Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

You have quoted that verse from Jiva Gosvami several times...

divyam jnaman verse is cited by Srila Sanatana Gosvami in Hari-bhakti-vilasa (second vilasa), and Srila Jiva Gosvami in Bhakti-sandarbha (283), and Srila Prabhupada in his purport of Caitanya-caritamrtya, as above. All three presentations of this verse are very similar.

However SAC concluded that even San'e4tana cites the two verses to highlight the importance of dIkS'e4, not to give its essential definition. And according to SAC this verse is not meant to be taken as the essential definition or literal proof of anything, even according to the strict rules of grammar.

In other words the conclusion of SAC is that "properly speaking, diksa is a specific Pancaratrika method of mantra initiation, which Srila Rupa Gosvami has stipulated as one of the required elements of vaidhi sadhana-bhakti." However it seems that Prabhup'e4da sometimes does define diksa as the transmission of transcendental knowledge based on thedibyam jnanam verse of Pancaratram, which is not actually a definition but a glorification of diksa. Thus the confusion and taking diksa out of pancaratrica context to the bhagavata context. However Prabhupada would say (in the bhagavata viddhi context) that diksa is a formality.

I find the definition will help immensely if someone can finalize it.

My understanding is that divya jnana is an internal effect of an external bhagavata or pancaratrika ritual if all participants are qualified.
In GV tradition the pancaratrika aspect was introduced by BSST. Before him diksa was of the bhagavata type (no fire yajna).

Due to the inherent nature of the conception of a childcertain impurities are imbibed in the creation process.Hence certain samskaras or consecrations are essential for progressive spiritual advancement.One of these is Diksa ...Which until the time of Srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati maharaja took two different forms.The first Siddha pranaliwas prevalent within the Caste brahman community and the hereditary descendents of vaisnava renunciates and brahmana families since the times of sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu....some 500 years ago.
This particular mode of diksa was perculiar in nature ,due to gurus revealing ones perfect original spiritual form and spiritual relationship with Rasaraja ...lord sri Krishna at the time of initiation.Such initiation requires an Uttama adhikari..or maha bhagavata Guru to be substantial and indeed genuine.The prospective follower or initiation candidate in essence needs a thorough devotional history to be eligible for this spontaneous devotional service platform .....raganuga bhakti.This unique initiation was given within the context of Chaitanya lila,so many eternal associates and pure devotees were present.Such initiation brings with it immediate experience of ones eternal personal relationship in krishna and his direct servants pastimes,when the heart is qualified and receptive.
Hence since such a process was the natural target of "imitationists or sahaja groups within the age of kali.Srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati Maharaja with-drew this process from our vision,understanding the inherent devotional risks and perversions which would naturally follow as a consequence.
Siddha pranali requires spiritual realization,it is not within the realm of the conditioned souls environment....imagined or perceived spiritual qualifications.In other words without the necessary purification and spiritual qualification....a spontaneous ,dynamic attraction for devotional service similar in nature to the eternal associates of Lord Krishna.....such a process is merely a disturbance to the devotional community.
However within the accepted bonifide iskcon sankirtan process this mood of siddha perfection is naturally manifest within the verses of Sri Sisastakam .These spiritually potent eight sublime verses will reveal the fullest expression in the heart of such sincere sankirtan devotees.Also the unique sannyasis mantras which Srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswatis takura left,such fruit were the legacy of Srila Raghunatha goswami .....were specifically meant for traveling sanyasis preachers to also deliver them to this siddha or Rasa lila perfection.
At least this is the accepted perfectional devotional understanding amongst our iskcon- gaudiya vaisnavas.
The second diksa initiation process is Harinam .Symptomised by a submission within the heart mood ,usually as a result of following certain devotional prerequisites.....4 regulated principles in the form of specific restrictions and the chanting of Hare krishna maha-mantra in a regulated fashion.
Within Iskcon there is a general acceptance of Srila Prabhupada as the Siksa guru along with personally accepting the taking shelter of a particular diksa guruwhom one has developed some faith in.Personally imbibing his unique mood and individual pionts of devotional emphasis.
Within our line this Narada Pancharatric mode of initiation provides for a certain encouragmentand defining of spiritual maturity to take place.When the seed of devotion is placed within the furtile environment of the sincere sadhakas heart.We are provided and introduced to the Bhakti-lata-bija or seed of the devotional service,the devotional creeper...which we are told grows with constant watering ......hearing and chanting about krishna,Sravanam kirtanam vishnu smaranam.........The nine processes of devotional service.
It is accepting the blessings of guru ,with the seed of bhakti,the removal of sins and engaging in devotional service sincerely which is formalised in the Diksa initiation process...increased sincerity.....
The sloka.. Bhaktisandarbha (Anuccheda 283) Jiva Gosvami has defined diksa as follows: divyam jnanam yato dadyat kuryat papasya sanksayam tasmad dikseti sa prokta desikais tattva-kovikaih -
"Learned exponents of the Absolute Truth declare that the process by which the spiritual master imparts divya-jnana to the disciple and eradicates all sins is known as diksa.'94 He then explains divya-jnana, or divine knowledge: divyam jnanam hy atra srimati mantre bhagavat svarupajnanam tena bhagavata-sambandha-visesa-jnanam ca - "..

....So the Diksa guru eradicates his sins ,and provides the initial shelter to further empower the sadhaka to eventually understand his eternal specific relationship with krishna and his intimate personal servants .Hopefully i have been loyal to our shared tradition however all sincere devotees please feel free to piont out my devotional frailties and faults present within my humble attempt to learn and present our devotional legacy and personal realisation ....your servant....Sri govinda das.

There are many different quotes from Srila Prabhupada on the topic of qualification. If we take some of those quotes in isolation from each other, we risk having a distorted conception of how these things work.

Some time ago, I came across the following quote from a letter that Srila Prabhupada wrote to Janardana Prabhu, on April 26th, 1968. In the letter Srila Prabhupada seems to be referring to Bon Maharaja when he states:

"On the whole, you may know that he is not a liberated person, and therefore, he cannot initiate any person to Krishna Consciousness."

Srila Prabhupada states "he is not a liberated person, and therefore, he cannot initiate any person". To me, the implication here seems to be that this statement is not only about Bon Maharaja, but that its an expression of a general principle about initiation. In this letter, Srila Prabhupada seems to be saying that non-liberated people are not able to initiate others into Krsna Consciousness.

Theres also a quote from the purport to SB 10.2.18, where Srila Prabhupada specifically uses the term "diksa", and which Ive noticed some people bring attention to on the Internet:

"We should note carefully that the Lord was transferred to Devaki not by the ordinary way for a human being, but by diksa, initiation. Thus the importance of initiation is mentioned here. Unless one is initiated by the right person, who always carries within his heart the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one cannot acquire the power to carry the Supreme Godhead within the core of ones own heart."

Here Srila Prabhupada states that one has to be initiated by the "right person", and that this "right person" always carries the Supreme Personality of Godhead within his heart. This seems to me to tie in with Srila Prabhupadas implication in the 1968 letter to Janardana Prabhu, that in order to initiate others, a person must be liberated. Im assuming here that the reference to a person who "always carries within his heart the Supreme Personality of Godhead" refers to someone on a high level of devotional service, a level that automatically includes liberation as one of its symptoms.Like that,is it?
Ysvt.

Liberation is the result of namabhasa, therefore when a Vaisnava is called nonliberated its most probably an indirect reference to his aparadhas.

Who is qualified to serve as ones point of absolute surrender.
Other people may be, with some degree of honesty, endeavoring to follow Srila Prabhupada. They may be sincere in some ways, but may still have some sensory weakness. Weeds may have grown up in their garden of the heart, as a result of the watering process of Krsna Consciousness, and perhaps some of those weeds are being maintained, not being pulled. This becomes all the more apparent when such a person assumes a role of saksad-hari in relation to others, as history has shown, painfully. For a person who has even the slightest deviation from pure suddha-sattva, a person with some anarthas still in their garden, to present themselves as saksad-hari...thats a pretend position that invites self-deception, and mental gymnastics, in an effort to try to put it all together, to try to force it to make sense, when it doesnt. Isnt it like that prabhus?
Ysvt.

When you have to define what everyone else knows to be a physical act of becoming initiated by receiving a mantra from a guru, you have a serious problem. Why is there a need to re-define diksa? Perhaps because you are using a different concept of sampradaya, a line of teachers and students passing what you claim to be perfect and unbroken knowledge? The two seem to be related in our society.

The name of Krishna on the lips of the supreme Lord (Sri Caitanya) had the power of making all persons, who heard it, realize the truth of whom they had been told by the scriptures. This was a most marvelous experience.

