they only want to surrender to maya....intoxication,meat eating ,illicit sex and gambling.So we have devised this paraphenalia sankirtan to cheat the demons of their hard earned laxmimoney and give it to krishna.

So after participating ...surrendering to my temple authorities and submissively serving.... krishna infact allowed me to perceive that what my Prabhu,my master had told me was actually the true reality.However over the years devotees found themselves the object of harassment and unfavourable attention from the police.We used to wear wigs ....because the non-devotees freaked at the sight of bald headed devotees......We drove huge v8 cars into the outback of Australia.It was an adventure however the demons sometimes through us out of town or put us in jail.Once i was put in jail because i had no receipt for a few mangoes. I spent the weekend in jail and then had to go to court several times ...much to the amusement of the supreme court in canberra and 1500 dollars later in travel expenses...

Self realisation means submission and action in krishna conciousness, i had my authorities whom i had to serve,and sometimes we were seen as criminals by the demons ....they hated us .Used violence against us.But now i personally see it as glorious because we paid for the maintenance of our temples.Now we have got good reputation so we are now accepted as genuine servants of god.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]I find devotees are very honest and transparent people.[/quote]

Thats great. I have not been so fortunate in my dealings with devotees.[br][br]

Back in 2005 several brahmanas (about 6, or 10 if one counts concealing info) in my community lied to me, including my guru. I was asking about why Bhakti-Tirtha and Radhanatha Swamis were glorifying someone whom the CPO had found to be a child molester, and the temple and community board members didnt like it, so they wanted to impeach me off the board. To do that, they held secret meetings and told me they didnt have time to meet when I was requesting meetings. I found out about it when they presented me with papers to sign, giving them the ability to impeach me if I did not act according to their view of "Vaisnava etiquette." Their idea was that the accused child molester was innocent because their guru said so, regardless of the fact that was found guilty by the CPO and it was confirmed upon his appeal. My asking them if anyone knew why he had gone against the CPO was taken as guru aparadha, and I was condemned by the community as a result. Two of the brahmanas, the other two guys on the community board with me, secretly called my guru and got him to call me and try to stop my stirring things up. Unfortunately he was not forthright about how he heard about what was going on, and perhaps didnt realize they would eventually admit to (after initially denying) having called him to manipulate me. Having so many brahmanas, especially my guru, behave so dishonestly and backstabbing me was so sickening that I couldnt chant for almost two years and fell into deep depression. Even after I recovered and made my way back into devotee association, being lied to by so many brahmana vaisnavas was so traumatizing that I lost interest in brahminical initiation, seeing as it meant nothing in terms of integrity to people. My guru had also used my training for brahmana initiation as leverage to get me to not write publicly about what was going on at Gita-nagari, which also disgusted me, especially since it was only two days later that I had learned that what he told me on the phone was a lie.

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]I find devotees are very honest and transparent people.

Thats great. I have not been so fortunate in my dealings with devotees.[br][br]

Back in 2005 several brahmanas (about 6, or 10 if one counts concealing info) in my community lied to me, including my guru.[/quote] [/quote] You are such an honest person, I admire your honesty. You are obviously the most honest person in Gita Nagari and very likely in the whole North America. Actually instead of worshiping some fallen gurus, they should ask you to be a ritvik, you are even more honest then Prabhupada! What a qualification to stop chanting because of a white lie! I think wishes of a dying person are definitely secondary to such a level of mundane satyam! You are definitely bigger. But then again maybe that guy just had a fling with a teenage girl... (and I was told by the person dealing with the apeal that it was statutory rape that would not stick in court). Maybe BTS was right to try to bring that fallen devotee back and that is what Prabhupada would have done... Let us think. But your honesty just contributes to my positive impression of devotees. Such a nice bunch of people and filled with compassion to others and to you and do not even hide the fact that a statutory rapist can become a devotee again and be allowed to have a kirtana.

I was brought up in a Catholic environment, then I looked into several Christian traditions, then into Buddhism. I have seen quite a bit going on in the name of religion and spirituality. Along with many other people there, I was reluctant to acknowledge those ugly things, although they did disturb me.

When I came into contact with the Hare Krishnas, I consciously decided to look into the disturbing aspects first, in order to prevent myself as much as possible from later surprises and disappointments, and from signing up for something I dont really know what it is. I didnt want to repeat old mistakes.

There comes a responsibility with such an outlook. I cant claim innoncence of ignorance anymore. I cant cry foul or play the victim. I cant say I was cheated.

Taking responsibility for ones spiritual life can be an overwhelming experience. It would be so much nicer if one could simply join an institution of organized religion, sit back, relax, and let the authorities of the institution take responsibility and control over ones spiritual life.
And sometimes, this indeed seems to work out fine. Other times, it does not.

I think everyone should take responsibility for ones spiritual life, and one should encourage others to take responsibility for theirs.

Yes being a irresponsible victim is probably the worst thing one can do. It goes hand in hand with perceptual rightiousness.

