Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

..no it is not.Why do you think he has a hidden agenda ? what do you think it is ?

Who is a Vaisnava?

Vrindavan istagosthi addressing gopi bhava and narayanna maharaja....A sad attempt to label senior vaisnavas as sahajas by neophyte devotees on sun sampradaya .....because they went for siksa guidance but later terminated this ....because of how it was disturbing godbrothers who are unevolved and unable to appreciate their own initiating guru godbrothers....unfortunately. .

This is one example but there are many more ,which i will paste ....soon to show trafficing in aparadhas is good for attacking those who you despise....As srila Prabhupada said give a dog a bad name ....and then hang it The disgraceful attacks on hridyananda swami......

TKG was banned by his GBC godbrothers not by Sampradaya Sun.

You mean when he decided that the punjas of narayanna maharajas team were attempting to steal iskcon fiji property like those sahaja ritviks of Bangalore temple,and he stopped it.Hence they tried to ban him....from his disciples in fiji

TKG and other senior leaders were banned from ISKCON by GBC because they were visiting Narayana Maharaja to get instructions on Raganuga Bhakti. Why do you blame Sampradaya Sun for it? They have just reported the incident.

Sorry dweller in peace ,where is the gbc resolution.....

Please give me the details of gbc resolution,what month and meeting i would love to read more please......thank you....Prabhu.

Hello is dweller in peace still there....about the gbc resolution could you please give us the exact details.....i would be very interested Prabhu.

>Sorry dweller in peace ,where is the gbc resolution...
>Please give me the details of gbc resolution,what month and meeting i would love to read more please......thank you....Prabhu.
>Hello is dweller in peace still there....about the gbc resolution could you please give us the exact details.....i would be very interested Prabhu.

1992-95:

TKGs understanding of guru-ship takes a further radical twist as he begins preaching that Srila Prabhupada had not given the highest understanding and that everyone should take guidance from the rasika guru Narayana Maharaja, As a result of his sustained deviancy the GBC suspended TKG for the second time.
(This is from IRM website)

You can google and look yourself for 1992 to 1995 resolutions because that is the time when he was suspended. I cant spend any more time on this, because this topic really doesnt interest me. Good luck with your research.

Hari bol.

1. We will not regularly visit HH Narayana Maharaja for instruction or siksa, nor engage in any systematic study under him. 2. Will not publicly display any affection for Narayana Maharaja over and above normal Vaisnava etiquette. Private interaction be conducted in order to maintain normal friendly relationships. 4. We will not display or disseminate any tapes or transcripts of HH Narayana Maharaja."

This was the actual gentlemans agreement ,accepted by giriraja swami,dhanudhara swami,tamala krishna goswami and bhurijana das....amongst their godbrothers.....who were concerned.

But dweller in peace your source is an apa- sampradaya group also......these people are not part of iskcon.....they are intent on destroying Prabhupadas movement....That is what that sight is hence you are also intent on this ritvik nonsense also .....And destroying his society.

You are also favourable to destroying the reputation of all sincere devotees like HRDAYANANDA DAS GOSWAMI...AND TAMALA KRISHNA GOSWAMI....LIKE SUN SAMPRADAYA.COM

>Is sun sampradaya trafficking in vaisnava aparadha?

They are, so what? There are a few dozen sites that do exactly the same, honesty is good but Prabhupada was against freedom of speech. So it depends on what you want in your life and whom you want to follow. It is not a good site if you want to progress in your chanting and hearing... but it is great for those who think bhakti yoga is a mundane excise in knowledge and religiosity, truthfulness and debate. But even then, they are publishing lies all the time. Would never recommend it as a good reading to friends.

> You can google and look yourself for 1992 to 1995 resolutions because that is the time when he was suspended. I cant spend any more time on this, because this topic really doesnt interest me. Good luck with your research.

Nothing like that there. In 1992 TKG resigned from Communications Int. Board of Directors but continued as GBC in the following years to come. Another ritvik fabrication.

The topic interests you when you post lies but stops to interest you when asked for evidence? Hmm, how to call this attitude...?

Actually TKG was not suspended in 1995 either. Harivilas and Suhotra were getting on his case, but he remained on GBC that year. He was fried that ISKCON broke up with Narayana Maharaja. Actually that was a point of contention in 1995, I personally think it would have been better if a compromise ground was found at the time in communication with NM. But hey they did not ask me for my opinion:-)

Veda: Nothing like that there. In 1992 TKG resigned from Communications Int. Board of Directors but continued as GBC in the following years to come. Another ritvik fabrication.

Were you in ISKCON in those years?

> Were you in ISKCON in those years?

How is it related to the topic at hand? This is 2nd red herring from you.

Youve referred to GBC resolutions and Ive found nothing related to the suspension of TKG there. Obviously you didnt check for yourself, preferring blind copypasting from ritvik sites.

>blind copypasting from ritvik sites.

I think that this sort of cut&paste should be against the rules of pariprasnena.

I saw TKG in 1993 in Mayapur during the meetings. Well Veda was not there, he was chanting in a different place, so what?

> he was chanting in a different place

In 1993 I was chanting in Prague and around. 8)

Is sun sampradaya trafficking in vaisnava aparadha?

Good question. It seems that way to me. Some articles there are really vicious and many devotees I know avoid that site like a stinking toilet. Rocana is a typical prsonality cultist who deifies Prabhupada and sees extreme fault in everything that does not meet his cult standard.

hey thats not truth about Rocan p. he is 100% loyal to S. Prabhupada and his website is the only one that vaisnavas can breeth some fresh air of freedom of expression. We must exersize our God giving discrimination and try to see how he smass all this ritvic theory ect. You shud read his far out thesis about our Sampradaya acharya S. Prabhupada to see how much he apreciates and loves S. Prabhupada. All other web sites like dandavat ect. they never deal with any controversial issue, only presenting "good news" But most of us we been 30-35 years around iskcon know for sure that there are many , many issues never been try to resolve, just thinking that if we just chant everything will automaticaly get resolve.

knowledge and religiosity, truthfulness and debate

yea,these things may not ultimately be a part of Bhagavata-dharma but they may play a role in the pragmatic dealings of running and manage spiritual society,varnashrama etc.
Probably cannot be completely negated,that might be false renunciation or something.

I heard SP was very practical but not fanatic.

.

The IRM site does not say he was suspended from the GBC. It vaguely suggests that his initiating privileges were suspended with no mention of a GBC Resolution:

[quote]
1992-95:[br]
TKGs understanding of guru-ship takes a further radical twist as he begins preaching that Srila Prabhupada had not given the highest understanding and that everyone should take guidance from the rasika* guru Narayana Maharaja, who one former GBC chairman described as:[br][br]

...a crooked and talented pretender or impostor, who has seduced, beguiled [br]
(Ravindra Svarupa das, Taking Srila Prabhupada Straight, 1998)[br][br]

As a result of his sustained deviancy the GBC suspended TKG for the second time.[br][br]

1995:[br]
TKG now denounces his previous four years of proselytising on behalf of Narayana Maharaja as a mistake, admitting that he was in fact wrong to say that everyone needed a rasika-guru. Of course by now the damage had been done, reverberations of which continue to this day with Narayana Maharaja grabbing huge chunks of ISKCON all over the world. Still, TKGs capitulation allowed him to be once again re-instated as an ISKCON guru. He was back in the guru business yet again.[/quote]

I dont know the original reference for this is, but its mentioned in at least a few places on the Internet. One site seems to indicate that it is covered in _Betrayal of the Spirit_. Whether it is true or not, I dont know; but considering the nature of the topic, I would not expect to see any word of the issue on ISKCON sites, which invariably whitewash unflattering facts. [br][br]

Here is one interesting statement from one of Srila Prabhupadas disciples on NMs site:
[quote]You should remember that HH Sivarama Swami HH Tamal Krishna Swami HH Giriraja Swami and so many others all worshipped Srila Narayan Maharaja with love honor and reference and they only stopped, when threatened by the rest of the GBC that they would loose their positions and disciples if they continued their association with Srila Narayan Maharaja. I still remember the GBC letter on the notice board in Bhaktivedanta Manor. (http://srilanarayanmaharaja.com/?q=node/28)[/quote]

Heres more detail (awkwardly translated courtesy of Google):[br]
[quote]The tension finally came to a head at the anniversary celebration of Srila Prabhupadas entering the sannyasa order, traditionally held at the Narayana Maharajas temple where the actual sannyasa ceremony had taken place in 1959. Tamal Krishna Goswami and Giriraja Swami Prabhupada rather than glorifying, used the occasion to praise the Narayana Maharaja, his association is recommending all of ISKCON. Narayana Maharaja spoke next. He pointed out that there were many higher Prabhupadas teachings that could have given his disciples had been more advanced. He implied that Prabhupadas missionary work was elementary and ISKCON Devotees were now ready for the more advanced stage of Krishna consciousness, which he could give.
[br][br]
Though none at the meeting voiced their protest, and the indignation evoked by these speeches reverberated world-wide. Many felt that things had gone too far and that the GBC must now take a firm stand. Narayana Maharajas followers, however, would not back down, believing that he was misunderstood, they met other ISKCON leaders in India, Europe and North America to promote their cause. But they had not correctly anticipated the response, especially from the North American temple presidents. This influential group, the same who were primarily responsible for putting an end to the zonal-acarya era, demanded those following Narayana Maharaja be stripped of their positions. Many feared that the movement was heading for a major Schism.
[br][br]
This time the GBC was companies. The Rasika-bhakti controversy was first on the 1995 annual meetings agenda. A week of thorough investigation of the implicated members brought in line. They admitted that by promoting a non-ISKCON authority and his teachings, they had relativised Prabhupada and his teachings. Many neophyte Devotees were already following their example and, as Prabhupada had predicted during the gopi-bhava affair, missionary activities were being minimized to focus on personal spiritual advancement. [br][br]

Asked to suggest what they might do to make amends, the leaders involved with the controversy tendered their resignations, which the GBC promptly refused. They further volunteered to refrain from initiating new disciples or visiting Vrndavana until their case could be reassessed the following year. They promised to disassociate themselves entirely from Narayana Maharaja and to correct any misunderstandings created by their past behavior. When the year passed, the GBC was not entirely convinced of their Contrition and at the March 1996 meeting insisted on maintaining most of the restrictions. [/quote](http://tinyurl.com/yg92jy4)[br][br] Perhaps theres something to it...

Where does the thirst for this garbage come from?.....Dweller in peace you put forward nonsense....are you intent on broadcasting continual mistruths?

Bhakta Paul Howard if you want to be a follower of ISKCON,why do you descend to a site that is full of Blaspheme and criticism of ISKCON gbc members...?Who unable to see that the American Yatra is indeed suffering because of their inability to see the good in other devotees.Where does srila Prabhupada say that we should drag down the GBC...AND ISKCON SOCIETY ?This..Bogus IRM site will not take you anywhere except keep you ignorant ,envious and disturbed.As krishna says within Bhagavad gita.15;15....sarvasya ca ham hrdi sannivisto mattah smritir jnanam apohanam ca..vedias ca sarvair aham eva vedyo vedanta krd veda vid eva caham .....i am seated in everyones heart,and from me come rememberance ,knowledge and forgetfulness.By all the vedas i am to be known.......So krishna has given you what you wantforgetfulness of your eternal nature as servant of the servant....ritvik -nonsense attacks the other servants of srila Prabhupada like his grace Bhakti tirha swami.As you said yourself previously ....you had a problem with his sincere devotees glorifying him on his vyasa puja for hours,while they did not do the same for srila Prabhupada.......Sorry but bhakta paul howard that is indeed the spiritual process,one has to bow down and indeed become the servant of the servantof the guru personally present.

These sites like sun sampradaya and BOGUS IRM ....are indeed symptomatic of those who are servants of Maya....They use tactics like Divide and rule,where by they create doubts in neophytes ....then establish their insidious blaspheme with loosely imaginative sastric quotes.And especially with hard hitting emotive headlines....which are indeed different than the content of the article.Recently .....Gopi-bhava....in relation to his divine grace Tamala krishna goswami.My guru was a Pandit .....with the quickest sublime analytical brain within Iskcon....he was never into sahajaism as these headlines and Rocanna das use to paint with their sad innuendo....and envious attempts to drag such great souls down to their kanistha platform...

