Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

Suhotra Swami mentions one case in kartabhaja apasampradaya: http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/library/Apasamp.zip
Nothing in any genuine Vaisnava or any other Vedic sampradayas though.
Suggested in Gaudiya Math after BSST tirobhava, rejected after about five minutes.

>Suhotra Swami mentions one case in kartabhaja apasampradaya: http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/library/Apasamp.zip

Easy to criticize ritviks but hard to follow sanyasa. There are many ritviks who are serious devotees so could it be because of this criticism. One need to be careful.

Yes. In Iskcon, Srila Prabhupada used the rtvik system to conduct initiations. After he left his body the rtvik initiation system was discontinued.

suparna: Its no criticism of ritviks. It simply shows this idea is avaidika. No logical connection with sannyasa here.
How can be a person a serious devotee, if he doesnt seriously study siddhanta? Serious sadhana is not all in all, rather its easily undercut by aparadha and following of apasiddhanta.

[quote][cite] suparna:[/cite]>Suhotra Swami mentions one case in kartabhaja apasampradaya: http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/library/Apasamp.zip

Easy to criticize ritviks but hard to follow sanyasa. There are many ritviks who are serious devotees so could it be because of this criticism. One need to be careful.[/quote] Why do you need to be sannyasi anyway? What a bogus idea that to be an advanced devotee one needs to be a sannyasi.

[quote][cite] deena:[/cite]Yes. In Iskcon, Srila Prabhupada used the rtvik system to conduct initiations. After he left his body the rtvik initiation system was discontinued.[/quote] Actually he used it for years from 1971 or even before without calling it ritivik. While Bon Maharaj was giving initiations when Sarasvati Thakura was on the planet as well.

IMO instead of concentrating on the word ritvik (which did not originate from Srila Prabhupada), devotees should concentrate on the phrase officiating acharya which was his exact choice of words.

In the common sense of this word, to officiate simply means to perform a function, to act as, to hold the office of. In other words these devotees chosen by Srila Prabhupada were to hold the office of acharya within Iskcon, to perform the function of an institutional acharya. IMO it all goes back to the historical setup of the Gaudiya Math after Srila Bhaktisiddhantas passing, where several senior sannyasis were functioning as the acharyas within one institution, as opposed to the more traditional setup where religious institution just has one acharya. Multi acharya institutions are relatively common among the Madhvas and Sri Vaishnavas, especially in larger centers.

Sorry but put in another way has any gaudiya guru initiated .....Or any of the three other Vaisnava Sampradayas initiated direct Rupa Goswami Prabhupada Disciples or Direct disciples of Radharani.....Or even direct disciples of sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu...Direct disciples of Sri Nityananda prabhu.....Even direct disciples of sri Krishna himself.....by orthodox not apa-sampradaya lines please .This would infact be a justification for ritvik claims.....would it not!
In other words there should be a large group of direct disciples all having an intimate direct relationship with there guru,so we would havedirect disciples of srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati Prabhupada everywhere....direct disciples of radharani every where.Direct disciples of Narada muni everywhere........These would be the valid symptoms of such a vaisnava system.....would it not.....Prabhus.

So kula-pavanna prabhu which senior sannyasis took this opportunity to initiate direct disciples of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.......or Direct Radharani disciples...or Direct Srila Rupa goswami Prabhupada disciples or Krishna himself.....how about Srila Narrotama das takura .....this would validify the ritvik claimsBecause they have not personally accepted the follower....how would this be acheived since Srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati Prabhupada deemed it to be essential that guru and disciple meet and accept each other.....Where is the historical record of hundreds of Srila Rupa goswami disciples within the gaudiya matha being initiated by such sanyasis, or any other Radharani direct disciples ...prabhu.Can anyone show such a thing within the gaudiya line or a bonifide disciplic succession?....

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]So kula-pavanna prabhu which senior sannyasis took this opportunity to initiate direct disciples of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu..[/quote]

The system of initiations Srila Prabhupada used for several years prior to his departure was a PROXY initiation, where one person is authorized to act in the name of another. The word ritvik was never used in the Vedic literatures or Vaishnava writings to denote proxy initiations. And the idea of proxy initiations carried forward after the departure of the authorizing guru is not at all based on scriptures or tradition.

Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu did not initiate any disciples and He certainly did not make Himself a diksa guru for the next 10,000 years.

Thank you Kula-pavanna prabhu,but iam trying to find sastric history,which has a similarity to what is envisaged by the IRM website ...where no personal acceptance happened by the guru.Yes prabhu i agree that the idea of proxy initiations carried forward after the departure of the guru seems a myth ,but that is what this challenge is to those propounding such ideas in reality! Thank you prabhu....

Yes deena and borokrishna das,You are right many direct disciples were initiated by this system ....while srila Prabhupada was indeed personally present.Madhudwisa swami gave mantra to many direct disciples of srila Prabhupada after 1971 actually..However their was a personal acceptance of these devotees by srila Prabhupada.I am trying to find where it is sanctioned to just use the guru like a door mat...without his personal consent like what the ritviks propound....can you give us any examples please?Also since Srila Rupa goswami Prabhupada was infact the sampradaya archarya and a direct disciple of the supreme lord....why stop at our Srila Prabhupada why not take him....he is actually the fully empowered Sampraday archarya ...Which the whole Gaudiya line accepts his sublime authority....unfortunately many gaudiya godbrothers fail to appreciate our Srila Prabhupada...

Where is the Ritvik Archarya line deena and borokrishna das?

Borokrishna das the gaudiya matha standard is to be a real preacher......one ideally renounces his troublesome material situation.Yes this includes women ,children and all other secondry engagments...Though you regard this as bogus!....it was infact the standard for those intent on sincerely being fully surrendered.This what was suggested to our archarya Srila PRABHUPADA to enable him to be taken seriously by other renunciates.This sanyasis mentality was instituted by his nrsingha guru.....previously it was accepted that one would take babaji initiation...after household existence..There was an absence of a sanyasis ashram ....because this was intended for preaching to the less fortunate.How this was indeed encouraged by srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati takura to give status to such preachers,while also making guru by the score to lead society in general..

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]I am trying to find where it is sanctioned to just use the guru like a door mat...without his personal consent like what the ritviks propound....can you give us any examples please?[/quote]Srila Prabhupada deputed rtviks to give consent on his behalf in the July 9 letter.[Br][br][quote][cite]July 9, 1977 letter:[/cite]In the past Temple Presidents have written to Srila Prabhupada recommending a particular devotees initiation. Now that Srila Prabhupada has named these representatives, Temple Presidents may henceforward send recommendation for first and second initiation to whichever of these eleven representatives are nearest their temple. After considering the recommendation, these representatives may accept the devotee as an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada by giving a spiritual name, or in the case of second initiation, by chanting on the Gayatri thread, just as Srila Prabhupada has done. The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad, the above eleven senior devotees acting as His representative. [/quote]

So Pandu das .....This is the only example from the history of Gaudiya Vaisnavaism which you can find of a supposed ritvik branch being started....?Please tell us there is more examples......! One letter taken completely out of Vaisnava context! My guru wrote it and typed it under his gurus instructions .....and you know better than him!
Please show us more sastric evidence please....one letter is that all you and your team have ,and for this many ritviks want to destroy the chain of Disciplic succession......You honestly must have more Prabhu.....Even a sloka out of bhagavad gita?Can anyone please show us a sloka out of bhagavad gita where the guru is allowed to change the authorised process of disciplic succession....to and no more gurus ..........ritvik long distance and your guru never meets you.....and you never get chastised or loved ....shown the error of your ways.Because he personally never even knows you!And you never even know him!