Of course there is a difference between asking everyone else that should take responsibility for ones spiritual life and actually taking responsibility for ones spiritual life. I find people actually EXPECT something done for them in EXCHANGE for being a member. As you say Baker "signing up for something I dont really know what it is" is probably what makes one a victim in first place. One of the requirement of accepting a guru is to live with him or observe him for at least a year. It is responsibility of a disciple to see if he matches your qualifications requirements, not GBC not your community not your family. If you yourself fail to make the right choice for yourself, it is your fault not the other sadhaka who is taking on the service of being a guru. In the same way, it is our obligation to make sure we know well the gap between the theory and reality in our society and we are convinced about how that relates to theory. If we do not know this gap and expect everything to be ideal and without a possible conflict, we are a kind of an impersonalists (righteous impersonalists).

> It would be so much nicer if one could simply join an institution of organized religion, sit back, relax, and let the authorities of the institution take responsibility and control over ones spiritual life.

This sit back and relax approach (found among formal members of various churches) is foreign to Vaisnavism. Bhaktiyoga is dynamic.

If I can put forward a sastric approach: We are warned time and again, over and over, in various ways and stories, in various puranas and other sastras that Kali-yuga is the time when religious hypocrisy is the standard and it is common for unqualiifed, devious or motivated people to wear religious dress and assume positions of responsibility. The primary quality of this age is that the mode of ignorance and passion empower such people and simultaneously dull the intelligence and discriminatory power of those who are taken advantage of. One point I always keep in mind is that Sastra has warned us in so many ways but sastra does not differentiate between Iskcon or non-Iskcon....this indicates to me that the approach to the dark side of Iskcon should be the same as the approach to the dark side of life in general...go about your service, keep your eyes open, avoid the dark side when you see it, and alert others if required.

When preaching, my approach is to be totally frank, open and honest about any issue. Think about it...what are your opitons when preaching and someone asks about a controversy or something they read on the internet or something they heard?
1. Quickly change the subject and avoid the topic altogether.
2. Deny it.
3. Fumble and mumble an awkward, uneducated response.
4. Know the issue and provide an honest answer.
I know which response impresses me. I dont think Krishna or Srila Prabhupada would want us to advertise the dark side but I also think that they would not want us to avoid the subject unnecessarily when it is appropriate and beneficial to discuss.

After reading these comments from ccd and veda....Pandu das i appreciate the particular modes and conditioning which is responsible for determining your responses.Though our personal opinions are worthy of consideration ....those of guru and temple authorities are generally far more important and valid from the perceived veiw of the non-devotee preaching environment.
Being personally absorbed you are possibly overly concerned about your particular vision and version of events. .That you failed to appreciate the mood of sadhu and guru is indeed indicative of immaturity in devotional understandings in our veiw.So krishna sent you a test and you failed .....No need to stop chanting and become a victim of the mode of ignorance thou.We need to carry on with our service in an attempt to please guru ,sadhu and krishna,even in trying circumstances.Initially krishna empowers his devotees to train us up.Their duty is to cut the huge conditioning off our puffed up polluted versions of what we consider is a devotee.Usually attack our false perceptions.....in other words make us humble .

[quote][cite]ccd:[/cite]You are such an honest person, I admire your honesty. You are obviously the most honest person in Gita Nagari and very likely in the whole North America. Actually instead of worshiping some fallen gurus, they should ask you to be a ritvik, you are even more honest then Prabhupada! [/quote]

I wonder if you would dare to use such provocative sarcasm if we were speaking in person.[br][br]

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]But then again maybe that guy just had a fling with a teenage girl... (and I was told by the person dealing with the apeal that it was statutory rape that would not stick in court). [/quote]

According to the Child Protection Office report, he was a 40-year old man at the time he was having sex with a 13-year-old child, and then he was going around telling everyone she was a slut. Statutory rape is rape. There is no such thing as sexual consent given by a child. And he was supposed to be a devotee. He had vows. Maybe you think its cool for devotees to break their vows seducing young girls, but my wife and I have four daughters, and we did not want this creep around. [br][br]

Furthermore, he was taking young children into the woods and building big fires with them, when it had not rained in three weeks. On the night of Bhakti-Tirthas disappearance he very nearly caused a forest fire; a little breeze and the whole area would have been toast. Even in the temple room I saw him touching a young lady in a sensual way while she was leading a bhajan. The temple president admitted to me that he was unable to enforce the curfew with him and the young ladies he was "protecting." Yet this was a man whom Radhanatha and Bhakti-Tirtha Swami saw fit to lavishly glorify while speaking from the vyasaasana. [br][br]