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]Bhakta Paul Howard if you want to be a follower of ISKCON,why do you descend to a site that is full of Blaspheme and criticism of ISKCON gbc members...?Who unable to see that the American Yatra is indeed suffering because of their inability to see the good in other devotees.Where does srila Prabhupada say that we should drag down the GBC...AND ISKCON SOCIETY ?This..Bogus IRM site will not take you anywhere except keep you ignorant ,envious and disturbed.[/quote]

If youre competent, why dont you write a refutation to TFO and get it approved by the GBC? As I understand it, all their opposition papers have so far contradicted each other and been withdrawn due to errors. [br][br]

[quote][cite]sri_govinda_das:[/cite]As krishna says within Bhagavad gita.15;15....sarvasya ca ham hrdi sannivisto mattah smritir jnanam apohanam ca..vedias ca sarvair aham eva vedyo vedanta krd veda vid eva caham .....i am seated in everyones heart,and from me come rememberance ,knowledge and forgetfulness.By all the vedas i am to be known.......So krishna has given you what you wantforgetfulness of your eternal nature as servant of the servant....ritvik -nonsense attacks the other servants of srila Prabhupada like his grace Bhakti tirha swami.As you said yourself previously ....you had a problem with his sincere devotees glorifying him on his vyasa puja for hours,while they did not do the same for srila Prabhupada.......Sorry but bhakta paul howard that is indeed the spiritual process,one has to bow down and indeed become the servant of the servantof the guru personally present.[/quote]

[quote][cite]ISKCON Law as amended in the 1999 GBC resolution 6.4.8.1.2 states:[/cite]
"ISKCON members shall celebrate Srila Prabhupadas Vyasa-puja ceremony as the preeminent Vyasa-puja ceremony in ISKCON. All ISKCON members are requested to write an annual Vyasa-puja offering to Srila Prabhupada. Vyasa-puja for ISKCON gurus other than Srila Prabhupada should only be observed on one day a year. This celebration may be held in the temple room. ISKCON members conducting Vyasa-puja ceremonies for ISKCON siksa and diksa gurus shall observe them in a modest way, significantly less elaborate in duration and cost than Srila Prabhupadas Vyasa-puja...[/quote]
Why should disciples of an ISKCON guru, with the gurus consent, be able to violate ISKCON law without repercussion?

[br][br]
In the same 1999 resolutions, it is also stated:
[quote][cite]ISKCON law 6.4.8.2:[/cite]"No one in ISKCON will be addressed either publicly or privately with honorific title "His Divine Grace" or the honorifics ending in "-pada". Disciples may address their ISKCON diksa or siksa gurus as "Gurudeva" or "Guru-maharaja"."[/quote]
I have seen you apply the honorific "His Divine Grace" to Tamal Krsna Gosvami repeatedly in this forum, in fact in the above comment. How is it that you flaunt ISKCON law and yet consider yourself a member in good standing? [br][br]

It further states:
[quote][cite] 407. [ACTION ORDER] DEADLINE FOR IMPLEMENTATION [/cite] It is therefore resolved THATall ISKCON diksa and siksa gurus and other authorities are responsible to instruct initiated devotees and aspiring initiates in the above mentioned details of worship and see that they are implemented no later than Srila Prabhupadas Vyasa-puja celebration in 1999. After that time, devotees who fail to uphold these practices shall be subject to censure.[/quote]

Have your gurus failed to instruct you in this matter, or did you reject their instruction? [br][br]

No doubt this may seem like a nasty attack to you, but it is a serious and relevant matter. The GBC wants to regulate the gurus, and the gurus want to be above such regulation. Srila Prabhupada never explained how the GBC would balance authority with multiple initiating gurus. One may fault Srila Prabhupada for overlooking this important subject, but in light of the the other supporting evidence, the direct, obvious answer is that he did not instruct on this subject because he never authorized anyone to be diksa gurus nor did he authorize the GBC to do so. [br][br]
[quote][cite]Srila Prabhupada:[/cite]A guru can become guru when he is ordered by his guru. Thats all. Otherwise nobody can become guru.[br]
(Bg. Lecture, 28/10/75) [/quote]

If some mature, intelligent person were to sit down at his/her computer with the thought, "let me find out something about this Krishna consciousness philosophy and the Hare Krishna chanting" ... and they were to do some Google searching and somehow come upon this website .... do you have any idea how turned off they would become? If you guys want to do some service to the Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya -- pull the plug on this childish insanity and stop embarrassing yourselves and the exalted personalities in the line of disciplic succession.

My dear Bhakta Paul Howard i take your valid rectification seriously....Hence forth i shall call my guru the supreme servitor of his divine graceor The foremost servant of his divine grace.So how does supreme servitor of his divine grace ,srila Tamala -krishna goswami sound to you Prabhu?

To be honest i felt the need to express a certain rebellious spirit ...however since i am within paka association ....high class devotee association i will indeed become more sincere and try and change my errant behaviour....Bhakta Paul Howard.

Interesting speculation Prabhu about the Guru siddhanta,Since we are in fact part of Brahma-Madva gaudiya Sampradaya .Even Srila Prabhupada is unable to change certain features of our Disciplic succession ...Otherwise he would have been crucified rightfully by his godbrothers....even he is indeed subordinate to Rupa Goswami Prabhupada within our line.He is not considered as a Sampradaya Archarya outside our line Prabhu...Generally the other gaudiya Matha temples are usually consulted naturally when such extreme status is determined within the whole Sampradaya and not just Iskcon.

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]My dear Bhakta Paul Howard i take your valid rectification seriously....Hence forth i shall call my guru the supreme servitor of his divine graceor The foremost servant of his divine grace.So how does supreme servitor of his divine grace ,srila Tamala -krishna goswami sound to you Prabhu?[/quote]

Why not just use the accepted honorifics, "His Holiness" for sannyasis and "His Grace" for others? Also, as quoted above, the GBC has ruled, "Disciples may address their ISKCON diksa or siksa gurus as "Gurudeva" or "Guru-maharaja."[br][br]
[quote][cite]Srila Prabhupada:[/cite]The Lord herein confirms that if one is overestimated, glorification is just another form of blasphemy.[br]
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Madhya 10.182[/quote]

I am a very extreme person Prabhu...In one sense i also look to rebel first when offered genuine advice meant for my own benefit.Hare krishna....Also i miss the old days...when we could place our gurus on a large vyasasana and worship them like they were infact representatives of the supreme personality of Godhead.....So i am the other end of the spectrum.I hope that one day we go back to the real vaisnava culture.....large vyasasanas,truck loads of opulence all to worship guru and krishna.Icould go on but it is not the mood in todays enviroment.

Hence when i see the Sun sampradaya peddling offensive diatribe in the name of devotional service i become disturbed...hare krishna Pandu prabhu.

Sri Govinda Prabhu,

I came to the Hare Krishna movement in pursuit of the absolute truth, and I just want to know whats really going on with ISKCON. If someone is accepting worship, I expect him to be a pure, liberated soul fully engaged in devotional service. I would love if I could meet a man who could inspire me like Srila Prabhupada does, but I just dont expect it to happen. I believe in Srila Prabhupada because he introduced me to Krishna through his Bhagavad-gita As It Is, and Krishna in turn certified him as His pure devotee. I dont expect to see Krishna again in this lifetime, so how will I know if there is someone to whom I can surrender? Something like 2/3 of the gurus who have initiated devotees in ISKCON have fallen, so its obvious that picking a guru is tricky business. Personally Id rather make my own mistakes, if Im going to make them, than base my spiritual life on worshiping and making the orders of some pretender my life and soul.

When Bhaktimarga Swami told started talking to me on the phone about a subject that I had not brought up, I felt mystified, thinking that the Supersoul was speaking through him. Then he said, "I dont know where I heard that," and I became somewhat perplexed. A few days later I found out that he had brought it up because two devotees had just called him and told him to talk to me about it, trying to use his authority to manipulate me. In a short time he went from a humble guru to seeming in direct contact with God to looking like a spineless, devious rat. I have forgiven him for it, and I even tried to accept him as a guru, but I just cant do it. I cant put my faith in him again. Its just not possible for me. If that means I dont get to go back to Godhead any time soon, then theres really nothing I can do about it because it would not be honest of me to pledge myself to another guru. Not honest to me, to him, to my family, or to the world.

I dont mean to offend devotees, but its very upsetting to feel like I have been betrayed by ISKCON and so often harassed by its members. It hurts me very deep inside. When I looked into the rtvik issue, I was surprised to see that they had very good arguments. I could not defeat them, and I felt that I could defeat the other side with what they were saying. Does that make me a demon? I dont think so. Im sure not a pure devotee; thats not even a realistic question. But after the Gita-nagari community rejected me, an honest family man trying to do what is right, in favor of a devotee who was found by a devotee jury to be an unrepentant child molester and who was travelling around with young ladies supposedly protecting them, I had to look deep into my heart to see if I really was a demon. I stopped chanting Hare Krishna because I felt that if devotees rejected me then Krishna must not like me. Finally I decided that was wrong, very wrong. Im sincerely trying to serve Srila Prabhupada despite constant harassment from maya devi. Im trying to please Krishna in my own small way. He gave me a job to do, to teach my family to appreciate Krishna consciousness, and Im doing it. Krishna knows my heart very well, and I believe Srila Prabhupada knows it too, and despite my many faults I fully believe they are accepting my service. Im sorry if my writing is disturbing anyone in a bad way, but Im just another jiva soul trying each day to do my best in a world with not nearly enough Krishna consciousness. I never wanted to leave ISKCON, but if ISKCON cannot accept my relationship with Srila Prabhupada, then ISKCON isnt for me. I guess well see how it plays out. Hari bol.

My new freind Pandu das,please accept my kind blessings for your future krishna conciousness advancement.I have read your letter and to the best of my humble ability will attempt to help.Myself i accepted Bhavanada Prabhu and he fell down from his position as guru.However i always loved him even after falling because he elevated this sorry individual to at least the human platform.He took my karma and helped me on many levels personally.Iskcon has a very callous side to deal with once you fall......so it is an exceptional personality who does not dissolve into the modes or kill himself when as a guru you fall down.I will always remember the supreme humble qualities displayed by bhavananda when he personally came before his disciples to tell them he had fallen.And how they viciously attacked him verbally and then attempted to physically do him harm.....I personally jumped to his defence because i think he truly wanted to die there and then......However i can say i have done my duty according to time place and circumstance in such a situation.I know how betrayal feels!But i know our practical philosophy reasonably well after after thirty years of gradual struggle as an initiated servant of our guru.Srila Prabhupada and his servants .

I was trained as a sankirtan devotee and like you i am a husband and farther of 4 devotee children.Aged from 10 months to 14 years....two girls and two teen aged boys.So i do appreciate your situation to a degree i think.What is iskcon up to with the gurus....you ask?

Well for a start if i was honest i would have to give my part line speech,do we need a guru?The answer is definitely yes.Do you need a diksa guru?Definitely however what you really need is a siksa guru.Like i had with The foremost servitor of Prabhupada his grace Tamala krishna goswami maharaja.....boy that was a mouthful to get through.After all to accept someone is really difficult once you have been burnt.As we both have.

Iskcon will not have these problems for ever because there are extremely qualified individuals coming through the ranks.My sons and daughters are real devotees literally from a very young age .They are just genuinely far more krishna- concious,though naturally lazy when i am not around they accept bhagavad gita ,mahabharat..ect.easily and speak sanskrit in our morning classes easily with genuine sincerity.They have not been drenched in the modes of material ignorance and passion like we have.Srila Prabhupada also said that the second generation of devotees...the children would be capable....to say the least.They have not gone to karmi schools so are very natural in their advancment thankfully.

I was attacked by a temple president myself,he banned me for several years till new managment came in.I was expert at reading financial books and thought he was dishonest ....So we had a very short friendship once i decided to be honest to the other devotees.He was a Prabhupada disciple,and still dislikes me intensely.

Though i have a guru who has left and gone to serve with srila Praqbhupada in Tamala krishna goswami presently i listen to an old freind atma -tattva das most days because my wife is looking for a guru herself.He is number one in iskcon for philosophy in my opinion.Dont worry you were right to take shelter of srila Prabhupada .He is our father guru....and is the foundation for us to build everthing on.

You and i must travel a path that is indeed lonely because of our personalities and our natures .But iskcon can provide you with a qualified guru...as it has me with atma tattva das and tamala krishna goswami.Both in my opinion were able to destroy my ignorance easily.Hence i become inspired and am able to hopefully inspire my team also....imagine having to listen to my prattle for an hour a day for 12 years....what bad karma ...my poor kids.BUT Srila Prabhupada has provided for me hopefully he will for you ..your friend sri govinda das.