In this Iron Age it is only the name of Krishna appearing on lips of a bona fide sadhu who can lift the conditioned soul to the plane of the absolute. As a matter of fact even the scriptures also can only faintly describe the personality Godhead. The mere study of the scriptures can convey no full knowledge of the absolute as substantive entity. The name Krishna has the power to put the person on the absolute plane and endow the words of the revealed scriptures with their living meaning.

On the plane of the absolute all entities serve Godhead in infinite variety of forms and run harmoniously into, instead of clashing against, one another. Division of the person who once hears the name of Krishna undergoes this marvelous change. He can only then really believe in Godhead because he understands and sees whom he is to serve. He becomes in the substantive sense a bona fide theist or Vaisnava.

-Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Maharaja Prabhupada

[quote][cite] dave:[/cite]For a person who has even the slightest deviation from pure suddha-sattva, a person with some anarthas still in their garden, to present themselves as saksad-hari...thats a pretend position that invites self-deception, and mental gymnastics
.[/quote]
Well actually it is not a presentation or qualification of a guru to be a saksad-hari. It is a glorification of guru and the perception of the disciple. If a person who is in pure suddha-sattva and without any anarthas in their garden presents himself as saksad-hari. he is sure to loose all those qualifications and the level.[br]
I only know of apasampradayas or open mayavadis who discuss it as a qualification of a guru. It is certainly not an adhikara nor it is even an alankara.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]My understanding is that divya jnana is an internal effect of an external bhagavata or pancaratrika ritual if all participants are qualified.
In GV tradition the pancaratrika aspect was introduced by BSST. Before him diksa was of the bhagavata type (no fire yajna).[/quote] I spoke some years back with Sundara, whos dad was a kula-guru or jati gosai from Bangladesh (also joined ISKCON for some time). He confirmed to me that mantras that BSST gave were exactly the same as he or his father are to give to the initiated (and then receive the daksina). Oh well, introducing a fire yajna does not make it a different diksa, daksina is the ingredient of the vedic yajna and pancaratrica yajna, addition of fire sacrifice does not make bhagavata-diksa into a pancaratrica diksa. Diksa by definition is panacaratrica (eg for the purposes of worship of the temple and mantra meditation). While there is an intrinsic bhagavata siddha pranali, we do not talk about it here.

BTW I refer to A Response by the Sastric Advisory Council of 18 March 2003 to DGs proposal to rename siksa into diksa.

I didnt suggest therere different mantras. Let me explain better:
Theres a vaidika diksa, when guru whispers the mantras to the ear of the disciple and explains to him the sambandha tattva. Its traditionally related to a varna (one cant accept a guru from a lower varna) but Vaisnavas disregard that part. In this way theyre adopting pancaratrika (tantrika) diksa standard which doesnt consider varna at all. External aspects of that was added by BSST.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]I didnt suggest therere different mantras. Let me explain better:
Theres a vaidika diksa, when guru whispers the mantras to the ear of the disciple and explains to him the sambandha tattva. Its traditionally related to a varna (one cant accept a guru from a lower varna) but Vaisnavas disregard that part. In this way theyre adopting pancaratrika (tantrika) diksa standard which doesnt consider varna at all. External aspects of that was added by BSST.[/quote] We are aware that we are not talking about vedic diksa, but it is a pancaratrica process diksa (not based on the samhitas but based on the vaisnava-tantra, so that restrictions of the vedic adhikara are not considered). However you said "In GV tradition the pancaratrika aspect was introduced by BSST. Before him diksa was of the bhagavata type." So is it that three types of diksa exist (vaidika, pancaratrica and bhagavat marga?) and are different? In other words - diksa is one of the samskaras, you can have them in vaidica or pancaratrica version, but can not really have bhagavata samskaras. can you?

Alex JablonskiThanks for sharing your thoughts. I have in mind the guru described in verses such as yasya deve para bhaktir... and yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasado. I am thinking of someone on the topmost level of self-realization, someone who it would be healthy to view as saksad-hari, rather than self-destructive. My direct experience is with the ISKCON organization, rather than one of the other groups, so Ill speak about that.

Based on my experience, ISKCON leaders who were presented as being potential points of surrender were not advertised as being fully self-realized.

Or at least, the issue of whether or not they were self-realized was left fuzzy, foggy and unclear. Another issue that was left foggy, fuzzy and unclear was whether or not it was necessary that ones point of surrender be fully self-realized.

For example, the ISKCON leader who I had a student-teacher relationship with, never presented himself to me as being self-realized, nor did I see him as being self-realized. I basically saw him as someone who had been doing this longer than I was. I assumed that he had my best interest at heart, and that he would be capable to help me move forward in Krsna Consciousness, even though I didnt see him as being fully self-realized. I also looked up to him, appreciated his lectures, and I genuinely liked him.'a0

Are the ISKCON gurus on the topmost level of devotional service? Are they fully self-realized? Its not in the short-term interest of ISKCON leaders to answer these questions in a clear and straightforward way. Better keep it murky.

If things are clear, then the charade is obvious. If things are kept foggy, then its easier for the members to live in this fog, to avoid reality, and to maintain patterns of self-deception.

Better to sometimes imply that they are pure, and sometimes state they are "simply sincerely striving to serve, follow, and represent Srila Prabhupada". There is a certain crazymaking quality to it all.

If the gurus are not fully pure, if they are not at the topmost level of devotional service, then why surrender fully to one of them? Does it make sense?

Are the ISKCON gurus on the topmost level of devotional service? Are they on the absolute platform, and fully self-realized?

It doesnt advance the short-term interests of ISKCON leaders to clearly answer "yes" to these questions either, because it would mean that they would have to be held to that standard.

So we are left with a murky back and forth game. It reminds me of those games where someone has three walnut shells and one marble, and they keep moving the walnut shells around, and youre never really sure where the marble is hiding.

Alex JablonskiIm not sure if Ive clearly communicated all I wanted to get across.

Below are some excerpts from an email correspondence that I had with a friend, back in 2007. Hopefully, they will clarify, a bit more, where I am coming from with all of this stuff.

-----------------------------------------

Alex: In my experience, during the time that I participated in the ISKCON organization I didnt get the impression that the approved gurus were promoted as being realized.

Sure, some people may have viewed this or that devotee as realized, and may have advertised them as such, but in general I think that the organization no longer promoted the approved gurus as being realized. I also didnt get the impression that the gurus promoted themselves as such.

Still, the approved gurus were nonetheless promoted as being worthy of being ones point of absolute surrender. In other words, the idea seemed to be that it was good for you to surrender to someone who wasnt realized.

And if you didnt feel inspired to accept one of these individuals as your point of absolute surrender, then there was something wrong with you. Maybe you didnt want to "surrender to the process". Or maybe you were "puffed up", thinking "no one is good enough for me".

(...)

Dhira Govinda: My impression, perception, and experience of the situation in the organization was, and is, something more twisted and discordant than that, regarding the expected view of the aspiring initiate. Something like "Give absolute surrender to someone who may not be on the absolute platform, but you should believe that he definitely is, but then again, in honest, grounded discussions where we get real about things he and we (the body of leaders) may certainly acknowledge that he isnt on that absolute, transcendental platform, but you should see this as humility, merely another indication that he is in fact an exalted transcendentalist...So, hes not on that platform but you should believe with full conviction that he is, and even the admission that hes not is exalted, honest, Vaisnava humility, proving that he really is, but be cautious, because hes really not..." So, perhaps the presentation of the organization is philosophically consistent, but for me Ive never been able to put it together in any coherent manner.

Dhira Govinda was sorted in this paper, I have referred to it perviously. Basically DG is waaaay off:

What about the points Alex raised?

> Nrsingha: What about the points Alex raised?