Evam parampara praptam imam rajarsayo viduh,sa kaleneha mahata yogo nastah parantapa...Bhagavad gita as it is....Chapter 4 verse 2....This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession,and the kings understood it in that way.....

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]So Pandu das .....This is the only example from the history of Gaudiya Vaisnavaism which you can find of a supposed ritvik branch being started....?Please tell us there is more examples......![/quote]

Srila Prabhupadas written order is not good enough for you? [br][br]

[quote]One letter taken completely out of Vaisnava context! My guru wrote it and typed it under his gurus instructions .....and you know better than him![/quote]

As I told you, TKG confessed to cheating to become a zonal acarya, and then in that position he grossly abused his power. I dont trust him.[br][br]

[quote]Please show us more sastric evidence please....one letter is that all you and your team have[/quote]

That letter was an order sent to all the ISKCON leaders, and was a follow-up to a direct question for how Srila Prabhupada wanted initiations to be conducted after his disappearance. He then sent three more letters to rtviks telling them to do the rtvik thing, and theres another statement in the Vedabase wherein he tells TKG to continue to become rtvik. There is also evidence in Srila Prabhupadas will, etc. Really, its a waste of time going over this with you again. Srila Prabhupada had a system established that would allow for him to give initiations assisted by rtviks after his disappearance, and it was terminated without his authorization. The GBC has been trying to figure out how to make something work ever since, and they still havent got it.[br][br]

[quote] ,and for this many ritviks want to destroy the chain of Disciplic succession [/quote]

But you dont think having bogus sannyasis hanging out in shorts (or less) with ladies, no tilak or brahman thread, no sikha, no danda, etc., preaching that Srila Prabhupada has been proven wrong by modern social science, etc... (and thats just one guy out of many who have made ISKCON look ridiculous), thats not destroying the disciplic succession. [br][br]

[quote]......You honestly must have more Prabhu.....Even a sloka out of bhagavad gita?Can anyone please show us a sloka out of bhagavad gita where the guru is allowed to change the authorised process of disciplic succession....to and no more gurus ..........ritvik long distance and your guru never meets you.....and you never get chastised or loved ....shown the error of your ways.Because he personally never even knows you!And you never even know him![/quote]

How do you know what the Founder-Acarya is able to do or not to do for the sake of keeping Vaisnava siddhanta intact? From your independent study? Why must you reject Srila Prabhupadas order and look elsewhere to speculate on what he wanted? Obviously Srila Prabhupada did not consider it essential to meet every one of his disciples, either before initiation or after, because he initiated many disciples whom he never met, exchanged letters, saw, or spoke with. Who are you to impose additional requirements, as if Srila Prabhupada cannot relate to devotees he has not physically met? [br][br]
You dont think I can open one of Srila Prabhupadas books and feel praised or chastised when seeing what is written there? I have much more of a relationship with him than with the devotee who did my initiation ceremony. I have been chanting Hare Krishna for nearly fifteen years because of Srila Prabhupada. How dare you dismiss his personal influence in my life?!!

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]suparna: Its no criticism of ritviks. It simply shows this idea is avaidika. No logical connection with sannyasa here.
How can be a person a serious devotee, if he doesnt seriously study siddhanta? Serious sadhana is not all in all, rather its easily undercut by aparadha and following of apasiddhanta.[/quote]

How many times are you going to repeat the word "apasiddhanta" without proof, as if saying it again and again will somehow make it true?

Since you are unable to quote sastra pandu das,from any of the bhakti literatures which include the immense literatures written by Srila Rupa goswami Prabhupada and the six goswamis of vrindavana,krishna das kaviraja maharaja,baladeva vidyabushana,Narrotama das takura and visvanath chakravati takura....to name just a few....your view though valid to yourself is in fact apa-sampradaya.It is simply modes of material nature.....maya.
Srila Prabhupada always quoted bhagavad gita.....disciplic succession ...evam parapraptam......he wrote many purports in bhagavad gita about this topic please read if you want to follow his teachings......please go back to bhakta school ..

My word is apa- sampradaya....it means that you are attempting to destroy our teachings..Against the conclusion of srila Prabhupada....just maya....Which since you cannot quote any thing means you have been defeated.

So we have another sastric quote to help..chapter 2 verse 41.......vyavasayatmika buddhir ekeha kuru-nandana,bahu-sakha hy anantas ca,buddhayo vyavasayinam.Those who are on this path are resolute in purpose,and their aim is one.o beloved child of kurus,the entelligence of those who are irresolute is many branched.....the third paragraph reads....

Service in Krsna consciousness is, however, best practiced under the able guidance of a spiritual master who is a bona fide representative of Krsna, who knows the nature of the student and who can guide him to act in Krsna consciousness. As such, to be well-versed in Krsna consciousness one has to act firmly and obey the representative of Krsna, and one should accept the instruction of the bona fide spiritual master as ones mission in life.,,,,

Here srila Prabhupada is mentioning the personal side of accepting a spiritual master.....He knows the nature of his student....and is able to guide as a result.Then as a result of the disciple being well versed......that is the personal qualification of the disciple....he obeys and puts his intructions into practice....After this the disciple having pleased his guru,is personally is enlivened...as a result he accepts the order of the guru as his life and soul.....How can you do this with neophytes who have no personal guru present....

Simply impossible for 99% of devotees....personal guru is the best....as stated above.

Paul: As long as you continue to recycle your old arguments, unrelated to this thread. Since were not kartabhajas (guru as the only pramana), you have nothing in your hands. I dont think you can admit it though.

> You dont think I can open one of Srila Prabhupadas books and feel praised or chastised when seeing what is written there? I have much more of a relationship with him than with the devotee who did my initiation ceremony. I have been chanting Hare Krishna for nearly fifteen years because of Srila Prabhupada. How dare you dismiss his personal influence in my life?!!

Great. But dont call yourself his diksa disciple.

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite][quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]suparna: Its no criticism of ritviks. It simply shows this idea is avaidika. No logical connection with sannyasa here.
How can be a person a serious devotee, if he doesnt seriously study siddhanta? Serious sadhana is not all in all, rather its easily undercut by aparadha and following of apasiddhanta.[/quote]

How many times are you going to repeat the word "apasiddhanta" without proof, as if saying it again and again will somehow make it true?[/quote] It can not make it true, or not true. Repetition is not a proof. It is simply that, no proof by sastric sabdha, no proof by logic, no proof even by tradition, as nobody can demonstrate post samadhi ritivk system anywhere in our tradition. [br]
[br]
Now can Srila Prabhupada do something that completely contradicts all the above? Of course he can. But he would have put in his books, he would have explained it personally and discussed it with disciples in details. He would have not left a single doubt in the minds of the disciples and would write specific personal letters to his disciples who are to do that service.[br][br]

Now the explanation of kula-pavana of institutionaly bound "officiating acharyas" is an acceptable explanation. It is along the lines of what Prabhupada always wanted, not acharyas with his or her own maths.

VEDA: Great. But dont call yourself his diksa disciple.

Sounds like Srila Prabhupadas diksa disciples are Jati Gosains. All others are inferior, only they are superiors because they lived in those days when Srila Prabhupada was preaching.

suparna: Who talks about superiority/inferiority of diksa/siksa? This is completely besides the point.