Our guru siddhanta is unique, iskcon in nature.... because they become qualified on the job.Just by doing ...with the help of the supersoul we all benefit if we are sincere.....that is the problem.We are not as sincere as we should be Pandu Prabhu.

Ccd- "However it became clear that devotees should have established GBC for management and not an acharya. Prabhupada since then was mainly concerned with management, not with guruship. It is obvious. Those who make guruship the center are soooo far from what Prabhupada considered the priority."

Yea,I would imagine management could become the priority in his missionary movement.

ccd- "Prabhupada along with his senior godbrothers voted for an acharya after the disappearance of BSST. And Ananta vasudeva was an acharya."

do u have reference,thanks.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]http://www.scribd.com/doc/18502294/Ananta-Vasudeva[/quote]

I have been hearing about this version of events from several different sources over the years and it makes a lot more sense to me than stories circulating in Iskcon, especially the one about poisoning and suicide.

ccd- "Prabhupada voted for an acharya after the disappearance of BSST."

The link doesnt seem to mention such in relation to SP.

Thank you ccd Prabhu for your help with this interesting history...

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]ccd- "Prabhupada voted for an acharya after the disappearance of BSST."

The link doesnt seem to mention such in relation to SP.[/quote]

It sure does. At least two separate sources confirm that.

-------------------------
> "Within a few months it became clear that the cooperation could not last, and KB and some others left. In the beginning, practically all sided with AV, Prabhupada also." ------------------

"Yes. This was noted by Jati Shekhar Prabhu."
---------------------------------

In other words Chaitanya Math is the first splinter group. Only those who were with Kunja Baba (Tirtha) supported him. I do not know if Bon supported him. Later all others who wanted to start initiating independently had to open their own maths, that is how it fell apart. (and that is what Ritiviks and Guru Kripalikes are proposing, initiate outside of Iskcon...) One of the main supporters of AV was Sridara Swami of Navadivpa who shortly ended up living in Prabhupadas attic... before opening his own branch. Now in this context officiating acharya means, acharya within institution, the acharya that does not have to start his own branch to be the boss. Cooperate people...

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite][quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]ccd- "Prabhupada voted for an acharya after the disappearance of BSST."

The link doesnt seem to mention such in relation to SP.[/quote]

It sure does. At least two separate sources confirm that.
> "Within a few months it became clear that the cooperation could not last, and KB and some others left. In the beginning, practically all sided with AV, Prabhupada also." ------------------
"Yes. This was noted by Jati Shekhar Prabhu."
---------------------------------[/quote]

So where does it mention that SP VOTED?
Thanks.

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]So where does it mention that SP VOTED?
Thanks.[/quote]

I think you have a point there. SP did not have a right to vote as only senior GM leaders were able to vote at that time, but SP apparently actively supported AV in his bid for acharyaship of GM.

vote according to the dictionary in its first meaning is giveing an indication of approval or disapproval of a proposal, motion, or candidate for office. In this case the office was that of an acharya. I have no record of any other sort of voting procedure, I do not know what was the voting procedure, such as in democratic voting or not. It comes from from Latin votum - wish. I suspect there was to straw vote, that is a bit too western, but historically mahants and acharyas do get voted in by followers of a previous acharya.

Now what I am not sure of is if Bhaktisiddhanta ever used acharya in this meaning. He used it for example to his guru, Gaurakisora Babaji, but he was not a head of an institution. Normally BSST would use this meaning to all members of the parampara published.

Yes another meaning of an common used of acharya is given by BSST, still not a head of an intitution:

'c4c'e4rya-sant'e4na
How to respect an 'e4c'e4rya and his offspring.

Those who are endowed with spiritual power and who properly follow the religious principles are called 'e4c'e4ryas. And those who serve Lord Hari following in the footsteps of the 'e4c'e4ryas are known as pure devotees under the shelter of the 'e4c'e4ryas. The Supreme Lord has said, '93You should know Me as an 'e4c'e4rya, therefore never disrespect an 'e4c'e4rya in any way.'94 Just as a disciple is duty-bound to show respect and devotion to his spiritual master, he should show similar respect to the children, friends, and relatives of the spiritual master. How one should behave and respect the spiritual masters sant'e4na, or children, is found in many places in the Dharma-s'e4stras. Considering the children of the 'e4c'e4rya as superior to themselves, like the 'e4c'e4rya, the pure devotees respect them accordingly. To show respect to the family of the 'e4c'e4rya is also proper etiquette and approved by the s'e4stras. (Sajjana-tosani, Vol. 19, Part 2)

The difference between the parivuc0u257 ra
and the santu257 na of an u257 cu257 rya.
The two principle servants of u346 ru299 Mahu257 prabhu were u346 ru299 Prabhu Nityu257 nanda and u346 ru299 Prabhu Advaita. Since u346 ru299 Nityu257 nanda Prabhu and u346 ru299 Advaita Prabhu accepted the gu7771 hastha-u257 u347 rama, Their seminal descendants are known as u257 cu257 rya-santu257 na. Their surrendered servants and devotees in the disciplic succession are also known as Their santu257 na. In Bengal, the servants in the disciplic succession are called parivu257 ra, or family, and seminal descendants are called santu257 na. When one mentions the vau7745 u347 a, or dynasty, of an u257 cu257 rya, it refers to his seminal children as well as his disciples.

Being the offspring of Lord Brahmu257 ,
every living entity is an u257 cu257 rya-santu257 na.
Brahmu257 , the original spiritual master, is the foremost u257 cu257 rya. From him the four varu7751 as and other living entities have taken birth. According to the different occupations, various varu7751 as and castes were created among the descendants. Actually all living entities are santu257 na of the original u257 cu257 rya, Lord Brahmu257 . u346 ru299 Gaurasundara and His associates especially tried to keep the u257 cu257 rya-santu257 nas service attitude intact, just like their fathers.

It does look like BSST never called himself an acharya.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]In other words Chaitanya Math is the first splinter group. Only those who were with Kunja Baba (Tirtha) supported him. I do not know if Bon supported him. Later all others who wanted to start initiating independently had to open their own maths, that is how it fell apart. (and that is what Ritiviks and Guru Kripalikes are proposing, initiate outside of Iskcon...) One of the main supporters of AV was Sridara Swami of Navadivpa who shortly ended up living in Prabhupadas attic... before opening his own branch. Now in this context officiating acharya means, acharya within institution, the acharya that does not have to start his own branch to be the boss. Cooperate people...[/quote]

This is a very good analysis and an important point. Devotees who were initiating on behalf of Srila Prabhupada prior to 1977 were NEVER CALLED OFFICIATING ACHARYAS! Obviously SP was introducing these 11 disciples to a new responsibility in his mission: being an officiating acharya. That seems to line up with the GM history, where you had BOTH the GBC and the officiating or institutional acharyas, at least for a time being.

CCD, you should write a paper on that point and post it on Dandavats and Sampradaya Sun. It is much needed.

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite] Devotees who were initiating on behalf of Srila Prabhupada prior to 1977 were NEVER CALLED OFFICIATING ACHARYAS! Obviously SP was introducing these 11 disciples to a new responsibility in his mission: being an officiating acharya. [/quote]

He said "officiating acarya" meant the same as "rtvik acarya" or "rtvik," and the "new responsibility" that they had was specified in the July 9 letter:[br]

[quote][cite]July 9, 1977, letter:[/cite]In the past Temple Presidents have written to Srila Prabhupada recommending a particular devotees initiation. Now that Srila Prabhupada has named these representatives, Temple Presidents may henceforward send recommendation for first and second initiation to whichever of these eleven representatives are nearest their temple. After considering the recommendation, these representatives may accept the devotee as an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada ..."

Give it a rest Pandu! You r not the Knower!

NO ONE KNOWS!!

Ysvt.

ccd is too motivated to write a Officiating Acarya paper. He is bound by his bias!
Overrides Satyam.

.

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite]
He said "officiating acarya" meant the same as "rtvik acarya" or "rtvik," and the "new responsibility" that they had was specified in the July 9 letter:[br]
[/quote]

IMO Prabhupada wanted to implement the same system that existed for some time in GM right after BSST disappearance. The sannyasis became officiating or institutional acharyas within the mission, initiating disciples on their own behalf (just like the traditional gurus do) - as opposed to leaving the mission and starting their own organization. The main reason ritviks dont want to accept this on face value is because several of the 11 chosen disciples were in fact not qualified to be gurus (like the two active homosexuals pretending to be sannyasis for example), and they dont believe Prabhupada was so wrong naming them for that position. Truth is, they were not qualified to be ritviks either...

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]ccd is too motivated to write a Officiating Acarya paper. He is bound by his bias!
Overrides Satyam. [/quote]

We are all biased.

Our bias manifests in diiferent ways. His conditioned bias would interfere in that instance.

From Micael "All other web sites like dandavat ect. they never deal with any controversial issue, only presenting "good news" But most of us we been 30-35 years around iskcon know for sure that there are many , many issues never been try to resolve, just thinking that if we just chant everything will automaticaly get resolve."
Did Sampradaya Sun ever solve issues and problems?

Did chanting Krishnas holy name ever solve problems?

What do you think?

[quote][cite] NityanandaChandra:[/cite]
Did Sampradaya Sun ever solve issues and problems?

Did chanting Krishnas holy name ever solve problems?

What do you think?[/quote]

Apparently after chanting holy names for close to 4 decades some devotees think its OK for a 40 year old guy to have casual sex with a 13 year old girl... go figure.... ------------

Maybe chanting Hare Krsna does not help with solving criminal problems in society? Ever thought of that? ---------- In the society some solutions are administered by the brahmanas who prescribe chanting, and some solutions are administered by the kshatriyas by hanging or beheading the criminals. Apparently the society requires various solutions for various problems.

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]Give it a rest Pandu! You r not the Knower!

NO ONE KNOWS!!

Ysvt.[/quote]

I thought I was just pointing out what should be obvious based on the record thats been made publicly available. I dont see the point of speculating when there is a written proclamation answering the question. On May 28 Srila Prabhupada said he would appoint some officiating acaryas, then confirmed rtvik was synonymous with that; and the July 9 letter opens with a reference to that conversation. So why would you freak out when the relevant portion of the July 9 letter is quoted? [Br][br]Maybe you should propose that all the accounts here should be purged until Sri Krishna or Srila Prabhupada log in, or is it only me who is "not the Knower?"

Actually all of us know what is the proper siddhanta in this circumstance....we follow the etiquette learn to accept from those personally present!They are especially empowered to share with us the particular environment and mood of the instructions.

That is the simple accepted way ....so what is the problem!The problem is the ritvik godbrothers are unfortunately seeing through crooked envious vision.As bhakta Paul Howard ....pandu das is prone to vomit up everyday.He cannot show us any example of ritvik Archarya....within sampradaya succession.Yet refuse to bow down....mercifully he has been allowed to be initiated.....then again demoniac defects are again present. Within all of us this happens... but we use our higher nature to follow the divine qualities... devotee as a result.Vaisnava culture is present even within the new Bhakta as a result.

Our letter of 9th of july 1977shows us Srila Tamala krishna goswami was indeed present ,So follow his mood!And place his mood within the proper vaisnava siddhanta.....what is the need to speculate.His glorious signature is there on the letter!He new! as you would Nrsingha Prabhu if you were there!As i would have if i had been amongst the foremost disciples

But we were not there because only his intimate devotees foremost devotees were sanctioned to be present..Since it was his final pastimes....this is Parampara.But we suffer from envy and crooked intelligence.....over intelligence especially if you are from the USA.Hence the over intelligence sun sampradaya offensive behaviour all dressed up in gloss....to attack other sincere devotees...and make them miserable like these kanistha sun babas are adept at being themselves.