I did not disturb Bhakti-Tirthas wish to have him sing for him, though I did not understand how a so-called pure devotee-guru-sannyasi would want a man of his character doing that. I addressed the issue in private with the other two devotees on the community board, who were both his disciples. There are a lot of children of all ages living at Gita-nagari, and I was concerned for their safety. As a member of the community board and with my wife on the Child Protection Team, this was my duty. He was invited to our community without our even being notified that he had any child molestation issues; and it wasnt even like he was sorry -- he was entirely unrepentant, maliciously calling her filthy names. He lost his appeal with the CPO while he was in our community, but I wasnt able to get that info until I begged the CPO director. Fine for Bhakti-Tirtha Swami if he wanted to have a child molester sing for him, but after he passed away we still had to deal with the guy, and he was talking about staying. What decent father could allow that?[br][br]
Yet, because Bhakti-Tirtha and Radhanatha were friends with him, he could do no wrong in the eyes of their disciples; and so when I asked finally asked in public if anyone knew what Bhakti-Tirtha thought about the child protection issue, they drove me out of the community. So many brahmanas, practically the whole temple and community boards, lied to me to keep their meetings secret while they drew up papers they could use to impeach me. I have no idea what they told Bhaktimarga, but somehow they got him to betray my sacred trust and try to manipulate me to their will, and they put him in a position where he lied to me to protect their conspiracy. Maybe thats no big deal to you, ISKCON business as usual, since you obviously have accepted rubber-stamped, materially conditioned gurus; but I expect my guru to be Gods representative, not a back-stabbing liar. [br][br]
[quote][cite]Srila Prabhupada:[/cite]
Similarly, acceptance of spiritual master means representative of God. Of course, he, he must be representative of God. If unfortunately I accept a bogus man as representative of..., that is my misfortune.[br]
Bhagavad-gita 2.13 -- Hyderabad, November 19, 1972[quote]

Deena, I appreciate your thoughtful response. For me this is a serious conflict, and I dont feel comfortable sending anyone to ISKCON now that I know what its like. I want to preach, to give them Srila Prabhupadas books, but if theyre going to come looking for a spiritual community, I would feel responsible if I did not inform them of how so many devotees have been hurt. Im glad to be able to talk about it because its really stifling my ability to distribute Srila Prabhupadas books, which is what I love to do more than anything.

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite]For me this is a serious conflict, and I dont feel comfortable sending anyone to ISKCON now that I know what its like. I want to preach, to give them Srila Prabhupadas books, but if theyre going to come looking for a spiritual community, I would feel responsible if I did not inform them of how so many devotees have been hurt. Im glad to be able to talk about it because its really stifling my ability to distribute Srila Prabhupadas books, which is what I love to do more than anything.[/quote]

[br]Perhaps those people youd send to ISKCON wouldnt be as disturbed as you, perhaps they would have taken it all differently, perhaps they wouldnt be so put off ...

[br]Before I went to a nama-hatta meeting for the first time, I have spoken with a brahmacari I have met in the street in harinam. I have asked him what the meetings look like what the requirements are for going there. In this conversation, he said:
[br]"And the devotees there are on different levels."

[br]This has turned out to be a very important sentence for me. When I came to the nama-hatta, I was very disappointed and very hurt over the things I have seen there. But I remembered that sentence - "And the devotees there are on different levels" - and it took the edge of it all a bit.

[br]In hindsight, I think what the brahmacari said was very provident. And also that I asked about the requirements for going there (he said I should have a "burning desire to come there"). I think it might be good that when talking to a new person, to steer the conversation in the direction of these points.

Statutory rape is an interesting concept....a friend went to court for rape, when his lawyer proved the young lady enjoyed the experience the judge dismissed the case from court.This girl was thirteen years...and he was 40 years looks serious to me also..i agree its unusual ...but where were the devotee girls parents during all this?Was she a devotee?Not enough information in my opinion because young girls are indeed fully mature physically these days....it is the kali yuga.Western girls are very...very forward.Where were the father and mother?

Was the girl willing?If she was what is the problem?My daughter will hopefully be married by thirteen years ...She recently asked me to find her a husband. She is infact eleven years....but definitely a young woman already.So i am afraid i do not agree with you if the young lady is like my beautiful daughter who will be in her prime in two years.

Your vision of Iskcon is infact very distorted,i know these devotees very well.Radhanatha swami is an empowered preacher.Bhakti tirtha maharaja was an incredibly pure vaisnava.....who was able to preach to nelson mandella personally.I listen to his lectures regularly...he had mohammed ali as a personal freind.His purity was so obvious world leaders accepted him regularly into their courts.Your attitude is wrong prabhu.Sadly your country is so degraded....Everywhere your society is so degraded....and you dont want to send people to gita nagari temple.Your streets are home to all manner of drugs,guns,prostitutes , delingquents and crack animals.But dont send them to a place where people are trying to give these things up?Where srila Prabhupada personally resides....within his books and his murti form.
Your country is were your own soldiers shoot each other to death....like what happened today.Everyone there appears insane to us.....12 murdered and thirty two shot and injured by their comrade in arms.But dont take them to the devotional hospital to get well.You are sadly in need of help Prabhu yourself.By the way i am a very staunch individual and in my culture we live to die.....properly with dignity and honest motives ......no bullshit. I would definitely tell you this in person because i think we could be friends......thats what friends do. haribol Pandu das.

sri_govinda_das> Was the girl willing?If she was what is the problem?