Principle of sastra does not change with the size of the ego of the disciple or the level of the realization of the guru. On the pancaratrica level the qualifications of guru are not inborn, but achieved by gradual purification. First you need to define what diksa you are talking about:

Various Agamas, or scriptures in pancaratrica tradition, state that initiation is a necessary (nitya) element of the devotional path, it is not an optional or circumstantial element:

dvijuc0u257 nu257 m anupetu257 nu257 u7745
svakarmu257 dhyayanu257 diu7779 u
yathu257 dhiku257 ro nu257 stu299 ha
syu257 c copanayanu257 d anu

tathu257 tru257 du299 ku7779 itu257 nu257 u7745 tu
mantra-devu257 rcanu257 diu7779 u
nu257 dhiku257 ro '91sty atau7717 kuryu257 d
u257 tmu257 nau7745 u347 iva-sau7745 stutam

'93Just as one born in a brahmin family who has not received the sacred thread is ineligible for the performance of Vedic rituals or the study of the Vedic literature, a person who has not received Vaishnava initiation has no authority to chant the mantra or to worship the deity form of the Lord. Therefore one should take initiation, by which he will become praised by even Lord Shiva.'94 (Hari-bhakti-vilu257 sa 2.3-4, Bhakti-sandarbha 283)

We know that, you Nrisimha-dave will not be allowed on the altar in Mayapur or Vrindavana temple, not even in Belfast etc., '93Without being initiated, no one has the right to engage in deity worship.'94
Hari-bhakti-vilu257 sa 2.2)

vinu257 du299 ku7779 u257 u7745 hi pu363 ju257 yu257 u7745
nu257 dhiku257 ro'92sti karhicit

Is there any OTHER must requirement for the diksa? Let us see:

te naru257 u7717 pau347 avo loke
kiu7745 teu7779 u257 u7745 ju299 vane phalam
yair na labdhu257 harer du299 ku7779 u257
nu257 rcito vu257 janu257 rdanau7717
'93Those human beings who have not been initiated into the service of Lord Hari and have never worshiped Him are comparable to animals. What is the value of their lives?'94 (Skanda Purana)

adu299 ku7779 itasya vu257 moru
ku7771 tau7745 sarvau7745 nirarthakam
pau347 u-yonim avu257 pnoti
du299 ku7779 u257 -virahito janau7717

'93Everything done by an uninitiated person is meaningless. One who is not properly initiated will be reborn as an animal.'94 (Hari-bhakti-vilu257 sa 2.6)

Now I am not challenging you or veda on this, but in not instance it devalues diksa based on qualification of a guru, it is largely and evidently irrelevant for diksa according to sastra.

I think Alex point was referring to that person who serves as ones point of absolute surrender.

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]I think Alex point was referring to that person who serves as ones point of absolute surrender.[/quote] That is Krishna. Prabhupada said: "Do no trust me. I may cheat you. Trust Krishna." How does it relate to the definition of diksa? [img]http://www.shadowraven.org/forum/images/smilies/typing.gif[/img]

The person who serves as the point of absolute surrender.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]I think Alex point was referring to that person who serves as ones point of absolute surrender.[/quote] That is Krishna. Prabhupada said: "Do no trust me. I may cheat you. Trust Krishna." How does it relate to the definition of diksa? [/quote]

The statement below suggests that we have to trust both Krishna and the spiritual master:[br][br]
[b]"Only unto those great souls who have implicit faith in both the Lord and the spiritual master are all the imports of Vedic knowledge automatically revealed."[/b] [SU 6.23][br]>>> Ref. VedaBase => Bg 6.47[br][br]Srila Prabhupada cited that verse numerous times throughout his books.

I assume Srila Prabhupada was using a definition of "implicit faith" similar to the following:[br][br]
[quote]"IMPLICIT FAITH. That faith by which a person accepts on the authority of another some doctrine or system which he has not himself considered, or of which he is personally ignorant." [br](http://bluebanner.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=44&Itemid=69)[/quote]
[br]
If we cannot surrender to a spiritual master absolutely, then how is he Krishnas representative?[br][br]

I tried my best to find something resembling "Do not trust me. I may cheat you." There isnt anything like that in the Vedabase. Instead, I found the opposite:[br][br]
[b]"Spiritual master is to be worshiped. Why? Because he does not cheat. He gives the right information. That is his credit. Gurusu nara-mati. Therefore one should not take guru as ordinary human being. Ordinary human being, hell cheat you, or hell give some information, hes cheating. But a guru, real guru, hell not cheat you. Therefore he should be worshiped as good... God does not cheat you. Therefore guru should not be taken as ordinary human being."[/b][br]>>> Ref. VedaBase => Garden Conversation -- June 22, 1976, New Vrindaban

Vaidika diksa is called savitra, or upanayana.
From the following quotes I understand that BSST RE-introduced full-fledged pancaratrika diksa.

"In the consideration of varna, there are three types of birth-saukra, by semen; savitra, by initiation; and daiksa, by becoming a perfect brahmana. Those who want to become twice-born through seminal birth must accept the savitra-samskara, or sacred thread ceremony. Then, by taking Visnu-diksa after becoming a twice-born, one achieves the third, or daiksa, birth. A sudra, however, has no second or third birth. Due to wide-spread discrepancies in the practice of garbhadhana-samskara, it is more reasonable and faultless to ascertain one as a twice-born by his symptoms, nature, and agama-diksa, or Vedic initiation, rather than by seminal consideration. That is why the Vaisnava consideration does not approve of seminal consideration." (CBh. 1.16.293 p. Pundarika Vidyanidhi ed.)

The Hari-bhakti-vilasa (Part 2) quotes the Tattva-sagara as follows:
yatha kancanatam yati kamsyam rasa-vidhanatah
tatha diksa-vidhanena dvijatvam jayate nrnam
"As bell metal, when mixed with mercury, is transformed to gold, a person, even though not golden pure, can be transformed into a brahmana, or dvija, simply by the initiation process." (Hari-bhakti-vilasa 2.12) In his commentary on this verse, Sri Sanatana Gosvami has written: nrnam sarvesam eva, dvijatvam viprata-"All human beings are eligible to become twice-born brahmanas." In his Dig-darsini-tika on Brhad-bhagavatamrta (2.4.37), he has explained the word, diksa-laksana-dharinah-"accepting the signs of initiation," as follows: "Some of them [the residents of Vaikuntha] accepted the signs of initiation, and some of them accepted mantras for worshiping the Lord. They had sacred threads, waterpots, asanas of kusa grass, tulasi beads, and various other signs." In his commentary on the Brahma-samhita (5.27), Sri Jiva Gosvami Prabhu has written: "After being initiated in the chanting of the eighteen syllable mantra, Lord Brahma became a dvija. There was no impediment with this because Lord Brahma was born from Sri Govindadeva, who is the predominating Deity of the eighteen syllable mantra. We can also cite the evidence of Dhruva Maharaja, for he also became a brahmana after initiation." These and innumerable other statements of the scriptures and mahajanas confirm that everyone must be initiated through the pancaratrika process and accept the sacred thread. This has been the process since time immemorial. Therefore Sri Jayatirthapada refers to the vrscika-tanduli-nyaya in his Tattva-prakasika commentary on the Brahma-sutras (1.3.29) to demonstrate that brahminical qualities acquired by birth or by occupation are accepted. The sacred thread ceremony is meant to give one the qualification for studying the Vedas, because the Brahma-sutras state that sudras, or those without sacred thread, are not eligible to hear Vedanta. After accepting pancaratrika mantras and being properly initiated according to the Sri Narada-pancaratra a person must observe the ten samskaras, or purificatory rites, and thereafter hear the meanings of the mantras. (CBh. 1.8.7 p. Pundarika Vidyanidhi ed.)

Very sweet quotes Veda Prabhu,The bell...mercury example i heard at my brahmana initiation many years ago.A small comment the receptivity of ones heart and personal sincerity......naturally empower the sadhaka.However i just listened to the chanting of srila Prabhupada ....as if is the first time !And yes it is actually sublime directly from viakuntha...the spiritual world.He pronounces krishna.....very precisely,acutely.succintly.....siksa........ guru empowerment ki jaya!

Besides that comment by SP after his class in Vindavana this one is in the folio:

One day, however, uc0u346 ru299 la Prabhupu257 da was in a talkative, humorous mood.
"Is a devotee simple or crooked?" he asked smiling.
"He is simple, u346 ru299 la Prabhupu257 da," one disciple answered.
"Are you sure? Is he simple or crooked?" He again asked with a rascal-like gleam in his eye.
"Yes, a devotee is simple!" the disciple enthusiastically responded, not realizing he had fallen for a trick question.
u346 ru299 la Prabhupu257 da then sprang the unexpected punch line.
"Actually, the devotee is crooked!" Everyone stood there with their mouths gaping.
"Take me for example," u346 ru299 la Prabhupu257 da explained. "I came to your country and everyone was eating meat, taking intoxication, and doing so much nonsense. I tricked everyone. Ive tricked all of you into becoming Ku7771 u7779 u7751 a Conscious. So, in that sense the devotee must be crooked, because he must be able to trick. Just like I have tricked everyone. No one wanted Ku7771 u7779 u7751 a Consciousness, but I have tricked you." SPU 28

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]Vaidika diksa is called savitra, or upanayana.
From the following quotes I understand that BSST RE-introduced full-fledged pancaratrika diksa.

"In the consideration of varna, there are three types of birth-saukra, by semen; savitra, by initiation; and daiksa, by becoming a perfect brahmana. Those who want to become twice-born through seminal birth must accept the savitra-samskara, or sacred thread ceremony. Then, by taking Visnu-diksa after becoming a twice-born, one achieves the third, or daiksa, birth. A sudra, however, has no second or third birth. Due to wide-spread discrepancies in the practice of garbhadhana-samskara, it is more reasonable and faultless to ascertain one as a twice-born by his symptoms, nature, and agama-diksa, or Vedic initiation, rather than by seminal consideration. That is why the Vaisnava consideration does not approve of seminal consideration." (CBh. 1.16.293 p. Pundarika Vidyanidhi ed.)

