Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

This part is interesting - "....being subject to the disciplinary and judicial system of ISKCON; giving 10% of ones income to the Society, and not divorcing ones spouse." - shame that most ISKCON members dont follow this but according to Maharaja will be obliged to do so otherwise they wont be "accepted as being connected to Srila Prabhupada in our disciplic succession"....quite a statement, I wonder what Srila Prabhupada would have to say about that.

>and not divorcing ones spouse.

I know several ISKCON leaders who are temple presidents and they have divorced their spouse several times, I am glad to know that all these people arent ISKCON members any more. But how can they be presidents of ISKCON centers if they arent even ISKCON member.

>giving 10% of ones income to the Society
>engage in leadership positions; perform ceremonies and worship such as giving class, worshipping deities, and becoming a guru;

Not a bad deal. By giving 10% of your income, you get the contract to send others back to godhead and of course all those 10% get reimbursed once you become a guru.

Recently on the request of our National Council Ive written a paper on the membership from the historical and current pov so Im somehow acquainted with this issue.

> being subject to the disciplinary and judicial system of ISKCON

Stands to reason. Disciplinary and judicial system of ISKCON is yet to appear though.

> giving 10% of ones income to the Society

SP spoke about 50%. Its in the ISKCON Lawbook.

> not divorcing ones spouse.

Good.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite] Disciplinary and judicial system of ISKCON is yet to appear though.

> giving 10% of ones income to the Society

SP spoke about 50%. Its in the ISKCON Lawbook.[/quote] It is strange, kind of immature I would say. Clearly ISKCON is different in every country, so the membership rules will vary, according to the local law and jurisdiction.

VEDA: "Recently on the request of our National Council Ive written a paper on the membership from the historical and current pov so Im somehow acquainted with this issue.

> being subject to the disciplinary and judicial system of ISKCON

Stands to reason. Disciplinary and judicial system of ISKCON is yet to appear though.

> giving 10% of ones income to the Society

SP spoke about 50%. Its in the ISKCON Lawbook.

> not divorcing ones spouse.

Good."

Agree with you VEDA....my concern is the other statement - devotees who dont fall into these categories (either 1 or all of them) will not be "accepted as being connected to Srila Prabhupada in our disciplic succession"....considering most devotees that I know who are considered ISKCON members (including those in management) dont actually follow all these prerequisites - so are these existing ISKCON members not connected to SP in our disciplic succession?

1. There are many devotees that render direct service to the Deities or contribute towards the preaching etc. - either full time or part time, but dont neccessarily give 10% of their income to the temple (for whatever reason i.e., because they cant afford it or have been burned out in the past by misuse of funds by management).

2. They may not be subject to all the aspects of the disciplinary and judicial system, considering most devotees live outside this framework and they just want to contribute in some way without all the heavy handed law enforcement - of course there has to be SOME law and order in relation to sexual predators and Deity/devotee etiquette etc.

3. They may have been divorced for some good reason (physical or psychological abuse can be a common reason), I know of one Temple President who has divorced more than 3 times.

Seems to me a rather heavy-handed approach that may put off devotees, new and old, from participating and feeling like they are being judged (even more than exists at the moment).

> so are these existing ISKCON members not connected to SP in our disciplic succession?

Therefore various levels of membership are suggested.

1+2: The idea is to give as much as one can. Therere churches with 10% (theres even a historical word http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tithe).

3. Sure, one can have such karma. But is that an ideal candidate for TP?

One can think like that but every serious church has well-defined membership. My opinion is that many problems could be prevented this way.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]> so are these existing ISKCON members not connected to SP in our disciplic succession?[br]

Therefore various levels of membership are suggested.[/quote]
I find it all ridiculous. I am sorry for being so frank. It is clearly one of those things that remains irrelevant for the rest of ISKCONs existence. [br] Besides that it is a self-destructive tendency to restrict a membership in the situations when there is evidence of membership dropping or other signs of stagnation. [br][br]But hey what can be said?

Youre entitled to your opinion.

> to restrict a membership in the situations when there is evidence of membership dropping or other signs of stagnation.

How do you restrict membership if its not even properly defined in the first place? Actually, in the laws theres only a definition of a temple resident member but the fact that ISKCON has changed into a congregational society has to be taken in account.
Stagnation may be there in some places, not everywhere. SRS most probably refers primarily to Hungary where ISKCON fares pretty well.

>>]Youre entitled to your opinion.

> to restrict a membership in the situations when there is evidence of membership dropping or other signs of stagnation.

>>How do you restrict membership if its not even properly defined in the first place?

That is the point, why would you make a definition anything more then what Prabhupada did? Did he at any point emphasized disunity and exclusion?

That what he said:

"Disunity between individual souls is so strong within this material world that even in a society of K'e5'f1'eba consciousness, members sometimes appear disunited due to their having different opinions and leaning toward material things. Actually, in K'e5'f1'eba consciousness there cannot be two opinions. There is only one goal: to serve K'e5'f1'eba to ones best ability. If there is some disagreement over service, such disagreement is to be taken as spiritual. Those who are actually engaged in the service of the Supreme Personality of Godhead cannot be disunited in any circumstance."

Let us issue IskconID cards, and those who do not have them are not with us... (Would Prabhupada ever do such a thing?)

As I said, times have changed. ISKCON is not anymore a monastic-only group. Wider membership needs to be defined. Also, ISKCON isnt the only GV group outside India as it used to be 30 years ago. Since other GV groups have allegiance to their founders and lineages and follow their standards, its quite natural for ISKCON to do the same.
And if someone doesnt like one group, he can join another one. Its not about restricting or disuniting devotees at all, rather the opposite - everyone has more choices nowadays. Not that everyone must be with us, rather let him be with Sri Krsna and Sri Caitanya who came to unite all Vaisnava sampradayas. Good fences make good neighbors and then good cooperation will be possible. Thats the idea of World Vaisnava Association.

Besides the fact that it make a good number of Prabhupadas disciples who were divorced and approved in it by Prabhupada non-members.

Besides the point is that if it is created to support the idea of WVA -- I certainly would not want to participate in it. I believe that ISKCON must function as WVA, and it will eventually be.

It is not true that ISKCON was the only GV org. Devotees in London visited GM building there.

In india there were hundreds of different GV groups during HDG Srila Prabhupadas times. What did he do? Did he ever build the fences up? No, he went to Lalita Prasad and offered him to build a temple at the birth place of BVT.

When he expelled 4 sannyasis out of ISKCON, he made it clear that one can be outside of ISKCON and be his disciple, they eventually returned. Why invent this complicated institutional structure that is just the opposite to what SP wanted? I just feel it is not just irrational, it is also counterproductive spiritually.

Why not but ISKCON must first emerge as a natural leader among all Vaisnava groups. If you look around the most dynamic churches are the best organized ones. Kripamoya P. made one PP presentation with examples from the history of Anglican Church. He contrasted Wesleys organized followers with another important preacher, whose followers werent organized.

Yes, the London Sri Vasudev GM. I meant active groups.

Srila Prabhupada was trying to get others to cooperate with ISKCON but he didnt get much positive experiences. So he made some arrangements to limit his discipless association with his Godbrothers (see the book Siksa Outside ISKCON? by SRS). So if someone wants to be called his follower, he should be ready to follow his standards and this is formally expressed by membership entailing specific rights and obligations. I dont see anything complicated, etc. about it. Its natural.

I guess the main complication is that Prabhupada did not do it or stressed it as important or even helpful... ISKCON is already a leader among other groups in the west and in india. Where Prabhupada states that we should do it?

>Those who followed such obligations, he said, would have the right to be officially accepted as being connected to Srila Prabhupada in our disciplic succession

It means taking initiation from spiritual master (following 4 reg. and 16 rounds) is not sufficient to connect a devotee to Srila Prabhupada and Guru Parampara. One needs to do other things as well like giving 10% of income to ISKCON, bowing down to line of authoriy etc. etc. so what is wrong if Narayana Maharaja takes pity on such fallen souls and reinitiates them and connects them to Guru parampara.

I will not be surprised if soon NM (out of compassion) makes a public announcement that all such devotees who have fallen out of parampara should contact him so that they can be reinitiated and connected back to parampara.

>being subject to the disciplinary and judicial system of ISKCON

Say there is a GbC resolution that devotees can not eat chocolate (1991)
A GbC man (say) BB. Paramguru swami Maharaja is eating chocolate
That means that BB. Paramguru swami Maharaja is not following disciplinary system of ISKCON
Thus we have a non-ISKCON member on the GBC board (already).

Now I am not pointing fingers... but it was not me who raised this issue was it?

Who wants to contribute to the list of GBC members who is known to be eating chocolate (that is against the GBC resolution).

> I guess the main complication is that Prabhupada did not do it or stressed it as important or even helpful...

As I said, 30 years back was quite a different situation. I wrote (original is in Czech):

The basic problem is that without a defined membership theres no responsibility of anyone toward anyone and one cant actually speak about a common mission. Without definitions of rights and duties of members therell be problems. One is represented by people who want to only take advantages but dont want to contribute (Kripamoya dasa calls them half-chicken). Another one represent those who unrightfully pretend to be members and damage the movements reputation. Example: http://www.thaindian.com/forums/general-discussions/3092::regarding-the-fake-iskcon-temple.html
How to stop them if anyone can claim to be a member?

You can check the refs and other sources at the end of my paper, theyre in English, just like parts of the paper itself: http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/library/clenstvi.zip

> ISKCON is already a leader among other groups in the west and in india.

It may be the biggest GV group but it still has enough internal problems to take its leadership role in spreading sankirtan movement coordinated with other groups. This is my view for the future. How far future is hard to say.

re chocolate: The GBC man will have to choose what he prefers. 8)

dweller:

I mentioned that as per the ISKCON Law one should give 50%, not just 10% which is actually a significant alleviation.

Bowing down to line of authority is done by every devotee every day by bowing to Srila Prabhupada and ones guru. Its also in the Law:

7.2.1.4 Vows of Disciple
All new initiates must take the following vows at the time of initiation: 1. To chant a minimum of sixteen rounds daily without
fail. 2. To strictly follow the four regulative principles of no meat eating, no illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling. 3. To accept the
order of the spiritual master as ones life and soul. 4. To accept discipleship into the Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya-sampradaya through the
Founder-Acarya of ISKCON and to remain faithful to their order and teachings. 5. To remain faithful to Srila Prabhupadas order by
maintaining loyalty to ISKCON and its ultimate managing authority, the GBC.

> fallen out of parampara

If you mean a falldown, thats not a separation from the parampara. Rejection of/by ones guru is.