Some devotees here are presenting arguments that would reject the July 9 letter entirely, even during Srila Prabhupadas manifest pastimes. Can anyone show sastric support for a guru initiating disciples whom he never met, would never meet, while they were on different continents?

Ive read that sastra prohibits sannyasis from travelling on vehicles, but that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada overruled that for the sake of spreading Krishna consciousness. Why is that allowed but Srila Prabhupadas May 28/July 9 order to conduct tirobhava initiations aided by rtviks not allowed?

Its also stated in CC (Adi Lila, final chapter) that Lord Caitanya said sastra prohibits sannyasa in Kali Yuga; and Srila Prabhupada even ordered in 1977 that there were to be no more sannyasis. It certainly seems that sastric injunctions can be suspended or overruled based on higher principles. Now, though, sannyasa is being granted contrary to both sastra and Srila Prabhupadas order. Oh well.

Obviously it would be nice if I could hold a conversation with Srila Prabhupada face to face, but I dont see how my situation is any less than a devotee who got initiated by him via rtvik in September 1977 and who never met Srila Prabhupada or even saw him in person. Now even I have the benefit of more than a thousand hours of his audio recordings, the Vedabase, etc.

Since Srila Prabhupada already had the rtvik system in place (again, wheres the sastric support for it functioning then?) where is the sastric proof for terminating it without his authorization and contrary to his "Officiating Acarya... Rtvik. Yes." respnse on May 28? What is the practical disadvantage between someone being initiated by him now compared to being initiated in September 1977?

>Srila Prabhupada even ordered in 1977 that there were to be no more sannyasis...

Can you produce an order letter to devotees or GBC or to any aspiring sannyasi to this effect? (everything else we heard before and it is not what he said, it it how you (30 years on) try to interpret it based of TKGs use of words)

In Bengali there is a sayingIf you can waik on your hands,do it,but whatever you do change.Srila Prabhupada told this to illustrate his dislike for whimsical changes.He was especially anxious after his departure his followers might take a free hand with his booksor with diety worship and make unnecessary ,unauthorised changes.....i personally find this is the situation with posthumous ritvik .....since a 15 year devotee like bhakta paul Howard .....previously pandu das...is unable to quote one sloka from the bhakti sastras......speculation only.....what do other devotees think please...

The July 9 letter is to allow for a natural transition period to occur....because it is not the proper etiquette to initiate in front of your own guru....Then for the gurus and other godbrothers to initiate unlimitedly after his disappearance.....according to the Iskcon gbc and accepted vaisnava culture...simple ...Such things are axiomatic if you have been trained up in bhakta classes.....then classes every day in the Brahmacari ashram...Nectar of devotion classes most nights from senior Prabhupada disciples...Self-evident.

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite]What is the practical disadvantage between someone being initiated by him now compared to being initiated in September 1977?[/quote]

The disadvantage is that you cant walk up to him and ask: "Srila Prabhupada... what did you mean when you said officiating acharya?" and hear HIS explanation that removes all your doubts.

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]In Bengali there is a sayingIf you can waik on your hands,do it,but whatever you do change.Srila Prabhupada told this to illustrate his dislike for whimsical changes.He was especially anxious after his departure his followers might take a free hand with his booksor with diety worship and make unnecessary ,unauthorised changes.....i personally find this is the situation with posthumous ritvik .....since a 15 year devotee like bhakta paul Howard .....previously pandu das...is unable to quote one sloka from the bhakti sastras......speculation only.....what do other devotees think please...[/quote]

"Unnecessary and unauthorized changes." Funny how stopping the rtvik-assisted initiation system immediately comes to mind. You talk about "unable to quote one sloka" but your hypocrisy is astonishing as you have yet to quote one sloka showing that it was necessary to stop the rtvik-assisted system that Srila Prabhupada ordered and did not authorize changing.

Basically Howard says there is no instaces of it in tradition (and to change the tradition Srila Prabhupada asked TKG to write a letter...) -- but the answer to the question is still -- no. Now let us examine lies that Pandu puts up to support it this speculation.

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite][quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite]What is the practical disadvantage between someone being initiated by him now compared to being initiated in September 1977?[/quote]

The disadvantage is that you cant walk up to him and ask: "Srila Prabhupada... what did you mean when you said officiating acharya?" and hear HIS explanation that removes all your doubts.[/quote]

Theres a conversation on Oct. 18, 1977, about a man who wanted to be initiated by Srila Prabhupada, and Srila Prabhupada reponded by saying he already deputed men handle all that. That aspiring disciple could not see Srila Prabhupada either.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]Basically Howard says there is no instaces of it in tradition (and to change the tradition Srila Prabhupada asked TKG to write a letter...) -- but the answer to the question is still -- no. Now let us examine lies that Pandu puts up to support it this speculation.[/quote]

Youre calling me a liar?

ccd: Now let us examine lies that Pandu puts up to support it this speculation.

You can have a very intimate and personal relationship with Prabhupada over the years and be even more connected to him then when you had a direct contact. In a way service in separation is more direct then service in direct interaction. It is this longing that makes one a direct disciple, not initiation, that is a formality. Visvanatha Cakravarti is a direct disciple of Narottama das Thakura Mahasaya, but there are a few generations of gurus (diksa) between them.

So will you call Visvanatha Cakravarti a liar?

Out of context...dweller in peace...Bhakta .Paul howard.....aka pandu das is not Visvanath Chakravati takura....Did he,Visvanatha Chakravati reject his guru...No...Is he a follower of posthumous ritvik...no.....presently bhakta paul is not even initiated and is unable to see vedic knowledge within the natural context of the mercy of guru....He refuses to quote any sastra to back up his flimsy stance.....

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite][quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite][quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite]What is the practical disadvantage between someone being initiated by him now compared to being initiated in September 1977?[/quote]

The disadvantage is that you cant walk up to him and ask: "Srila Prabhupada... what did you mean when you said officiating acharya?" and hear HIS explanation that removes all your doubts.[/quote]

Theres a conversation on Oct. 18, 1977, about a man who wanted to be initiated by Srila Prabhupada, and Srila Prabhupada reponded by saying he already deputed men handle all that. That aspiring disciple could not see Srila Prabhupada either.[/quote]

It may come to you as a shock, but the guru HAS A RESPONSIBILITY for training his disciples. Shastra says that no one should become a guru unless they can properly train their disciples. Writing a book is not training a disciple. It helps, but it is not enough. If it was enough we would have all been disciples of Srila Vyasadeva.

[quote][cite] dweller-in-peace:[/cite]ccd: Now let us examine lies that Pandu puts up to support it this speculation.

You can have a very intimate and personal relationship with Prabhupada over the years and be even more connected to him then when you had a direct contact. In a way service in separation is more direct then service in direct interaction. It is this longing that makes one a direct disciple, not initiation, that is a formality. Visvanatha Cakravarti is a direct disciple of Narottama das Thakura Mahasaya, but there are a few generations of gurus (diksa) between them.

So will you call Visvanatha Cakravarti a liar?[/quote] You will lie if you claim that he received his mantra diksa from Narottama das Thakura, he was initiated by Radha ramana Cakravarti (an he wrote poetry dedicated to him as well, and all his dedications contain all the names of his gurus that were part of his line). Now to say that his principal guru and parampara acharya is Narottama Thakura is perfectly fine. And yes Pandu did not even get a diksa mantra from his guru.

