Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

If you are debating with a sri vaisnava or a tattvavadi, you should refer to gopala tapani upanishad.

no, I am debating with a sivananda practitioner

A good book to give him to read is Krsna, Lord or Avatara? the relationship between Krsna and Visnu: in the context of the Avatara myth as presented by the Harivamsa, the Visnupurana and the Bhagavatapurana. ( Surrey: Routledge) by F. Matchett. In other words according to Harivamsa and Bhagavat Purana he is the primary Purusha and another with graphical illustrations that are quite convincing is Krishna, the Intimate Deity by Graham M. Scheweig (Garuda das).

after copy and paste of many quotes I sent this email,

What do you think, Prabhus?

Dear,

The last email was on the Gaudiya Vaishnava position about your question "is Krishna an incarnation of Vishnu?"

Here is my personal analysis on the subject:

Certain personalities state certain positions, Krishna as supreme,
Vishnu, Shiva as supreme etc in order to advance a particular mission that is
obviously helping the masses.

No one should try to stop devotion to lord Shiva, lord Vishnu or Krishna in the
name of having the right conclusion. The bhakti in the heart of the
devotee is very intimate and it just flows to wherever it should.

One has to fly its own plane as to where to go as supreme destination
and it is certainly a many legged trip, with stops at different
stations.

To me, as I told you once, there is no higher destination than Goloka
Vrindavan and to be in the company of Krishna and His pure devotees,
rendering service engulfed in a non-ending ever expanding spiritual
bliss and so I base my activities on trying to reach that.

Others will have undoubtedly other goals and work for them
accordingly. I am no judge nor can do anything about personal choices
in the spiritual lives of people. I only pray that we all are in the
gradual path of self-realization, wherever we might be at this moment.

It is a complex answer, I hope he likes it... but it will depend on what his agenda is. I find that to prove something like that purely by logic one needs to have a whole culture of debate and to have training and be of a caliber of Baladeva Vidyabhusana, who achieved just that. I like your answer nevertheless, but I am sure you do not really think that professing that Siva is a supreme is "helping the masses". There is no doubt that Krsna is the supreme.

Advancement can be and it is in most of the cases very gradual. I do believe that worship of Shiva and uttering his name, helps people advance spiritually (vaishnavanam yatha shambu).
Another thing is when the Holy Name and/or prasadam enter the scene. Then all material rules fade away :)

My approach with Vedic followers (i.e. accepting sastra):

1. establish supremacy of sattvika Puranas and SB as topmost one (as per Tattva sandarbha)
2. establish supremacy of Krsna (as per Krsna sandarbha)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svayam_Bhagavan gives various arguments ala Krsna sandarbha.

I dont know if Shivananda is from the advaitin branches of Saivism or theistic ones. Encourage the latter (Saivadarsana being the prominent one).

Mishraji, if its any use to you: The approach I use with dedicated Saivites (besides the Bhagavad-gita) is to refer to the Padma-purana where lord Shiva gives elaborate (chapters and chapters) descriptions of Lord Krishnas lilas, form and beauty. Lord Shiva describes the beauty of Vrindavan extensively to Mother Parvati, and while sitting on the bank of the Yamuna descibes in detail to Narada Muni the daily schedule of Lord Krishna in Vrindavan from waking in the arms of His associates in the early morning to sneaking out of His home late in the night (When I first read it, it really was like reading Krsna book). I emphasise the fact that no where else in the Vedas and puranas can one find such elaborate detail and length of description about any other personality. No other personality in the Vedas and puranas has such attention given to them, for e.g. focusing on minute details such the length, shape and curl of Bhagavan Shri Krishnas hair on HIs forehead, or describing every piece of jewellery or body part, and even given quite some time to describe who His associates are and the many different forests where He roams in Vrindavan and what happened there. Although there are many broad, general descriptions of Sri Vishnu and His abode and lord Shiva and his abode throughout sastra, no where does either personallity receive such minute attention as Svayam Bhagavan Sri Krishna.

Regarding the status of lord Shiva, in the same section of the Padma purana even Narada Muni approaches lord Shiva to clarify some detailed questions about Lord Krishnas daily pastimes. And lord Shiva was able to answer. This gives an indication of lord Shivas status as an elevated Vaisnava hence vaishnavanam yatha shambu. As is the mood in your letter, I also do not disuade people from worshipping lord Shiva if they actually fixed up in that worship, but I do make them aware that the lord they are worshipping is himself meditating on the daily pastimes of Lord Shri Krishna.

> Padma-purana where lord Shiva gives elaborate (chapters and chapters) descriptions of Lord Krishnas lilas, form and beauty

Do you have it in e-format? Could you upload it, please?

> I also do not disuade people from worshipping lord Shiva if they actually fixed up in that worship, but I do make them aware that the lord they are worshipping is himself meditating on the daily pastimes of Lord Shri Krishna.