[quote][cite] rasa108:[/cite]Seems to me a rather heavy-handed approach that may put off devotees, new and old, from participating and feeling like they are being judged (even more than exists at the moment).[/quote]

[br]I am speaking as complete newcomer, practically outsider. I cant say I have had much experience with ISKCON or the devotees. But from what I did see, it struck me as a bit too liberal, I have found it confusing.[br]

[br]I am in favor of more structure, more organization, stricter and readily available rules and consequences for transgression. I think it would help against many false expectations, assumptions and other complications that naturally arise out of a Im-okay-youre-okay liberal attitude.[br]

[br]I dont feel judged by such a "heavy-handed approach" at all. This is not because I think I would be able to comply with it, because I cant. I wish for clarity, knowing exactly what I am getting myself into, what exactly my obligations would be, what qualifications are required for what.[br]
[br]Without such an approach, I think it is hard to take anything seriously.[br]

[br]Scriptures make some strong points too:[br]

[br][quote]Temples and monasteries should be constructed for the preaching of spiritual consciousness or Kruc0u803 su803 nu803 a consciousness, [b]not to provide free hotels for persons who are useful for neither material nor spiritual purposes[/b]. Temples and monasteries should be [b]strictly off limits to worthless clubs of crazy men[/b]. In the Kru803 su803 nu803 a consciousness movement we welcome everyone who agrees at least to follow the movements regulative principles '97 no illicit sex, no intoxication, no meat-eating and no gambling. In the temples and monasteries, [b]gatherings of unnecessary, rejected, lazy fellows should be strictly disallowed[/b]. The temples and monasteries should be used [b]exclusively by devotees who are serious about spiritual advancement in Kru803 su803 nu803 a consciousness[/b].
SB 7.13.8, pp[/quote][br]

[br][quote]Transcendental devotional service cannot be complete and cannot be relishable without the association of devotees. We have therefore established the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. Anyone who is trying to be aloof from this Krishna Consciousness Society and yet engage in Kru803 su803 nu803 a consciousness is living in a great hallucination, for this is not possible. [...] In our Krishna Consciousness Society we have full engagement twenty-four hours a day. Every moment of our time is always busily engaged in the service of the Lord. This is called the incessant flow of devotional service.
SB 4.9.11, pp[/quote][br]

>Those who followed such obligations, he said, would have the right to be officially accepted as being connected to Srila Prabhupada in our disciplic succession;

All this stuff is very good but the problem is that as per this proposal if someone can not give 10% of his income to society, he is not connected to Srila Prabhupada and guru parampara despite being properly initiated and chanting and following four reg. This is philosophically incorrect and apasampradaya. It puts money above everything else.

In India, there are thousands of devotees who are initiated by ISKCON gurus and follow all the principles, but they dont give 10% of their income and most of them dont know who SRS is and who GBC is. According to above definition of SRS they all are not connected to parampara. And I find it not only offensive but rather insulting to all those thousands of sincere souls.

So these devotees who are initiated for a decade and chanting, following reg. principles and serving their gurus, I wonder if ISKCON gurus will have the courage to look in their eyes and tell them that they are not even connected to parampara.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite] 5. To remain faithful to Srila Prabhupadas order by
maintaining loyalty to ISKCON and its ultimate managing authority, the GBC.[/quote]

There was nothing like that in my initiation ceremony (2004). I made no vow of loyalty to ISKCON or the GBC. Srila Prabhupadas mission statement for Iskcon was emphasized though.[Br][br]

[Quote]> fallen out of parampara[br][br]

If you mean a falldown, thats not a separation from the parampara. Rejection of/by ones guru is.[/quote]

Is that to say were connected to the parampara by diksa guru or by siksa guru? If a diksa guru falls or improperly rejects a disciple, can can the devotee remain connected to the parampara by taking shelter of Srila Prabhupada?

[quote][cite] Baker:[/cite]I wish for clarity, knowing exactly what I am getting myself into, what exactly my obligations would be, what qualifications are required for what.[br]
[br]Without such an approach, I think it is hard to take anything seriously.[br][/quote][br][/quote] Actually clarity of the membership is a good thing. Somehow in the times of Prabhupada it was quite clear cut in or out. Now it is not quite clear at all. I guess we are just in disagreement about the details of definition.

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite]
[Quote]> fallen out of parampara[br][br]

If you mean a falldown, thats not a separation from the parampara. Rejection of/by ones guru is.[/quote]

Is that to say were connected to the parampara by diksa guru or by siksa guru? If a diksa guru falls or improperly rejects a disciple, can can the devotee remain connected to the parampara by taking shelter of Srila Prabhupada?[/quote] Actually ISKCON is quite liberal about these things, [br] According to SAC:[br]Scripture, tradition, and ISKCON law indicate that guru-disciple relationships are individual and cannot be mandated, as long as they fall within the boundary of guru, sadhu, and sastra. Whom an individual considers his prominent guru is a matter of the heart. No individual or institution does well to attempt to dictate to a devotee what faith he must have in his diksa-guru simply on the basis of institutional status. There is etiquette to be maintained, but faith is ultimately a private matter.

>I am speaking as complete newcomer, practically outsider. I cant say I have had much experience with ISKCON or the devotees. But from what I did see, it struck me as >a bit too liberal, I have found it confusing.

No doubt this is true and there does need to be structure....as you will find out when you have more experience, this needs to be done in a way that will not offend devotees (who are not neccessarily following all these proposed prerequisites by SRS) but still consider themselves connected (i.e., following 4 regs, chanting 16 rounds, doing some service, faithfull to Guru etc.) to Srila Prabhupada in the dispciplic succession - the real point is that mostly these prerequisites are not being followed by those who are currently in ISKCON (including the management members - Temple Presidents etc.) but are still considered ISKCON members.

Here is more from the official ISKCON News website article - "....The feedback to date seems to indicate that the "membership issue" needs delicate handling -- or it may divide more than it unites." http://news.iskcon.com/node/2386/2009-11-15/iskcon_leaders_grapple_defining_who_member

>I am in favor of more structure, more organization, stricter and readily available rules and consequences for transgression. I think it would help against many false >expectations, assumptions and other complications that naturally arise out of a Im-okay-youre-okay liberal attitude.

There are very clear rules set out by Srila Prabhupada as has been mentioned in your quote - "In the Kuc0u7771 u7779 u7751 a consciousness movement we welcome everyone who agrees at least to follow the movements regulative principles '97 no illicit sex, no intoxication, no meat-eating and no gambling." - many many devotees follow these principles and chant 16 rounds and are faithful to Srila Prabhupada and render service to the temple etc. (but live outside and dont neccessarily contribute 10% of their income and may have been divorced in the past etc.)...according to these propositions they would NOT be considered a member of ISKCON, which is clearly not correct according to Srila Prabhupada in your quote.

>"...Anyone who is trying to be aloof from this Krishna Consciousness Society and yet engage in Ku7771 u7779 u7751 a consciousness is living in a great hallucination, for this is not >possible."

Srila Prabhupada refers to another situation....I speak about devotees who associate with other devotees and render service to the temple, not those who are totally aloof - that is a different thing.

What about this?

[quote][cite]>>> Ref. VedaBase => Room Conversation -- December 13, 1970, Indore, Srila Prabhupada:[/cite]... And in India weve introduced a program, our membership program, so that we can go on distributing these literatures. And that membership program, there are four types of membership. One is life membership. Life membership means the member is entitled to all the books that we have printed plus all the books we will print in the future, plus a lifetime subscription to our magazine, Back to Godhead. And the member is entitled to stay at any one of our branches throughout the world free and if he happens to travel abroad or in India. We will have our branches. So that life membership fee is 1,111 rupees. And then we have donor membership. The donor member is entitled to all the books that have been printed, a lifetime subscription to our magazine, but he does not get the books in the future. That is 555 rupees. And subscriber membership, lifetime subscription to our magazine, which is 222 rupees. Or there is membership, yearly subscription to our magazine. In this way were trying to recruit members that support our movement. This movement is being supported just by literature. So in this way we can flood the whole world with Krsna consciousness and then therell be a change. If we want to see a change in the world, then we have to distribute knowledge of Krsna in this way. You are welcome to become a member. And also your friends. Tell them about our membership programs.[/quote]

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]Actually clarity of the membership is a good thing. Somehow in the times of Prabhupada it was quite clear cut in or out. Now it is not quite clear at all. I guess we are just in disagreement about the details of definition.[/quote]

[br]I suppose some things went without saying back then, could be taken for granted. Just like in the traditional Vedic culture, many things probably went without saying.[br]
[br]But when a religious institution tries to establish itself outside of its own native culture, even in a hostile environment, probably a lot more defining and specifying is needed, if that institution is to survive and maintain a certain level of quality and relevance.[br]

> proposal if someone can not give 10% of his income to society, he is not connected to Srila Prabhupada and guru parampara despite being properly initiated and chanting and following four reg. This is philosophically incorrect and apasampradaya. It puts money above everything else.

I guess 10% could be made less for extremely poor devotees or the contribution could be nonmonetary.
But usually these poor village devotees are eager to give more than they can afford.

> In India, there are thousands of devotees who are initiated by ISKCON gurus and follow all the principles, but they dont give 10% of their income and most of them dont know who SRS is and who GBC is.

If they dont know what GBC is they should be informed.

> Is that to say were connected to the parampara by diksa guru or by siksa guru?

By diksa guru. But everyone can be inspired by a parampara and follow it as far as he can even without any formalities. Its like full-fledged study & degree vs. audition study (not sure if thats the proper term - I mean being an auditor, attending classes but not exams, etc.).

> If a diksa guru falls or improperly rejects a disciple, can can the devotee remain connected to the parampara by taking shelter of Srila Prabhupada?

These cases dont terminate the diksa connection as per Krsna Bhajanamrta.
Taking shelter of Srila Prabhupada without diksa is analogical to what auditor student does.

Life Membership is the only well defined membership in ISKCON so far.

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite]What about this?

[quote][cite]>>> Ref. VedaBase => Room Conversation -- December 13, 1970, Indore, Srila Prabhupada:[/cite]... And in India weve introduced a program, our membership program, so that we can go on distributing these literatures. And that membership program, there are four types of membership. One is life membership. Life membership means the member is entitled to all the books that we have printed plus all the books we will print in the future, plus a lifetime subscription to our magazine, Back to Godhead. And the member is entitled to stay at any one of our branches throughout the world free and if he happens to travel abroad or in India. We will have our branches. So that life membership fee is 1,111 rupees. And then we have donor membership. The donor member is entitled to all the books that have been printed, a lifetime subscription to our magazine, but he does not get the books in the future. That is 555 rupees. And subscriber membership, lifetime subscription to our magazine, which is 222 rupees. Or there is membership, yearly subscription to our magazine. In this way were trying to recruit members that support our movement. This movement is being supported just by literature. So in this way we can flood the whole world with Krsna consciousness and then therell be a change. If we want to see a change in the world, then we have to distribute knowledge of Krsna in this way. You are welcome to become a member. And also your friends. Tell them about our membership programs.[/quote][/quote]

Seems this is another membership and not the one referred to by Sivarama Swami

Yes, Baker, thats the idea.

Pandu das:What about this?
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Room Conversation -- December 13, 1970, Indore, Srila Prabhupada:... And in India weve introduced a program, our membership program, so that we can go on distributing these literatures. And that membership program, there are four types of membership. One is life membership. Life membership means the member is entitled to all the books that we have printed plus all the books we will print in the future, plus a lifetime subscription to our magazine, Back to Godhead. And the member is entitled to stay at any one of our branches throughout the world free and if he happens to travel abroad or in India. We will have our branches. So that life membership fee is 1,111 rupees. And then we have donor membership. The donor member is entitled to all the books that have been printed, a lifetime subscription to our magazine, but he does not get the books in the future. That is 555 rupees. And subscriber membership, lifetime subscription to our magazine, which is 222 rupees. Or there is membership, yearly subscription to our magazine. In this way were trying to recruit members that support our movement. This movement is being supported just by literature. So in this way we can flood the whole world with Krsna consciousness and then therell be a change. If we want to see a change in the world, then we have to distribute knowledge of Krsna in this way. You are welcome to become a member. And also your friends. Tell them about our membership programs.
rasa 108 said:
Seems this is another membership and not the one referred to by Sivarama Swami

<<< >>>
seems this is a "membership" that ISKCON now refuses to admit that is obliged to. as a person who four times bought life memberships, i know for a fact that ISKCON management will not ever make good on their obligations because, by and large, there is a "pounds, shillings, pence" motive. the ISKCON legal subtrfuge, their attempt to update the definition of "life member", is an attempt to remove themselves from any past obligations

by extracting as much money as you possibly can from the indian community, who really gains?

by not sending out the milk sweets to life members as promised, who gains? the pujari who eats it? really

by not sending us our BTG every month (or is it only 5 times a year now?), who really benefits and who really gains?

by not sending us all BBT books in print (as promised in the 1972 and 1974 life memberships), who really gains?

someone ask maharaj for me, ISKCON refuses to respond to my pleas to ISKCON Resolve any more. thanks.