The Hari-bhakti-vilasa (Part 2) quotes the Tattva-sagara as follows:
yatha kancanatam yati kamsyam rasa-vidhanatah
tatha diksa-vidhanena dvijatvam jayate nrnam
"As bell metal, when mixed with mercury, is transformed to gold, a person, even though not golden pure, can be transformed into a brahmana, or dvija, simply by the initiation process." (Hari-bhakti-vilasa 2.12) In his commentary on this verse, Sri Sanatana Gosvami has written: nrnam sarvesam eva, dvijatvam viprata-"All human beings are eligible to become twice-born brahmanas." In his Dig-darsini-tika on Brhad-bhagavatamrta (2.4.37), he has explained the word, diksa-laksana-dharinah-"accepting the signs of initiation," as follows: "Some of them [the residents of Vaikuntha] accepted the signs of initiation, and some of them accepted mantras for worshiping the Lord. They had sacred threads, waterpots, asanas of kusa grass, tulasi beads, and various other signs." In his commentary on the Brahma-samhita (5.27), Sri Jiva Gosvami Prabhu has written: "After being initiated in the chanting of the eighteen syllable mantra, Lord Brahma became a dvija. There was no impediment with this because Lord Brahma was born from Sri Govindadeva, who is the predominating Deity of the eighteen syllable mantra. We can also cite the evidence of Dhruva Maharaja, for he also became a brahmana after initiation." These and innumerable other statements of the scriptures and mahajanas confirm that everyone must be initiated through the pancaratrika process and accept the sacred thread. This has been the process since time immemorial. Therefore Sri Jayatirthapada refers to the vrscika-tanduli-nyaya in his Tattva-prakasika commentary on the Brahma-sutras (1.3.29) to demonstrate that brahminical qualities acquired by birth or by occupation are accepted. The sacred thread ceremony is meant to give one the qualification for studying the Vedas, because the Brahma-sutras state that sudras, or those without sacred thread, are not eligible to hear Vedanta. After accepting pancaratrika mantras and being properly initiated according to the Sri Narada-pancaratra a person must observe the ten samskaras, or purificatory rites, and thereafter hear the meanings of the mantras. (CBh. 1.8.7 p. Pundarika Vidyanidhi ed.)[/quote] That is closer to the definition of diksa, so diksa does relate to becoming a dvija and to purificatory rites. (Not to silver spoons...)

Vaisnava sadhana is of two rails for train back to Godhead: (1) bhagavata-marg, wherein formal initiation may not be required, but this samskara is recommended to help fix the disciple in service at lotus feet of his guru; (2) pancaratriki-marg, wherein formal diksa is required samskara as one is to worship arca-murti in formal manner of vaidhi

"Some astrologer told that "This boy, for executing his purpose, he will enter into the fire." Yes."'a0

Morning Walk -- March 11, 1975, London

When Srila Prabhupada talks about the process of diksa, he sometimes appears to be referring to a secondary aspect of it: the initiation ceremony itself, and other times, he seems to be referring to diksa in the essential and primary sense: as the transmission of transcendental knowledge from teacher to student, "divya jnanam ksapayati iti diksa".

When I talk about "diksa", its this second, primary and essential aspect of the process that Im interested in. In my experience, focusing too much on the external aspect of the process of diksa, that is, focusing too much on the initiation ceremony, turns the whole thing hollow. It just becomes a ritualistic thing.'a0

As I read your post, I thought of an excerpt that I read on a sub page of the veda.harekrsna.cz website, from Ekanatha Prabhu. The quote below doesnt come from Srila Prabhupada, but nicely ties in to a number of Srila Prabhupadas statements:

"Jiva Gosvami quotes one verse from the Agamas (Visnu-yamala) in anuccheda 283 of the Bhakti-sandarbha. There it is stated that diksa means that one receives divya-jnana from the guru and that this divya-jnana destroys the seeds of ones sinful desires. But this is really all. He doesnt say that this must be done by some formality. In other words, we may also conclude that a person who hears divya-jnana, and whose doubts and sinful desires are consequently destroyed, must thus be considered initiated."

As you said, diksa is both the result and the process. SAC findings above put this quote into a different light though. Ccd, could you please provide the exact quotes with refs so I can do the needful?

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]The quote below doesnt come from Srila Prabhupada, but nicely ties in to a number of Srila Prabhupadas statements:

"Jiva Gosvami quotes one verse from the Agamas (Visnu-yamala) in anuccheda 283 of the Bhakti-sandarbha. There it is stated that diksa means that one receives divya-jnana from the guru and that this divya-jnana destroys the seeds of ones sinful desires. But this is really all. He doesnt say that this must be done by some formality. In other words, we may also conclude that a person who hears divya-jnana, and whose doubts and sinful desires are consequently destroyed, must thus be considered initiated."[/quote]

Would the reverse be true as well? Can we also conclude that a person who hears divya-jnana, and whose doubts and sinful desires are NOT destroyed, must thus be considered NOT initiated? How do we prove that someones doubts and sinful desires are destroyed, or not destroyed? Using such plastic definitions of diksa we enter into a very nebulous territory of not being sure who was, and who was not initiated. That in itself is completely bogus and useless.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]As you said, diksa is both the result and the process. SAC findings above put this quote into a different light though. Ccd, could you please provide the exact quotes with refs so I can do the needful?[/quote] I have already uploaded the word doc of the SAC (SACRespo_FINAL.doc). What exact quotes and ref.s you need? I will look up.

>Can we also conclude that a person who hears divya-jnana, and whose doubts and sinful desires are NOT destroyed, must thus be considered NOT initiated?

That can not work, because an advanced devotee (unlike a neophyte) even he has no material desires, would never think himself liberated - see for example Saranagati of Bhaktivinoda Thakura, or ye yata patita haya, tava daya tata taya, tate ami supatra dayara (Gitamala, Yamuna-bhavavali 19) "Your grace is given in accordance with the
necessity of those who really deserve it. In that consideration, I have some claim. I am fallen of the fallen, the most fallen, so I have some claim to Your grace." Or SB 7.9.39? Eve if you are not that advanced and you still have sinful desires the SB 10.14.8 applies. At no point Prabhupada would reject his disciples for sin or sinful desires. However forms of vaisnava aparadhas, such as guru avajna and other nindas, and specifically for rejecting order of the spiritual master and his words actually were times when he rejected a disciple or two. Probably the worst one is to take money the belong to the spiritual master and run off, or to reject the guru, that actually voids the diksa, not being sinful (what to speak of just having sinful desires). Desires and the roots of desires are not destroyed until very very high stages of Bhakti, like prema and prema is not possible in this material world. Bharata Maharaja fell from bhava stage due to material desires, but he continues in his next human life (maybe he did not get diksa?)

>How do we prove that someones doubts and sinful desires are destroyed, or not destroyed?
Yes there is a conclusive proof, saksad darsana of Krishna. Before that even if one is on the stage of prema there is a potential of anarthas. Doubts? That depends on what kind of doubts. Doubts like, will Krsna come back from Mathura or not are not destroyed;-) But doubts like: will Krsna protect me always? That one is destroyed at that stage.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]>How do we prove that someones doubts and sinful desires are destroyed, or not destroyed?
Yes there is a conclusive proof, saksad darsana of Krishna. Before that even if one is on the stage of prema there is a potential of anarthas. [/quote]

My point was, that using such a nebulous definition of diksa it is impossible for an average devotee to verify who was, and was not initiated by any given guru. Case in point: Srila Prabhupadas worst case disgraced disciples - were they actually given diksa?

Introducing bogus concepts (such as a new definition of diksa) has both doctrinal and practical negative consequences. Why not stick with the tried and true old concepts?