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]Actually all of us know what is the proper siddhanta in this circumstance....we follow the etiquette learn to accept from those personally present!They are especially empowered to share with us the particular environment and mood of the instructions.[/quote]

Srila Prabhupada obviously placed trust in Kirtananda, who then disobeyed him. Kirtanandas followers murdered Sulocana as he was working on an exposee of that fact. So its just not realistic to suggest that Srila Prabhupada trusting a disciple automatically means that disciple has no self-interest and wont betray that trust.[Br][br]
Similarly, Tamal Krishna was with Srila Prabhupada extensively in 1977, and undoubtedly was privileged to hear from him what was supposed to happen with regard to initiations. No doubt he heard much more than we know. The question may then be asked if he could be trusted to give us the right idea, and he confessed on December 3, 1980, that he could not.[Br][br]
After Srila Prabhupadas disappearance, TKG went on to claim Zonal Acarya status; and if what Ive heard is true, he later claimed to be the Chief Acarya over the others. The retalation lead to his Dec. 3, 1980, confessions, wherein he stated that Srila Prabhupada did not appoint any gurus. [Br][br]
"We made a great mistake," he said. But it could not have been a mistake. How could it have been? He said, "there was definitely some degree of trying to control... This is the conditioned nature, and it came out in the highest position of all, Guru, oh wonderful! Now I am guru, and there is only eleven of us."[Br][br]
How can anyone be expected to trust a man who falsely assumed the position of acarya and used that position to commit so many kinds of misdeeds? No, Im not going to fall for that. There is sufficient evidence preserved to know that Srila Prabhupada did not appoint any gurus (as TKG eventually confessed), and his intention to continue initiating is plainly stated in his response to Satsvarupas question on May 28, 1977, together with the July 9 letter, and is supported by other evidence too extensive to list here.

ccd is indeed sincere....nrsingha prabhu,with our encouragment. The actual problem is everyone is expert at appearing a sleep when wide awake.....their cheating mentality is alert....how does this fit within my own agenda.....so i can enjoy the results of my efforts.

Bhakta Paul howard....aka pandu das you are intent on vomiting your sad envy.....You who has committed vaisnava aparadha....against your own guru....you are just a foolish person....now you want to insult us with your sahaja mood and siddhantas.........please do not continue as you cast your sad perversions on my gurus and drift down ....and down to further offensive behaviour and insanity.

In another discussion, VEDA Prabhu raised the point of the continued discussion on May 28, 1977, after Srila Prabhupada said, "Rtvik. Yes." But then VEDA quickly requested that discussion closed before I could answer his question. (If you cant beat em, ban em.)[br][br]

Personally Ive read that conversation numerous times but it never made sense to me. It did not flow right, and it seemed like Srila Prabhupada and his disciples were talking about different subjects. I could not make sense of it, and I was astonished to see when Tamal Krsna said, "Thats clear." It wasnt clear at all from the transcript.[br][br]

Later I learned that there were several different transcripts, and eventually I found this, which I found very revealing:[br]

[quote][cite]Institutinal Cataclysm:[/cite] Over the years there have been 5 different official transcripts of the same short (approx. 30 seconds) conversation,
and 4 official interpretations. It was with a view to clearing up this issue of authenticity that the GBC passed a resolution
in 1997 to have the tape investigated by a forensic examiner. This was done through a special committee set-up for this
task, who engaged the services of world renowned forensic investigator, Norman Perle. On September 22nd, 1997, Mr Perle
released a report of a preliminary analysis that was done on a COPY of the tape. A preliminary analysis is usually done to
determine whether there are sufficient grounds for conducting a much costlier and more in-depth forensic investigation. Normally
if the preliminary analysis, which only runs some basic checks, finds evidence that casts doubts on the reliability of the
evidence, a full forensic examination is recommended by the investigator on the ORIGINAL version of the tape, to conclusively
determine the nature and scope of any possible tampering. This is what the report concluded:[br][br]
[quote][cite]GBC appointed forensic investigator (22/9/97), N. Perle:[/cite]
'93In conclusion, this recording exhibits strong signs suggestive of falsification. I do not believe that these deficiencies
might possibly be the product of some mechanical process or problem within the recording or duplication process and
I believe that they exist at what is considered to be a higher degree than that of a coincidence. I strongly recommend
that an independent Forensic Analysis be conducted the Master recording in order to determine the authenticity and
originality of the evidence. This analysis requires what is represented as the original recording and the original tape
recorder upon which this recording was represented to be made.'94[/quote]

The conclusion, in the words of the GBC'92s own appointed examiner, is that until such a forensic analysis is done on the ORIGINAL tape, we have no grounds for assuming the reliability and authenticity of the evidence. Thus until the investigation is
done the GBC effectively have no evidence on the table.[/quote]
As far as I know, the portion of the tape beginning with Satsvarupas quesiton and ending with Srila Prabhupadas response, "Rtvik. Yes." has never been challenged by any devotee; therefore I consider it reasonably valid evidence. Until the original tape is released for a complete forensic analysis, I dont see any reason to consider it authentic.

You do not have any right to quote my guru....in context or out.You should follow your IRM website and stay away from iskcon....Mayadevi has you completely...just surrender further to her....hare krishna i bless you.

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]You do not have any right to quote my guru....in context or out.You should follow your IRM website and stay away from iskcon....Mayadevi has you completely...just surrender further to her....hare krishna i bless you.[/quote]

I have never claimed to be free from maya. But if Mayadevi has me "completely," how is it that I manage to chant 16 rounds each day, care for Tulasi in my home, worship Srila Prabhupada and listen to his lestures daily, etc.? [br][br]
It seems like youll say anything to keep your fantasy intact.

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]Our bias manifests in diiferent ways. His conditioned bias would interfere in that instance.[/quote]I do not mind if you write an article dave. I certainly would not want to publish it anywhere where it will look biased.

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]In other words Chaitanya Math is the first splinter group. Only those who were with Kunja Baba (Tirtha) supported him. I do not know if Bon supported him. Later all others who wanted to start initiating independently had to open their own maths, that is how it fell apart. (and that is what Ritiviks and Guru Kripalikes are proposing, initiate outside of Iskcon...) One of the main supporters of AV was Sridara Swami of Navadivpa who shortly ended up living in Prabhupadas attic... before opening his own branch. Now in this context officiating acharya means, acharya within institution, the acharya that does not have to start his own branch to be the boss. Cooperate people...[/quote]

This is a very good analysis and an important point. Devotees who were initiating on behalf of Srila Prabhupada prior to 1977 were NEVER CALLED OFFICIATING ACHARYAS! Obviously SP was introducing these 11 disciples to a new responsibility in his mission: being an officiating acharya. That seems to line up with the GM history, where you had BOTH the GBC and the officiating or institutional acharyas, at least for a time being.

CCD, you should write a paper on that point and post it on Dandavats and Sampradaya Sun. It is much needed.[/quote] It does line up well with GM history and with Sridhara Swamis variations on the same problem. Problem is how to keep institution together.

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]ccd is too motivated to write a Officiating Acarya paper. He is bound by his bias!
Overrides Satyam.

.[/quote] Actually bias does not override satyam. You just have to understand where you stand, and present your point of view based on sastra. There is no point in speaking something that you have no experience or realization about.. And everyone has separate experiences, that are by definition subjective. That is one meaning of being an acharya, teach by own example."

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite][quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]You do not have any right to quote my guru....in context or out.You should follow your IRM website and stay away from iskcon....Mayadevi has you completely...just surrender further to her....hare krishna i bless you.[/quote]

I have never claimed to be free from maya. But if Mayadevi has me "completely," how is it that I manage to chant 16 rounds each day, care for Tulasi in my home, worship Srila Prabhupada and listen to his lestures daily, etc.? [br][br]
It seems like youll say anything to keep your fantasy intact.[/quote]
Okay now we will have to listen on who is in maya and who is not. Come on Pandu you already have a perfect living guru and supreme Vasnavsi in you home. What else do you need for a living guru? Tulasidevi ki Jaya!!

Acarya means perfect example.

[quote][cite] ccd- "Prabhupada voted for an acharya after the disappearance of BSST."

SP.[/quote]

What was ur motive for writing this?

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd- "Prabhupada voted for an acharya after the disappearance of BSST."

SP.[/quote]

What was ur motive for writing this?[/quote] It is just stating the fact, that he has supported AVP. What is your problem with it? A normal thing to do, support an acharya, the system of management was not finalised by BSST, who wanted to have a GBC but had no time to implement the system, he only talked about it a couple of month before his departure. What is your motive in bringing it up?

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]Acarya means perfect example.[/quote] Acharya has (obviously) quite a few meanings. It is a person who knows and teaches the AcAra or the rules, the foundation, the basis. Acharya is also a title, a position. Specifically and traditionally it is a type of guru who gives the brahmana thread.

[br][br]

Another more specific definition of acarya is given by Prabhupada a few weeks before he died:
[br][br]

The acarya gives the suitable method for crossing the ocean of nescience by accepting the boat of the Lords lotus feet, and if this method is strictly followed, the followers will ultimately reach the destination, by the grace of the Lord. This method is called acarya-sampradaya. It is therefore said, sampradaya-vihina ye mantras te nisphala matah (Padma Purana). The acarya-sampradaya is strictly bona fide. Therefore one must accept the acarya-sampradaya; otherwise ones endeavor will be futile. Srila Narottama dasa Thakura therefore sings:

[br][br]
tandera carana sevi bhakta sane vasa
janame janame haya, ei abhilasa

[br][br]
One must worship the lotus feet of the acarya and live within the society of devotees. Then ones endeavor to cross over nescience will surely be successful.
SB 10.2.31purp

[br][br]
However it could have been Panditjis elaboration, since Prabhupada normally uses the term acarya and guru equally. Even in the same purport.

No doubt SP supported AVP.

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd- "Prabhupada VOTED for an acharya after the disappearance of BSST."

SP.[/quote]

[/quote]

So what was the motive for writting it?

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]No doubt SP supported AVP.

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd- "Prabhupada VOTED for an acharya after the disappearance of BSST."

SP.[/quote]

[/quote]

So what was the motive for writting it?[/quote] It is a third time you are asking me this question. Whatever drug you are on, I want it too, dave!!! Are getting your prescription on NHS or via BoopaIreland?

[quote][cite]:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd- "Prabhupada voted for an acharya..."

.[/quote]

this?[/quote]

3. loaded - (of statements or questions) charged with associative significance and often meant to mislead or influence; "a loaded statement"
discriminatory, prejudiced - being biased or having a belief or attitude formed beforehand; "a prejudiced judge"

charged with associative significance and often meant to mislead or influence; "a loaded statement".

I am sorry, David Prabhu, it is not me who have a measure of prejudice or desire to judge here, obviously. It is you who have pre-conception of what Prabhupadas position is and was at all times. You dismiss any and every fact if it does not fit into your version, that he is a direct avatara of Mother Yasoda and on the status of avatara-acharya? Now is this a loaded question? No it is not. However there is evidence that Prabhupada supported the person whom majority of the disciples of SBBST supported at the time? It also aligns with most of his statments, where it seems he did put faith in him and later lost it. I am still awaiting a publication of Phd dissertation on the subject of GM and BSSTfrom Sweden, it has materials from the courts and apparently the facts of the conflict are a little bit different to what is publicly known, according to what the author told me. Instead of accusing others, you better check how loaded your nagging is.

No doubt SP supported AVP. What has that got to do with what u wrote?[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite][quote][cite]:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd- "Prabhupada voted for an acharya..."

.[/quote]

this?[/quote]

3. loaded - (of statements or questions) charged with associative significance and often meant to mislead or influence; "a loaded statement"
discriminatory, prejudiced - being biased or having a belief or attitude formed beforehand; "a prejudiced judge"[/quote]

"I"It is you who have pre-conception of what Prabhupadas position is and was at all times."

I never mentioned anything about at all times.

"You dismiss any and every fact if it does not fit into your version, that he is a direct avatara of Mother Yasoda and on the status of avatara-acharya"

SP eternal svarupa what ever it may be is not of issue.

R u saying u r most unfortunate in that U dont understand how a genuine Prabhupada and in this case Founder-Acarya is by definition avesa-avatara?? Surely all it takes is a tiny little bit of insight along with all that book knowledge. Isnt it! ;-)

Ohe Vaisnava-Thakar.

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]

"You dismiss any and every fact if it does not fit into your version, that he is a direct avatara of Mother Yasoda and on the status of avatara-acharya"

SP eternal svarupa what ever it may be is not of issue.[/quote] I think you are forgetting that Prabhupadas lila is part of Lord Caitanyas pastimes and he is his associate. The suggestion of yours that he is an incarnate of Mother Yasoda (because having her swarupa means just that, an avatara) is preposterous and seriously lacks in realisation (which you continue to share). I think you try to add to what he is by suggesting that he is more than what others (like me) perceive. That can be the case, but you can not be a judge of it, for obvious for us reasons that I am not prepared to disclose on this forum. I am prepared to discuss with those who are leaking the jar of bhaktiyoga proper from the outside, but I am not prepared to make them into judges of any kind.

I dont believe that SP is necessarily Sri Mata Yasoda. It was something I heard and was suggested.

HA,HA now u r using that red herring to skip around the issue. SB STATES ONE NEEDS TO BECOME THOROUGHLY HONEST! ISNT IT?