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]Basically Howard says there is no instaces of it in tradition (and to change the tradition Srila Prabhupada asked TKG to write a letter...) -- but the answer to the question is still -- no. Now let us examine lies that Pandu puts up to support it this speculation.[/quote]

Youre calling me a liar?[/quote] You lied to the person who initiated you that he is your guru, it was your responsibility to see if he is or not. Now you present your interpretation as the words of Prabhupada and you claim that Prabhupada ordered that nobody takes ever sannyasa (you do not have anything in writing from him to this effect). All of it is not satyam.

Jaya dweller-in-peace! U win first prize!

GAURANGA!

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]Basically Howard says there is no instaces of it in tradition (and to change the tradition Srila Prabhupada asked TKG to write a letter...) -- but the answer to the question is still -- no. Now let us examine lies that Pandu puts up to support it this speculation.[/quote]

Youre calling me a liar?[/quote] You lied to the person who initiated you that he is your guru, it was your responsibility to see if he is or not. Now you present your interpretation as the words of Prabhupada and you claim that Prabhupada ordered that nobody takes ever sannyasa (you do not have anything in writing from him to this effect). All of it is not satyam.[/quote]

As an immature devotee chanting 16 rounds and following the 4 regs, I sought initiation based on the advice of senior devotees. I tried to put my trust in ISKCON, and I was intimidated by their anti-rtvik propaganda. So I made a mistake, and now Im trying to rectify it. [br][br]

[quote][cite]>>> Ref. VedaBase => Room Conversation -- January 7, 1977, Bombay[/cite]If you talk in the modern society they will laugh: "What nonsense this man is... By sex life one becomes conditioned. " They cannot understand. Hare Krsna... (japa) [b][u]This should be strictly outlawed, no more sannyasis.[/u][/b] And those sannyasis who have fallen, you get them married, live like a... No more this showbottle, cheating. It is very ludicrous. Even there is a promise that "We shall not fall down again," that is also not believable. What is the use? Better go and speak philosophy in your grhastha dress, not this dress, but you have nice coat, pants, gentleman.[/quote]
[br]
[quote][cite]>>> Ref. VedaBase => Room Conversation -- January 7, 1977, Bombay[/cite]Real protection is Krsna. This is temporary, but because we have got this material body we require some. In this way... And this kind of hypocrisy -- they have taken sannyasa and mixing with woman. This is not to be allowed. If you want woman you get yourself married, live respectfully. We have no objection. But this hypocrisy should be stopped. There have been so many fallen down. [b][u]First of all there will be no sannyasi anymore. I have got very bad experience. And at least, we are not going to create new sannyasis.[/u][/b] And those who have fallen down, let them marry, live like respectable gentlemen.[/quote]

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite][quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite][quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite][quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite]What is the practical disadvantage between someone being initiated by him now compared to being initiated in September 1977?[/quote]

The disadvantage is that you cant walk up to him and ask: "Srila Prabhupada... what did you mean when you said officiating acharya?" and hear HIS explanation that removes all your doubts.[/quote]

Theres a conversation on Oct. 18, 1977, about a man who wanted to be initiated by Srila Prabhupada, and Srila Prabhupada reponded by saying he already deputed men handle all that. That aspiring disciple could not see Srila Prabhupada either.[/quote]

It may come to you as a shock, but the guru HAS A RESPONSIBILITY for training his disciples. Shastra says that no one should become a guru unless they can properly train their disciples. Writing a book is not training a disciple. It helps, but it is not enough. If it was enough we would have all been disciples of Srila Vyasadeva.[/quote]

Srila Prabhupada created a worldwide society with temples in most major cities where devotees could get training. Ive heard he initiated over 5000 disciples (anyone have a reasonably accurate number?). I presume he personally trained less than 5% of them, with the rest trained through the temples. Even now, many, if not most, ISKCON gurus do the same thing. I would think that Srila Prabhupadas creating ISKCON, along with so many books, etc., fulfilled his responsibility for training disciples, so that he could accept disciples as he thought best.

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]Basically Howard says there is no instaces of it in tradition (and to change the tradition Srila Prabhupada asked TKG to write a letter...) -- but the answer to the question is still -- no. Now let us examine lies that Pandu puts up to support it this speculation.[/quote]

Youre calling me a liar?[/quote] You lied to the person who initiated you that he is your guru, it was your responsibility to see if he is or not. Now you present your interpretation as the words of Prabhupada and you claim that Prabhupada ordered that nobody takes ever sannyasa (you do not have anything in writing from him to this effect). All of it is not satyam.[/quote]

As an immature devotee chanting 16 rounds and following the 4 regs, I sought initiation based on the advice of senior devotees. I tried to put my trust in ISKCON, and I was intimidated by their anti-rtvik propaganda. So I made a mistake, and now Im trying to rectify it. [br][br] First of all there will be no sannyasi anymore.
[/quote][/quote]
I am aware of his words, but he never made them into an order, never wrote it to anyone and never asked it to be implemented. Another example of a lie, to think that any of his words is an automatic order. He had ample opportunity at the GBC meetings to make it part of the resolutions there and then when they were read to him. It is your interpretation to take it as an order for all the time to come. In the same way as it is your imagination that it is an order of Prabhupada that he should give initiations for the next 10000 years.

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]Out of context...dweller in peace...Bhakta .Paul howard.....aka pandu das is not Visvanath Chakravati takura....Did he,Visvanatha Chakravati reject his guru...No...Is he a follower of posthumous ritvik...no.....presently bhakta paul is not even initiated and is unable to see vedic knowledge within the natural context of the mercy of guru....He refuses to quote any sastra to back up his flimsy stance.....[/quote]

One hand you say I rejected my guru, and on the other hand you say Im not initiated. You dont seem to mind contradicting yourself, as long as its to put me down.[br][br]
My own view is that I realized that my so-called guru was not authorized, making my initiation merely a show. Like if I sell you the Brooklyn Bridge, but you then discover I didnt own it in the first place, your nonpayment would not break any real contract.

[quote][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]Basically Howard says there is no instaces of it in tradition (and to change the tradition Srila Prabhupada asked TKG to write a letter...) -- but the answer to the question is still -- no. Now let us examine lies that Pandu puts up to support it this speculation.[/quote]

Youre calling me a liar?[/quote] You lied to the person who initiated you that he is your guru, it was your responsibility to see if he is or not. Now you present your interpretation as the words of Prabhupada and you claim that Prabhupada ordered that nobody takes ever sannyasa (you do not have anything in writing from him to this effect). All of it is not satyam.[/quote]

As an immature devotee chanting 16 rounds and following the 4 regs, I sought initiation based on the advice of senior devotees. I tried to put my trust in ISKCON, and I was intimidated by their anti-rtvik propaganda. So I made a mistake, and now Im trying to rectify it. [br][br] First of all there will be no sannyasi anymore.
[/quote][/quote]
I am aware of his words, but he never made them into an order, never wrote it to anyone and never asked it to be implemented. Another example of a lie, to think that any of his words is an automatic order. He had ample opportunity at the GBC meetings to make it part of the resolutions there and then when they were read to him. It is your interpretation to take it as an order for all the time to come. In the same way as it is your imagination that it is an order of Prabhupada that he should give initiations for the next 10000 years.[/quote]

Oh, thats a new one to me, that Srila Prabhupadas recorded words should not be taken seriously unless he declares them as an official order. I guess next time I should look for something to the effect of "I, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Founder-Acarya of ISKCON, do hereby declare the following order:" Why do we even have a "Conversations" section of the Vedabase, if its all meaningless and can be discarded at will? Is the "Lectures" section similarly disposable?