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]>How do we prove that someones doubts and sinful desires are destroyed, or not destroyed?
Yes there is a conclusive proof, saksad darsana of Krishna. Before that even if one is on the stage of prema there is a potential of anarthas. [/quote]

My point was, that using such a nebulous definition of diksa it is impossible for an average devotee to verify who was, and was not initiated by any given guru. Case in point: Srila Prabhupadas worst case disgraced disciples - were they actually given diksa?[/quote]
Whoever received diksa from Prabhupada are his diksa disciples. Nobody can dispute it. I am against of introducing bogus concepts (such as a new definition of diksa)

"Why not stick with the tried and true old concepts?" Exactly the point, I want to get to the bottom of it.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite] I am against of introducing bogus concepts (such as a new definition of diksa)

"Why not stick with the tried and true old concepts?" Exactly the point, I want to get to the bottom of it.[/quote]

I am with you here, 100%.
There is no need to re-invent the wheel. All we have to do is fix the flat tire... ;)

Alex JablonskiThanks for your comments. Diksa is a process. Id like to share an excerpt from a post by Audarya-lila Prabhu, that I found on the Audarya Fellowship forum. I found it interesting. The comment mentions Sridahra, and Im not personally a follower of Sridhara, but I still think the quote has value.'a0

---------------------

"Diksha is a two way affair - a relationship. It is not a one time thing where one recieves a mantra and then its done. We develop gradually in our spiritual lives. As I understand it -the process goes on forever, but in terms of being complete - when one reaches to the stage of bhava then real spiritual life begins to dawn. Until such time there will be many ups and downs, trials and tribulations - but when one is fixed -nistha - then some genuine taste (bhava) begins to arise in the sadhaka.

"Sri Guru is there throughout the development of the sadhaka to guide and help the disciple progress. Sridhara Maharaja has spoken in another way about spiritual life - he said we are all students forever. Since diksha is the transmission of divya jnana, or realized knowledge - and that is constantly unfolding - one could say that Diksha continues on forever."

------------(end of excerpt)------------

One of the things that Ive been intrigued by, other the past while, has been Mahesh Raja Prabhus articles wherein he asserts that initiation in the true sense takes place when the recipient is on the level of madhyama. Ive been collecting emails that he sent to a list that Im part of, and Id be interested to eventually correspond with him, in order to better understand the ideas hes presenting. In his writings, Mahesh Raja puts forward some interesting quotes from Srila Prabhupada, such as the following, from the purport to Nectar of Instruction 5:'a0

------------------

"The kanistha-adhikari is a neophyte who has received the harinama initiation from the spiritual master and is trying to chant the holy name of Krsna. One should respect such a person within his mind as a kanistha-vaisnava. A madhyama-adhikari has received spiritual initiation from the spiritual master and has been fully engaged by him in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. The madhyama-adhikari should be considered to be situated midway in devotional service."

------------(end of excerpt)------------

Before seeing Mahesh Raja making reference to it, Id never really thought about the above quote in terms of the transfer of divya-jnana, and its certainly intriguing. The contrast being between "harinama initiation" (which in this case might conceivably refer to the initiation ceremony) and "spiritual initiation" (which might refer to initiation proper).'a0

To give you an idea of where Im coming from, I took a Bhakti Sastri course in Philly in 2000, and one hokey idea that seemed to be floating around was to conflate "having participated in a brahminical initiation ceremony" with "being a madhyama adhikari". It was never quite stated so bluntly, but in a fuzzy roundabout way that was the message I was getting. Another variation of this seemed to be to imply that those who were worshipping the Deity in the temple were kanisthas, and those who were "teaching the sastras" (i.e. teaching Bhakti Sastri) were madhyamas. Stuff like that.'a0

Anyway, theres all kinds of flavors and variations of cheapening the meaning of initiation. When all is said and done, the gradual and ongoing internal transformation will be of more lasting value, and will be more internally satisfying, than the external symbols of success, and externals in general.'a0

We could, I guess, compare the process of initiation to the process of boiling milk. When I put a pot of milk on the fire, I can say that I have started to boil the milk, though the milk itself might not yet have reached its boiling point. Then, at some point after having come in contact with the heat, the milk will acutally be boiling. And then one can truly say that the milk is boiling.

I can say that the process of diksa has begun for me, through my contact with Srila Prabhupadas teachings, and that this process is active in my life, still I would not say that I am yet initiated in the true sense. Like the milk which has come in contact with the heat of the stove, I am warming, but am not boiling. It is not yet initiation in the sense of divya-jnana hrde prokasito, knowledge revealed in the heart.

In 2000, in Philadelphia I sat in front of a fire, and participated in a ceremony where Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu was present. How did I receive "diksa initiation" from Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu? How did it take place? Did I in fact receive "diksa initiation" from Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu? If one answers either "yes" or "no" to this last question, isnt this simply another mystical esoteric claim that no one can verify? How does my direct personal experience of the events of that day factor into all of this?'a0

The following quote is also from Srila Prabhupadas "Elevation to Krsna Consciousness":

------------------------

"If we want to purchase a mango from the market, we must at least know what type of food a mango is and what it looks like."

------------(end of excerpt)------------

I could assert something like "In 2000, in Philadelphia, I did not receive diksa initiation from Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu." Actually, I do assert this.

If someone objects to my assertion, how can they respond? They might say something like: "Yes you did", perhaps followed by an explanation of their understanding of what constitutes "diksa initiation". Can a person prove that my assertion is wrong? Can they verify it? I know that a person could describe the external (exoteric) events that took place in the Philly temple on that day. Would a description of those exoteric events be sufficient to prove or verify that "diksa initiation" had taken place? When we say that Krsna Consciousness is a science, do we mean it? Or are we co-opting a word, in hopes of attracting gullible people?'a0

I have been in contact with Krsna Consciousness for about 14 years now, and not that I am the yardstick by which others should be judged, but I feel like I am at the level milk placed on the stove, but not yet boiling. I have read some of Srila Prabhupadas books, heard some lectures, and Im endeavoring to put things into practice, and thats where Im at, where I want to be. I havent had any mystical experience where knowledge is revealed in my heart. But I can say that some spark from Srila Prabhupada must have landed deaply in my heart, and imbedded itself there, because I keep feeling myself pulled forward, and I continue to feel inspired by Srila Prabhupadas process, on a daily basis.

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]I can say that the process of diksa has begun for me, through my contact with Srila Prabhupadas teachings, and that this process is active in my life, still I would not say that I am yet initiated in the true sense. Like the milk which has come in contact with the heat of the stove, I am warming, but am not boiling. It is not yet initiation in the sense of divya-jnana hrde prokasito, knowledge revealed in the heart.
[/quote]

Diksa is called initiation for a reason. It is a beginning of something, not an attainment of some tangible perfection.

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite][quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]I can say that the process of diksa has begun for me, through my contact with Srila Prabhupadas teachings, and that this process is active in my life, still I would not say that I am yet initiated in the true sense. Like the milk which has come in contact with the heat of the stove, I am warming, but am not boiling. It is not yet initiation in the sense of divya-jnana hrde prokasito, knowledge revealed in the heart.
[/quote]

Diksa is called initiation for a reason. It is a beginning of something, not an attainment of some tangible perfection.[/quote] Yes a beginning. Another speculation is that because diksa is a process (actually it is not) you can not say "I have received diksa". Like with any beginning, it is a defined happening in time. It is something that happened. It is something one must aspire for if he did not have it and something one must live up to, if it happened.

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]In 2000, in Philadelphia I sat in front of a fire, and participated in a ceremony where Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu was present. How did I receive "diksa initiation" from Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu? How did it take place? Did I in fact receive "diksa initiation" from Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu? If one answers either "yes" or "no" to this last question, isnt this simply another mystical esoteric claim that no one can verify? How does my direct personal experience of the events of that day factor into all of this?[/quote] Your direct personal experience can be influenced by the fact that you are not a disciple of RSP:-) So there could be a few more questions on that... but the answer is, no dave, in 2000 you did not get diksa, since you just set close to the fire... you may be a disciple of someone without getting formal diksa, but you can not get a formal diksa from someone without that person accepting you as a disciple.

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite] I am against of introducing bogus concepts (such as a new definition of diksa)

"Why not stick with the tried and true old concepts?" Exactly the point, I want to get to the bottom of it.[/quote]

I am with you here, 100%.
There is no need to re-invent the wheel. All we have to do is fix the flat tire... ;)[/quote] I am amazed to what lengths a mind will go to escape a simple procedure of being in servitude and instead will create so many new concepts to remain a master. Yes, re-inventing the wheel is a good example. And if it does not work, the mind will tell you, great you been a good boy, at least you tried.

Actually many devotees when i was initiated were already initiated before our formal initiation ...fire yajna.Many years later i asked his grace tamala krishna goswami about it.I had come to this conclusion because many were already convinced while on sankirtan,they were empowered to please krishna while i was barely able to get out of the sankirtan vehicle.....While i was putting a book in their hands ....They were indeed convinced that without this book the non-devotee was headed for a sad destination....His grace agreed when he was giving initiation it was a formalisation ...a continuation of the potency of sankirtan....because these devotees were sincere krishna as the original spiritual master was already personally encouraging and nourishing them.Yes nrsingha prabhu your understanding is correct until one gets to the madyama platform and is able to actively engage in some form of sankirtan..preaching..books,sankirtan of some nature where by you take the demons energy and cheat them, back to godhead you are certainly still a luke warm kanistha.You are not convinced and mature enough to sacrifice your own veiw for Prabhupadas vision to preach.....and then your gurus vision and even your temple presidents veiw also....however these Bhaktas were already enthusiastically serving ...before initiation.