NEVER WE BE SO ENVIOUS OF SPs SOVEREIGN & MAJESTIC CATEGORY Its ok because even if officiating Guru is not Acarya still he is as good as Acarya when one is in line with such. Isnt it? None of us should spend our whole life been defensive of a mundane egoic concept of my guru. This could fall easily into the category of I,Me,Mine. :-(

NOT OUR WHOLE LIFE! At some point please... Isnt it?

Our Founder-Acarya and previous Acarya and any future advent r simply Vaisnava-Thakar. U can understand on at least some level,isnt it?

Srila Prabhupada writes;"When one has attained the topmost position of maha-bhagavata, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshiped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead.'a0Only such a person is eligible to occupy the post of a guru."

Srila Prabhupada is revealing his position as the jagad-guru. Srila Prabhupada distributed the Holy Name (thru his books) all over the world. Krishna is His pure devotee Prabhupadas property to give.This is Vaisnava-Thakar. KNOW IT!!

Caitanya-caritamrta, Antya 7.12:

"'85in the Dvapara-yuga one could satisfy Krsna or Visnu only by worshiping opulently according to the pancaratriki system, but in the age of Kali one can satisfy and worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead Hari simply by chanting His holy name." Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura explains that unless one is directly empowered by the causeless mercy of Krsna, one cannot become the spiritual master of the entire world (jagad-guru). One cannot become an acarya simply by mental speculation. The true acarya presents Krsna to everyone by preaching the holy name of the Lord throughout the world. Thus the conditioned souls, purified by chanting the holy name, are liberated from the blazing fire of material existence. In this way, spiritual benefit grows increasingly full, like the waxing moon in the sky. The true acarya, the spiritual master of the entire world, must be considered an incarnation of Krsnas mercy. Indeed, he is personally embracing Krsna. He is therefore the spiritual master of all the varnas (brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya and sudra) and all the asramas (brahmacarya, grhastha, vanaprastha and sannyasa). Since he is understood to be the most advanced devotee, he is called paramahamsa-thakura. Thakura is a title of honor offered to the paramahamsa. Therefore one who acts as an acarya, directly presenting Lord Krsna by spreading His name and fame, is also to be called paramahamsa-thakura."

I pray that nobody ever Googles in "Hare Krishna" or "Krishna consciousness" or "Srila Prabhupada" with the aim to learn something about bhakti-yoga and chanting the Maha Mantra --- and somehow comes up with this site. All these childish hair-splitting arguments should be taking place by private correspondences and emails. Its one thing to air dirty laundry but here you are airing stupid laundry. The irony of it all is that youre doing it on a thread that in essence is making some self-righteous judgment regarding Sampradaya Sun -- that it is "trafficking" in Vaisnava aparadha. What exactly is the purpose of all this? What are you accomplishing by all this bickering and bantering? Youre making fools of yourselves and you are certainly not representing the Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya in a dignified way. Stop it already. Enough is enough.

Yes,thank u Portnoy prabhu. We probably need a lot More Mature devotees like urself and others to keep us in tow. Jaya!

Ysvt.

Jaya Nitai!

R u senior devotee or young,not that it necessarily matters in itself. Just curious!

HK!

That is why actual self-controlled Brahmanical culture and guidence is so important. A rare breed at present dark times,methinks! Its lacking is highlighted in cyperspace,it seems! :-(

We pray...!

Ysvt.

Self -Rightious.....judgement?No it is an axiomatic truth.....self evident and sadly ineptly offensive to those who have built Iskcon ....Portnoy prabhu.

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Thakur;
'a0"The only duty of the sadhus is to cut away all accumulated wicked propensities of every individual. This alone is the causeless natural desire of all the sadhus. Worldly people possess a double nature. They express one kind of sentiment but internally cherish a different purpose. Moreover, they want to advertise this duplicity as a mark of liberalism or love of harmony.

Those who are unwilling to show any duplicity wish to be frank and straight forward or in other words to exercise unambiguously the function of the soul. Such really sincere persons are called sectarian and orthodox by those who practice duplicity. We will not keep company with any person who is not so. We must by all means avoid bad company. We are advised to keep at a distance of 100 cubits from animals of the horned species. We should observe the same in regard to all insincere persons."

(The Harmonist)

Sampradaya Sun is the eye opener. Its the best thing that has ever happened to ISKCON. Long live Rochan Prabhu.

Sorry Prabhu...But Rocana das is allowing blaspheme ....this is not an Iskcon practice.We do not attack our guru like a pack of dogs ....While openly propounding ones own agendas at the expense of vaisnava etiquette and generally accepted iskcon practices.Sun sampradaya refuses to publish so many things which go against Rocanas personal agenda.It is frequented by ex -Iskcon blasphemers who have a common thread of trying to destroy Srila Prabhupadas Iskcon movement .However if you are envious and crippled in your mentality to Srila Prabhupadas Iskcon ....yes it is indeed your site to enjoy the un-solicited attacks on devotees.

Another troll. The general rule - do not feed them!

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]Sorry Prabhu...But Rocana das is allowing blaspheme ....[/quote]

To freely discuss the questionable activities and twisted path of ISKCON is blasphemy? Obviously you do not understand what blasphemy is.

[quote]We do not attack our guru like a pack of dogs ....[/quote]

No, just cover up his last instructions, modify his published works. Generally go against his wishes and create another bogus religious institution.

[quote]Sun sampradaya refuses to publish so many things which go against Rocanas personal agenda.[/quote]

Start your own website and lets see if you publish a shred of an idea different from your own. One of the best things about Rochans website is that he does not align himself with "ritviks" or ISKCON or any other splinter group. He publishes articles from a wider range of authors than any ISKCON site I have found.

[quote]It is frequented by ex -Iskcon blasphemers who have a common thread of trying to destroy Srila Prabhupadas Iskcon movement. [/quote]

Srila Prabhupadas ISKCON Movement? I think youre confused again, surely you mean his Krsna Conciousness movement? Youve got this backwards, Im afraid. It is one of the handful of sites on the web devoted to trying to restore Srila Prabhupadas true teachings and do so in an open and frank manner.

[quote]However if you are envious and crippled in your mentality to Srila Prabhupadas Iskcon ....yes it is indeed your site to enjoy the un-solicited attacks on devotees.[/quote]

I see no ISKCON, just a dried up FISKCON.

My dear bhakta mung ,please give up your attraction for fish,which is bad for spiritual advancment,dried up FISKCON....we dont serve fish in our restaurants.Due to your previous doubtful association kanistha devotee association , it is indeed understandable you lack proper prasadam. I have just looked at the back to godhead magazine..july/august...280 centres worldwide.So please come to the sunday feast nearest you.Please if you can fit it in, we will be happy to introduce you to our Founder-Archarya.Srila AC Bhaktivedanta swami Prabhupada.You seem confused ,but this is only temporary....Chant hare krishna hare krishna krishna krishna hare hare.....and with krishnas sublime mercy you can stop being attracted to the lower qualities of the modes of material nature....ps stay away from your natural desire to read offensive criticism on sun sampradaya....it is where crows feed.... not swans...Nice to hear from you Bhakta Mung.

Sadly there are no Sunday feasts on my small island.

I see some ISKCON representatives run a catering business once a year at a local music festival, but they have no time to talk to me.

Please accept me as a new freind...bhakta mung.My email is sri_govinda_das@yahoo.com.I also live on an island,called new zealand in the south pacific.I am sorry my freinds had no time to talk,but hopefully we can get to know each other.....while both attempting to hear and ask questions about sri krishna........your sincerly sri govinda das.

sri_govinda_das, Sampradaya sun has recently exposed one cheater who was pretending as a big swami. In that light, real ISKCON can be compared to mother Sita, Srila Prabhupada can be compared to Lord Ramchandra, bogus gurus of ISKCON can be compared to 10 headed Ravana and then Rochan Prabhu can be compared to Hanuman. Like Hanuman burnt the lanka of demon Ravana to rescue mother Sita, same way Rochan Prabhu is burning this lanka of bogus guru monsters to rescue real ISKCON.

This is another prespective to view sampradaya sun.

Rama bhakta Hanumana ki jaya. Rochan Prabhu ki jaya.

Yes Prabhu,i take your piont ,you have been too long in the sun.....your real iskcon has how many temples?....my ISKCON has 280 temples and many restaurants worldwide as of 6months ago.Your champion is expert at attacking......60 year old plus devotees ,who spent 35 -45 years as champion preachers!,took the sins of their disciples and gave everthing they have to their guru.....Srila Prabhupada!
Sorry what was their motive?....it was not an attempt to please srila PRABHUPADA.?
And you are taking pleasure because you think you have dragged down a preacher of the srimad bhagavatam! Quickly tell my wife no more Bhagavad gita classes for my sons.......the sun sampradaya is going to hunt them down.......Gee gosh suparna.....you saved us all......thank you!
I will take your good advice and just go back to the hotel and have the same drugs ,eat the same meat,the same sex and gamble.......as you ....isnt that better for me!....boy gum ,the sun sampradaya really has the real deal team.....Rocana das and fools....thank you krishna......yes prabhu you are in the right team.......

sri_govinda_das, your problem is that you belong to a party line, the party of gurus and this is the reason that you are not able to see it neutrally. If you look at the things from little distance, you will see that sampradaya sun is not that bad as you think.

Sorry Prabhu.....you are right,i intensely dislike Guru-Aparadha.....I find it disgusting that kanisthas take pleasure in dragging down genuine devotees i have know personally for twenty-thirty years .Where does it say, when such ignorant fools attack iskcon the only authorised vehicle of my guru.....it is pleasing to srila Prabhupada.Sorry srila Prabhupada said we should see Iskcon like a british soldier,England....England with all thy faults ,i love thee.Simaliarly Iskcon with all thy faults i love thee!This is pleasing not this extremely biased polluted site.....the motivation is to elevate Rocana das to a position of a siksa guru.However he is offensive and envious.....to his own godbrothers....this is demoniac,such behaviour is for politicians.Cheaters....and you are the cheated.That is the actual situation.....Even if such persons ,devotees have spiritual problems....vaisnava culture is you go close and give protection and attempt to benefit and elevate him......but give shelter.Does Rocana das do this... No!....so he is kanistha at best.....profiting of such mode of passion cheating mentality.

Again Suparna ,when you attempt to rip down iskcon,how mant temples do you have?.........How many book distributors,iskcon life members,farms and restaurants do you and your team have?.....You have nothing !So which team is actually empowered by Srila Prabhupada.....you are simply foolish......simply addicted to finding fault.

If you are inside a theater and you see a fire break out it is your duty to scream at the top of your lungs "FIRE FIRE FIRE." Its not a matter of free speech -- its a matter of common sense. Not just a few -- but the majority -- of the 5 or 6 thousand good folks who were initiated by Srila Prabhupada and who spent their youthful years selflessly serving his mission and helping to build ISKCON from the ground up are of the opinion that the house they helped Srila Prabhuapda build for all the world to live is ON FIRE. There are some well meaning souls active within ISKCON who cant see the forest for the trees and who feel a need to defend everything ISKCON and denounce a person like Rocana. Could Rocanas website survive one day without the support of hundreds of his godbrothers and sisters? Are they all horned vipers? No. They are sincere and mature aspiring devotees who know the difference between being offensive and being alert for the wrong.

When a certain godbrother went from being a sannyasi to marrying a woman who pretended to be an heiress to a great fortune -- and then the two of them ran the New York center into the ground with their nonsense -- Srila Prabhupada was angry at the rank and file members of that center who failed to see it and stop it (and thus it was left to Srila Prabhupada to "nip in the bud.") Srila Prabhupada commented "how will things go on when I am gone if my students are not able to see when there is deviation going on in their midst?" So dont become an institutionalized robot. You can be a good disciple and an independent thinker at the same time. Its all a matter of your sincerity of intention (or lack thereof). Getting into a squabble on the Internet pointing fingers at one another and saying "youre a demon ... no youre a demon ... no youre an offender ... oh yeah -- well youre going to hell" is not representative of our line.

Oh and by the way -- not only doesnt Rocana profit with Sampradaya Sun -- but he has invested a fortune of his own hard earned money to keep it up and running. I hear some of you making bold statements about what Vaisnava culture is and is not without really understanding the mood of our Sampradaya Acarya His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Better you stop, look and listen rather than pose as an advanced teacher and risk misrepresenting the truth.