> four times bought life memberships

How? At once for yourself and others or 4x for yourself at various times? In the latter case, if the goods werent delivered even after a reminder, why did you buy it 3x again? I cant imagine doing that myself. Like with any other contract.

> by extracting as much money as you possibly can from the indian community, who really gains?

The donor who gives to Krsna seva in good faith. But if cheating by devotee collectors is involved its obviously counterproductive in the long run and less money will be collected.

What i find interesting is about such rules is that generally these things are made to control us.........Brahmanas in my humble opinion should be empowered by their own desire to please krishna.....The GBC is for spiritual encouragement,spiritual guidance and sastric deliniation.....Brahminical culture.....Full stop...Why should an ecclesiastical body hope to keep control? Sounds like the white mans disease.....if i cant control ...manipulate it....if i cant influence it .......kill it!

When one takes initiation he is part of iskcon family........voluntary ,freedom to serve krishna, in ones own time ,according to ones mood ,place and individual circumstances ......Such sad rules of Sivarama swami ,will they encourage dynamic devotional service from highly gifted sincere persons?.....No it is an attempt to make iskcon a mundane religion like the mormons......Which intrinsiacly it is not
Will a powerful person like bhaktivinoda takura who had two wifes fit within such mundane rules of control?I think not.....everything is not based at this level on trying to control devotees.... in my opinion it is who is the best devotee to perform the best service....which is to please krishna!.....Not wether he has divorced his wife?
Actually having been married several times ....my third wife is the first real female devotee .The others were very materially motivated!
So i told them serve krishna, chant 16 rounds or see you later....Most women in the western world find such things extremely differcult.

Also we personally met several indian life members who have purchased life membership....4 times at least....i still send my junior devotees to them to make it more....They are sincere wealthy devotees who personally met Srila Prabhupada and after they are forced to sit down and listen about the sublime moment....They usually give a donation again....at least.

Sri Govinda Prabhu, did you listen to the presentation?

Mormon organization is used as an example. Regardless of what they teach, their management is efficient. Sometimes I think how far would ISKCON be if organized as Mormons or JWs.

The divorce can be an indirect measure of the Vedic lifestyle. Traditional marriages (using jyotish, etc.) hardly ever break. If the person disregards that, he may tend to disregard other things as well. Id definitely prefer a pakka Vaisnava grhastha as TP.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]Mormon organization is used as an example. Regardless of what they teach, their management is efficient. Sometimes I think how far would ISKCON be if organized as Mormons or JWs[/quote] God save me from it.

I have actually spent several years around Mormons as an "investigator". I also functioned as their teacher for the local language, sometimes translated at the Sunday service or otherwise and partcipated at some of their organisational meetings.

Their whole endeavor was filled with efficiency, and this is what I liked so much about them. They really seemed to be sure of what they were doing, they knew why and how. There were schedules, plans and goals for individual meetings, homework. As an "investigator" (as they call a person who has an interest in their religion), I felt taken care of. Things were expected of me, goals set - like what and how much scriptures to study, what to think about, what to do, and things were then discussed in individual meetings (two missionaries per one investigator). It was all very engaging and reasonably serious.

It was a really nice experience. I just couldnt accept their theology.

ccd: I tend to think that efficiency is what SP had in his mind when he said:

'93'91If all my disciples will fully cooperate with me, then we can take over the whole world in eighteen days.'92'93 (TKG VP homage 1993)

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]ccd: I tend to think that efficiency is what SP had in his mind when he said:

'93'91If all my disciples will fully cooperate with me, then we can take over the whole world in eighteen days.'92'93 (TKG VP homage 1993)[/quote] It does not sound like an instruction for efficiency or organization, rather an encouragement to act in complete surrender to the gurus mission. Being procedural and formal about membership, really reduces your chances to take over the word in 18 days;-) (maybe we do not want to take over the world anymore, in 1972 devotees ACTUALLY believed that in some few years everyone would chant or at least know well how... honestly the best strategy to take over the world...)

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]Mormon organization is used as an example. Regardless of what they teach, their management is efficient. Sometimes I think how far would ISKCON be if organized as Mormons or JWs[/quote] God save me from it.[/quote]

[br]On the other side of the efficiency issue ... Mormons and JWs operate within the framework of "there is only one lifetime for action, and if you dont get it right now, youll burn in hell for all eternity" (in Mormonism, there is a kind of purgatory, but one is advised not to wait so long); they operate within the framework that all spiritual advancement or benefit is basically to be gained and to culminate in this one lifetime. They have some expectation within how many months a person is supposed to get baptized. Its a bit like a college course, with a syllabus and time limits.[br]
[br]I think this philosophical understanding of only one lifetime for action is what makes various practical forms of efficiency possible.[br]

[br]Whereas in Vaishnavism, as far as I understood, this is not the case, because the idea is that devotional service is something that takes many many lifetimes to perfect. As such, Mormon strategies of efficiency are rather extraneous.[br]

Efficiency is not something I am against in preaching, conflict resolution and even in spiirtual care. It is a corporate membership model, where it becomes a sunday religion and atmanivedanam is replaced with 10%. BTW we are one lifetime group, it is others, such as Sri and Madhvas who would put us in two to three lifetimes due to adhikara by birth. We do have to finish business in this lifetime, but we can not expect it as a sure deal or we will not finish it...

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]BTW we are one lifetime group, it is others, such as Sri and Madhvas who would put us in two to three lifetimes due to adhikara by birth. We do have to finish business in this lifetime, but we can not expect it as a sure deal or we will not finish it...[/quote]

Please say more about this.[br]

[br]How is GV a "one lifetime group"? Isnt there the idea that generally, it is only after many many lifetimes of pious credits that one steps on the path of bhakti at all - as opposed to starting from the very beginning in this lifetime?[br]

[br]What happens if we dont "finish business" in this lifetime?[br]

[br]Would thinking "If I dont make it out of the cycle of birth and death in this lifetime, then in the next" make people so lazy that they wouldnt start on the path of bhakti at all, or at least wouldnt commit themselves to it seriously?

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]ccd: I tend to think that efficiency is what SP had in his mind when he said:

'93'91If all my disciples will fully cooperate with me, then we can take over the whole world in eighteen days.'92'93 (TKG VP homage 1993)[/quote]

I thought that quote (1972) run more like that:

'93If you devotees only had complete faith that Krishna is the Supreme Personality of
Godhead, we can take over the whole world and make it Krishna conscious in a period of only 18 days.'94

> It is a corporate membership model, where it becomes a sunday religion and atmanivedanam is replaced with 10%.

Thats the minimal level course. Who forces us to take it? Many Christian saints took the 100% atmanivedana course.

> it is only after many many lifetimes of pious credits that one steps on the path of bhakti at all

Its a bit more complex. Material piety is not the cause of bhakti. Ajnata sukrti is. Related info is on our site.

> What happens if we dont "finish business" in this lifetime?

BG 6.37-45

> Would thinking "If I dont make it out of the cycle of birth and death in this lifetime, then in the next" make people so lazy that they wouldnt start on the path of bhakti at all, or at least wouldnt commit themselves to it seriously?

Many people when told about reincarnation actually like it since they think they can enjoy life after life. However, they have to realize that suffering eclipses the enjoyment. Then their laziness is gone.

> What happens if we dont "finish business" in this lifetime?
BG 6.37-45

Thank you, I am familiar with that. But my question was to CCD saying "We do have to finish business in this lifetime" - Why do we have to finish in this lifetime (what happens if we dont)?
This sounds like a threat to me.

The path of bhakti requires quite a bit of material welfare and material expertise, otherwise one cannot afford to pay for the various expenses connected with visiting temples and becoming initiated.
Personally, I dont think I will ever have enough money in this life time to afford these things, so for me, quite a big portion of the prescribed practices is an impossibility.
A favorable rebirth seems the only option for me.

>"We do have to finish business in this lifetime" - Why do we have to finish in this lifetime (what happens if we dont)?
>This sounds like a threat to me.

This is very very serious question. The answer is that you must consider it possible and aim at it.

If you fail you will be given a second chance, but you should not count on it. No threat.

It is a serious question, not a joke. the attitude should not be in one life. It should be now.

> The answer is that you must consider it possible and aim at it.

Why "must"?
On the grounds of what should I consider it possible?

NoD 18 - it is technically known as hopefullness or ASA-bandha, based on this you have to arrive to samutkaNThA. Otherwise you can not be _actually_ attached to the holy names. In other words, without a hope (that you get if you are hopeless/hoep against hope) you will have no full determination (that is how you achieve Krisna consciousness) and thus you will not be steady in chanting. But even a drop of this conviction is sufficient to protect you from the greatest fear, so do not worry, no pressure;-)

Before you bounce it back, read it again in NoD at least.

Rasa108:
There are very clear rules set out by Srila Prabhupada as has been mentioned in your quote - "In the Kuc0u7771 u7779 u7751 a consciousness movement we welcome everyone who agrees at least to follow the movements regulative principles '97 no illicit sex, no intoxication, no meat-eating and no gambling." - many many devotees follow these principles and chant 16 rounds and are faithful to Srila Prabhupada and render service to the temple etc. (but live outside and dont neccessarily contribute 10% of their income and may have been divorced in the past etc.)...according to these propositions they would NOT be considered a member of ISKCON

SRS:Those who followed such obligations, he said, would have the right to be officially accepted as being connected to Srila Prabhupada in our disciplic succession

I am not worried about the membership of society, they can have devotees who are legally members in papers and can control the temples and associated property and can become gurus and reside in mayapur etc. The problem is SRS is challenging the connection with parampara and Srila Prabhupada. According to his definition, even if the devotees are chanting rounds and following reg. principles, despite having initiation ceremony, still they will be considered not connected to parampara because they fail on some other criteria like 10% money and past divorce.

This is going to create an identity crisis for many devotees imo.

I agree with Dweller. Somehow it seems we are becoming too expert on alienating members, instead of creating various additional memberships that are variations on life membership model expanded to the congregation.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]It is a serious question, not a joke. the attitude should not be in one life. It should be now.[/quote]

As in - Where, if not here? When, if not now? Who, if not I?[br]

[br]But then there is that not so small issue of blind faith ...[br]

[br][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]NoD 18 - it is technically known as hopefullness or ASA-bandha, based on this you have to arrive to samutkaNThA. Otherwise you can not be _actually_ attached to the holy names. In other words, without a hope (that you get if you are hopeless/hoep against hope) you will have no full determination (that is how you achieve Krisna consciousness) and thus you will not be steady in chanting. [/quote]

I know the passage from NoD, you mentioned it before and I marked it with a post-it. And yes Ive read it again just now.[br]

[br][quote]But even a drop of this conviction is sufficient to protect you from the greatest fear, so do not worry, no pressure;-)[/quote]

Until Sri Govinda Das comes in and tells me that I am "obviously cut to a pattern and will be unable to fully understand Krishnas devotees" - never ever ever, right, Sri Govinda Das, I should just forget about it all, right?