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite][quote][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]Basically Howard says there is no instaces of it in tradition (and to change the tradition Srila Prabhupada asked TKG to write a letter...) -- but the answer to the question is still -- no. Now let us examine lies that Pandu puts up to support it this speculation.[/quote]

Youre calling me a liar?[/quote] You lied to the person who initiated you that he is your guru, it was your responsibility to see if he is or not. Now you present your interpretation as the words of Prabhupada and you claim that Prabhupada ordered that nobody takes ever sannyasa (you do not have anything in writing from him to this effect). All of it is not satyam.[/quote]

As an immature devotee chanting 16 rounds and following the 4 regs, I sought initiation based on the advice of senior devotees. I tried to put my trust in ISKCON, and I was intimidated by their anti-rtvik propaganda. So I made a mistake, and now Im trying to rectify it. [br][br] First of all there will be no sannyasi anymore.
[/quote][/quote]
I am aware of his words, but he never made them into an order, never wrote it to anyone and never asked it to be implemented. Another example of a lie, to think that any of his words is an automatic order. He had ample opportunity at the GBC meetings to make it part of the resolutions there and then when they were read to him. It is your interpretation to take it as an order for all the time to come. In the same way as it is your imagination that it is an order of Prabhupada that he should give initiations for the next 10000 years.[/quote]

Oh, thats a new one to me, that Srila Prabhupadas recorded words should not be taken seriously unless he declares them as an official order. I guess next time I should look for something to the effect of "I, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Founder-Acarya of ISKCON, do hereby declare the following order:" Why do we even have a "Conversations" section of the Vedabase, if its all meaningless and can be discarded at will? Is the "Lectures" section similarly disposable?[/quote]
Prabhupada was very clear when he gave an order. He did not give an order to stop all and every sannyas initiation in the future. You have to have a better source to it then the quotes from conversations taken out of context. This is very very serious deviation from what his spiritual master built. If you take this as his order, I am not surprised that you take the final order seriously.

Bhakta Paul howard also known as Pandu das ....despite your sad attempts to use verbal diarhoeato hide your severe inability to quote sastra.You seem intent on criticizing,speculating and insulting us with your personal views of especially how my guru...is a cheater.You are unable to properly understand the mood and vedic conclusions of srila Prabhupada because of your hidden agenda.Which is to sprew forth diatribe after diatribe of enuendo and aparadha.....just to try and make up for your inability to follow a sincere devotee who you personally chose......Without the mercy of the spiritual master.......You are actually cheating yourself.....Because you want frozen yoghurt spiritual life....No personal practical engagement,no personal guru to personally take responsibility for you,to tell you you are wrong!..Just sentimental....no sastra just how you feel....not one quote from bhagavad gita as it is....Srila Prabhupada talks disciplic succession....but you do not!

Stop it already. Youre both wrong.

There is no such thing as an appointed or elected diksha guru. ISKCON went astray when Tamal and the other 10 little indians hijacked the institution with their appointment lies and unfortunately ISKCON never got back on track because one lie just led to another (lets make more bullshit gurus by electing them)

Sorry -- but the ritvik theory is just falling off the other side of the sinking ship.

Very simple thing --- Srila Prabhupada remains Siksa guru through his vani presence for everyone and for all time. Srila Prabhupada is available as Siksa guru for everyone -- for the next 10 billion years for that matter.

Diksa guru? Whats the big rush? The idea is the same as what Srila Prabhupadas guru maharajas idea was:

"His idea was acarya was not to be nominated amongst the governing body. He said openly you make a GBC and conduct the mission. So his idea was amongst the members of GBC who would come out successful and self effulgent acarya would be automatically selected." (quoted from letter from Srila Prabhupada to one of his disciples)

So by your veiw portnoy prabhu,iskcon is correctly going on? We have GBC ..wether madhyama devotee or uttama iskcon guru-ship must carry on.Because actually iskcon is growing....Until self- effulgent archarya.....?But now iskcon is free from the Prabhupada disciples hang ups.....so guru can initiate unlimitedly....as per his Divine graces instructions to Madhdwisa swami....siddhswarupa swami ,haribol-iskcon conflict.So parampara carries on naturally.Is this what you mean prabhu?

In our zone we have 30 to 60 devotees a year for initiation....so if we stop they will go to other devotee teams like narayanna maharaja.

We must initiate as a society because we are not dying like it appears to be the case in the USA Actually we are growing....why do we stop! Unecessary in my mind just make guru more competent and better trained.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite][quote][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]Basically Howard says there is no instaces of it in tradition (and to change the tradition Srila Prabhupada asked TKG to write a letter...) -- but the answer to the question is still -- no. Now let us examine lies that Pandu puts up to support it this speculation.[/quote]

Youre calling me a liar?[/quote] You lied to the person who initiated you that he is your guru, it was your responsibility to see if he is or not. Now you present your interpretation as the words of Prabhupada and you claim that Prabhupada ordered that nobody takes ever sannyasa (you do not have anything in writing from him to this effect). All of it is not satyam.[/quote]

As an immature devotee chanting 16 rounds and following the 4 regs, I sought initiation based on the advice of senior devotees. I tried to put my trust in ISKCON, and I was intimidated by their anti-rtvik propaganda. So I made a mistake, and now Im trying to rectify it. [br][br] First of all there will be no sannyasi anymore.
[/quote][/quote]
I am aware of his words, but he never made them into an order, never wrote it to anyone and never asked it to be implemented. Another example of a lie, to think that any of his words is an automatic order. He had ample opportunity at the GBC meetings to make it part of the resolutions there and then when they were read to him. It is your interpretation to take it as an order for all the time to come. In the same way as it is your imagination that it is an order of Prabhupada that he should give initiations for the next 10000 years.[/quote]

Oh, thats a new one to me, that Srila Prabhupadas recorded words should not be taken seriously unless he declares them as an official order. I guess next time I should look for something to the effect of "I, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Founder-Acarya of ISKCON, do hereby declare the following order:" Why do we even have a "Conversations" section of the Vedabase, if its all meaningless and can be discarded at will? Is the "Lectures" section similarly disposable?[/quote]
Prabhupada was very clear when he gave an order. He did not give an order to stop all and every sannyas initiation in the future. You have to have a better source to it then the quotes from conversations taken out of context. This is very very serious deviation from what his spiritual master built. If you take this as his order, I am not surprised that you take the final order seriously.[/quote]

Whatever. If youre going to call me a liar, you need a much better claim than that b.s. [br][br]
Its a shame that you and sri_govinda_das have to be such ..... to ruin it here. Ive just deleted this site from my rss reader. I dont want to know what you guys have to say.

In other words you agree that if you take initiatioin and then for two years do not chant your japa it is a lie, whether you did it in front of a priest or a priest who is your guru. As is a lie to say that it is an explicit order of Prabhupada to change the obvious clear tradition. To say that the post samadhi ritivik system is normal, traditional and obvious is a lie.

Is this the best ritvikism has to offer? Sorry but i am trully under whelmed....what is the substance?Is the motivating force just an engrained hatred of iskcon gurus as it seems?They appear to have an exremely low opinion of their own spiritual reality,because they want to stop krishnas sampradaya at Srila Prabhupadas departure.American ritvikism ,Bangalore ,singapore ...anyone other followers of this ritvik nonsense..... is that it?
At least Bhakta Paul howard had some life! Even if he was just sentimental...the common thread seems to be they hate the current and past guru quite intensely.Offensively,which means krishna will keep them far away from his mercy....unless a devotee intercedes.