Oh yeah, one more thing -- re-initiation is not bona fide. There is nothing to it, just period.

As a consequence they were involved in many ecstatic devotional experiences while selling and distributing books and paraphenalia ....Such paraphenalia and book distibution was dangerous because initially in Australia the police used to attack us....We had many silver spoon experiences where krishna personally gives wonderful reciprocation at ecstatic personal moments.....which further convinces you that these methods were indeed being sanctioned by krishna and srila Prabhupada.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite] I am amazed to what lengths a mind will go to escape a simple procedure of being in servitude and instead will create so many new concepts to remain a master. [/quote]

This is one of the main reasons to adopt a concept of a remote guru. You do not have to surrender to a real person that talks directly to you. You are surrendering to your own concept of a guru, and to your own concept of his instructions for you. -------------- Accepting a guru has at least as much to do with smashing your own false ego as with obtaining knowledge. Prabhupadas direct interactions with his disciples were primarily about peeling away their post-American, post-hippie egos. And when he left, the egos flourished like weeds... the books and other instructions were still there, but there was nobody to smash their egos. When Sridhara Maharaja tried to whittle down their egos - the big monkeys run off screaming obscenities at that great Vaishnava. And so they were doomed to fail...

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite] I am amazed to what lengths a mind will go to escape a simple procedure of being in servitude and instead will create so many new concepts to remain a master. [/quote]

This is one of the main reasons to adopt a concept of a remote guru. You do not have to surrender to a real person that talks directly to you. You are surrendering to your own concept of a guru, and to your own concept of his instructions for you. [/quote] The only reason I find devotees invent the concept or choose not to surrender is because of pride. Myself included. Pride is such a thing it makes you spin and spin and will never let you surrender to another senior devotee and be trained by him (oh he is not good enough, diksa is a process etc etc.,) I have such a difficulty with it myself, it is very hard for me to be trained by others. I would not go into politics and would not call names, they are all senior devotees to me, as far as the 1982 schism goes. It actually was not initiated by him or them, it came from the tension of the followers of the two camps, let us not repeat the history, for apologies were already made again and again.

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite]
Would the reverse be true as well? Can we also conclude that a person who hears divya-jnana, and whose doubts and sinful desires are NOT destroyed, must thus be considered NOT initiated? How do we prove that someones doubts and sinful desires are destroyed, or not destroyed? Using such plastic definitions of diksa we enter into a very nebulous territory of not being sure who was, and who was not initiated. That in itself is completely bogus and useless.[/quote]

Long before Id ever considered a "rtvik" view, I could not help but wonder if my harinam initiation ceremony was simply a show. It had no effect beyond what could be achieved by blind faith in a bogus process. On the other hand, what I got from Srila Prabhpuadas books was the firm conviction that Sri Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the ultimate controller and object of true love, and that everyone is His eternal servant. My impetus to chant His names, especially the Hare Krishna mahamantra, came at the same time. [br][br]
How can a ceremony that had no positive impact in my life compare to that?[br][br]
Even when my enthusiasm was smashed by my so-called guru, I could not entertain any doubt about Krishnas unuque position the Supreme Personality of Godhead, only because of what Srila Prabhupada did for me. I just thought that rejection by the devotees meant that I had been cast as a demon, and so Krishna did not like to hear my chanting. It was miserable and a difficult hole to climb out from. It is also miserable to repeatedly hear from devotees that Srila Prabhupada cannot be my diksa guru, and just makes me want to go away to protect my devotional creeper; but at the same time I have Krishnas advice to get some association of His devotees, so I cant give it up.[br][br]
Everything I have in my spiritual life came from Srila Prabhupadas books, and most of it not by linear reading but by a mystical encounter that [i]Bhavagad-gita As It Is[/i] produced long before I had ever met a devotee. It feels so wrong to have to think of my initiation as the fire sacrifice that apparently did nothing, when the real thing definitely came long before by Srila Prabhupadas mercy.

Diksa is not a magic - it is outward expression of humility as well. It hurts the proud and makes humble more humble.

For me, the process of initiation began as I came in contact with Srila Prabhupadas teachings. Various people assisted me, pushed me forward, shared with me their realizations, and in various other ways nurtured that process. Srila Prabhupada was the essential and indispensible person in that process.'a0

"Diksa" and "initiation" are intimately related concepts, though it makes sense to me to use caution in using them fully interchangeably.

In the purport to SB 4.31.10, there is the following, which I find interesting:

"As bell metal, when mixed with mercury, is transformed to gold, a person, even though not golden pure, can be transformed into a brahmana, or dvija, simply by the initiation process."

At the end of this post is an excerpt from an email correspondence that I had with A senior devotee in 2007. Hopefully it will help shed a bit more light on where I am coming from with this. I like the way he captures these things in words

--------------------------

Krsna dasa: (...) "Suppose we hear from Srila Prabhupada, and based on this hearing we chant sixteen rounds per day, rise early, study his books, participate in Hari Nam kirtan and bhajan, etc. So, someone in such a situation might claim I am receiving transcendental knowledge from Srila Prabhupada, and this is the essence of initiation, so I am initiated by Srila Prabhupada. I think, though, that this would be a shallow understanding, or a misunderstanding, of the process. To understand how and why, it is important to grasp a distinction between siksa and diksa.'a0

"My understanding is that the person described in the paragraph above is receiving siksa from Srila Prabhupada. (...) It is knowledge received through the external senses, though not the essential divya-jnana, spiritual knowledge received in the heart of the soul, as Lord Brahma was initiated by Sri Krsna- tene brahma hrda ya adi-kavaye, or as described in the prayers to the spiritual master, divya jnan hrde prokoshito. So, as we receive siksa and follow the instructions and absorb the knowledge, then it becomes diksa, with divya-jnana received at the soul level, as the essence.'a0

"As weve discussed many times, initiation is a process. We connect with this process from the first time we encounter Srila Prabhupadas books, or hear the Maha Mantra in the line of the authentic parampara, etc. So its a process, and at some point in the process we may say that initiation has actually taken place, just like we may say The milk is boiling, though actually its in the process of boiling. Then at some particular point the milk is actually at the boiling point, and that in itself can also be seen as just the beginning of the boiling process." (...)'a0

Me: (...) "I have been in contact with Krsna Consciousness for 11 years now, and not that I am the yardstick by which others should be judged, but I feel like I am at that first level you describe. I have read some of Srila Prabhupadas books, heard some lectures, and Im endeavoring to put things into practice, and thats where Im at, where I want to be. I havent had any mystical experience where knowledge is revealed in my heart. The first level that you describe, which you call siksa, thats what I want." (...)'a0

Krsna dasa: "I appreciate your personal sharing. For myself, I could replace 11 years with 27 years, and express much the same as you have. Certainly I couldnt say that by adherence to Srila Prabhupadas siksa, the essence of divya-jnana has congealed in my heart and thus I am receiving diksa in the true sense. My adherence is sporadic and shallow. For myself I wouldnt say that I havent had any mystical experience, or knowledge revealed in my heart. Whatever my lack of qualifications and sincerity, I believe that something, some spark, has landed deeply, due to the mercy of Srila Prabhupada and Krsna. Otherwise I dont think Id be able to continue steadily reading Srila Prabhupadas books and chanting sixteen rounds per day, however inattentively that may be. It seems to me that the siksa and diksa processes work spontaneously, interactively, not necessarily linearly, though the general process is that siksa, following instructions, leads to diksa, genuine divya-jnana revealed and received at the level of the soul.'a0

"The question raised is the point at which enough genuine divya-jnana, real diksa, is present so as to qualify for a formal initiation ceremony. The principles involving the distinctions and relationship between siksa and diksa are philosophical. The issue of what constitutes the precise boiling point and therefore the point at which formal initiation is appropriate, may be more managerial in nature."'a0

(...)

Krsna dasa: "I am intrigued to further understand these discussions, about divya-jnana, siksa, diksa, and initiation, in the framework of Srila Prabhupadas purport below:

SB 4:12:19- Purport- "There are different levels of acquired knowledge- direct knowledge, knowledge received from authorities, transcendental knowledge, knowledge beyond the senses, and finally spiritual knowledge. When one surpasses the stage of acquiring knowledge by the descending process, he is immediately situated on the transcendental platform. Dhruva Maharaja, being liberated from the material concept of life, was situated in transcendental knowledge and could perceive the presence of a transcendental airplane which was as brilliant as the full moonlight. This is not possible in the stages of direct or indirect perception of knowledge. Such knowledge is a special favor of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One can, however, rise to this platform of knowledge by the gradual process of advancing in devotional service, or Krsna consciousness."