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]I agree with Dweller. Somehow it seems we are becoming too expert on alienating members, instead of creating various additional memberships that are variations on life membership model expanded to the congregation.[/quote]

In the local Hare Krishna magazine, a brahmacari wrote that the proper attitude of a devotee toward ISKCON should be:[br]

[br]"Ask not what ISKCON can do for you, ask only what you can do for ISKCON."

[quote][cite] Baker:[/cite]In the local Hare Krishna magazine, a brahmacari wrote that the proper attitude of a devotee toward ISKCON should be:[br]

[br]"Ask not what ISKCON can do for you, ask only what you can do for ISKCON."[/quote]

I dont disagree with this - any service to this great movement should be encouraged but also recognised and nurtured rather than unrealistic definitions imposed.[br]
[br]
Lets avoid alienating participating devotees who are following the principles and chanting 16 and rendering some service (but may not be able to contribute 10% or may have been divorced etc.) - according to this proposal these devotees would NOT be connected to Srila Prabhupada in our disciplic succession and NOT a member of ISKCON. [br]
[br]
Hopefully the final outcome will be more inclusive with multi-levelled membership as previously mentioned.

> "Ask not what ISKCON can do for you, ask only what you can do for ISKCON."

The modified famous JFK quote, isnt it? I deal with it toward the end of my paper. You can try google translator (Czech>English).

rasa, dweller: Could you write to SRS to get his direct answer and post it here?

My dear bhaktine baker,concerning your ability to understand devotees,since you are cut from a pattern....Though it sounds and seems to short change you ......My veiw is a little different from the other devotees generally on pariprashnena.com.I am a sankirtan devotee who is trained to see the strengths and weaknesses of others very quickly.And then act!
We are trained to be more intuitive,more dynamically personally involved to engage the conditioned souls..in krishnas sankirtan movment ......wether they want to or not!....We are prone to rip and tear at a problem ,rather than being diplomatic.
We would suggest that since bhakta paul howard....also known as Pandu das is unfavourable to his guru he is committing guru aparadha.everytime he portrays his ex-guru it is a bad light....hence he should bow down to his guru and beg for forgiveness....not use his spiritual name anymore .....but because he is not a sankirtan devotee...unfortunately he is not so sincere....he thinks his opinion is valid,when it is up to krishna .....krishna will adjust things personally in this dynamic spiritual society.He does not tolerate offensive behaviour to his gurus,because they have sacrificed everything for him.Pandu das has been around for 15 odd years.....but is unable to appreciate his guru ....who took his sins,to give him the chance to advance spiritually...He has no idea.........so it is very differcult to understand the mind and heart of a sincere devotee...my bhaktine baker.

My dear Veda prabhu you are indeed correct about marriages in our society...My daughter is 11 years old,she will be a wonderful young devottee to marry....why because she has had wonderful training.She is the next generation...but those future generations should be more cultured as many like my daughter have grown up within a cultured environment .
Iskcon is at the very start of its establishment...as is shown by its struggle with Gurus being competent enough to maintain the societys growth spirts,while being able to maintain a quality sanyasis ashram.
I am very positive this will happen within my life span, and then eventually our society shall indeed create uttama adhikara devotees which the world as a whole desperately needs.
But that is in the future we are in dire need especially in the western world of pure first class women and men ,to get married become first class devotee grihasta couples .Who have huge amonts of krishna -concious children.
Which in my mind would strengthen the general iskcon society dramatically .However at present we have a dire shortage of qualified Temple presidents and managers.We seem to be creating even fewer competent managers who are able to create and maintain a sankirtan mood within a temple environment.Hence upon personally investigating several temples their finances are in dire circumstance because they have no sankirtan devotees at all.....Yes some temple presidents have had several different wifes.....as is the mode within the material world......however we are so short of 20 to 30 year devotees to accept these very important positions of responsibility in my veiw....hare krishna Veda prabhu.

[quote][cite] Baker:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]It is a serious question, not a joke. the attitude should not be in one life. It should be now.[/quote]

As in - Where, if not here? When, if not now? Who, if not I?[br]

[br]But then there is that not so small issue of blind faith ...[br]

[br][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]NoD 18 - it is technically known as hopefullness or ASA-bandha, based on this you have to arrive to samutkaNThA. Otherwise you can not be _actually_ attached to the holy names. In other words, without a hope (that you get if you are hopeless/hoep against hope) you will have no full determination (that is how you achieve Krisna consciousness) and thus you will not be steady in chanting. [/quote]

I know the passage from NoD, you mentioned it before and I marked it with a post-it. And yes Ive read it again just now.[br]

[br][quote]But even a drop of this conviction is sufficient to protect you from the greatest fear, so do not worry, no pressure;-)[/quote]

Until Sri Govinda Das comes in and tells me that I am "obviously cut to a pattern and will be unable to fully understand Krishnas devotees" - never ever ever, right, Sri Govinda Das, I should just forget about it all, right?[/quote] Looking at sri_govinda_das_dds comments -- since she did it already (and called you names) you must feel under pressure to become a full member so that in the most important point of the discussion you could just pull out your big membership ID card and show it to her. Just in case. It should work. It could be that her local NZ GBC will not issue her one for her antivegan stand, so you will win the debate in a second. Is it right?
[br]Instead of engaging devotees in various services leaders want to introduce restrictive ID cards; these days devotees have to look for a service instead of being asked to do this or that seva. It is actually proper for seniors to engage junior, not for junior to go around taking on service (like that bhakta cleverly puts it, "Ask not what ISKCON can do for you, ask only what you can do for ISKCON."). No it is "Ask not what ISKCON can do for you, ask only who can engage you in the service in ISKCON." If you are engaged in service, there is no issue of blind faith, because you are actually in the shelter. If you are not under a shelter, that means you need to have someone who can engage you in the service. That is what is lacking, not membership cards.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]> "Ask not what ISKCON can do for you, ask only what you can do for ISKCON."

The modified famous JFK quote, isnt it? I deal with it toward the end of my paper. You can try google translator (Czech>English).[/quote]

Do you mean section 4.8? I read it myself as good as I could (my native language is a Slavic language as well, and I speak and understand another one), and I also google-translated it.[br]

[br]In Slovene, we say "bhakta", we dont have a native word. But I see that in Czech, it is "oddan'fd" - the devoted one. This is very nice! So by that, the Slovene would be "vdani" or "predani".

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]Looking at sri_govinda_das_dds comments -- since she did it already (and called you names) you must feel under pressure to become a full member so that in the most important point of the discussion you could just pull out your big membership ID card and show it to her. Just in case. It should work. It could be that her local NZ GBC will not issue her one for her antivegan stand, so you will win the debate in a second. Is it right?[/quote]

I agree, there is this sort of pressure and there is the hankering for a formalized solution to interpersonal conflicts.[br]

[br]If I told Sri Govinda das that I refuse to believe his (her?) unfavorable judgment of me and that I refuse to settle for it (or at least thought so to myself), would that not be disregard of a senior devotee?

Yes, section 4.8.

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]
We would suggest that since bhakta paul howard....also known as Pandu das is unfavourable to his guru he is committing guru aparadha.everytime he portrays his ex-guru it is a bad light....hence he should bow down to his guru and beg for forgiveness....not use his spiritual name anymore .....but because he is not a sankirtan devotee...unfortunately he is not so sincere....he thinks his opinion is valid,when it is up to krishna .....krishna will adjust things personally in this dynamic spiritual society.He does not tolerate offensive behaviour to his gurus,because they have sacrificed everything for him.Pandu das has been around for 15 odd years.....but is unable to appreciate his guru ....who took his sins,to give him the chance to advance spiritually...He has no idea.........so it is very differcult to understand the mind and heart of a sincere devotee...my bhaktine baker.[/quote]

You just cant let it rest, can you? You say "portrays his ex-guru in a bad light," but all the events I described actually happened. Does truth not matter to you at all? [br][br]

I started a blog back in 2005 to document my experiences pursuing Krishna consciousness. At that time things were going very well, but a few months later the alleged child molester was invited to Gita-nagari and lavishly glorified by two big gurus, and things went bad in my relationships with BTSs disciples as a result of it. During that time, I kept documenting the events, considering it all an important part of my experiences trying to become Krishna conscious. When a local BTS disciple discovered my blog, someone called BMS, and he in turn called me and ordered me to stop blogging or he would stop my brahmana training. He had told me previously that he doesnt read the Internet, and in this phone call he gave no indication that he had personally read anything I had written on my blog, so he apparently had judged the situation based on hearsay only.[br][br]
I was under the impression that adhering to the truth is the chief quality of a brahmana, and two days after this phone call was when I had the meeting where I found out that BMS had lied to me the previous week. So within about ten days time, BMS lied to me, ordered me to stop my honest documentation of my experiences in ISKCON, and then his lie was revealed along with a conspiracy by several brahmanas who had also directly lied to me. These events thoroughly spoiled my desire for brahmana initiation, since it was obviously a tool of mundane politics; but you say Im the one who is offensive. Man, you are sick in the head.[br][br]
Apparently sri_govinda_das thinks that to be a member of ISKCON one has to sacrifice his intelligence to suit the perverted cult agenda. [br][br]It reminds me of an "initiation" we had at camp when I was a kid, chanting "o wha tafu liam" repeatedly until enlightenment brought realization of the mantras meaning. You should try it.[br][br]
P.S. Ive been a contributer here for years, and I like coming here. I feel like I have something to offer and plenty to learn. But if I have to continue putting up with the kind of abuse Ive been getting from you and sometimes a few others, Im going to have to call it quits. Ive heard from Srila Prabhupada that one gets faith from associating with devotees, but the kind of association I sometimes get here, such as your quoted paragraph above, subverts my faith and makes me feel like Im just not meant for devotional service. Is that the kind of influence you want to be?

So please accept our humble suggestion and stop using your ex-spiritual name .....or go and serve your guru...Sorry is his name Bhakti marg swami....You seem to want to use the blessings of guru....without the Guru himself.Like a door mat....This is impersonal and truly offensive...Just change your user name to previous initiation ...Problem solved.Honest and genuine platform....then krishna can work through his devotees to benefit you....

By the way i am a Male devotee ....i am pleased to meet all of you .Hopefully my sad humble attempts to please krishna and my guru....will help some of you.I have the veiw because of the internet that it offers a unique opportunity to genuinely help younger devotees ....Hopefully my senior siksa devotees like ccd and Veda prabhu will be brutally honest in their attempts to benedict me also.But if you want to be cheated ....tell me .I will manifest my natural qualities as a psycophant.

My dear Bhaktine baker ...please accept my sincere wishes for serving sri sri radha govinda.I will not suggest anthing further hare krishna....but you have just proved what i had perceived was your actual inclination and mental deposition .Self -fulfilling prophecy .....almost.Such is the nature of our material disease.

sri_govinda_das, can you please start another question about whether or not Pandu is an offender or not? Then you can discuss it to your full satisfication without having to bring the topic into every conversation you participate in. This will also help to keep the discussion focused on the question at hand.