Baker> "And the devotees there are on different levels."

Baker, which level is this?

Very good, Sri Govinda Prabhu. This is not so uncommon attitude - ISKCON is imperfect, lets not invite people in. The idea behind is either perfection or nothing. This black-and-white vision is the cause of many problems.
Its a variation of the fallacious cut-the-hand-to-get-rid-of-the-boil approach. Gimme a perfect ISKCON or nothing.

If one doesnt want remain on a theoretical level of bhakti, i.e. without vaisnava sanga (despite not always uttama and sometimes not even enough madhyama adhikaris are available), its not a solution.

If theres one child molester in a community and the community cant handle him (too bad), how about living in a city full of child molesters?
But wait, he pretends to be a devotee...
Sure, every molester pretends to be a nice guy. He can be your neighbor, your boss, etc.

ISKCON certainly has many problems and in comparison with Vaikuntha its very lacking. But in comparison with the material world its like Vaikuntha. The angle of vision makes all the difference. Half-empty or half-full?

People die even in the best hospitals.

sri_govinda_das: i know these devotees very well

You knew Bhavananda also very well. But later it was proved to be otherwise.

>Bhakti tirtha maharaja was an incredibly pure vaisnava.....who was able to preach to nelson mandella personally, he had mohammed ali as a personal freind

Mohammed ali has many personal friends, how does it make them pure vaisnavas. It will be better not to open this Pandoras box of purity.

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite]According to the Child Protection Office report, he was a 40-year old man at the time he was having sex with a 13-year-old child, and then he was going around telling everyone she was a slut. Statutory rape is rape. There is no such thing as sexual consent given by a child. And he was supposed to be a devotee. He had vows. Maybe you think its cool for devotees to break their vows seducing young girls, but my wife and I have four daughters, and we did not want this creep around. [/quote]

If it was my daughter, the guy would likely get a bullet in his groin...
It is absolutely amazing to me that devotees are willing to shield such criminals...

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]Was the girl willing?If she was what is the problem?My daughter will hopefully be married by thirteen years ...She recently asked me to find her a husband. She is infact eleven years....but definitely a young woman already.So i am afraid i do not agree with you if the young lady is like my beautiful daughter who will be in her prime in two years.[/quote]

This is as bogus as it gets... Did this criminal marry that girl prior to raping her??? A rape is an attack on your child, which needs to be responded with properly. We are not talking about pre-arranged, pre-adolescent marriage... we are talking about sexual predators abusing children in our community. No wonder people see us as a dangerous cult...

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]Statutory rape is an interesting concept....[/quote]

[br]Heres the thing: Should devotees adhere to worldly laws as given by the state, or should they adhere to Vedic law? Which law should prevail, or at least be aspired to?
[br]If the devotees really want a Vedic society, its clear ...[br]

[quote]but where were the devotee girls parents during all this?Was she a devotee?Not enough information in my opinion /.../ Where were the father and mother?[/quote]

[br]Good point about parenting.

[br]Surely in the Vedic tradition, there must be some instructions for parents on how to raise their children, and for how young women should behave. If people were under the three modes of material nature 5000 years ago, surely back then, they also had to have some such instruction as "Stay away from people who touch you inappropriately" or "Dont flirt with men we have not approved of."

[quote][cite] dweller-in-peace:[/cite]sri_govinda_das> Was the girl willing?If she was what is the problem?

Baker> "And the devotees there are on different levels."

Baker, which level is this?[/quote]

[br]I dont know, me is no expert on levels ...

[br]My introduction to Krishna consciousness was from books and philosophical discussion. I thought "different levels of devotees" was about whether they are initiated or not, how many rounds they chant, and how high their rank is in the community; but that they all, from lowest to highest level, perfectly adhere to the four regulative principles, are all perfectly modest and frugal and compassionate ... I thought all devotees, whatever level they are on, are all free from the gross material defilements that the "run-of-the-mill people" struggle with, and that devotees only have fancy and highly intricate defilements ...
Heh.

According to Manu-smriti and the Arthasastra, an attack on the child gives the father the right to administer justice to the attacker. Just as one who attempts to rape your wife can be killed, the one who attempts to rape your child can be killed as well.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]This is not so uncommon attitude - ISKCON is imperfect, lets not invite people in. The idea behind is either perfection or nothing. This black-and-white vision is the cause of many problems.[/quote]

[br]I agree. This black-and-white attitude also implies the message that ISKCON doesnt really have anything of worth to offer, and that the troubles it faces are more important and more potent than whatever good one may receive from the institution or the devotees. Which, I think, makes for the sixth offense against the holy name.[br]

[quote][br]If one doesnt want remain on a theoretical level of bhakti, i.e. without vaisnava sanga (despite not always uttama and sometimes not even enough madhyama adhikaris are available), its not a solution.[/quote]

[br]I suppose one thing that these internal troubles of the devotee community sharply bring to light is the necessity of putting in effort in developing ones own spiritual practice. Those troubles can serve as a painful reminder that if one would be more diligent, more proactive, have more faith in Krishna, chanted better rounds, improved ones scriptural knowledge, and so on, then one could probably be able to come up with more effective solutions to practical problems, or at least have a more productive attitude, but that instead one remained complacent - and look how things have gone wrong ...