Prabhus I find thefollowing quotes helpful for clarifying understanding,especially in the context of the above.

------------

"Then you can say Yes, I know everything Diksa. Diksa, initiation, diksa, this Sanskrit word, diksa, means divya-jnanam ksipayati ask from spiritual master with service and surrender the transcendental knowledge. The more you ask, you become a man of knowledge. Then you can challenge, and then Yes, I know everything." [Srila Prabhupada, Morning Walk, 11th June, 1974]

(...)

"Diksa means divya-jnanam ksapayati iti diksa. Which explains the divya-jnana, transcendental, that is diksa. Di, divya, diksanam. diksa. So divya-jnana, transcendental knowledge... If you dont accept a spiritual master, how youll get transcen... youll be taught here and there, here and there, and waste time. Waste time for the teacher and waste your valuable time. Therefore you have to be guided by an expert spiritual master." [Srila Prabhupada, Room Conversation, January 27th, 1977, in Bhubaneswar]

------------(end of excerpts)------------

In a lecture from April 1st, 1977, in Bombay, Srila Prabhupada writes:

------------

"And for understanding that superior identity we require superior knowledge, not ordinary knowledge. Divya-jnana hrde prakasito. So this is the duty of the guru, to awaken that divya-jnana. Divya-jnana. And because guru enlightens that divya-jnana, he is worshiped. That is required. The modern... Modern or always; this is maya. That divya-jnana is never, I mean to say, manifested. They are kept in the darkness of adivya-jnana."

------------(end of excerpt)------------

Doesnt initiation gradually take us out of the darkness of adivya-jnana, into the light of divya-jnana? The person who truly initiates us is special. Is it not so? In the April 1st, 1977 lecture from Bombay, Srila Prabhupada writes:

------------

"One who has got this divya-jnana, vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma, that is mahatma. But that is very, very rare."

------------(end of excerpt)------------

How rare is such a person? Below is another neat quote from Srila Prabhupada:

------------

"Unless one is a resident of Krishna Loka, one cannot be a Spiritual Master. That is the first proposition. A layman cannot be a Spiritual Master, and if he becomes so then he will simply create disturbance." [Srila Prabhupada Letter to Mukunda, 6/10/69]

------------(end of excerpt)------------

What happens is when a marriage fails, a wife goes to the fathers house. If most fail you will have a country where it is a normal thing, and thus they will be considered married to the father, that is not normal, but try explaining it to the wife who had a bad marriage experience. We made it worst by suggesting that disciples of Prabhupada who got first initiation from him actually received diksa from Prabhupada. Of course it is looked at much stricter when various devotees are to be become guru, I remember they refused Mayapur Candra, because he did not receive diksa from Prabhupada, only first initiation.

So atmavan manyate jagat. However there is only one definition of diksa, all others are imaginations.

Actually ccd ...your personal opinion lacks because you are not a compassionate loving sankirtan devotee...in my opinion....Also what nrsingha Prabhu is referring to if i maybe so bold is a natural experience for a young devotee.....I have personally noticed it hundreds of times.The initiating spiritual master is already present.However a formalisation of that diksa -guru relationship must take place....with a present personally present diksa guru to further empower the young sadhaka.It is not imagination !...The siksa relationship many of us have with srila Prabhupada is potent and can indeed propel us forward in devotional service.We can become situated on the madyama platform easily.I had one freind who was not formally initiated for over thirty years.....But recently took to accepting a diksa guru ...even though both had infact jioned at the same time approximately.Both devotees accepted it as diksa but both accepted they were forfilling different roles in this particular instance.....hare krishna...ccd Prabhu.

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]Actually ccd ...your personal opinion lacks because you are not a compassionate loving sankirtan devotee...in my opinion....Also what nrsingha Prabhu is referring to if i maybe so bold is a natural experience for a young devotee....[/quote] He is not that young. But it is true that I do not have a compassionate nature (no silver spoons, sorry, they runout in 1976 and I looked on ebay - nothing). Siksa is potent of course, especially with Srila Prabhupada, but you are not suggesting redefining siksa into diksa do you?[br][br] I have absolutely no issue with someone having no diksa guru, that is completely and absolutely fine, we have Iskcon directors who are bhaktas for 20 years. I have an issue with someone making a philosophy out of their situation. Like if you have no guru you will find some selective quote saying that guru is not required in kali yuga or something. In the same way just because your diksa guru is not active, you will imagine that he is not your diksa guru and redefine siksa as diksa. Am I right?

Yes prabhu you are indeed correct....sorry i was blinded by the last silver spoon episode yesterday on sankirtan.....i cleaned up ! Krishna was indeed merciful ....YES ....Some of these people seem to have hidden agendas .But nrsingha is young or immature in the sense he is speculating ...rather than naturally assimulating or serving an older devotee ,with a submissive mood and inquiring spirit . ...However i was thrilled that yesterday an old sankirtan dog ,like myself was encouraged personally by sri-krishna chaitanya ...So such preaching rasa is indeed availablewhere sincere souls take the order of their spiritual master as their life and soul,and attempt to do something tangible.....wether Sivarama swami thinks you are aloud to have a connection or not.....being a sankirtan devotee ,Radharani is our sankirtan leader ,and she is able to sustain us.

Yes nrsingha prabhu your quotes are inddeed relishable,and within every temple the devotees that go out and serve krishna ,,,,by introducing the non-devotees to krishna regularly will in time become vaikunta men....And eventually qualified to take many others back to godhead....Siksa guru or diksa both are extremely rare individuals ...hare krishna.Try it for ten years....Twenty years.....Thirty years.....or more!

My dear nrsingha prabhu ,so after becoming a sincere vaikuntha person what is ones constitutional position?And then will such a person surrender to temple authorities of iskcon,which is what was Srila PRABHUPADAS intention....or concoct some other nonsense ?In my day such surrender was symptomised by full surrender to Krishnas representative.Then the guru personally who your new authority was!We were subordinate to his temple president.We all engaged literally 16-18 hours a day...there was little room for mayadevi.What is your determination?Where is this vaikunta man meant to start his serious path of full surrender ...blessed by our many siksa gurus....?Or do you have a another idea to introduce.

I might like to get formal initiation from Gurudas or Syamasundara prabhus.

All my previous posts on this thread were written by someone else and do not express my personal understandings and any conclusion.

Ysvt.

Hare krishna Prabhu...may Sri Radha giridhari bless you.All glories to gurudas and Syamasundara prabhus.

Interesting the introduction to chaitanya charatamrita....Krishna das kaviraja was the direct disciple of both Rupa goswami Prabhupada and Raghunatha goswami....Two diksa gurus ....!Does anyone know how this diksa happened ,or is there more examples of dual diksa....please?

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]Interesting the introduction to chaitanya charatamrita....Krishna das kaviraja was the direct disciple of both Rupa goswami Prabhupada and Raghunatha goswami....Two diksa gurus ....!Does anyone know how this diksa happened ,or is there more examples of dual diksa....please?[/quote]?? reference

Chapter 1
The Spiritual Masters
Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is none other than the combined form of Sri Radha and Krsna. He is the life of those devotees who strictly follow in the footsteps of Srila Rupa Gosvami. Srila Rupa Gosvami and Srila Sanatana Gosvami are the two principal followers of Srila Svarupa Damodara Gosvami, who acted as the most confidential servitor of Lord Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu, known as Visvambhara in His early life. A direct disciple of Srila Rupa Gosvami was Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami. The author of Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami, stands as the direct disciple of Srila Rupa Gosvami and Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami.....From Chaitanya Charatamrita.....

>The author of Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami, stands as the direct disciple of Srila Rupa Gosvami and Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami

Where does it say diksa? You can be direct siksa disciple (did he ever meet Rupa Goswami?) Did Raghunatha Goswami ever get Diksa from Rupa Goswami?

So i am direct disciple of Srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati goswami.....?

Have you been converted to ritvik babaji....ccd

Certainly not. You are diksa disciple of Bhavananda Prabhu and a siksa disciple of Srila Tamala Krishna Goswami. A grad disciple of Srila Prabhupada.

You can be direct siksa disciple of Prabhupada. That what I was saying all along. You can not be direct diksa disciple of Srila Prabhupada. Is it so hard to understand?

Thank you ccd ....the penny hopefully dropped....however direct disciple....

That is not the goal to be "direct anything". We always want to be servant of the servant. Svarupa Damodara Gosvami instructed Dasa Goswami, on the order of Mahaprabhu to illustrate that. I kind of wonder if this emphasis on diksa will ever end? We really need to define it and put it aside as not as critical as siksa, seriously.