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite]
Srila Prabhupada created a worldwide society with temples in most major cities where devotees could get training. Ive heard he initiated over 5000 disciples (anyone have a reasonably accurate number?). I presume he personally trained less than 5% of them, with the rest trained through the temples. Even now, many, if not most, ISKCON gurus do the same thing. I would think that Srila Prabhupadas creating ISKCON, along with so many books, etc., fulfilled his responsibility for training disciples, so that he could accept disciples as he thought best.[/quote]

Yes, Srila Prabhupada has created a training INSTITUTION, a school for spiritual training. That does not mean however, that all who attend that institution can claim that they are his direct disciples. They are followers of Srila Prabhupada but not his direct disciples. When you study at Max Planck Institute today you cant claim that your teacher is Max Planck - that would be considered a lie.

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite][quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite]
Srila Prabhupada created a worldwide society with temples in most major cities where devotees could get training. Ive heard he initiated over 5000 disciples (anyone have a reasonably accurate number?). I presume he personally trained less than 5% of them, with the rest trained through the temples. Even now, many, if not most, ISKCON gurus do the same thing. I would think that Srila Prabhupadas creating ISKCON, along with so many books, etc., fulfilled his responsibility for training disciples, so that he could accept disciples as he thought best.[/quote]

Yes, Srila Prabhupada has created a training INSTITUTION, a school for spiritual training. That does not mean however, that all who attend that institution can claim that they are his direct disciples. They are followers of Srila Prabhupada but not his direct disciples. When you study at Max Planck Institute today you cant claim that your teacher is Max Planck - that would be considered a lie.[/quote] Again there is a difference -- to claim you were directly trained by Max Planck is a lie, but there is nothing wrong in considering him your teacher. Prabhupada is not a mundane teacher, and yes he can guide his disciples (be they siksa disciples or diksa disciples). The difficulty is that first you announce that those who were directly lectured by Mac Planck are somehow better (by default) then those who did not get that chance (also a lie) and then everyone wants to put it on their resume (lie coming from the lie). I do not blame Pandu, I blame emphasis on direct diksa and associated institutional respect. It will go away in soime 20 years but now it is a bit of a problem, we would rather lie to achieve the impossible, whereas it is not necessary to be perfect disciples (siksa) of Prabhupada.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]The difficulty is that first you announce that those who were directly lectured by Mac Planck are somehow better (by default) then those who did not get that chance (also a lie) and then everyone wants to put it on their resume (lie coming from the lie).[/quote]

And where did I say that? ---------
What I have always said is that personal, direct training by the guru can not be replaced by reading a book. -----------
Some people directly trained by Srila Prabhupada over a long period of time turned out to be rotten scoundrels, others who only had a short personal association of their guru turned into wonderful Vaishnavas. That however does not indicate that personal association of the guru is irrelevant. The extreme cases do not negate the rule. The most important part is the suitability of the disciple. If the disciple is receptive, personal training of his guru is extremely valuable.

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]The difficulty is that first you announce that those who were directly lectured by Mac Planck are somehow better (by default) then those who did not get that chance (also a lie) and then everyone wants to put it on their resume (lie coming from the lie).[/quote]

And where did I say that? ---------
What I have always said is that personal, direct training by the guru can not be replaced by reading a book. -----------
Some people directly trained by Srila Prabhupada over a long period of time turned out to be rotten scoundrels, others who only had a short personal association of their guru turned into wonderful Vaishnavas. That however does not indicate that personal association of the guru is irrelevant. The extreme cases do not negate the rule. The most important part is the suitability of the disciple. If the disciple is receptive, personal training of his guru is extremely valuable.[/quote] You see there is such a thing as personal association by reading a book. But there is no such a thing as transmission of mantra by reading the book. Reading the book and getting personal association is more important. It is the first qualification, in my book, of an ISKCON guru that he should teach his disciples on how to realate to Prabhupada personally even if he is not present on this planet. For all these you need a guru who trains you principal siksa guru-acharya, initiating guru officiating acharya and your local siksa guru - only a few had it all in one person.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite] You see there is such a thing as personal association by reading a book. [/quote]

Suuuuuure... you can even ask the author specific questions and get answers directly from him.... This is what all the loonies who have perfect answers in our movement claim.... the only problem is... all of these answers are different... FBI - faith based illusion.

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite] You see there is such a thing as personal association by reading a book. [/quote]

Suuuuuure... you can even ask the author specific questions and get answers directly from him.... This is what all the loonies who have perfect answers in our movement claim.... the only problem is... all of these answers are different...[/quote] Not loonies and not different, just regular devotees and personal answers. Ideally they all will raise to the standard of Gaura-kisora Babaji Maharaja and carry Prema Bhakti Candrika with us and get Narottamas personal association (yes personal association is by definition is different for every person). It is not an uncommon practice in all religions, including Gaudia Vaisnavism. Bhajana rahasya was written as a result of this process. But of course your level will impact on results;-)

Why does ccd use the photo.pic of someone else? Is it to proell some kind of facade? Hope not!
Ysvt.

Why does ccd use the photo.pic of someone else? Is it to propell some kind of facade? Hope not!
Ysvt.

Someone else? Is is the same Dave Lalor that I know? (or you miss me so much that you want to have a new picture? I think I still have that one on my mobile phone...)

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]In other words you agree that if you take initiatioin and then for two years do not chant your japa it is a lie, whether you did it in front of a priest or a priest who is your guru. As is a lie to say that it is an explicit order of Prabhupada to change the obvious clear tradition. To say that the post samadhi ritivik system is normal, traditional and obvious is a lie.[/quote]

Im looking forward to forgetting this sanga, but since Im still thinking about it, I figured maybe take a look.[br][br]
Its interesting to see that after revealing my heart in the association devotees, and it gets used to stab me in the back. Its happened many times before, but I cant help but hope that devotees would be more sensitive. I suppose some are, but theres always someone to spoil it. [br][br]
Well, fyi, when I first asked Bhaktimarga Swami about initiation, I told him that I did not know how I could make vows because I was under the control of material nature. So I was honest about my position as a fallible conditioned soul, but he chose to give me initiation anyway, apparently because I was eager to advance in chanting Hare Krishna. In fact I did not actually ask him for initiation. When I originally confided my thoughts about initiation to him, he advised me to wait 20 years because its easier for an older man to keep the vows, but after about 4 years I asked him if he would be my guru eventually, because I didnt know if I should look for another guru instead, and he said he would initiate me at the next opportunity. Since I knew I was under the control of the material energy, although trying my best to please Krishna and Srila Prabhupada, I simply vowed to do my best, but I never promised perfection. Of course I pray for perfection eventually, but that depends on Krishnas mercy. [br][br]
I suppose you or someone will find a way to use this to further poison my enthusiasm for devotee association, but at this point it doesnt seem to matter very much.[br][br]

Pandu prabhu. Please forgive me if I have offended you. I hardly try to look into your faults (I did not mention being under the control of material nature); it is as simple as that - we are all conditioned souls and we all can not read the mind of an acharya and should not do it. The only thing I know is not that Prabhupada had ordered no sannyasa or ordered this or that, he gave so many instructions, but the instruction to cooperate is the most important. And that includes accepting other peoples faults and limitations, but seeing their desire to serve. I hope you will be able to eventually forgive your guru and find ways to communicate with him and I am sure he will accept your service to Prabhupada as true and honest. I suggest just not reading what was in the mind of our acharya, but follow his explicit will -- to cooperate and specifically cooperate with the gbc, however painful it may be.