[quote][cite] deena:[/cite]sri_govinda_das, can you please start another question about whether or not Pandu is an offender or not? Then you can discuss it to your full satisfication without having to bring the topic into every conversation you participate in. This will also help to keep the discussion focused on the question at hand.[/quote] Second that.

"we are making life members here in india and getting good response. the membership plan is as follows:

a) LIFE MEMBER receives all our books thus far published as well as all future publications, as well as a lifetime subscription to Back to Godhead. he is also free to visit any of our temples, take prasdam there and stay there if he likes. price is 1,111 rupees (7 1/2 rupees per dollar).

b) DONOR MEMBER receives all out literature thus far published as well as a lifetime subscription to Back to Godhead. price is 555 rupees.

c) SUBSCRIBER MEMBER receives a lifetime subscription to Back to Godhead. price is 222 rupees.

d) COMMON MEMBER receives a one year subscription to back to Godhead. price is 33 rupees.

so this same system may be introduced in other parts." letter to rupanuga, october 28, 1970.

"i have read over the GBC memo and you make the following adjustment regarding membership charges. the comparison of india to that of usa is not the exchange value of rupees and dollars in the bank, but it is according to the purchasing power or manifest value, so practically one rupee is equal to one dollar by this calculation. therefore, simply change the sign from Rs. to $ and set the figure for life membership at $ 1,111, donor membership at $ 555, and suscriber membership at $ 222. an ordinary member should pay only $ 5.00, which covers one year subscription to our magazine. another thing is that WE WELCOME LIFE MEMBERS TO PARTICIPATE FULLY IN ALL OUR TEMPLE PROGRAMS ANYWHERE THEY MAY TRAVEL AND THEY MAY STAY IN THE TEMPLE WHERE THEY ARE VISITING."

letter to rupanuga, november 13, 1970

all im saying is that to change the definition of "life member" now to mean some kind of look the other way lapdog, who can only bother to tythe the church his biblical 10% quota, but who does exactly what he is told otherwise, regardless of its scriptural authenticity, that looks to breed the same kind of mindless killing fanatics the same plan did in the past. let the buyer beware !!!

The life member isnt the topic of this thread, it was introduces somewhere in the middle.

> who does exactly what he is told otherwise, regardless of its scriptural authenticity,

Wheres that suggested...?

veda said:
"The life member isnt the topic of this thread, it was introduces somewhere in the middle."

<<< >>>
but what constitutes "a member" most directly is, and as a life member, clearly "a member" of this organization by any other than the most sinister and diabolical self serving motivated thinking, im asking how it is than i can so easily be written of a "a member", when these new limiting parameters do not comply with the tenets offered those of us who sought to avail ourselves of Srila Prabhupadas lifelong guarantee that we would be hospitablly welcomed in His temples as long as they exist. if they no longer exist, then i guess all such contracts are null and void, but others should stop doing business as the same organization that can no longer be found to make good on its earlier promises. it goes much further than this also, including the selection of the temple president to be decided by "a vote of all the members of the temple" and not by a handful of senior most supporters of former failed attempts at the same process.

Janmastami das: Read the original article here - http://news.iskcon.com/node/2386/2009-11-15/iskcon_leaders_grapple_defining_who_member - the discussion is on ISKCON membership and not Life Membership, although the structured and clear cut nature of LM is appreciated :-)

rasa 108 said:

" the discussion is on ISKCON membership and not Life Membership, "

<<< >>>
and i again raise the point "do you propose that one can be a life member and not be a member/", and, if not, it is still most relevant.

[quote]a) LIFE MEMBER receives all our books thus far published as well as all future publications, as well as a lifetime subscription to Back to Godhead. he is also free to visit any of our temples, take prasdam there and stay there if he likes. price is 1,111 rupees (7 1/2 rupees per dollar).
[br]
[br]
b) DONOR MEMBER receives all our literature thus far published as well as a lifetime subscription to Back to Godhead. price is 555 rupees.
[br]
[br]
c) SUBSCRIBER MEMBER receives a lifetime subscription to Back to Godhead. price is 222 rupees.
[br]
[br]
d) COMMON MEMBER receives a one year subscription to back to Godhead. price is 33 rupees.[/quote]
[br]
None of these categories requires any spiritual standards but some of these people may also fall into the catergory of "ISKCON member" if they meet whatever spiritual requirements the GBC decide on. If you read the article by SRS then you will see what the discussion is here.

Life member basically means Life(time) supporter.

Otherwise, a complaint desk isnt here.

If any of you ever read Srila Prabhupadas Direction of Management from 1970 which is the cornerstone of what is basically ISKCONs constitution you would know that the GBC that has been operating since 1977 is not legitimate and therefore what they say or decide is meaningless. That would mean that since 1977 ISKCON is operating without a head - or worse -- it was hijacked and is no longer the organization that Srila Prabhupada established. Its gone, my friends. I hate to be the one to break this news to you but its gone. Due to the inconceivable potency of Srila Prabhupada and his books somehow or other people who are desiring and deserving continue to come into contact with him through his vani presence; i.e. his books, tapes, teachings .... and this is the amazing arrangement of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. I have hopes that someday ISKCON will get back on track but I dont think it will happen in my lifetime and I have at best another ten or fifteen years more to go. The whole arrangement thats going on is unauthorized -- such as the electing of gurus (the irony is that the DOM states that every three years the temple presidents vote in entirely new GBC members -- not that permanent GBC members vote in initiating spiritual masters). My godbrothers who are running the show have run amok and thsoe of you who have joined the organization post 1977 -- I apologize on their behalf and for myself as well for allowing it to happen. Oh, I protested and tried to stop it back in 78 but the power base was already consolidated. The zonal guru insanity had already become institutionalized and anybody who spoke out against it was forced out. Tamal, Ramesvara, Bhavananda, Bhagavan, Hrdayananda, Jayatirtha -- these were all my good friends and godbrothers. I am senior to most of them. I watched as they became swept up in the madness. It was surreal. It was a horrifying nightmare. My beloved ISKCON was gone. Gone!!!! Thats why within five years -- by the early 80s practically all of us left the society in the hands of our criminal Godbrothers. Those of us who didnt leave were forced to go if we didnt go along with their lies. Do you think Ravindra Swarup single-handedly made it all better with his papers and all their meetings in Mayapur? They made it worse. They had gone thousands of miles off the track but instead of honestly going back to the beginning, admitting to their godbrothers and sisters what they had done and apologized for it all -- especially at the lotus feet of Srila Prabhupada -- instead of doing the right thing they concocted this and that detour and created a new batch of lies to feed the troops and bedazzle onlookers. They were putting bandaids on a body that was bleeding to death.

You poor misled folks who are talking ISKCON this and ISKCON that and who is a member and who isnt -- its pitiful. Oh .. and that guy who keeps screaming about how he is a Sankirtana ISKCON devotee so he is hot stuff and knows how to diagnose problems and rip and tear and blah blah blah. I have never heard such bluster in my life coming from an ignorant neophyte. Hes dispensing all sorts of advice here on this website and presenting himself as some authority and yet his head is empty but his ego is filled to the brim and overflowing. Im talking about you sri govinda das. Im again asking you to refrain from speaking and writing for at least a year. Id really like to make it five or ten but I doubt you can keep quiet for even one day.

Such a sad state of affairs. All I can say is educate yourselves and stop throwing the aparadhi weapon all over the place. Its childish. The only reason I started participating on this website is while surfing I saw the topic about Sampradaya Sun "traficking in aparadha" and then I come here and see more insulting and offensive things being written about Srila Prabhupada than I have ever come actross in a website that claims it is Vaisnava in nature.

>Srila Prabhupadas Direction of Management from 197x

Is there at all a mention there on what means to be a member of ISKCON? Say would you qualify to be a member at present?

DIRECTION OF MANAGEMENT
I, the undersigned, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, disciple of Sri Srimad Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Maharaj Prabhupada, came in the United States in 1965 on September 18th for the purpose of starting Krishna Consciousness Movement. For one year I had no shelter. I was travelling in many parts of this country. Then in 1966, July, I incorporated the Society under the name and style the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, briefly ISKCON. The lawyer was Mr. J. Goldsmith. Gradually the Society increased, and one after another branches were opened. Now we have got thirty-four (34) branches enlisted herewith: '97

(list omitted - lack of space)

As we have increased our volume of activities, now I think a Governing Body Commission (hereinafter referred to as the GBC) should be established. I am getting old, 75 years old, therefore at any time I may be out of the scene, therefore I think it is necessary to give instruction to my disciples how they shall manage the whole institution. They are already managing individual centers represented by one president, one secretary and one treasurer, and in my opinion they are doing nice. But we want still more improvement in the standard of Temple management, propaganda for Krishna Consciousness, distribution of books and literatures, opening of new centers and educating devotees to the right standard. Therefore, I have decided to adopt the following principles and I hope my beloved disciples will kindly accept them. There was a meeting in S.F. , and many presidents of the centers were present. In that meeting it was resolved that an ad hoc committee be set up to form the constitution which is taken into consideration. My duty was to first appoint twelve (12) persons to my free choice amongst my disciples and I do it now and their names are as follows: '97

(names omitted - lack of space)

These personalities are now considered as my direct representatives. While I am living they will act as my zonal secretaries and after my demise they will be known as Executors.

I have already awarded Sannyas or the renounced order of life to some of my students and they have also got very important duties to perform in this connection. The Sannyasis will travel to our different centers for preaching purpose as well as enlightening the members of the center for spiritual advancement. The Sannyasis will suggest for opening new centers in suitable places and the GBC will take action on it.

As was stipulated by the ad hoc committee, the function of the GBC will be as follows with particulars: '97

PARTICULARS OF THE GBC
"The purpose of the Governing Body Commission is to act as the instrument for the execution of the Will of His Divine Grace. And further,

1. The GBC oversees all operations and management of ISKCON, as it receives direction from Srila Prabhupada, and His Divine Grace has the final approval in all matters.
2. His Divine Grace will select the initial 12 members of the GBC. In the succeeding years the GBC will be elected by a vote of all Temple presidents, who will vote for 8 from a ballot of all Temple presidents, which may also include any secretary who is in charge of a Temple. Those 8 with the greatest number of votes will be members for the next term of GBC. Srila Prabhupada will choose to retain four commissioners. In the event of Srila Prabhupadas absence, the retiring members will decide which four will remain.
3. The commissioners will serve for a period of 3 years, and they may be re-elected at the end of this period.
4. The chairman is elected by the GBC for each meeting. He has no veto power, but in even of a vote tie, his vote will decide. The same will apply for votes cast by mail between regular meetings.
5. Throughout the year, each of the commissioners will stay with His Divine Grace for one month at a time and keep the other commissioners informed of His Divine Graces instructions.
6. The primary objective of the GBC is to organize the opening of new Temples and to maintain the established Temples.
7. Advice will be given by the GBC in cases of real property purchases, which will be in the name of ISKCON, INC. (Trucks or other vehicles will be purchased in the name of the local president).
8. Removal of a Temple president by the GBC requires support by the local Temple members.
9. The GBC has no jurisdiction in the publication of manuscripts, which will be handled by a separate committee; profits to be returned to Srila Prabhupada."

So far my books are concerned, I am setting up a different body of management known as the BHAKTIVEDANTA BOOK TRUST. The trustees of this body are also members of the GBC, but their function is not dependent on the GBC. ISKCON Press was created for the exclusive publication of my books and literatures and should be continued in that way.

During my absence no one shall live in my apartment.