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]Statutory rape is an interesting concept....a friend went to court for rape, when his lawyer proved the young lady enjoyed the experience the judge dismissed the case from court.[/quote]

I dont know what country youre in, but that seems pretty twisted to me. Suppose a man tells a girl he loves her and wants to marry her, lies, and so she enjoys the encounter(s), but then he dumps her. Thats why statutory rape laws exist, because children are not mature enough to make good decisions when it comes to sex. That is why childrens "consent" to sex is legally meaningless.

[Quote]This girl was thirteen years...and he was 40 years looks serious to me also..i agree its unusual ...but where were the devotee girls parents during all this?[/quote]

As Ive heard/read, her parents were divorced, and her father wasnt around. Her mother was probably at work. One devotee attorney who commented on the file described this as a classic sexual predator scenario. She explained that he used to pick her up from middle school and take her to do it. Some sort of father-figure/lover combo; creepy as can be.

[Quote]Was she a devotee?[Quote] She had a devotee name from birth and went to the temple, so Id say yes. Beyond that I dont know the extent of her bhakti. This experience, plus the glorification of her alleged rapist by Iskcon gurus, probably hasnt helped.

[quote][cite] Baker:[/cite][quote][cite] dweller-in-peace:[/cite]sri_govinda_das> Was the girl willing?If she was what is the problem?

Baker> "And the devotees there are on different levels."

Baker, which level is this?[/quote]

[br]I dont know, me is no expert on levels ...

[br]My introduction to Krishna consciousness was from books and philosophical discussion. I thought "different levels of devotees" was about whether they are initiated or not, how many rounds they chant, and how high their rank is in the community; but that they all, from lowest to highest level, perfectly adhere to the four regulative principles, are all perfectly modest and frugal and compassionate ... I thought all devotees, whatever level they are on, are all free from the gross material defilements that the "run-of-the-mill people" struggle with, and that devotees only have fancy and highly intricate defilements ...
Heh.[/quote]

Wow, that describes my assumptions exactly, based on what Id learned from Srila Prabhupadas books. Its what this thread is about, because I had such a rude awakening when I tried getting into devotee society.[Br][br]
Every adult knows karmi society can be rough, everyone wants to take advantage, etc. But coming to devotee society, its easy to let ones guard down. In fact, trusting devotees is a big part of the preaching, the philosophy. Parents put their kids in far away gurukulas based on such trust...

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite]Yet this was a man whom Radhanatha and Bhakti-Tirtha Swami saw fit to lavishly glorify while speaking from the vyasaasana.[/quote]

[br]I can think of a way to make good sense of this: Perhaps they were appealing to his higher sense of morality this way, and also to the higher morality of the others present.[br]

[br][b]One devotee has shown us how to act when another devotee is criticized in our presence. Whenever anybody comes to him criticizing a particular devotee, he will immediately start glorifying that particular devotees good qualities. This would not only silence the criticizing devotee but even he would end up appreciating that devotee. Only one in a superior position can criticize another devotee. Like a spiritual master criticizing his disciple. This is for the disciples benefit. A relationship develops by starting with appreciation.
http://connect.krishna.com/node/7552

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite]Wow, that describes my assumptions exactly, based on what Id learned from Srila Prabhupadas books. Its what this thread is about, because I had such a rude awakening when I tried getting into devotee society.[Br][br]
Every adult knows karmi society can be rough, everyone wants to take advantage, etc. But coming to devotee society, its easy to let ones guard down. In fact, trusting devotees is a big part of the preaching, the philosophy. Parents put their kids in far away gurukulas based on such trust...[/quote]

[br]Sure. I suppose it is also quite possible to "get in over ones head" very quickly ...

[br]But you know ... if you fall, get up, dust yourself off, and move on, learning from your mistakes.

Within our vedic society -devotee society it is the normal procedure that young girls are to be given to a older devotee man .However he is meant to take responsibility for her krishna conciousness.Once he accepts the girl as he did here .They get married.She has little parent support so it is natural sjhe attempt to take shelter of an older devotee.

Within my experience individual grihasta devotees like yourself Bhakta Paul...pandu das would normally give shelter to her around the temple ...however i am not within your environment so it is unfair to assume things.But you seem intent of following the non-devotee demoniac procedures because that is where your heart is Bhakta Paul.You have more faith in the demons....birds of a feather flock together naturally.

By definition ISKCON society is a hospital for the impure...where the ill can come to become cured one day in the future from the material disease....How naieve of us to be surprised when we see others are still ill,still displaying symptoms of sickness.However within vaisnava circles ,normally our culture is for the senior vaisnavas to ascertain what is best for our devotees...not for a Bhakta to assume he has the authority.