Sorry my mistake. U r using ur photo from the 1920s!

Please stop being silly - it is 2008. But just to please you I have uploaded my photo as of today to my profile here... enjoy!!!

Side profile with sikha and freshly shaved head. Ok,u r definately Hare Krishna not Mormon.

So u must be fired-up!

I told u not working for a living is only way to fly!! ;o)

Gaura Prema Ananda!!

Now we just need to get out on the street and KILL THE ATHIESTS! :o>

Nice to see some of yall making up. Blessed are the peacemakers.

Remember --- you are having these discussions on a public forum for all to see. People are waching, listening, READING. Be careful. You are dealing with Radha and Krishna. You are dealing with Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, the Six Goswamis, the Gaudiya Vaisnava Parampara. You are representing Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur, Srila Gaur Kisore Das Babaji, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur and my beloved spiritual master His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. So be humble and play nice. Sometimes brothers or other family members may argue but after all is said and done they remain united by love and devotion.

Im going to tune in now and then and if I see that everyone has again run amok and if one particular name seems to continue to appear over and over with acid and venom dripping from his tongue and typewriter ... then I shall pounce upon him with fury.

Hare Krishna!

All glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga!

Thank u Dad prabhu!

" if one particular name seems to continue to appear over and over with acid and venom dripping from his tongue and typewriter ... then I shall pounce upon him with fury. "

Particular name? Pray tell?

Ysvt.

Q "Is there an instance, within Gaudiya Vaisnavaism, of a ritvik guru system?"
A The Sad Guru Acaryas function on behalf of Lord Nityananda Prabhu. " Lord Nityananda was commissioned subsequently by Shree Chaitanyadeva to preach the Holy Name of Krishna at the doors of all persons without exception. This shows that the Power which is wielded by Lord Nityananda belongs really to the Supreme Lord Himself. There is thus no distinction between the Power of the Supreme Lord and that of Lord Nityananda or that of the Sad-Guru whose power is identical with that of Lord Nityananda. But it also proves that there is such a thing as the real delegation of specific function of the Supreme Lord to appropriate agents." Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur.
http://www.srilagourgovindaswami.org/sample_read_sgnpdmm.html

Q "where it is sanctioned to just use the guru like a door mat...without his personal consent?"
A In fact, there is an example of a student using guru without his personal consent. Although his level of devotion is famous and brought him great powers, when the guru came to know he had cheated the gurus right to accept or reject him, he was deprived of the result of the gurus blessing and his powers. That person was Ekalavya.

Q "Srila Rupa goswami Prabhupada was infact the sampradaya archarya and a direct disciple of the supreme lord"
A Srila Rupa Gosvami begins his great book by offering his respectful obeisances unto Sri Sanatana Gosvami, who is his elder brother and spiritual master, and he prays that Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu may be very pleasing to him. He further prays that by residing in that ocean of nectar, SriSanatana Gosvami may always feel transcendental pleasure in the service of Radha and Krishna.

Q "Diksa guru? Whats the big rush? The idea is the same as what Srila Prabhupadas guru maharajas idea was: "His idea was acarya was not to be nominated amongst the governing body. He said openly you make a GBC and conduct the mission. So his idea was amongst the members of GBC who would come out successful and self effulgent acarya would be automatically selected." (quoted from letter from Srila Prabhupada to one of his disciples)"
A Currently the self-effulgent Acarya might not be selected by the institution, so many kanistha gurus and souls remain in the gradual purification program ISKCON, but He will be selected by some and after training and purification, they will function on His behalf.

A "I have now explained both the conventional understanding and the inner significance of the expression panca-samskara. But still one question arises. "Why do teachers not give this kind of instructions to their students today?" The answer is that due to the degenerative effects of time, mans understanding about the role of spiritual teacher has become extremely corrupt. Today people take instruction from kula-gurus, hereditary family teachers or similar such persons and therefore they are unable to take shelter of a qualified teacher. It is said in the sastras that the seriously inquisitive student must approach a spiritual teacher who has attained shelter and faith in the Vedas and God, and surrender to Him.
When one surrenders in this way, the material ocean diminishes to the size of a calfs hoofprint. However, if that surrenders is in name only, then it is pointless. At the present time most people do not want the shelter of a genuine teacher because very few want to solve the problems of life. However, it is the responsibility of the living soul in this world to search for a teacher and solve these problems. The Lord reveals Himself to the serious student in the form of a teacher who can rescue him. It is good to have a strong desire for a teacher, but it is wrong to accept just any person simply to satisfy ones desires. A genuine teacher will come to one who is sincerely searching, but before the student accepts that teacher he should also examine him for one year. Without examination the teacher - student relationship is only a disturbance. After close study we conclude that without proper acceptance of panca-samskara the conditioned soul cannot develop intense devotion to Sri Hari. Therefore panca-samskara is extremely necessary. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakrur

http://www.srilagourgovindaswami.org/teachings/teaching03.htm

Q "So by your veiw portnoy prabhu, iskcon is correctly going on?

A "On this mundane plane in the conditioned state, we are anxious to know all things in the fullest measure, even as God Himself knows them. This bad ambition should properly enough be impossible of realisation. If it were possible for us to know everything, the distinction between ourselves and God would cease. Such ambition is the outcome of our attitude of disloyalty towards God. It proves that we are not willing to tolerate the domination of God. We are anxious to become God. This unnatural delusion is kept up by our experiences of this world." Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur

http://www.srilagourgovindaswami.org/teachings/teaching07.htm

Once again Maah,your attempt isstretching for straws....your answer for ritvik sampradaya authorisation is useless....because yes sri nityananda Prabhu is able to do any crazy thing because he has an intrinsic Avadhuta mood,and the supreme autocratic personality of godhead......which is above all regulative principles,sastric rules and regulations.So what possible relevance is it to us?
Conditioned souls who have cheating propensities....and other modes of material nature symptoms,failings and inbuilt frailties.We cannot perform his sublime activities.....Also though quoting srila gaura-govinda maharaja and offering a vague silioquy which having read it has no ritvik sastric quotes in it....are you saying gaura govinda maharaja was a ritvik follower?But maybe i am just not on your own pink cloud.Having heard many lectures of his he certainly is not! Either way there are no bhagavad gita quotes to prove the sampradaya should stop at Srila AC Bhaktivedanta swami Prabhupada.You are doing a great job at making shore we read his personal veiws,srila gaura-govinda maharajas......however merciful sri nityananda is there was no sastric evidence ..authorising such ritvik nonsense!

I guess we can conclude re the thread question: Theres no such instance. (Ive checked TFO and theres nothing.)