Your ANALOGY is inappropriate for present day Iskcon prabhu.We have a worldwide society 4 -6 times bigger than when srila Prabhupada was personally present.Though our guru have struggled and many persons have lacked sincerity to truly understand the nature of our Siksa disciplic succession.Rocanas sad attempts to use Hollywood style ,Sunday paper tactics to create scandalous gossip to try and shape how he wants iskcon to be are truly misguided.
Do you honestly think by attacking devotees rather than trying to help, is what our Founder -Archarya would like to see been done?I for one think not!
Actually putting ones own emotions aside the society as a whole is growing.However not according to the many situated within the US and especially some disciples of A C Bhaktivedanta swami Prabhupada who have been left adrift..These two groups have failed to be progressive unfortunately.However as a result of this disempowerment from the american yatra,possible the rest of iskcon which are successfulwill infact rise to the occasion and fill the small vacuum left by the usa yatra .After all the USA seems to be fading on all fronts on the world stage.....does it not!

Have some respect you moron. Never write the name of His Divine Grace without either preceding it with Srila or His Divine Grace. Do you know anything? Youre a fool and you should stop writing and stop talking for at least ten years Sri Govinda Das. You have no brain and yet you speak and give out all sorts of advice and opinion. You need to just shut up. Just shut up and thats all you need to do. Can you do that? Is that possible? Its really easy. Each and every time you get some urge to say or write something just remember that you dont have a brain and therefore whatever you say or write is useless. I get the feeling that you are relatively young -- maybe thirty something at most -- so you have plenty of time to grow up and become a little wise. Then you can pick up where you left off with all the spouting and pontificating. Now go in front of a mirror and repeat over and over "I have no brain" and we can discuss some more in a decade or two.

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]We have a worldwide society 4 -6 times bigger than when srila Prabhupada was personally present.[/quote]

Give me one ounce of gold over a ton of stool.

According to Rupa Goswami'92s small work entitled,
'91Nectar of Instruction'92, a great soul is one who is devoid of the inclination to
criticize others. He thinks everyone is good and he is not..........Sorry but your sun sampradaya team is not following the sampradaya archarya....Srila Rupa goswami Prabhupada ,and yes i will attempt to put srila ,when i address his divine grace .Valid piont prabhu.....Actually i am 49 years of age ,was initiated in early 1980.....have chanted ever since and attempted to follow hare krishna.

My dear bhakta Mung,please come to our restaurants....chant hare krishna...We even allow sun sampradaya people to take prasadam also.....dont worry just chant....hare krishna.

Now I want that we shall concentrate on making our devotees Krishna conscious and ourselves becoming Krishna conscious, and not be so much concerned with expanding ourselves widely but without any spiritual content. Just like boiling the milk, it becomes thicker and sweeter. Now do like that, boil the milk.

letter from His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada to disciple

portnoy, did you read Pariprasnenas terms of service? I dont think so. Please read them and stop your name-calling. That disqualifies you from being taken seriously.

sri_govinda_das: Again Suparna ,when you attempt to rip down iskcon,how mant temples do you have?.........How many book distributors,iskcon life members,farms and restaurants do you and your team have?.....You have nothing !So which team is actually empowered by Srila Prabhupada.....you are simply foolish......simply addicted to finding fault.

VEDA: portnoy, did you read Pariprasnenas terms of service? I dont think so. Please read them and stop your name-calling. That disqualifies you from being taken seriously.

When sri_govinda_das calles others fools, VEDA gives him thumbs up. When others call him the same way, then VEDA reminds others of pariprashnenas terms of service, because they belong to same party line. And the same thing bogus gurus have been doing to other sincere devotees who did not agree with them. Just kick them out.

This is the reason why Sampradaya Sun is so much important so that ordinary devotees who get opressed by such bogus gurus can have a voice.

Hare Krsna.

suparna:
Fool is very mild, in comparison with aparadha committed. Aparadha knows no party line. This is not worldly politics in the first place. And I dont expect appreciation from such type of people. It would mean something is wrong with me.

Show your own bright achievements and then talk about who is bogus. If theres even one guru who isnt bogus, youre aparadhi.

To say that present day Iskcon is all worthless (or worse, just filth) while Iskcon under Srila Prabhupada was all gold, is to misrepresent historical facts. Iskcon under Srila Prabhupada was not all gold - a lot of very serious abuse of power and very serious criminal activities took place at that time. Certainly these nefarious activities had their peak during zonal acharya period, but they had their roots in the golden age of Iskcon. It needs to be pointed out that at the present time such abuses of power and criminal actions are very rare. Present day Iskcon has thousands of dedicated preachers carrying on with the mission. To minimize their work is to disregard the facts.

kula-pavana: Iskcon under Srila Prabhupada was not all gold - a lot of very serious abuse of power and very serious criminal activities took place at that time. Certainly these nefarious activities had their peak during zonal acharya period, but they had their roots in the golden age of Iskcon.

yes, that is right and in those days there was no sampradaya sun. If there would have been something like that perhaps all these nefarious activities wouldnt last that long.

Kula-pavana: It needs to be pointed out that at the present time such abuses of power and criminal actions are very rare.

Yes, because if someone comes to know about them within a day they can be exposed on Sampradaya sun. So it helps to keep them on track.

Actually GBC should be immensely grateful to Sampradaya sun. Jayatirtha was slain, kirtanananda was violently attacked. Because the people who did this violence had no other way to express their feelings or some way to be heard. So they took the extreme measure of violence. Have there been a thing like sampradaya sun, may be jayatirtha would have been alive today. There are no violent attacks happening these days because devotees just write on sampradaya sun. In one way, Rochan Prabhu is protecting GBC by providing an outlet to these unsatisfied, hurt devotees. Ideally this should have been done by GBC if they were really good managers.

you can take down the sampradaya sun and you will see that violent attacks on GBCs and gurus will start happening. Samparadaya sun helps to prevent those, this is their unique contribution.

[quote][cite] suparna:[/cite]Kula-pavana: It needs to be pointed out that at the present time such abuses of power and criminal actions are very rare.

Yes, because if someone comes to know about them within a day they can be exposed on Sampradaya sun. So it helps to keep them on track.
[/quote]

I am all for facilitating a free flow of information, but not a free flow of garbage spewed in the name of improving our movement.
I personally used Sampradaya Sun to bring to light abuses of devotees taking place on the German farm. The information should be factual and presented in a civil way, like it is expected among the civilized people, let alone Vaishnavas. A lot of articles presented on SS are merely emotional diatribes, rants, unsubstantiated accusations and character asassinations filled with childish name calling. -------------

Srila Prabhupada was very protective of the image of his institution. He usually chose not to pursue legal action against disciples who run off with a bunch of Iskcons money, or who abused children in the gurukulas. He also did not like to make public the falldowns of his appointed managers, including those who fell down from their sannyasa vows. It is debatable whether this was the best long term solution to the problems faced by his movement but it really was his sentiment. ----------- If we chose to air our laundry in public we should do it with some rudimentary civility and sensibility.

Yes i agree prabhu...it has some genuine purpose as you suggest...Sun- sampradaya could be a useful forum ,however because of the points you have displayed it unfortunately fails to be a serious vaisnava vehicle for positive change.

Also such gunda ...thug mentality is present on this site....such is the nature of the mode of ignorance.Vedic culture is saturated with sweet sentiment, like if you are unable to defeat your adversary ,while discussing sastra you are duty bound to accept him as your guru!....But we deal with cultureless persons....unfortunately like myself attempting to be accepted within the real vaisnava inner sanctum.

The Sampradaya Sun openly supports the view that rightly-placed criticism is essential for preserving the integrity of Vaisnava culture. Opponents here deny it, but then they criticize the devotees who operate and contribute to the Sampradaya Sun. The Sampradaya Sun may be right or may be wrong, but at least theyre not hypocrites.

[quote][cite]From _Our Srila Prabhupada, A Friend to All_, _Early Contemporaries Remember Him_, this part told by Srila Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Goswami Maharaja:[/cite]

'93'85Later Abhaya Caranaravinda Prabhu wrote another dramatic article '97 this time about some of the leaders in the Gaudiya Matha. The article explained how the institution was coming apart after Srila [Bhaktisiddhanta] Prabhupada'92s departure. Grihasthas were giving up their wives and loving others'92 wives, and in the name of developing the mission, some were putting all the money collected into their own pockets. Sannyasis, even those who had been with their Prabhupada, were making buildings and sending all the money to their sons in their former homes to go to high school and university, or to go to England and America to study law and other things. He wrote about this situation and the first part was published in our Bhagavata-patrika and Gaudiya-patrika. At once a big storm broke out in the whole Gaudiya Mission. Although only about three pages were printed, letters began to come from many Gaudiya Mathas.
[br][br]
'93It was like a revolution. Our guru maharaja and Abhaya Caranaravinda Prabhu were talking and smiling very secretly together. Prabhu said, '91We should publish more of it. Why not?'92 Guru Maharaja was also in favor of publishing it. However many of the godbrothers exclaimed, '91Oh, Kesava Maharaja, what are you doing, printing this? Then everyone will know and will criticize the Gaudiya Matha. These are our private family matters.'92 Even Pujyapada Srila Sridhara Maharaja, who was highly respected by all, was consulted. Many godbrothers came to Mathura at that time and Abhaya Caranaravinda Prabhu was residing here in our matha. Srila Tirtha Maharaja andother devotees asked, '91What are you going to do? If you print this then our present institution will be smashed.'92 Guru Maharaja and Abhaya Caranaravinda Prabhu were smiling and asking each other, '91Oh, what to do?'92 But when requested by so many godbrothers they decided, '91Later on we may publish the articles, but for now we should obey their orders.'92'94[/quote]

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite]The Sampradaya Sun openly supports the view that rightly-placed criticism is essential for preserving the integrity of Vaisnava culture. Opponents here deny it... [/quote]

And who is denying that? --------------
SS is a mix of good, meritorious criticism and unsubstantiated character asassinations. Some of its articles belong in the category of hallucinations, others are pure propaganda or posturing. -------- I never had much sympathy for the corrupt and utterly inept leadership of Iskcon over the years and I agree that these people should have been exposed and brought to justice long, long time ago. But it has to be based of fact, not fiction. Another problem, even more serious, is that Iskcon does not have a system of removing GBC members and temple presidents from power that is independent from GBC itself. Thus rank and file devotees can only pray that these people do the right thing. Iskcon is a mess because it is very poorly organized and based on the rule of a self chosen elite.

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite] SS is a mix of good, meritorious criticism and unsubstantiated character asassinations. Some of its articles belong in the category of hallucinations, others are pure propaganda or posturing.[/quote]

I would have thought this is also a good description of the Pariprashnena website.

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite][quote][cite]....Guru Maharaja and Abhaya Caranaravinda Prabhu were smiling and asking each other, '91Oh, what to do?'92 But when requested by so many godbrothers they decided, '91Later on we may publish the articles, but for now we should obey their orders.'92'94[/quote][/quote]

And this is also how SP treated the scandals in his own institution many years later: he definitely did not want all of the scandals broadcasted within Iskcon, let alone make a public spectacle of them. And there were many scandals in those years, arguably much worse than the Gaudiya Matha problems. Still, the important part is that IMPROPRIETY MUST BE ADDRESSED, not merely swept under the carpet... THAT IS THE KEY - solving the problems and removing the offenders. ----- Over the years GBC had the policy of quietly sweeping things under the carpet, and usually kept the offenders in power, unless they did something totally beligerent that they could not keep a lid on. If GBC actually dealt properly with the offenders over the years, keeping things quiet would have been a reasonable policy. But they did not. GBC is a Good Buddy Club, full of people who repeatedly disgraced themselves or have shown themselves to be grossly incompetent or negligent. And since this is a private club with lifetime membership, standing outside ANY other jurisdiction, Iskcon is in the sorry shape we can all see.

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite][quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite]The Sampradaya Sun openly supports the view that rightly-placed criticism is essential for preserving the integrity of Vaisnava culture. Opponents here deny it... [/quote]

And who is denying that? --------------
SS is a mix of good, meritorious criticism and unsubstantiated character asassinations. Some of its articles belong in the category of hallucinations, others are pure propaganda or posturing. -------- I never had much sympathy for the corrupt and utterly inept leadership of Iskcon over the years and I agree that these people should have been exposed and brought to justice long, long time ago. But it has to be based of fact, not fiction. Another problem, even more serious, is that Iskcon does not have a system of removing GBC members and temple presidents from power that is independent from GBC itself. Thus rank and file devotees can only pray that these people do the right thing. Iskcon is a mess because it is very poorly organized and based on the rule of a self chosen elite.[/quote]

I agree. At the very least, criticism should be truthful. One thing about the Sampradaya Sun though is that they seem quite willing to publish arguments from both sides of the issues. The difficulty is that ISKCON leaders rarely attempt to publicly respond to accusations. That is probably good strategy for maintaining their disciples blind following, but it doesnt help their credibility in the view of more objective devotees.