>sri_govinda_das: Within our vedic society -devotee society it is the normal procedure that young girls are to be given to a older devotee man .

Sri Govinda Prabhu, you are totally wrong here and misleading. Nowhere in ISKCON, 13 years old girls are married to 40 years old men, there is no such rule in ISKCON that its members can marry 13 years old girls. This is your concoction. There were few people who committed mistakes but ISKCON in general is not a society of paedophiles. Your statement means that all ISKCON devotees are perverts and child rapists.

Sorry prabhu or mataji,Dweller in peace,but you happen to totally misunderstand vedic culture.Did our founder -Archarya,SRILA ac Bhaktivedanta marry a young girl of similar age?Yes ...so why did he do such a cultured thing because it is indeed the proper thing for vedic followers to do.Indeed it keeps the lusty lower nature of both under some control usually .

Vedic culture is not a perverted culture...because krishna ordained and determined the marriage of men and women who are encouraged to both ideally be virgins..Hence marriages will last because the inherant psycology of the woman is she always remembers her first ...as a consequence she is inclined to follow the husband till the day both leave this world.Which was the original intention of sri krishna.

>Did our founder -Archarya,SRILA ac Bhaktivedanta marry a young girl of similar age?

I do not know how old was Srila Prabhupada and how old was his wife when they got married. I am interested to know. Kindly provide the details.

Sorry Dweller in ignorance.....sorry in peace obviously you are a young devotee.But we have several young devotee children who are already betrothed,and within iskcon this was the natural progression especially as you accept theindian vedic culture more and more as you become purified....We accept so many vedic nonsense ....so why dont you accept the real culture!Or due you want to follow the american insidious consumer Burger -king perversion,we have been brain washed to accept to facilitate our lust desires.

Fundamental Human Rights in ISKCON (from ISKCON Communications Journal)
http://www.iskcon.com/icj/6_2/62radha.html

Article 12

1. Every member of ISKCON who is of full legal age, without any limitation due to race, national or social origin, language, birth status, gender or religion, shall have the right to marry and to found a family.

Both male and female members of ISKCON are entitled to equal rights under ISKCON and secular law as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution. However, this article does not itself create any right to dissolve a marriage.
2. Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.

Will you now please stop this nonsense of getting married to 13 year old girls?

Sorry Dweller in ignorance.....sorry in peace obviously you are a young devotee.But we have several young devotee children who are already betrothed,and within iskcon this was the natural progression especially as you accept theindian vedic culture more and more as you become purified....We accept so many vedic nonsense ....so why dont you accept the real culture!Or due you want to follow the american insidious consumer Burger -king perversion,we have been brain washed to accept to facilitate our lust desires.Where by 40 million unborn americans babies have been slaughtered,since 1975....according to my catholic priest figures...this should be called Dead Baby brain-dead parentssyndrome or maybe just cheap women -lousy wives syndrome....sorry my imagination is so inept but i was also a victim of Hollywoods bright lights.

>Sorry Dweller in ignorance.....sorry in peace obviously you are a young devotee.

I am very happy to be a young, ignorant devotee rather than becoming a senior devotee and getting married to 13 years old girl.

What your iskcon rules are is an attempt to give guidance when our western families which are generally nuclear in nature have no existing culture left.Where grand parents are not devotees.Where they are devoid of natural spiritual culture where you fail to follow family leaders,temple presidents and in some cases determine what you want first! before bowing to the mood and desire of your guru!....Our guru took a 12 -13 year old wife because his father was a pure devotee.....Srila Prabhupada protested that he found her not so attractive.Which his farther said was indeed a positive circumstance....but that he should follow his opinion and accept such a cultured arrangement.Because he would infact benefit long term as aresult naturally.Hence he bowed to the superior intelligence ordained by krishnas culture not hollywood garbage.

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]Within our vedic society -devotee society it is the normal procedure that young girls are to be given to a older devotee man .[/quote]

That is not at all true. Maybe in India parents are desperate enough to give away their daughter to a man 3 times her age, but that is a recipe for a disaster, especially in the West. Think about it for a second... a guy turns 55 and gets an 18 year old wife. 15 years later he is 70 and wife is 33. That is a social disaster. Even in Vedic times men were married at 20 and girls at 15 (puberty age). Where on earth you dig out such nonsense that a 30 year age difference between husband and wife was normal in Vedic society?

Generally within vedic astrology the mentality illustrated concerning marriages is that men develop much later than women ,so far as their fathering nurturing a family and all it entails.....financial responsibility capacities are concerned.Hence ideally there should be 5-8 years difference in the ages.The man being the older.So that eventually the slower maturing man will eventually arrive at a similar mentality which the female has already well assimilated previously.Hence they work and share from a common platform to continue the vfamily duties expertly in tune together....understanding husband is indeed the guru also......This is the proper platform ,not the poor pathetic position women find themselves in presently......kill their baby,when they fail with their partners,or beg from the government and in the future become a whore for other men on the prowl.