Your example of ekalavya...the king of the nishadas is inspired though! Being naturally a single pionted...beligerant ksatriya,empowered by a ferocious personal sincerity he refused to accept no as an answer from Drona Archarya,when he approached him for martial initiation....Drona chose not to instruct him because he came from the lower grade kings which were considered encapable of following vedic culture satisfactorily.Hence such uncultured unregulated ksatriyas were deemed.......inauspicious therefore his duty was to limit there empowerment.However ekalavya chose to worship a deity of drona Archarya ,which was sanctioned by his individual sincerity...and obviously the supreme lord himself.Since ekalavya became a superior archer than Arjuna,though bereft of personal association and encouragment.Interesting enough after storming the gates of martial arts guruship ,ekalavya when asked who is your guru?Answered....to Drona....Drona-archarya my lord.Surpised!.....Drona then accepted ekalavya, who gained immortal fame after granting drona his guru dukshina.....the thumb from his right hand.Thus he was unable in the future to perform the super human acts of archery ,which had been shown to the young kaurava princes and the pandavas..Which was an attempt to infact satisfy his loving disciple arjuna.Whom he had promised would be his most perfect and competent princely warrior disciple.

This was in a different age,involving the personal eternal servants of sri krishna....like arjuna.Which most of us are not.
Once again was ekalavya a hare krishna devotee?No .....he was after learning a martial art....archery.Was he,ekalavya a devotee initiated into the brahma madva gaudiya sampradaya by srila Prabhupada?No he was a demoniac king who had to be destroyed at a later date.....in krishnas time and sanctioned action.
Was ekalavya interested in devotional service to lord sri krishna?I would suggest not.....having read about his death in krishna book......Though extremely motivated for personal fame and profit. .He was a nishada king....uninterested in devotional service.So follow him if you want to be a martial arts expert.But what has that got to do with our sampradaya gurus being used as door mats.....Drona personally refused ekalavya......he accepted arjuna....In our devotional context Srila Prabhupada will not able to interveiw personally the disciples to ascertain there individual qualities and personality...and they will be forced upon him!Wether he likes it or not.
Is he meant to become a facsimile of jesus christ?.......you just have to accept......and be saved.....how utterly mundane!

Srila Rupa goswami is considered the sampradaya archarya in unison with his brother in service.....however within our line srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati goswami uniquely gives him this honour of SAMPRADAYA Archarya.....unfortunely our srila AC Bhaktivedanta swami Prabhupada is not offered this same respect or position of worship by his gaudiya math godbrothers . As a result i beg to offer how can he change the intergral nature of our spiritual knowledge transmission without at lest contacting them....asking their opinions.

Which is what ritviks contend.They seem intent on hidden agendas ...like devotee asassination..in the form of give a dog a bad name and hang it!........Personally having seen there utter hatred of all new gurus their own godbrothers in many cases,it seems certain their emotions over-ride there training in devotional service.......usually leading to aparadhas which are further broad cast worldwide in hollywood style Guru death by enuendo tactics as shown on sun sampradaya.

This guru envy by some godbrothers which is repeated as it is on even this site by words such as....Bullshit gurus by portnoy show meleccha and nishada culture not vaisnavaism.They hope our resolve to follow the prescribed authorised system ...of Disciplic succession will in effect be confused initially ,then eventually we will also become bewildered and frustrated like them.....Our intelligence will fail to be single pionted on bhagavan satvatam vati.....guru and sastra and we will welcome their perverted version of devotional reality .......seperate and distinguished from the foot steps of the mahajans and the hundreds of Bhaktivedantas this society is meant to create to forfil its preaching purpose.Such was the vision handed down to us by our Bhaktivedanta diksa and siksa guru even though both were two seperate distinct persons.They were united in the same preaching mood and siddhanta.

Your last gaura-govinda maharaja quotes leave me personally ,,,,neutral,but well done at getting them introduced for younger less experienced non-sankirtan devotees to be suitably impressed by.I have just come back from our local iskcon temple....we have six different guru who serve the hundreds of local devotees.Some like me will ask a few questions and leave it ....while many according to their personal veiw and desire will indeed need and demand far more devotional nourishment.Such guidance and encouragment is obviously being offered freely,and conversely many young devotees are naturally sincerely surrendering voluntarily to whom they choose........Such humble submission and service a natural symptom of devotional service is a live and well....out of love ,not some voted structure.....but because they choose it to be so.!hare krishna

And so our sampradaya goes on .....according to sri chaitanya mahaprabhus and sri nityanandas will, desire and mercy.

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]Your last gaura-govinda maharaja quotes leave me personally ,,,,neutral[/quote] These are not quotes from Srila Goura Govinda Swami. These are questions that someone tried to answer by selective and edited quoting. Do not be deceived to think that he was asked these questions and answered them in this way.

So maah you are a motivated person using your lack of faith to deceive in an attempt to propound your own agenda.What is your true intentions.....modes of material nature concoctions....cheaters and the cheated.....how sad! So how can such nonsense bewilder sincere devotees permanently........even if such garbage seems to have substance....together several sincere devotees will push on the sankirtan movement of AC Bhaktivedanta swami Prabhupada in our small way.

At least paul howard...aka as pandu das was genuine enough to reveal his heart and sincere intentions.....not this almost....pink cloud floss parading as mumbo jumbo..........,sorry maah...but use your energy to become free from your sad..... envious nature.

The nature of portnoy and maahs stance is to continue the sampradaya or to be against iskcon guru further initiating more bhaktivedanta followers..?I would suggest that they seem anti-guru in stance.....hence..chapter7 verse 27 of bhagavad gita asit is....iccha -dvesa-samutthena dvandva -mohena bharata,sarva -bhutani sammoham sarge yanti parantapa....O scion of bharata,O conqueror of the foe,all living entities are born into delusion,bewildered by dualities arisen from desire and hate.In the purport...srila Prabhupada commentsDue to this desire and hate,the ignorant person wants to become one with the supreme person and envies krishna.Since their desires are in essence envy ......against krishnas Disciplic succession continuing.....pothumous ritvik archarya,or no more gurus ...or various combinations of the modes ....no straight forward answers....no simple brahminical exchanges,personally they seem less than open....hence envious as many conditioned souls are.

Why is the brainless one, sri_govinda_das, allowed to continue rambling on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on

Dandavat pranams, Hare Krishna and goodbye Prabhus/Matajis. Sorry i have offended you all.
May Sri Guru shower His blessings on you all.

However if they support the continued authorised process of guru parampara and the iskcon GBC authoritys decision to deem ritvik as a perversion....apa-sampradaya,as alien to our process then i will be very happy to admit my personal failings....and offer a sincere apology to maah and portnoy ..prabhus.?

A Currently the self-effulgent Acarya might not be selected by the institution, so many kanistha gurus and souls remain in the gradual purification program ISKCON, but He will be selected by some and after training and purification, they will function on His behalf.

Is he present right now on the planet or r we awaiting such advent.

Thank you Maal prabhu.

Ysvt.

Sorry nrsingha we do not have kanistha gurus in iskcon....they are at least madyama ...second class.They respect the supreme lord,discriminate between the demons, devotees and the innocent.They preach to the innocent,and serve and glorify the senior vaisnavas bereft of the tendency to criticize others.While actively making freinds with equals....in devotional service.Lastly they avoid those envious demoniac persons intent on trying to enjoy krishnas property without him.

sri_govinda_das:

SHUT UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[quote][cite] portnoy:[/cite]sri_govinda_das:

SHUT UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/quote] It is an interesting argument. I wonder on what pramana is it based? Ad shutupilum?

And the runner up big mouth know it all idiot named ccd chimes in. Weve got harmony in stupidity.

sriguruspeon@gmail.com

Please try to stay within the format question/answer. Otherwise it is very easy to run into personal diatribes and conflict.
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Please Prabhus, stay but try not to lose respect and good manners. Hare Krishna!