Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

Srila Jiva Gosvami gives a definition of Diksa in Bhakti-sandarbha

divyauc0u109 u769 j'f1u257 nau109 u769 yato dadyu257 t kuryu257 t pu257 pasya sau324 ksu803 ayam
tasmu257 t du299 ksu803 eti su257 proktu257 deu347 ikais tattva-kovidaihu803

"Diksu803 a is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksu803 a."

The Bhakti-sandarbha gives the following quotation from the Tattva-su257 gara:

yathu257 ku257 'f1canatu257 u109 u769 yu257 ti ku257 u109 u769 syau109 u769 rasa-vidhu257 natahu803
tathu257 du299 ksu803 u257 -vidhu257 nena dvijatvau109 u769 ju257 yate nru803 nu803 u257 m

"By chemical manipulation, bell metal is turned into gold when touched by mercury; similarly, when a person is properly initiated, he can acquire the qualities of a bru257 hmanu803 a."

According to Jiva Gosvami, karmas or reactions of sinful activities are vanquished because of awakening of transcendental knowledge.Stress is given on transcendental knowledge and the qualities, there is no mention of any such thing that Chitragupta transfers ones sinful activities into his or her Gurus account at the time of diksha. Maybe I am wrong but I have not seen any such statement yet.

[quote][cite] dweller-in-peace:[/cite]

yathuc0u257 ku257 'f1canatu257 u7743 yu257 ti ku257 u7743 syau7743 rasa-vidhu257 natau7717 [br]
tathu257 du299 ku7779 u257 -vidhu257 nena dvijatvau7743 ju257 yate nu7771 u7751 u257 m[br][br]

"By chemical manipulation, bell metal is turned into gold when touched by mercury; similarly, when a person is properly initiated, he can acquire the qualities of a bru257 hmau7751 a."[br][br]

According to Jiva Gosvami, karmas or reactions of sinful activities are vanquished because of awakening of transcendental knowledge.[/quote]

This was the verse given to devotees during the first brahmana initiation in Boston. I guess we should ask them how it felt at the time. Those of us who did not get it, will not get it.

> there is no mention of any such thing that Chitragupta transfers ones sinful activities into his or her Gurus account at the time of diksha. Maybe I am wrong but I have not seen any such statement yet.

rAjNi cAmAtyajA doSAH
patnI-pApaM sva-bhartari
tathA ZiSyArjitaM pApaM
guruH prApnoti niZcitam

"The faults of a counselor fall on his king, and the sins of a wife fall on her husband. In the same way a spiritual master attains the sins of his disciple. That is certain." HBV 1.77, quote from SAra SaNgraha (continued from 1.76)

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]> there is no mention of any such thing that Chitragupta transfers ones sinful activities into his or her Gurus account at the time of diksha. Maybe I am wrong but I have not seen any such statement yet.

rAjNi cAmAtyajA doSAH
patnI-pApaM sva-bhartari
tathA ZiSyArjitaM pApaM
guruH prApnoti niZcitam

"The faults of a counselor fall on his king, and the sins of a wife fall on her husband. In the same way a spiritual master attains the sins of his disciple. That is certain." HBV 1.77, quote from SAra SaNgraha (continued from 1.76)[/quote]

This actually refers to the sins AFTER initiation.

duc0u299 ku7779 u257 -ku257 le bhakta kare u257 tma-samarpau7751 a
sei-ku257 le ku7771 u7779 u7751 a tu257 re kare u257 tma-sama

'93At the time of initiation, when a devotee fully surrenders unto the service of the Lord, Ku7771 u7779 u7751 a accepts him to be as good as Himself.

sei deha kare tu257 ra cid-u257 nanda-maya
apru257 ku7771 ta-dehe tu257 u7749 ra carau7751 a bhajaya

'93When the devotee'92s body is thus transformed into spiritual existence, the devotee, in that transcendental body, renders service to the lotus feet of the Lord.

Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura comments on these CC verses in his Anubhu257 u7779 ya commentary: '93At the time of initiation, the devotee gives up material conceptions and starts to think in terms of sambandha-j'f1u257 na or his eternal relationship with Krishna and His family. As soon as he has this supramundane or spiritual knowledge, he becomes eligible to serve the Lord in a similarly spiritual identity. As soon as the surrendered devotee is free from the shelter of Maya, Krishna adopts him and makes him His own. At this stage, the devotee'92s delusion as enjoyer of material pleasures dissipates, and his real self merges with his new identity an eternal servant of Krishna. The devotee attains his spiritual body (sac-cid-u257 nanda-svaru363 pa) and his eternal service to Krishna, serving Him in his own transcendental form. The pure devotee'92s ecstatic service is an elevated stage of devotion that is often misinterpreted and misunderstood by those unacquainted with the science of devotion. For this kind of aparadha one is deprived of the shelter of a Vaishnava guru.'94
(Anubhu257 u7779 ya, CC, Antya 4.193)

> This actually refers to the sins AFTER initiation.

Where is it stated? Thanks in advance.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]> This actually refers to the sins AFTER initiation.

Where is it stated? Thanks in advance.[/quote]

This verse refers to the shared karma of those who are bound by a relationship of responsibility - the king has partial responsibility for the sins of his counselors or ministers (as well as his subjects) because king is in charge of these subjects. The same relationship applies to husband and wife, as well as guru and his disciples. Power and authority always means responsibility. A guru can not escape responsibility for the actions of his disciples.

Basically word tathA is the key. The sloka means, "just as a husband to the wife or a minister to the king, tathA in exactly the same way, guru takes sins of the disciple. Here it does not refer to an initiation, in fact it is any teacher to any student. Of course one can have a look at arjitam...

ruc0u257 j'f1i'97on the king; ca'97and; amu257 tyaju257 '97from the ministers; dou7779 u257 u7717 '97faults; patnu299 -pu257 pam'97the sins of the wife; sva-bhartari'97on her husband; tathu257 '97so; u347 iu7779 ya'97by the disciple; arjitam'97earned; pu257 pam'97sin; guruu7717 '97the spiritual master; pru257 pnoti'97attains; niu347 citam'97indeed.

That is one of the reasons why taking on disciples is not encouraged, especially taking a lot of disciples who are deeply conditioned.

As per Vs 4.1.13-15 Vidya burns all current and stored karma with exception of manifested one (prarabdha) so theres no need for the guru to take any reactions of the disciple who attained Vidya (actual diksa). So it seems to me that taking reactions by the guru refers to the time of a formal acceptance of the guru, before manifestation of Vidya. Or?

Regarding reactions suffered by the guru: talk with Bob Cohen Feb 27-29 1972 Mayapur

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]As per Vs 4.1.13-15 Vidya burns all current and stored karma with exception of manifested one (prarabdha) so theres no need for the guru to take any reactions of the disciple who attained Vidya (actual diksa). So it seems to me that taking reactions by the guru refers to the time of a formal acceptance of the guru, before manifestation of Vidya. [/quote]

Because the verse in question appears in HBV it must be seen as applicable to Vaishnava gurus as well. Most people attain Vidya (which burns their stored up karma) very gradually, so there is plenty of time for them to do all kinds of nonsense after initiation. We have all seen it happen right before our eyes.

With authority always comes responsibility.

Is there anything that happens at first initiation? I thought there was supposed to be some relief from the burden of past karma then, clearing the way to devotional service.

I hoped it would help me with chanting, following the regs (which of course I was already doing, but with constant pull of maya), or something; but actually I didnt notice anything then, and in fact following became more difficult.

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite]Is there anything that happens at first initiation? [/quote]

First initiation (hari nama initiation) is a somewhat peculiar case... It was introduced first by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta to the GV tradition, and consisted of receiving japa mala and a spiritual name. Prior to that initiation a prospective disciple would not chant on beads. This is the system still followed in most Gaudiya Matha institutions. Initially Srila Prabhupada also followed that system (read about the first two initiations in Lilamrita) but later changed it and devotees started chanting on the beads prior to initiation as a condition to be initiated. --------------

What happens at the time of first initiation mostly depends on the individual. I did feel very much purified and enthused to carry on with the process.

At first initiation you just receive the mantra (nama or a shadow of the nama as the case may be, it depends on the disciple).