This is only extreme because the young women appears to not have a full family support therefore she is unprotected.Were there a farther ...no problem he would protect her from such a predicament .However it appears she voluntarily accepted the arrangment.

"sri_govinda_das: Generally within vedic astrology the mentality illustrated concerning marriages is that men develop much later than women ,so far as their fathering nurturing a family and all it entails.....financial responsibility capacities are concerned.Hence ideally there should be 5-8 years difference in the ages.The man being the older.So that eventually the slower maturing man will eventually arrive at a similar mentality which the female has already well assimilated previously.Hence they work and share from a common platform to continue the vfamily duties expertly in tune together....understanding husband is indeed the guru also......This is the proper platform ,not the poor pathetic position women find themselves in presently......kill their baby,when they fail with their partners,or beg from the government and in the future become a whore for other men on the prowl."

I am glad that now you are thinking.

Obviously i would have severe doubts about such a gap in age, and wether such a marriage would indeed succeed.However she has very little shelter.

> Should devotees adhere to worldly laws as given by the state, or should they adhere to Vedic law? Which law should prevail, or at least be aspired to? If the devotees really want a Vedic society, its clear ...

Srila Prabhupada knew that Vedic society is in many ways opposite to current state laws and therefore to enable his mission to continue he wanted devotees to follow state laws.

> Surely in the Vedic tradition, there must be some instructions for parents on how to raise their children, and for how young women should behave.

Yes, such examples are found all over smriti, esp. dharmasastra, texts.

> My introduction to Krishna consciousness was from books and philosophical discussion. I thought "different levels of devotees" was about whether they are initiated or not, how many rounds they chant, and how high their rank is in the community; but that they all, from lowest to highest level, perfectly adhere to the four regulative principles, are all perfectly modest and frugal and compassionate ... I thought all devotees, whatever level they are on, are all free from the gross material defilements that the "run-of-the-mill people" struggle with, and that devotees only have fancy and highly intricate defilements ... Heh.

Yes, the books describe the ideal to aim at. An error is to assume that the ideal was already achieved and ISKCON is a society of uttama adhikaris only. This error is quite usual in case of other groups, churches, etc. Somehow many people commit it, most probably because their wishes for perfection are stronger than reality checks.

> I suppose one thing that these internal troubles of the devotee community sharply bring to light is the necessity of putting in effort in developing ones own spiritual practice. Those troubles can serve as a painful reminder that if one would be more diligent, more proactive, have more faith in Krishna, chanted better rounds, improved ones scriptural knowledge, and so on, then one could probably be able to come up with more effective solutions to practical problems, or at least have a more productive attitude, but that instead one remained complacent - and look how things have gone wrong ...

The problem is that the criminal needs to apply these measures but he doesnt. When brahmana solutions like compassion, preaching, etc. dont work, ksatriya solutions need to be applied to protect others.

> I can think of a way to make good sense of this: Perhaps they were appealing to his higher sense of morality this way, and also to the higher morality of the others present.

This is quite possible. Such appeal may change the heart of some criminals. I remember a related story from the life of Zen master Bankei.

When Zen master Bankei held meditation weeks, students from all parts of Japan came to attend them. During one of these meetings was a disciple caught when stealing. The case was present to Bankei who was asked to remove the offender from the group. Bankei ignored the whole event. Later the disciple was caught stealing again and again Bankei ignored the matter. This angered the other disciples so theyve written a request to Bankei demanding the immediate exclusion of the thief, otherwise everyone would leave the monastery. When Bankei read it, he called everyone to assemble. "Youre clever men," he told them. "You know what is right and what is wrong. If you want you can go and study somewhere else, but this poor brother cant distinguish between right and wrong. Wholl teach it to him if not I? Ill keep him here, even if all of you leave." When the thief heard those words, his eyes welled up with tears and all desire for stealing left him.

As the Gospel says: "The healthy ones dont need a doctor, the sick ones do."

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]Yes, the books describe the ideal to aim at. An error is to assume that the ideal was already achieved and ISKCON is a society of uttama adhikaris only. This error is quite usual in case of other groups, churches, etc. Somehow many people commit it, most probably because their wishes for perfection are stronger than reality checks.[/quote]

[br]Surely the lack of experience with devotees and with the particular spiritual practice play a part, as well as whatever preconceived notions one brings with oneself (especially if one already has some mileage in other religions). And then the confusion as one tries to make sense of the actual experience with the devotees while matching it with ones expectations and preconceived notions.[br]

[br]For example, I first thought that everyone at the nama-hatta would sit in full lotus or kneel. Instead, they sat in regular Western chairs. I then wrecked my mind over it, thinking whether this means that they are so advanced that they are beyond such things as "proper posture", or whether they are just complacent, or whether they are deliberately modifying their behavior since a nama-hatta is after all an outreach program so they dont want to look to "extreme" in order to avoid putting off newcomers, or whether ...[br]
[br]And this is only a mild example, I have quite severe ones regarding the philosophy and practice and how they are talked about.[br]