Yes. After becoming theistic Saivas they should worship Siva as the servant of the Lord. Thats a Vaisnava way approved by SP (Room conversation and press conference, July 9, 1975, Chicago):

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, in Winnipeg there is one very pious east Indian man who for many years has been worshiping somewhat, worshiping Lord Siva. And his wife is also a very quite chaste woman and sincere follower'97and so were her parents'97of Lord Siva. And he is reading your Bhagavad-gita. He visits our temple. And I have given him the first volume of Canto Four which discusses Lord Siva a great deal. And he has read in one of your purports that Krsna is more pleased when you worship His devotee than when you worship Him directly. And Lord Siva is a very great devotee of Krsna. So he has now interpreted that to mean that if he worships Lord Siva so nicely, then actually he is pleasing Krsna more. So he is experiencing some difficulty because of this and Im not quite sure how to instruct him that actually...
Prabhupada: Difficulty?
Brahmananda: That... Our Godbrother has difficulty in replying to this interpretation that Krsna says, "You can please Me by worshiping My devotee," and Lord Siva is the devotee of Krsna. So therefore this man says, "Then I shall worship Lord Siva. In that way I shall please Krsna."
Prabhupada: But if he accepts Lord Siva is devotee of Krsna, then by worshiping Lord Siva he will be benefited. If he thinks Lord Siva is independent, then he will not be benefited.
Devotee (3): Ive got him to accept that Lord Siva is devotee of Krsna, but theres no practical instruction in his worldly activities coming.
Prabhupada: No, vaisnavanam yatha sambhuh: "Amongst the Vaisnavas, Sambhu, Lord Siva, is the greatest Vaisnava." So we worship Lord Siva as Vaisnava. We gives respect to Vaisnavas. So why not Lord Siva? Lord Siva is a big Vaisnava. But generally, the devotees of Lord Siva, they take Lord Siva is independent God. That is offensive. If you know that Lord Siva is also a devotee, you can give more respect to Lord Siva. Krsna will be pleased.
Devotee (3): Srila Prabhupada, he does not chant Hare Krsna, he chants om sivaya namah.
Prabhupada: Thats all right.
Devotee (3): Its all right?
Prabhupada: He will gradually become devotee. When God, Lord Siva, will be pleased upon him, he will advise to worship.
Devotee (3): He is already trying to tell him to follow in your footsteps surely, so just before I left he said he will try once again to chant sixteen rounds of japa, Hare Krsna. He has tried already. He has a taste for...
Prabhupada: If he simply understands that Lord Siva is a Vaisnava and if he worships Lord Siva, then he will get the benefit.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]> Padma-purana where lord Shiva gives elaborate (chapters and chapters) descriptions of Lord Krishnas lilas, form and beauty

Do you have it in e-format? Could you upload it, please?.[/quote]

No I dont sorry, but the section is the first half of the Patalakhand of Padma-purana. Below I have typed out a section that is philosphically relevant. You can see what I mean by being a very similar mood to Krishna book.

Padma-purana Patalakhand, chapter 82, verses 55 - 89

(The context is lord Shiva is responding to questions from Narada Muni. Lord Shiva is describing how after meditiating on Lord Narayana, Lord Narayana and Lakshmi devi appeared to him and asked him to choose a boon.)

"Having saluted the Lord of Kamala, the giver of boons, I said to Him, "O ocean of compassion, O highest God, I desire to see that form of yours which gives great joy, which is the abode of joy, which is eternal, which is embodied, which is superior to everything else, which is qualityless, actionless, calm and which the wise know as Brahman."

Then then glorious lord of Kamala said to me, who has sought His refuge, "Today you will see that form of mine which is desired by you in your mind. Go to My Vrindavan, to the western bank of the Yamuna." Saying so, the Lord of the world vanished along with His beloved. Then I came to the auspicious bank of the Yamuna. There I saw Krishna, the Lord of all gods, who had put on the dress of a cowherd, who was lovely, who was the age of a boy, who had put his charming left hand on the shoulder of His beloved, who was laughing and making her laugh in the group of cowherdesses, who was bright like a glossy cloud, and who is the abode of auspicious qualities.

Then, having laughed, Krishna speaking sweetly like nectar said to me, "O Rudra, having known your desire I have appeared before you and you have now seen this uncommon form of Mine which is the embodiement of pure love that is solidified goodness intelligence joy [sat-cid-ananda], which is at the same time formless, qualityless, all-pervading, actionless and higher then the highest. The Upanisads describe this faultess form of Mine only. Because My qualities have not sprung from the constituents of prakrti and are endless, and because My qualities are not effected [unchanging], they call me the qualityless Lord. O Maheshavara, because this form of Mine is not visible to the physical eyes, all the Vedas describe Me as formless. The wise ones also know Me to be Brahaman, part of the Supreme Spirit, because of My all-pervading nature. As I am not the agent of the visible world, they also call me actionless. I am also called actionless because My portions, through the power of maya, perform creation; I do not myself perform creation.

O Shiva, O Mahadev, I am overcome with love for these cowherdesses. I do not know any any act, even myself [?]. Being influenced by her [Srimati Radharani] love, I always sport with Her. Know this My beloved Radhika to be a great Deity. Around Her, see her friends in the hundreds and thousands. O Rudra, they are eternal, just as I have an eternal body. The cowherds, cowherdesses and Vrindavan always exists. All this is eternal and full of joy. Know this Ananadakanda to be My Vrindavan, merely by entering which a man would not again go to wordly existence. The fool who, having reached my grove, goes elsewhere, is a self-killer. I have told the truth and only the truth. I never leave Vrindavan to go anywhere else. With Her I always live here only. O Rudra, I have thus told you everything I had in mind."

(end)

Thanks. 8) Attached is Sri Naradas darsan of Sri Sri Radha Krsna from Padma P.