Date July 28th, 1970
Los Angeles, California 90034

This is from the Hare Krishna handbook that we printed and published in 1970. The contents were fully authorized by His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada. It will give you more understanding of the meaning of being an ISKCON member (or minister):

No eating of meat, fish, or eggs
The only food which may be eaten by students or ministers is food prepared under strict dietary regulations and offered by prescribed ceremony to Krishna. When traveling or under unusual circumstances, students or ministers may eat foods such as fruit or milk which can be easily offered and which do not necessarily require preparation. Under no circumstances may unoffered food be eaten. In Krishna consciousness, eating is an act of worship and must be conducted accordingly.
No illicit sex
Sexual relations are permitted only between individuals married by an ordained minister in Krishna consciousness. There is no dating or courtship. Marriage is an arrangement for two devotees of Krishna to serve and worship in this way. Marriage is primarily for the purpose of raising children in Krishna consciousness
No intoxicants
This includes all narcotics, alcoholic beverages, tobacco, coffee and tea. The Societys efficiency in automatically getting the youth to abandon the use of marijuana, LSD and other narcotics has drawn commendations from the mayors of New York City and San Francisco. Medicines may be taken when absolutely necessary, but whenever possible medicines containing narcotic substances should be avoided. An occasional drink for "medicinal" purposes is not permitted.
No gambling
This also excludes frivolous sports and games. In addition, students are advised not to engage in any conversation that is not connected with the teachings of Krishna consciousness or with the execution of duties.
C. Activities of ministers of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness.
Ministers of the Society have duties to perform which are related to the congregation, to divinity students and to the Society itself. In addition, of course, they are required to pursue two activities for their own education and welfare.
Ministers must conduct services both for regular members of the congregation and for the general public. At these services the ministers lead the congregation in prayer and meditation including congregational chanting of the holy names of Krishna. In addition to the prayer and meditation, the minister preaches the principles of Krishna consciousness. In this manner he attempts to lead the members of his congregation into a better understanding of the role of the individual in society as well as the role of the individual as a servant of Krishna. The public is invited and encouraged to attend these services.
Ministers perform the traditional duties of faculty members of seminaries. The students are given formal instruction, are led on missionary field trips, and are given guidance in their personal lives.
Each minister is required to participate in the administration of this organization. The Society assumes total responsibility for each of its students and ministers and therefore frequently encounters serious and complex problems in securing and distributing the materials necessary to sustain these people. The growth of the Society is thought to be of great importance and therefore much time and energy is expended upon the distribution of literature and promotion of missionary activities. Finally, the Society requires its ministers to assist in the large volume of administrative work one would expect to find in an organization with 31 locations.

My dear portoy Prabhu,having read you last several articles ....i am sadly at a loss when i have to deal with this offensive and rather inept attacks on your own junior godbrothers.Please tell me such nonsense will come an end ,when all of you just pass on to the heavenly planets.Iskcon is actually far,far, bigger than even when his divine grace Srila AC Bhaktivedanta swami Prabhupada was here.
There is 260 to 280 temples.....plus many restaurants and preaching centres.We are the authorised vehicle .....We are now passing from your generation ,to mine and soon my own legacy will produce its own gurus.We are infact in the year 2009...not 1980,1990s,1970s.....Iskcon is empowered by Sri Chaitanya mahaprabhu and Sri nityananda ram.
We are the society prabhu who has forfilled the prophesies of Srila Bhaktivinoda takura .....that Western devotees ....Russian british and american devotees would flood the holy dharma.
Sorry since i fail to have remembered your name as an intimate direct servant of Srila Prabhupada....like his grace Tamala krishna goswami or satsvarupa swami.....Maybe that will be in your own lilamrita......your own...Thousands of disciples.Please contact us so we can perform your Guru puja......Sorry but what was your name again?

International Society for Krishna Consciousness=Consciousness of Sri Guru Srila Prabhupada and Sri Krishna

If you are very greedy, very eager to have sadhu-sanga, sat-sanga, the association of grantha-bhagavata and bhakta-bhagavata, first of all you have to give up duhsanga or asat-sanga. What is association? One may say that to come in close proximity to a person is association. But that is not the fact. Association takes place in the mind, in the heart. As long as there are desires for material enjoyment, desires for liberation, desires for mystic perfections, and other desires in your heart, then you are doing asat-sanga. Even though you may come and sit here, and even though you may be staying in the temple, if all these thoughts and desires are in your mind, you are doing asat-sanga, duhsanga. You are not doing real sadhu-sanga.
If your heart is not crying how to have the real association of grantha-bhagavata and bhakta-bhagavata, then you cannot get their association. Even if you dont go anywhere, if you just sit in one place, still you will have duhsanga. The example is Saubhari Muni. He entered into the water of the Yamuna and stayed there for thousands of years, but still he had duhsanga. In our minds there are hundreds and thousands of desires giving duhsanga to us. Is your stupid mind thinking about Krishna? Is your stupid mind thinking about the instructions of sadhu-guru-vaisnava? Is your stupid mind thinking about the instructions of Mahaprabhu and His dear devotees? If the stupid mind is not thinking these things, then you are doing duhsanga, asat-sanga. You are not doing sadhu-sanga at all. Externally or apparently you are staying in the temple but you are really doing asat-sanga.

We should think about it: Are these thoughts pleasing to Krishna? Are these thoughts pleasing to guru and Gauranga? Krishna gave His most confidential instruction, man-mana bhava - "Only think of Me" [Bg. 18.65]. Sriman Mahaprabhu gave the same instruction:

ki sayane ki bhojane, kiba jagarane aharnisa cinta krsna, balaha vadane

Whether asleep, awake, or eating your meals, think only of Lord Krishna day and night. With your mouths speak only of Him. [Cb. madhya 28.28]

Day and night, twenty-four hours, cinta-krsna, balaha vadane - think of Krishna and utter His name - in all conditions, whether sleeping, waking, or even when taking food. This is Mahaprabhus instruction. So we should analyze what we are thinking about. Srila Kaviraj Goswami describes what is duhsanga:

duhsanga kahiye--kaitava, atma-vancana krsna, krsna-bhakti vinu anya kamana

Cheating oneself and cheating others is called kaitava. Associating with those who cheat in this way is called duhsanga, bad association. Those who desire things other than Krishnas service are also called duhsanga, bad association. [Cc. madhya 24.99]

Duhsanga means desiring things other than Krishna and krsna-bhakti. That is atma-vancana, cheating yourself, not cheating anyone else. If we dont think of the happiness and pleasure of Krishna, if we dont think of krsna-bhakti, if we think of something else and try to fulfill that desire, then even though we may be staying in the temple it is duhsanga. With this frame of mind or heart one cannot have the association of bhakta-bhagavata or grantha-bhagavata and one cannot render service unto guru, bhakta-bhagavata, or grantha-bhagavata.

Guru-pada-padma is very heavy, not light. Guru means heavy. He is gambhira-vastu - very grave. We cannot approach him. We cannot go to him. If we are fortunate and we can go, then it is to be understood that there will be no more material attachment, no more material world. Thereby we will enter into Vaikuntha. There will be no more dense darkness in our hearts, no more of these other thoughts in our minds, no more contamination. There will be no more duplicity, crookedness, and desire for name, fame, and prestige.

We should think deeply about it. We should make a self-inquiry: "Have we reached guru-pada-padma? Have we entered into his heart? Is he really merciful towards us? Is he really giving his darsana to us?" If he gives his darsana then there will be no more duhsanga! We are only pretending that we have done atma-nivedana, that we have surrendered. But we have not really surrendered. We have only been pretending, pretending, pretending for so many years, and also for so many years to come in the future. As long as we continue to act artificially we cannot approach guru, sadhu or vaisnava. We cannot get their mercy at all and therefore we cannot see their real form.

We will be cheated. We will get all external things.
A lecture given in Bhubaneswar, India on September 28, 1995.

Recent webcast discussion on ISKCON membership - Aniruddha dasa, temple president of Melbourne is talking initially....Sitapati dasa and Bhakta Dave discuss the subject in between calls http://www.atmayogi.com/files/podcast/ISKCON_membership_podcast_Dec_5_B.mp3

Is there any indication of feedback submitted to GBC?

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]Is there any indication of feedback submitted to GBC?[/quote]

Would like to see that published ;-)

[quote][cite] rasa108:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]Is there any indication of feedback submitted to GBC?[/quote]

Would like to see that published ;-)[/quote] I think the feedback can be generated here in a form of a list: you can start with a point in a formal English and I will add a point or two, maybe Veda can add a point or two and we can then just forward it to GBC sub committee. Just start with what you think -- what is your first bullet item?

[quote]I think the feedback can be generated here in a form of a list: you can start with a point in a formal English and I will add a point or two, maybe Veda can add a point or two and we can then just forward it to GBC sub committee. Just start with what you think -- what is your first bullet item?[/quote]
[br]
Not a bad idea...not sure what my first bullet would be - possibly to define the requirements for a "member" of ISKCON - and suggest that there should be a tier system to outline different levels of membership.

That is where it all started. And where the mistakes got in.

Dictionary:
'93A community of people living in a particular country or region and having shared customs, laws and organizations.'94 (Oxford)

(Actually this is only one definition. The more apt definition of society in the context of the International Society for Krsna Conciousness is "An organization or club formed for a particular purpose or activity." ISKCON is NOT a society in the sense given by Sivaram Swami above. It is not a community of people living in a particular country or region although its members do share customs, but not all laws which differ from country to country and as for organizations ISKCON itself is an religious organization or church.) Based on this definition let'92s define ISKCON:
A global community of people having shared customs, laws and organizations that are based upon the principles of KCness.
Here the key word is: '93shared'94 which means '93common'94

(Again ISKCON is more accurately NOT a global community. It is a global or international religious organization or church.)

A society is comprised of people who have '93shared'94 or '93common'94 values. (It is as I defined above "an organization formed for a particular purpose or activity." Naturally the members have shared or common goals and values.)

And the mistaken definition just flows from it.

Take the country of France as an example of a society with members. (A better example than France is the Catholic Church. ISKCON is not like a country like France but it is like a Church like the Catholic church.)
What do French people have in common?
constitution
(ISKCON as yet has no constitution.)

Laws
(ISKCON does have some of its own laws but also has to follow any host countrys laws in each place where its centers and devotees are situated.)
Language (ISKCON has no common language.)

Education
(Naturally a Church engages in spiritual education. As for other education that varies according to the country where centers and devotees live.)

Taxation (Since ISKCON is a Church and a voluntary organization there is no forced taxation. Donations are welcomed but not forced. So there is no taxation in the general sense of the word in everyday use.)

I(n)O(ther)W(ords): French people have in common: primary rights and obligations.

(Actually members of a church organization which is a better description of ISKCON than a country also have some rights and obligations.) What do French people have that is not common to all, but is individual? Faith (Surely devotees of ISKCON have the same faith, they do not have individual faiths. All are Vaisnavas.)

Ethnicity (ISKCON devotees have many ethnicities.)

SR Swami is on fire. http://www.sivaramaswami.com/2010/02/13/what-is-iskcon-and-who-is-a-member/

>borokrsnadasa: SR Swami is on fire. http://www.sivaramaswami.com/2010/02/13/what-is-iskcon-and-who-is-a-member/

The Maharaja obviously has some specific and strong views about who is an ISKCON member and who is part of the "The Hare Krsna Movement '96 believers"...if these prerequisites for membership are used by the GBC, will they remove those "members" who dont follow all the rules?