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite][quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite][quote][cite]....Guru Maharaja and Abhaya Caranaravinda Prabhu were smiling and asking each other, '91Oh, what to do?'92 But when requested by so many godbrothers they decided, '91Later on we may publish the articles, but for now we should obey their orders.'92'94[/quote][/quote]

And this is also how SP treated the scandals in his own institution many years later: he definitely did not want all of the scandals broadcasted within Iskcon, let alone make a public spectacle of them. And there were many scandals in those years, arguably much worse than the Gaudiya Matha problems. Still, the important part is that IMPROPRIETY MUST BE ADDRESSED, not merely swept under the carpet... THAT IS THE KEY - solving the problems and removing the offenders. ----- Over the years GBC had the policy of quietly sweeping things under the carpet, and usually kept the offenders in power, unless they did something totally beligerent that they could not keep a lid on. If GBC actually dealt properly with the offenders over the years, keeping things quiet would have been a reasonable policy. But they did not. GBC is a Good Buddy Club, full of people who repeatedly disgraced themselves or have shown themselves to be grossly incompetent or negligent. And since this is a private club with lifetime membership, standing outside ANY other jurisdiction, Iskcon is in the sorry shape we can all see.[/quote]

It seemed to me from the book quote I provided that Srila Prabhupada did want to broadcast the problems he was seeing then, but he stopped only because it was so upsetting to many godbrothers. It sounded to me like they stopped as a political consideration.[br][br]

One thing I think is important to note about the situation then was that it sounds like Srila Prabhupada was exposing rank-and-file devotees who were making a mockery of Vaisnava conduct. Mostly the criticism I see on the Sampradaya Sun is of gurus, who really need to be setting an ideal example.

Sorry paul howard ,but rather than just criticizing iskcon guru....you should attempt to stop being a blind follower as you suggest we are! However you are the sad blind follower ....you are unable to offer one sloka in support of your ritvik nonsense ...but you can blindly blaspheme my guru....hare krishna.

Actually contact sun sampradaya bhakta paul,..... i think you will fit in. hare krishna.

The same way you are insulting the hell out of Rocana because you think he is doing wrong ---- Rocana is exposing those who are misrepresenting his spiritual master. His exposing at least has scriptural and philsosophical merit whereas your childish attacks on Rocana are based on your emotional sentimentality. What you fail to understand is that Rocana and so many of us love ISKCON with all its faults but that doesnt mean we will tolerate the faults when they disgrace the legacy of our spiritual master. You are a childish and immature person and you need to stop plastering your foolishness all over this website. Change to decaf or pull the plug on your computer for a week or two or ten or a few years for that matter. You have a big mouth Mr. Sri Govinda Das and it needs to be quieted for your own good. Why dont you spend the next couple of days apologizing to Pandu for being such a horses ass and so insulting. That would be a better use of your time than all this insanity. But hey -- you give a foolish person good advice and they just get angry. So lets hear your angry reaction. The countdown begins.

Why would anyone be angry with Rocandas, he is what he is -- a former iskcon member who, as the majority of them, try to see faults where they are faults and not to see good things, in fear of being positive. It is so unfashionable to be positive for ex-members. It is not something you or I can change, it is up to him to work it out for himself and to learn how to see or show positive, before attacking or exposing negative (that all of us have). It takes time, and it does not matter who initiated you really, it is your own anartha nivritti that needs to kick in. If you know his bio, you will know that he is hardly a pure devotee. But we hope he will become.

Dear portnoy...please accept my humble obeisances,though you and i will infact disagree on most things....Let us see reality distinguished from reality for the benefit of all.In other words we are part of the most sublime culture where brahmanas can infact get together ,debate according to age old rules of engagement with sincerity,whit,sarcasam,sastra,common sense and hopefully some krishna conciousness content.
Why because though our personal motives,feelings and personal devotional perspectives,,,,can take a beating sometimes .....if we are genuine and our motives are also to please guru,sadhu and sastra we will make progressive spiritual advancement.

However if your own motives are perverted,self promoting,envious,mode of ignorance,anti iskcon,materially expert but lacking devotional sentiment...do you get the general impression potnoy prabhu...then you will probably get a philosophically hammering while i am around because too much nonsense it being paraded as genuine sastric evidence,what Prabhupada wanted actually.....and so on.So please try and accept the real brahaminical debating format and get the cobwebs of the books and spend more time sastrically defending your own opinion.Hare krishna....Afte all is it not the birth right of vaisnavism to take shelter of sadhu,sastra and guru.

"and not to see good things in fear of being positive." Thats a real gem, ccd.
You have qualified yourself to enter into the idiots hall of fame right next to your partner sri govinda das. I cant believe the two of you. Do you even think for a moment before your tongue starts wagging or your finger starts pecking at some keyboard?

Oh ... by the way sri govinda das .... since you know Srila Prabhupadas mood and message so well you must also know that Srila Prabhupada told us that hed rather that we stopped all expansion of temples and numbers of devotees living in them but rather "boil the milk." Do you know what that means? BOIL THE MILK. So stop with all your stats of how much ISKCON is expanding and thats the proof of this and that and blah blah blah blah yada yada yada yada. Ive already asked you to stop writing and speaking because you have no brain. What part of "no brain" dont you understand? Its plain and simple. Inside your head, for the time being and as you have amply shown by your stupidity, there exists no brain for understanding the subjects that you feel a burning desire to pontificate on. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that there is the seed of a brain existing inside your skull so it would be worth your while to water that seed and when that brain develops to the point that you learn to listen rather than spout then the seed of bhakti in your heart will also sprout. Its a wonderful process. Try it. Youll love it. So start at the beginning by being very very very quiet. Hush -- dont even utter a syllable. No more posting here or anywhere else. Oh -- see -- youre wanting to say something back to me and get the last word in. Okay -- go ahead but promise us all that it will be your LAST word and we wont have to put up with any more of your immaturity. Be a good boy now. Go chant some japa and read Sastra. Shhhhhh .. itll be alright in awhile. I promise you.
This goes for you too ccd with the hood over your head. Can you also give it a rest for a few months? You could use the time for other things that are much more positive and productive for yourself and everyone else. Take a vacation .. a sabbatical. See you both sometime in 2010. Lets meet right here in six months. Is that a deal? You get one more post as well ccd. Let it all hang out and then .... Shhhhhhhh.

Thus ends Portnoys Complaint.

Burning out the milk... great. When was the last time the SS editorial staff been on harinama together? This preaching is all about burning out the milk, but let us be positive, yoga-brastha is a chance to all devotees who put social interactions above the sadhana of chanting the holy names.

Why does ccd use the photo.pic of someone else? Is it to propel some kind of facade? Hope not!
Ysvt.

Nrsingha:No doubt SP supported AVP.
Nrsingha:
ccd- "Prabhupada VOTED for an acharya after the disappearance of BSST." SP.
So what was the motive for writting it?

Why did u fabricate that Prabhupada voted. Knowing full well that he did not. He may have supported not voted. Why r u trying to deceive in this way.
Ur attitude towards Srila Prabhupada is questionable and this is one reason devotees may have difficulties in spiritual lifes.
Isnt it?

Ysvt.

RU are accusing me of something dave... ? every single person who supported the Bagh Bazar acarya AV voted for him. What happens is that you only use one meaning of the word voted, I am sorry you have an issue with our Srila Prabhupada and think that just because he supported AVP you think that my attitude towards SP is questionable. He is the only reason I am practicing my spiritual life. You tend to post some fabrications three at a time and think it does not make you look foolish.

Look at the correspondence from Tirtha Maharaja when Srila Prabhupada wanted to take sannyas from him, he asked him to join thier math in April 1959.

'c7r'e9la Prabhup'e4da: I was working with my broken typewriter. I went to our T'e9rtha Mah'e4r'e4ja: "You give me a room and print my books. Give me some money. I will join you." I had thought, "This is Guru Mah'e4r'e4jas institution."

Some few years later Srila Prabhupada wrote to him from New York:

"I think for establishing Matha and temples here you may take the charge and I shall be able to make them self independent. There is difficulty of exchange and I think unless you have some special arrangement for starting a branch of Caitanya Math transfer of money will be difficult. But if you can do so with the help of the Bengal or Central Government, here is good chance to open immediately a centre in New York. I am negotiating with some brokers here who can give us a house and they have suggested like above. Without our own house it will not be possible to open our own centre. For me it will take long time but for you it is very easy. The Calcutta Marwaris are in your hand by the Grace of Srila Prabhupada."

Now that is the time when he would long give up a support to the AV (obviously as he left, got married and was gone) and expressed his support to the second person who who was a close associate of SBSST.

I am no problem with SP supporting his godbrothers in that way.

U still have not answered question;
Why did u fabricate that Prabhupada voted. Knowing full well that he did not vote. He may have supported not voted. Why did u embellish in that way.

Try and use full honesty. It is good for all of us.

Ysvt.

Dave you are not a person to talk about honesty. You attacked me 3 time within the last few hours accusing me of using someone elses photo (while you did not put up your ugly face up;-) here. I do have a language barrier. But I guess you vote with your south dublin fingers. Besides the other meaning I have already posted, to vote is to express ones preference for a candidate or for a measure or resolution; You can correct it if you want, I do not object to your vote;-)

\vote\ (?), v. i. [imp. & p. p. voted; p. pr. & vb. n. voting.] [cf. f. voter.] to express or signify the mind, will, or preference, either viva voce, or by ballot, or by other authorized means...

Trafficking is a strong word. But if you publish any form of aparadha - you traffic in it.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]Trafficking is a strong word. But if you publish any form of aparadha - you traffic in it.[/quote] Anyone can object to it?

No,I believe u knew what u were doing when u used the very decisive word vote.

It is a general impression which genuine devotees like Maal also pick up on. In other words some of ur approches towards Prabhupada r very questionable and in some ways possibly detrimental for those posessing of such. Isnt it?

A person can be ignorant, doubtful, confused and/or mistaken; but asking a question born of such deficiency, while at the same time openly suggesting, as an apparently forgone conclusion, that a much superior person, such as His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada, is "wrong", shows a grave lack of knowledge, intelligence and respect. Decency finds it intolerable.

tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya upadeksyanti te jnanam jnaninas tattva-darsinah BG 4:34

The above is Maal posting from another thread and is spot-on in regards to u ccd,imho.

U might be in trouble.

Ysvt.

>, as an apparently forgone conclusion, that a much superior person, such as His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada, is "wrong", shows a grave lack of knowledge,
> intelligence and respect. Decency finds it intolerable.

Who said he was wrong... except for you? You constantly find mistakes in others and if there are no mistakes you make your stories stick. How do you manage to look at yourself in the morning? (or maybe that is why you did not put your photo up?) My guess is you are reading too much sampradaya sin.

No ccd,it is like I said a general mood and impression that we r picking up on. Reading between the lines,what it in the ether,intuitive as well as experiencial. If it is true which I am pretty certain it is, u may be in denial to urself in this regard.

I think ur subtle attempts at striping Prabhupada of his Sakti-aveasa avatara status might be born from some kind of fear that it eclipses or somehow minimilises ur initiating Guru SDG. It is a general concensus even among Irish devotees that u might have some slight issues or something in regard to ur Guru and ur defensiveness. U seem to spent ur whole life at war with Prabhupada maximists. So is The adage Fanaticism is over compensated doubt relevant here.

Maybe U r been too complicated.

Hope this helps.

Ysvt.

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]No ccd,it is like I said a general mood and impression that we r picking up on.[/quote] You are imagining a lot Nrsimha and for someone like you I kind of expect it. Being sakti-avesa is not a status, in fact you are mistaken to even compare my initiating guru with Prabhupada, devotees of completely different scale and background. I am Prabhupada maximalist myself, but I find your (and some others) immature attitude or attempts to call him names like Acharya-avatara, Jagatguru etc. offensive to him. Just as I find attempts to make him a superhuman or some kind of god. I also find it offensive how you try to read between the lines and projecting your problems on others. Whatever mental problems you might have you should keep it private and not project, otherwise it is difficult to talk to you beyond your usual cut and paste.

Besides the point you are completely off the topic. We are discussing your favorite sampradaya sun, the one you said is like a gutter, but you are apparently is qualified to pick gold even from the gutter. Tell us how you do it.