[br][quote]The problem is that the criminal needs to apply these measures but he doesnt. When brahmana solutions like compassion, preaching, etc. dont work, ksatriya solutions need to be applied to protect others.[/quote]

[br]Sure.
[br]My point is that when such criminal things happen, one also ought to look into whether oneself has done something that invited the criminal or made it easier for them.
[br]For example, it is sometimes said that in many cases of rape, it was the woman who initated the physical violence (which then escalated into a fight and ended in rape).
[br]Many people, especially victims, do not like to hear about such things.[br]

[br]Hence my mention of parenting. Young people should be prepared by their parents to act in such ways as to not unnecessarily endanger themselves.
[br]I am finding this resource helpful: http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/escape.html . Is there a similar Vaishnava resource?[br]

[br][quote]I remember a related story from the life of Zen master Bankei.[/quote]

[br]:)

> For example, it is sometimes said that in many cases of rape, it was the woman who initated the physical violence (which then escalated into a fight and ended in rape).
Many people, especially victims, do not like to hear about such things.

Yes. And the feminist groups get very irritated when this is brought up. Theyre programmed to see all women as angels and all men as brutes.

> Hence my mention of parenting. Young people should be prepared by their parents to act in such ways as to not unnecessarily endanger themselves.
I am finding this resource helpful: http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/escape.html . Is there a similar Vaishnava resource?

Im not aware of it. Self-defense is self-defense.
Some time ago one lady in Vrindavan wanted to start a self-defense course for ladies. Ive given her some hints from my limited MA experience (aikido) and referred her to two of my devotee friends with more experience. No idea if anything actually happened.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]Yes, the books describe the ideal to aim at. An error is to assume that the ideal was already achieved and ISKCON is a society of uttama adhikaris only. This error is quite usual in case of other groups, churches, etc. Somehow many people commit it, most probably because their wishes for perfection are stronger than reality checks.
[/quote][br]

[br]But the books themselves also suggest an openness and willingness to trust, for example:[br]

[br][quote]7/ Dont be afraid to make personal, honest applications. In a group of sincere, Krsna conscious persons you can be honest and vulnerable without getting hurt.[br]

[br]From the Introduction to The Bhagavad-gita study guide by B.V. Madhava Swami http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/library/index.htm#3[/quote]

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]>I am finding this resource helpful: http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/escape.html . Is there a similar Vaishnava resource?

Im not aware of it. Self-defense is self-defense.
Some time ago one lady in Vrindavan wanted to start a self-defense course for ladies. Ive given her some hints from my limited MA experience (aikido) and referred her to two of my devotee friends with more experience. No idea if anything actually happened.[/quote]

[br]Actually, physical self-defense wasnt my point. On the site I mentioned, they focus a lot on how to recognize early signs of potential crime, how to de-escalate an aggressive situation, how defending ones pride and the right to be right is not a good idea when it comes to some people and so on.[br]

[br]But it is all written from a Western perspective, and some of the things said there do or may conflict with Vedic ethics and reasoning - hence my question whether there are Vaishnava resources on the topic.[br]

> On the site I mentioned, they focus a lot on how to recognize early signs of potential crime, how to de-escalate an aggressive situation, how defending ones pride and the right to be right is not a good idea when it comes to some people and so on.

These things are common sense and experience. The site would need evaluation from Vedic pov to say what exactly conflicts with Vedic ethics. Vaisnava with some years of KC practice should be able to see it for himself, imho.

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite][quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite]According to the Child Protection Office report, he was a 40-year old man at the time he was having sex with a 13-year-old child, and then he was going around telling everyone she was a slut. Statutory rape is rape. There is no such thing as sexual consent given by a child. And he was supposed to be a devotee. He had vows. Maybe you think its cool for devotees to break their vows seducing young girls, but my wife and I have four daughters, and we did not want this creep around. [/quote]

If it was my daughter, the guy would likely get a bullet in his groin...
It is absolutely amazing to me that devotees are willing to shield such criminals...[/quote]

Its called being compassionate and merciful.

Dont also forget that karma is also involved. People get everything they deserve, good and bad.

How do devotees deal with the dark side of ISKCON when preaching?

Assume you mean to new people. How do we deal with the dark side of ourselves? We know it is there, but we dont expose it. We have to tolerate it, be humble, pray for help and keep moving forward. Keep focus on Srila Prabhupadas Lotus Feet and Hare Krishna philosophy, prasadam, sri archa vigraha worship and harinam. It is very important we deal constructively with the dark side so we can be positive influence on others when preaching.

[quote][cite] Kyros:[/cite]
Dont also forget that karma is also involved. People get everything they deserve, good and bad.[/quote]

Including a bullet in the groin for raping a child.

Actually it is not strictly karma.....krishna will punish devotees personally .That is the meaning of initiation.....so let us leave it up to him personally.