For example, a devotee (who will remain unamed) is currently occupying a top level managerial position in one of our most important centres in ISKCON and is doing very valuable work on an important project. He recently fell down with someone elses wife (this devotee is already married with children)...will the GBC remove this devotee and condemn him as a non-member? That would surprise me...that is a gross and obvious example. The question for me is....who is going to police these standards to make sure every member is following them? The membership police? I think this will be unworkable as presented by SRS.
Maybe SOME of his ideas can be used to form a definition, certainly not all of them and certainly not in a way that makes others feel inferior by being relegated to the tag "The Hare Krsna Movement '96 believers."

I think what would be helpful is to define a tier system of membership (as they do for Life Membership) rather than a black and white approach - e.g., lives outside, follows the regs and chants 16 rounds, is totally loyal to Srila Prabhupada and contributes service to recognised ISKCON projects....this could be defined maybe as Level 2 membership.

Here is SRSs proposed guidelines for membership (taken directly from his powerpoint presentation from the above link):

* GBC is their ultimate managerial and spiritual authority
* They must be connected to ISKCON'92s line of authority
* They accept initiation only from member of ISKCON (Chant 16 rds and follow 4 regs)
* They do not divorce
* They give 10% of income to the Society
* Subject to the disciplinary and judicial system of ISKCON

Summary: The laws and bylaws of ISKCON determine devotees'92 values and conduct in all aspects of their lives: work (var'eba), social status ('e4'e7rama), spiritual practice and spiritual aspiration.

Here are the ISKCON members rights:

* Officially accepted as connected to Srila Prabhup'e4da, in the par'e4mpar'e4 and Gaudiya Samprad'e4ya.
* Reside, serve or be employed in temples, farms etc and also engage in leadership positions from Nama-hatta leader to GBC secretary.
* Can perform ceremonies and worship for members and in temples (give class, worship deities, become diska/siksa guru, do samsk'e4ras etc)
* Enjoy samsk'e4ras offered by Society (birth, marriage, initiation, sanny'e4sa etc)
* Be part of ISKCON initiatives eg: Chamber of commerce, M'e4y'e4pura residence, gurukula/education, co-operatives etc.

Summary: Members enjoy benefits of membership only on the basis of having accepted the obligations that comes along it, membership.

Im joining this discussion quite late on, but have a view on this, firstly id like to quote Srila Prabhupada, when he was asked about the question of fall down eg what should one do if they fall Prabhupada replied "get up again" and if they fall down again? "get up again" etc etc etc. So on one hand I fully agree that there must be a critea for membership in ISKCON but if after some years one falls and after time wants to reinstate themselves again, although perhaps divorced are they eternally excluded from ISKCONs mercy, service and direct involvement in ISKCON programmes and preaching etc. Or should they actually be welcomed with open arms and forgiven, not just merely offered a sort of guest like status?

It is an honor being an Iskcon devotee, but at the same time, it should remain an open system, just the way Prabhupada created it. Who thinks that he is more intelligent than Prabhupada? If there is someone, let them raise hands.

Realistically some devotees have an immense service ability who are not able to follow regulative principlesmany times.While others are brahmacari their whole lives and practically acheive nothing.Ambarisa ford prabhu is an expert individual,who obviously has incredible faith in bhavannada das.Whose particular expertise is management.So ambarish has created his team with the sanction of the iskcon GBC to build the Vedic Planetarium.This will be the biggest sankirtan service within our lifetimes!

An iskcon or gaudiya inspired preacher are united in the same spirit ....is simply a committed woman or man who starts off full of beans and enthusiasm.He carries the rasa of a forgiving loving spirit to those who are not interested,by his courageous listening spirit he tolerates while personally praying for their spiritual benefit....he eventually becomes absorbed in forfilling the order of his spiritual master that they take krishna....in prasadam ,a book,a happy smile from a good devotee wife or child,or even the taste of alcohol to a drunkard! He is very very merciful even though attacked.....though sometimes he should attack back sometimes!

I was hoping this debate would not fade away as it is critical that the GBC get this right...in the name of spreading Krsna consciousness via the Daiva Varnasrama system, means you cannot have a black and white system of membership where either you are a member or you are not. There needs to be a tier system for it to fit the model of Varnasrama, otherwise for example - those who follow the regulations of spiritual life, are totally loyal to Srila Prabhupada, chant 16 rounds daily, offer service to ISKCON in some form - may feel very offended.

Again the question arises.....who can police these membership requirements amongst its ISKCON members? In this regard, it appears SRSs proposal is unworkable.

Lets be honest, is true isnt it, that it is not about who is 100% member, who is 75% member and who is 50% member. We have no problem with those.

The reason some authorities in ISKCON are trying to change the system established by Prabhupada (initiated members, aspiring bhaktas and life-members) is because of splinter groups, because they can not lead and because Prabhupadas system does not pay the salaries of temple presidents and GBCs. However according to academics who study our membership it is conclusive, "When people defect from religious or secular movement-organisations for political rather than ideological reasons, they remain members of the movement." Rochford, 1989, p. 175. What actually happens is that joining this Prabhupadas movement was made as easy as possible by Prabhupada (while the standard was very high). The standard of surrender was lowered after his departure, system of the levels initiatedmember-bhakta-lifemember was destroyed in many places by placing all the married man into a congregational category. If you ask me it is a different movement now, it is congregational movement now, but it used to be temple-life movement for everyone, who became an initiated-member. Prabhupada would even let his married sannyasis to live in the temple. To be honest they should just continue the life-membership program that Prabhupada started, recognize that the member of ISKCON is truly an "initiated member" that Prabhupada had defined and instead of inventing their own systems, just reintroduce what he has done, be humble.

I do not feel very comfortable with the change proposed by Shivarama Swami. Most devotees are not too. If you study what is actually happening in Hungary where he did it already, you will know. Prabhupada disciples are marginalized there, they are outside devotees, not to be associated with. The devotees of a different class temple devotees are usually young and puffed up, and there is a prohibition for the children who attend the gurukula to play with children of outside devotees. It is really a sad, semi-nazy oriented system that Shivarama Swami is trying to implement everywhere now. How bad should it become if we accept it? How tragic.

Instead we need to pay attention to how Prabhupada set it up, high standards, welcoming and open membership, compassion to those who could not walk the line and place for everyone on the same level with absolute respect to spiritual leadership, not membership stamps or salaries. Why is Prabhupadas model is not good for you (of for them)? Why invent new things? Who is your guru Prabhupada or someone else?

The reality is of course that managerial control over the membership is gradually replacing initial spiritual control and zeal, that wes set by personal high example. One model is based a border that one needs to cross (rigid borders model) to get a membership ticket and another is an open membership that can be illustrated as a magnetic field, magnets field will attract others that surround it, and there are not rigid borders to that field, but aspiration for initiation, second initiation, service etc. But the standard needs to be set by a personal example of following, not by an external criteria.

Thanks for your comments borok....it seems that the system in Hungary isnt working and creates an elitist type of attitude....it takes us back to the old days of temple devotees and outside devotees who are considered to be in Maya - I dont think this proposal will get very far but certainly a tier of membership could be workable.

And how the tier" system will eliminate the elitist attitude? Why cant the initiated-member model work for those who live outside of the temple?

Here is the simple practical definition of how initiated-member system works for anyone (very late conversation in 1976 -- the system was well established 76):

Mah'e4'e0'e7a: Theres only five first initiations. Those ladies, I told them to wait some more time. Those ladies, I told them to wait for some more time because they were still drinking tea and coffee until yesterday.

Prabhup'e4da: No, if they promise they will give up, then we can give.

Mah'e4'e0'e7a: I already told them, "You please..." They said they will give up but I said that you...

Prabhup'e4da: No, if they promise you can give.

Mah'e4'e0'e7a: But, they are waiting, what shall I tell them now? I just now told them...

Prabhup'e4da: No, tell them that, "If you promise from today you will give up..."

Mah'e4'e0'e7a: They promised.

Prabhup'e4da: Then we shall give it.

Mah'e4'e0'e7a: All five of them?

Prabhup'e4da: Oh, yes. If they have promised, we shall give. Simply you dont break promise. You have promised'97do it. Thats all.

Mah'e4'e0'e7a: Ill tell them. Another thing was those, what is, I dont know what is the position of ladies being initiated. They are young girls. They may get married. They may get married to someone outside the society.

Prabhup'e4da: But she can chant and observe the rules and regulations'97what is that.

Mah'e4'e0'e7a: Even if her husband does not follow?

Prabhup'e4da: That does not matter. It is individual.

A tier system based on Gita 7.16 would be a good start.

Ha ha. (just for the fun of it) How would your distinguish the inquisitive and a lady who is searching for knowledge of the Absolute? I guess a color of sari?

Here is Srila Prabhupadas definitions of being a member of ISKCON. Why should we accept definitions of people who have imperfect senses or a tendency to commit mistakes (and worse). We should accept definitions of Srila Prabhupada and put it in practice:

"The Krsna consciousness movement is especially meant for creating an atmosphere in which people can take to the chanting of the Hare Krsna mantra. One must begin with faith, and when this faith is increased by chanting, a person can become a member of the Society."

" If one wants to become an initiated member of our Krsna consciousness society, we first of all ask him to undergo tapasya. In the Western countries especially it is a great tapasya to give up illicit sex life, intoxication, meat-eating and gambling."

"When we accept somebody in our society as initiated member we put forward this obligation, restriction, that "No more illicit sex life, no more gambling, no more intoxication and no more animal food." "

Kaunteyas presentation is sensible. http://kaunteyadas.posterous.com/iskcon-membership-what-i-wrote-to-gbc-discuss

Sitapati (as usual I may add) is confused a bit. http://www.atmayogi.com/node/3640 while he asked the right question at first.

Probably the best questions asked are here http://nytsanga.blogspot.com/2010/03/membership.html Why artificially accentuate this distinction with member and non member status? Will we end up like to Mormons where only members in good standing can enter the Church?

Of course for some reason they all forget that Prabhupada already defined the membership in such a way as to avoid many problems and to ensure all vaisnava groups stay together.

Even though French criminal doesnt lose French citizenship, hes subjected to French laws and punishable by them.
Every group with membership has some punitive measures like suspension, etc. for those who broke its rules.

Srila Prabhupada excommunicated some devotees (Nitai das comes to my mind).
Viracandra Gosvami excommunicated guru aparadhi Jayagopala das (Bhaktiratnakara ref. found in my elaboration).

Interesting as a matter of purification and punishment Prabhupada gave sannyasa to some disciples and sent them out to preach. Another method of punishment for a sannyasi was to sent them to China for example. Out of four disciples that underwent expulsion from ISKCON some were given bhiksa initiation (after expulsion) and were told not to preach in ISKCON. I guess Prabhupada was very powerful and I really think we should learn from him. Nitai joined Radha-kunda babajis (following Jagannatha das) Nitai das was active in 1976. Interesting that Prabhupada would only expel people for serious deviation, and then use them anyway in the service and keeping them engaged, in a way they remained members but not in direct association with others. Yes you can give example of expulsion of Jiva Goswami from Vrindavana too.

What I refer is that the four sannyasis in 1970 were already initiated members of ISKCON and because they were spreading a very dangerous philosophy Prabhupada was happy to give them sannyasa to as he said "get them purified". I would not imagine he would do the same for someone who was not an initiated member of ISKCON. He would also accept as initiated member in ISKCON and his disciple Maha Visnu Goswami, who was already initiated by a Vaisnava guru.