Ccd-"You are imagining a lot Nrsimha and for someone like you I kind of expect it."

Ok,so maybe u dont care to admit it,not even to urself. Im I mistaken?

ccd "I am Prabhupada maximalist myself, but I find your (and some others) immature attitude or attempts to call him names like Acharya-avatara, offensive to him"

So, in this way r devotees like HH Gaur Govinda swami offensive when they use this term.

Cmon ccd,whats really going on? Why r u disturbed by these things?

Ysvt.

And why Nrsimha,all of a sudden?

Ive seen more offensiveness, aparadhas, insults and downright idiotic mud slinging (right down to referring to someones "ugly face") here on this website than I ever did at Sampradaya Sun. You guys have given new and deeper meaning to the words "age of quarrel and hypocrisy."

I didnt mean to interrupt all the hatred and finger pointing going on here. By all means --- carry on.

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]And why Nrsimha,all of a sudden?[/quote]Well Tribhuvanath approved it? It does not look like you will ever get an initiation, so you as well hang around with a nice name... [quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]
So, in this way r devotees like HH Gaur Govinda swami offensive when they use this term. .[/quote] I have to confess that I do not completely subscribe to the guru-tattva discourses of Srila Gour Govinda Swami, I hardly listen to him, but he never used it as a title to Srila Prabhupada. (He used it a generic sanskrit term). Jagad guru is a correct term for a guru, but it is soooo misused by fake impersonalist, that Prabhupada was adamant not to use it to himself. I want to see you call him face to face an avatara... I really want to see where you will end up. [br][br]
While I completely support the notion that (first suggested by BR Sridhara Swami) Prabhupada is saktiavesa. I try to be as personal as I can, and I would not use it. I resent using things towards him, that I know he will disapprove. He would certainly disapprove of many many articles of Sampradaya Sun. Very strongly. Now that is why I find it is not really serving Prabhupada, while I accept that they think they are.

[quote][cite] portnoy:[/cite]I didnt mean to interrupt all the hatred and finger pointing going on here. By all means --- carry on.[/quote] Nrsimha-dave is actually my buddy. Hmm... Hatred? If you know dave, you will know that it is impossible to hate him (even if he had an ugly face;-) -watch the smilies...

.ccd- I try to be as personal as I can, and I would not use it.

Sounds like u making an excuse or diversion. Is it? Is there ulterior reason for ur aversion. REMEMBER-Only those who r thoroughly Honest...

ccd -I resent using things towards him, that I know he will disapprove

How do u Know prabhu,pray tell?

Ysvt.

Ps- what is the real reason for the sudden diplomacy of devotional address Nrsimha. Please practice straighforwardness,enough of any crookedness. Isnt it?

Portnoy-Ive seen more offensiveness, aparadhas, insults and downright idiotic mud slinging (right down to referring to someones "ugly face") here on this website than I ever did at Sampradaya Sun. You guys have given new and deeper meaning to the words "age of quarrel and hypocrisy."

yes,good point Portnoy prabhu. Is it case of Kettles,pots,black??

Ysvt.

[quote][cite] Dave:[/cite]- what is the real reason for the sudden diplomacy of devotional address Nrsimha. Please practice straighforwardness,enough of any crookedness. Isnt it?[/quote] You keep projecting... get good rest, please. This topic of Sampradaya slump will not go away, take a break, we need you...

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]
ccd -I resent using things towards him, that I know he will disapprove
How do u Know prabhu,pray tell?
[/quote] It was a very serious issue. First time he expelled the four sannaysis (Visnujana, Gargamuni, Brahmananda and Subala Swamis) from ISKCON. He was so adamant about NOT being an avatar of Krsna that he forbade them to show up in any of our centres. Now how will you expel Rocan? You can not, he is not in;-)

Its ok,if u r a little afraid to address my points. Just say so. "Humility is crown jewel of Vaisnavas"

...........................................................................

Any Pure Devotee,MahaBhagavata by definition is Sakti-avesa avatar. We dont specifically need Sridar swami to tell us that. U should understand that ccd. Even there ur again making loaded statement and subtle insinuations with ur Sridar swami comment. U CANNOT HIDE UR ETHEREAL DECEPTIVE INTENTIONS FROM US! Let it be known!

Any chance to minimilise,isnt it ccd?

Ysvt.

Ccd-" was a very serious issue. First time he expelled the four sannaysis (Visnujana, Gargamuni, Brahmananda and Subala Swamis) from ISKCON. He was so adamant about NOT being an avatar of Krsna that he forbade them to show up in any of our centres."

NONSENSE CROOKEDNESS again. R U SO DISHONEST?

Now try again;

Ccd- I resent using things towards him, that I know he will disapprove

How do u Know prabhu,pray tell?

Gour-govinda swami term is Acarya-avatara but u would like to TWIST it into a term meaning direct avatar of Krsna so u built ur very PATHETIC strawman. Isnt it!

I would say I was disappointed in you,but by now it is a well estabhised pattern that is to be expected. Terrible!

We at times all need to reflect and review. Is that time now for u ccd? No offence but in very practical terms r u conscious enough to that and if not is it time to mold ones life in such a way in order to become so more and more. The clock is ticking...

Likewise unto myself.

Hope this helps.

God love us all! :-/

I think dave you got caught by the.. You see everyone mistaken except for yourself. That makes you very close to yourman Rocan... but it is obvious that he would have disapproved of being call an avatara. Ask Syamasundara, ask Malati (if you are in London now).

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]
Any Pure Devotee,MahaBhagavata by definition is Sakti-avesa avatar.[/quote] Again wrong. Where do you get it from....? Cheepers... Is that what Rocan say on Sampradaya sun that any pure devotee, MahaBhagavata by definition is a Sakti-avesa avatar? God save you dave...

ccd "pure devotee, MahaBhagavata by definition is a Sakti-avesa avatar?"

With all ur supposed book knowledge,u fail to understand this about the nature of Acarya specifically our Founder-Acarya. U r revealing a poor fund of knowlege in this regard,isnt it! Or Is it a case of U might not wanting it to true or something.

Ananda-Hari wrote;

"It is so easy these days to point and click and we can all become sadhus by using folio, however I still think it is the devotees who take the time to really study Srila Prabhupadas teachings who are the Sadhus and I feel they deserve respect even if they are not perfect."

Back to ur Karmi dave again. No offence but Is ur fickleness a measure of ur sincerity or lack thereof.

Ysvt.

Trinad api sunicena

I find many devotees would want to study books to be recognized and respected as sadhus, many would want to glorify Prabhupada, by calling him this or that only to be respected as his followers (bigger the praise better is the follower), but that is false, because if you want to please Prabhupada you give him kachoris not oversized pizzas. He has his preferences, and beside the point it, if you glorify someone too much -- it is an offence. Dont call him avatara or jagad-guru.

Yes study Prabhupadas books, that pleases him, not calling him acharya-avatara or jagad-guru. Study seriously, not as a show.

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]Back to ur Karmi dave again. No offence but Is ur fickleness a measure of ur sincerity or lack thereof.[/quote] Your personal attacks remind me of your teachers (SS) and not of the teacher you claim (HG TP).

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]Trafficking is a strong word. But if you publish any form of aparadha - you traffic in it.[/quote] Anyone can object to it?[/quote] After a bit of demon-stration, can anyone object to it? Obviously they do...

Ccd - I think dave you got caught by the.. You see everyone mistaken except for yourself.

Likewise unto urself,it seems.

This I AM THE KNOWER false mentality,beleive it or not is a common phenomina here in mundane samsaric world.

A feature common to all conditioned Jiva, Whether ourselve,urself or Rochan prabhu.

THIS IS THE DEMONIAC NATURE

The question to be asked is can u urself admit that priemeval MISTAKE and make admends with Krsna through Sri Guru.

As SP said All us people r the same so judge not least u.....

"it is never about us and them, but always about God and I"

"We have seen the Enemy and it is ourselves!"

Iskcon Founder-Acarya Eternal Resident Ki Jaya!

This is Vaisnava-Thakar!

Hare Krishna!

ccd:
After a bit of demon-stration, can anyone object to it? Obviously they do...

Is this standard lower or higher then ur alledged enemy Rochan prabhu at SS.

Not Kettles pot black,is it?

Why not sometimes refer to SP what he is Acarya-avatara? U want to deny it??
R u somehow ENVIOUS?

pure devotee, MahaBhagavata like our Founder-Acarya by definition is a Sakti-avesa avatar?". STUDY THE BOOKS WITH SOME INSIGHT THIS TIME. That is good for everyone.

As u know the insight will naturally awaken from the dos and dont of the whole sadhana program. Mould Our Lives NOW!

"NOW IS THE TIME OF SALVATION!" -New Testament.

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]ccd:
After a bit of demon-stration, can anyone object to it? Obviously they do...

Is this standard lower or higher then ur alledged enemy Rochan prabhu at SS.[/quote] Rocana is not an enemy. Come on. He is a soul just like everyone else, that has some conditioning (us included). The enemy is nama-aparadha, specifically sadhu-ninda. I do not think that saying something truthful about someone is bad, it is good, but the way you do it can be an aparadha (I hope you did not take my jokes personally, if you did, please forgive me, pizza and a footmassage, as usual, are on me). ysccd

Ps- I know for a fact that Tribhuvanath would not be a fan of ur mood in relation to how u speak to devotees here on-forum or ur mood in regards to Acarya-Thakar SP.

He had a lot of love for Srila Prabhupada. Do u?

Hope all this helps.

Ysvt,
Bk Nrsingha ( HGTP ).

Gouranga!

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]
He had a lot of love for Srila Prabhupada. Do u?
Bk Nrsingha ( HGTP ).

Gouranga![/quote]
I agree with you. Compared with HG Tribhuvanatha Prabhu, I have no love to Prabhupada. I am just a sadhaka, who has no good qualities, besides what is given to me by Prabhupada and his cella.

Prabhupada and his cella

cella???

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]Prabhupada and his cella

cella???[/quote] Sorry again, it is cela not cella. You are very good, you keep me humble prabhu.

Talking about cela (not cella):

How simple it is, the qualification of cela and qualification of guru. As soon as Arjuna accepted Krsna as his guru, He immediately gave him a slap: asocyan anvasocas tvam prajna-vadams ca bhasase [Bg. 2.11]. "You are talking like very learned man. You are fool number one."

SP March 23, 1974

Ok,we might be able to forgive each other and tolerate our polar opposites...

Did u say Pizza and carob ice cream and small direct debit towards sun holidays??

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite] sun holidays??[/quote] Not sampradaya sun I hope!!!

Lets hope not!!

Just for the record. ;-)

The true acarya, the spiritual master of the entire world, MUST be considered an incarnation of Krsnas mercy. Indeed, he is personally embracing Krsna.This is paramahamsa-thakar. -BSST.

???? thakar.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]???? thakar.[/quote] Thakar means a letter or a sound. You meant thakur?

dvapariyair janair visnuh pancaratrais tu kevalaih
kalau tu nama-matrena pujyate bhagavan harih

"In the Dvapara-yuga one could satisfy Krsna or Visnu only by worshiping opulently according to the pancaratriki system, but in the Age of Kali one can satisfy and worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead Hari simply by chanting His holy name." Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura explains that unless one is directly empowered by the causeless mercy of Krsna, one cannot become the spiritual master of the entire world (jagad-guru). One cannot become an acarya simply by mental speculation. The true acarya presents Krsna to everyone by preaching the holy name of the Lord throughout the world. Thus the conditioned souls, purified by chanting the holy name, are liberated from the blazing fire of material existence. In this way, spiritual benefit grows increasingly full, like the waxing moon in the sky. The true acarya, the spiritual master of the entire world, must be considered an incarnation of Krsnas mercy. Indeed, he is personally embracing Krsna. He is therefore the spiritual master of all the varnas (brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya and sudra) and all the asramas (brahmacarya, grhastha, vanaprastha and sannyasa). Since he is understood to be the most advanced devotee, he is called paramahamsa-thakura. Thakura is a title of honor offered to the paramahamsa.
(sometimes it is good to look up...)

Yes sometimes.

How simple it is, the qualification of cela and qualification of guru.
Yes,this is how I see it too. SP is the perfect master and HG Tribhuvanath is the perfect sisya.And I have to come to the point of full dependence on what is given to me by Prabhupada and his cela.

Not a formal thing. Simple for the simple. I am still too complicated too really appreciated our Guruh. Getting there,we hope!

Ohe Vaisnava Thakur!

This is bhakti-yoga.

Krsna has plan for everyone. We just have to surrender to it!