On the other hand, he would never ever consider un-initiated members really members.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]Why artificially accentuate this distinction with member and non member status?[/quote]

I dont think it is artificial. From my own experience, clarity about membership status would be useful, a practical guideline for people to have a better idea as to how to behave toward eachother, especially for the newcomers.[br]

[br]I would like to know my place.[br]

[br]Instead, I am all too often met with expectations and assumptions, from devotees considering me a meat-eater to considering me exclusively devoted to this path. And clarifying those expectations and assumptions - and I have to clarify them, if I dont wish to end up in messy relationships - is a real drudgery, which usually leads to just more trouble.[br]

[br][quote]Will we end up like to Mormons where only members in good standing can enter the Church?[/quote][br]

I really think ISKCON should be more openly elitist. (Of course, as they say, "If you wish to act like a star, you better give a star effort".) [br]
Without such a sense of elitism, people become too comfortable, take things too easily, take so much for granted, assume too much familiarity too soon.[br]

[br]Harvard students may seem stuck-up - but they are not lazy. Any institution or organization - from universities to the army - has to maintain a sense of elitism, and openly at that, if it wishes to maintain a level of quality and relevance. A hippies spirit has no place here.[br]

[br](And I apologize, I didnt mean to thank you for that particular post, but my finger somehow clicked too much to the left. Must be subconscious. :) [br]

Baker: Can you please explain what " a real drudgery, which usually leads to just more trouble" has to do with it. I understood your concerns and desire for open elitism, but isnt your motivation is exact reason to keep it an open and fuzzy edged membership, so that even if non-willing people to be engaged in devotional acts that may be (we know) way above their heads, but they will save them at the time of death? If you knew that you are an intermediate member, and you had it in your dress code and the color of your bead-bag, will it make you more enthusiastic?

Thanks for the thanks anyway. (Should I do the same on your post?)

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]Baker: Can you please explain what " a real drudgery, which usually leads to just more trouble" has to do with it.[/quote]

How does one explain to someone that one is not as good as the other person thinks one is, without endangering ones reputation?[br]
Many people have very idealistic images of others, unrealistic expectations. When a person fails (and it is to some extent inevitable that one will fail), that fall is taken to be much worse when those expectations are idealistically high, than if they are more in line with the persons actual abilities. And its the one who fails that has to bear the consequences of others idealistic expectations (severe judgment, rejection).[br]
If one is a lowly person and is perceived as a lowly person, this actually brings them a better reputation than if one is a lowly person but is perceived as a good person.[br]

[br][quote] I understood your concerns and desire for open elitism, but isnt your motivation is exact reason to keep it an open and fuzzy edged membership, so that even if non-willing people to be engaged in devotional acts that may be (we know) way above their heads, but they will save them at the time of death?[/quote]

I dont understand this sentence.[br]

[br]
[quote]If you knew that you are an intermediate member, and you had it in your dress code and the color of your bead-bag, will it make you more enthusiastic?[/quote]

I am in favor of demistifying spiritual practice as much as possible.

Thank you for explaining what your meant by real drudgery and more trouble.

It is interesting to see an objective summary of so many troubles that elitist paradigm brings (by person who is propounding it:) So you are saying that we should have an openly elitist approach for membership where the selected few have to really perform (pretend?) and set the high example and be "perceived as a good person", while for yourself you prefer not to be in such a situation (let others suffer from your idealistic expectations)?

The fact of the matter is that we have already created a elitist structure with initiating gurus of ISKCON. those are certainly have to suffer from it. I knew one who for years was saying he was not a pure devotee and was openly discussing his anarthas, but hey that did not stop a severe judgment or rejection by those who praise honesty and those who admired him for openly confirming that he is a lowly person. I guess it is a hope that we project on the elite. And now that we in our overwhelming majority gave up on this hope a membership is proposed that does not correspond to what Srila Prabhupada wanted. Are you rejecting a service opportunity? ;-)

So the question for you -- you do not want to be in the elite and consider it to be unhealthy to pretend, yet you support creation of such an elite despite obvious lessons from history with severe judgment, rejection etc that followed towards otherwise still aspiring devotees?

I presume that such an elite doesnt need to be created, but that it already exists; and that if I dont appreciate this elite, this is my failing, not the elites.

I really do not think anyone suffers from my idealistic expectations. I am in no position of power or influence whatsoever.

Bottomline, it seems to me that there is a real need to bring in more respect, more appreciation for ISKCON, and different people address this need differently.

Well exactly. Except that you should show respect to all devotees, not just for the elite. Formal membership helps just with the opposite if you project every single devotees future knowing the tendency, in 20 years time how many of todays full time members will retain the elite status?

I think the varnashrama system deals with that problem.
But without such a system in place for the whole country (or even world), there are always going to be problems, I suppose.

Establishing the varnashrama system only within a small community of devotees, while this community is geographically and economically embedded within the larger community that is not organised by the varnashrama system, but from which aspirants come to approach the devotee community - this is a troubling situation from the onset.

Maybe we refer to different SRS models.

monk, church personnel, volunteer, supporter, helper, sympathizer:
http://www.eurogbc.com/elm2007presentations/Manorama%20dasa%20-%20ELM_membership_Hungary.jpg
http://www.sivaramaswami.com/2007/01/02/talk-on-iskcon-membership/

It seems an "everyone can come" policy has always been in place but then certain activities within ISKCON such as Deity worship, giving class etc. requires a level of membership to maintain standards as per Srila Prabhupadas instructions. The question is do we require a structure (of membership definition) or not....certainly SRSs presentation will cause friction and even MORE elitism that already exists. Standards can be maintained in temples without such a membership system so is there a need for such a system? If so, then certainly a tier system is desirable (that would fit the Varnasrama model more accurately) otherwise a black and white approach is going to alienate devotees who would otherwise be included to some level in the ISKCON institution.

Interesting article in the ISKCON Communications Journal "Fundamental Human Rights in ISKCON " by Radha devi dasi published in 1998:

DECLARATION OF MEMBERS RIGHTS FOR THE INTERNATIONAL SOCIETY FOR KRISHNA CONSCIOUSNESS

Whereas, recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all living beings is a fundamental tenet of Vaisnava philosophy;
Whereas, compassion and mercy are essential qualities of Vaisnavas;
Whereas disregard and contempt for the rights of living beings have resulted in injurious acts (both inside and outside the Hare Krishna Movement) which outrage the conscience of all compassionate beings; and
Whereas it is essential to the continued existence of ISKCON that we promote loving relations between all Vaisnavas and Vaisnavis;
Now therefore, we adopt the following Bill of Rights for all of the members of ISKCON:

Article 1
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are all members of Krishnas family endowed with reason and conscience and should act toward one another in a spirit of love and compassion.

Article 2
Membership in ISKCON is available to all people who desire such membership and who agree to the conditions of such membership. No one shall be denied membership in ISKCON on the basis of race, national or social origin, language, birth status or gender.

Article 3
Every member of ISKCON is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction on the basis of race, national or social origin, language, birth status, age, gender, or identity of the members initiating guru as long as that guru is authorised by ISKCON to give initiation.

Article 4
Every member of ISKCON has the right to freedom from violence, torture, cruel or degrading treatment and abuse. It is the duty of ISKCON leaders to provide environments that are free from violence, torture, cruel or degrading treatment and abuse.

Article 5
ISKCON is a voluntary society and no member of ISKCON shall be held in a condition of involuntary service.

Article 6
All members of ISKCON are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the laws which govern our society.

Article 7
Every member of ISKCON has the right to an effective remedy by ISKCONs Governing Body Commission (GBC) for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him or her under this Declaration.

Article 8
No member of ISKCON shall be subjected to any arbitrary sanction or punishment by any ISKCON authority.

Article 9
Every member of ISKCON is entitled in full equality to a fair hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal in the determination of his or her rights and obligations in relationship to ISKCON.

Article 10
No member of ISKCON shall have his or her membership rights in ISKCON limited or terminated without a full and fair hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal. It is essential to such a full and fair hearing that the accused ISKCON member be given (a) reasonable notice of the hearing, (b) the opportunity to present witnesses and evidence on his or her own behalf, and (c) the opportunity to confront the witnesses and evidence against him or her.

PART 2:

Article 11
Every member of ISKCON shall have the right to freedom of movement and residence. Every temple dependent resident member shall have the right to leave his or her temple ashrama for the purpose of establishing his own separate residence at any time. However, any ISKCON member who seeks residence in a temple ashrama must abide by the rules of that ashram, including the rules of admission to that ashram.

Article 12
Every member of ISKCON who is of full legal age, without any limitation due to race, national or social origin, language, birth status, gender or religion, shall have the right to marry and to found a family.
1) Both male and female members of ISKCON are entitled to equal rights under ISKCON and secular law as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution. However, this article does not itself create any right to dissolve a marriage.
2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by ISKCON.

Article 13
Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. It is the duty of ISKCON leaders to provide protection to the women and children in their area. It is also the duty of ISKCON leaders to provide resources and programmes for the development and enrichment of the children in ISKCON.

Article 14
Every member of ISKCON shall have the right to freedom of thought and conscience. While ISKCON leaders may place reasonable restrictions on a members public expression of ideas which conflict with ISKCONs position, no member of ISKCON shall be sanctioned for ideas or beliefs which differ from official ISKCON positions or for ideas or beliefs which contradict those of ISKCON leaders. However, this provision shall not prevent ISKCON from requiring that its members ascribe to ISKCONs official positions in order to hold leadership positions.

Article 15
Every member of ISKCON shall be entitled to such education and service opportunities as will assist his or her full development in Krsna consciousness without discrimination on the basis of race, national or social origin, language, birth status, gender, or identity of the members initiating guru as long as that guru is authorised by ISKCON to give initiation.

Article 16
Every temple dependent resident member of ISKCON shall be entitled to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself or herself and his or her family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care, rest, and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
While ISKCON leaders are not responsible for the standard of living of non-temple dependent members of ISKCON, they have a duty to foster the development of necessary economic support skills among the members in their care and to avoid setting policies which would interfere with the ability of non-temple dependent members to provide an adequate standard of living for themselves and their families.

Article 17
Each member of ISKCON shall have the right to information about the process by which ISKCON is governed and, in particular, shall be entitled to information about:
a) the nature and content of proposals made at each annual Mayapur meeting of the GBC;
b) the identification of those proposals which are adopted at each annual Mayapur meeting of the GBC; and
c) the nature and outcome of formal disciplinary proceedings undertaken by ISKCON authorities against ISKCON leaders;

Article 18
In the exercise of his or her rights and freedoms, each member of ISKCON shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by ISKCON leaders to be essential for the purpose of securing recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare of ISKCON.

> If so, then certainly a tier system is desirable (that would fit the Varnasrama model more accurately) otherwise a black and white approach is going to alienate devotees who would otherwise be included to some level in the ISKCON institution.

SRS model has several tiers.

If leaders have all duties and members have all rights, it wont work. States have taxes, churches have tithes, etc. but ISKCON isnt a perpetuum mobile. Without any stable economic structure, its an utopia.

>SRS model has several tiers.

Several tiers? I only see two...."ISKCON member" and "The Hare Krsna Movement '96 believers".

>If leaders have all duties and members have all rights, it wont work

The proposal is not referring to "leaders", the reference is to ISKCON members. In a proper tier system, all levels would obviously not have all rights.

- if there is a better system other than SRSs proposal then let it be revealed.