But such thoughts seem to fall on deaf ears prabhu.Because within Iskcon we become a team oriented society where gurus to achieve big change in the demons society must have a solid tight team,with which to get preaching results.
Naturally this DIKSA oriented growth has created a warped perception with inherent problems especially when the guru falls.Such is the clicky ,unhealthy mentality of Devamrita swamis disciple in my country.They are his disciples first.....2ND and as a result show inability to comprehend the value of older devotee association.But now our managers have started to kick them out of our temples because they are only interested in taking.Looking for victims to take from .....when you are amongst devotees is a short sighted sad spiritual vision.Personally they need to worship deities as the centre of their preaching and household communities.....
Another perversion though manifests ,....such diksa line mentality puts an unhealthy emphasis on especially the women staying single and attempting to be temple presidents....telling the men what to do!Therefore you have women interrupting the older devotees when they try and clean this nonsense up.....when it comes into our temple environments.

Then you have the appearance of the New Vrindavan variety of attempts to improve Srila Prabhupadas legacy.The new improved ,so much better than Srila Prabhupada gave us ..... vegan is superior,because you are able to practise Cow protection without even having cows.....But when i explained that when the cows milk from explioted cows is not used in krishnas personal service that cow receives no benefit.Hence you are foolishly taking away their service to krishna.....They packed up all the nonsense and ran back to the preaching centre....All based on diksa based distortions which are appearing more and more often.

ollowing the logic of atmavan manyate jagat (everyone thinks like I do), the bahirmukha-sisyas consider that their guru thinks like they do. Because they are motivated by the desires for fame and adoration they think that their guru also wants such things. The bahirmukha-sisyas are anartha-yukta-avastha, they have anarthas, material desires, in their hearts. Because of those anarthas they only see guru in terms of their own pleasure. This vision is known as bhogya-darsana. They think that making a big show of devotion will impress their guru and enable them to come close to their guru. Their idea of guru-bhakti is to loudly proclaim to the world, amar guru jagad-guru - "My guru is the best or the only one and any other guru is lesser." They think that such publicizing will please their guru....Such words were spoken by Srila Bhaktivinoda takura

Nice Sri Govinda! Spot on,imho!

All this diksa confusion and what not will resolve with advent of The Officer.

HK!

I tend to agree that there is a team aura associated with gurus in ISKCON. Be they diksa or as the case may be siksa (possibly the reason why Prabhupada introduced them on the geographical principle "whoever is the closest"). But the truth is that it is not evil in itself. Evil is when diksa makes siksa look inferior... It is siksa teams that are based on geographical principle that are better. You are right Nrsimha (dave), the introduction (soon to happen) of "The Officer" will not improve or change it. Nor the new proposal on the lines of authority, unless and until every single manager and local GBC is also a powerful siksa guru who ONLY represents Prabhupadas view, only then it will be healthy. But first we need to define diksa;-)

ccd- "possibly the reason why Prabhupada introduced them diksa guru on the geographical principle "whoever is the closest")."

NOT TRUE!
ysvt.

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]ccd- "possibly the reason why Prabhupada introduced them diksa guru on the geographical principle "whoever is the closest")."

NOT TRUE!
ysvt.[/quote] Again you (seems to me) are coming up with this ritvik propaganda that he did not select diksa gurus. He did select a few devotees to be initiating and to be gurus, and he did mention whoever is the closest (or your local) - now lets see if they were diksa gurus. I could be wrong to suggest it is the only right way diksa must be done (and I did not suggest it, I just suggested regional siksa) and there are good reason to object to this system (of regional siksa), but only if you make those devotees into a super human acharyas (that can have no fault, pure because they are paramahamsas). In any case, it seems, Prabhupada never had a problem of his leaders becoming regional siksa gurus (which is by far more important then just diksa) and representing His words, I have sent you that email with the letter to NV. So siksa is both more important and at the same time in ISKCON is much easier, if only you put it first (before diksa) and do not separate it from the leadership of ISKCON.[br][br]

The only reason diksa became so strong (top heavy) and prominent (overshadowing both management and siksa) is because of two things, one is that diksa connection was considered the ONLY bona fide direct discipleship (not true, it is hardly the only way and probably least important of the two). The second reason is historical (zonal acharyas - infallible but some failed - burned buffies and disciples without gurus - thus we all want to be diksa disciples (the only bona fide way right) of prabhupada, lets invent a system (that is not an invention), look at this letter - sure TKG letter-pramana, post samadhi ritvik apasampradaya etc). Now Pandu comes and say, I was cheated... what do you do? Of course he cheated himself, but he followed the system and history that made it so easy for him to be cheated or to have this perception.
[br]>now lets see if they were diksa gurus.
[br]

Certainly he did not select acharyas, and he did not limit number or diksa and siksa gurus ISKCON should have. But putting diksa above regular siksa is the basis of the zonal acharya system as opposed to regular gurus system.

Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu in his paper Under my Order in 1985. He writes there" The fact remains , however, that institution of successor acaryas was created when an almost inconceivable degree of misunderstanding of the spiritual master s order was established doctrine in ISKCON. The system of successor acaryas is indeed part and parcel of that misunderstanding".

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu in his paper Under my Order in 1985. He writes there" The fact remains , however, that institution of successor acaryas was created when an almost inconceivable degree of misunderstanding of the spiritual master s order was established doctrine in ISKCON. The system of successor acaryas is indeed part and parcel of that misunderstanding".[/quote] We obviously can not disagree with him, he is an ISKCON diksa guru. The notion of successor acarya is clearly against what Prabhupada ordered. He wanted regular gurus, without all that acharya stuff. BTW the only reason they kicked out Kirtanandanda is because he refused to give up his founder-acarya title. But back to definition of diksa guru - diksa guru IS NOT an acharya.

What happens when individuals naturally worship their siksa or diksa guru as an Archarya....?How is this wrong....ccd?Naturally such faith is sublime in nature.....Our problem at the moment is that the object of such worship needs some better training....in other words, if gurus are able to empower their disciples.Then process is perfect....is it not?

>What happens when individuals naturally worship their siksa or diksa guru as an Archarya....?

You tell me. What is wrong with worshiping Bhavananda Prabhu as an acharya? You know better.

In a letter to Alanatha (November 10, 1975), Srila Prabhupada makes it perfectly clear that he wants all his disciples to become qualified gurus:

"All of our students will have to become Guru, but they are not qualified. This is the difficulty."

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]In a letter to Alanatha (November 10, 1975), Srila Prabhupada makes it perfectly clear that he wants all his disciples to become qualified gurus:[/quote]

Why is this stupid selective quoting?[br]
Here is the paragraph from this letter (taken down by Brahmananda Swami and typed by his..)[br] [br]

"Regarding the controversy that is going on there in Stockholm, what is the reason. This must be considered at a full meeting of the GBC. You may suggest a way to mitigate this difficulty and if it is not accepted, then both of them should resign. I know that Hamsaduta is very expert in selling books but books are not only for selling but also for reading. Now has the GBC become more than Guru Maharaja? As if simply GBC is meant for looking after pounds, shilling, pence. The GBC does not look after spiritual life. That is a defect. All of our students will have to become guru, but they are not qualified. This is the difficulty."[br]

It is very important letter on the need to actually study books (look after spiritual life) - not just doing business of management (as was the case with HS the GBC at that moment in Sweden, as far as we know he was making some politics to move Vegavan).

"All of our students will have to become guru, but they are not qualified. This is the difficulty"

what is that qualification. Is it simple? Probably! Who knows?

Can a Kanistha Guru bestow Diksa?
'a0

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]"All of our students will have to become guru, but they are not qualified. This is the difficulty"

[/quote]Read it again... it does not talk about diksa.

So SP is only referring to siksa-guru disciples that they r not qualified. There were already these siksa. So yes he was referring to diksa guru. Is it not? Thanks.

Can the Kanistha Gurus bestow Diksa?

Thanks.

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]So SP is only referring to siksa-guru disciples that they r not qualified. There were already these siksa. So yes he was referring to diksa guru. Is it not? Thanks.

Thanks.[/quote] Again you are suggesting that diksa qualifications are more then siksa. Again he refers to the fact that they have to read books, become gurus, not mental gurus, practical gurus. He refers that his disciples should become like that, not just reading by also realisation (if you had it you will understand that your question does not make that much sense, since in the framework of diksa (pancaratrica) there is no separation of kanitstha-madhyama-uttama, at that level one just have to be a vaisnava brahmana):

It is not that "If I like, I can go to a guru; if I dont like I can learn the books at home and learn everything." No, that is not possible. Practically... Just like if you purchase some medical book and study at home and if you begin to practice, you will be called a quack. You will not be recognized by the government. You will not get the practitioners registration. You will not. Unless you have passed through the medical college, your medical examination, you will not be accepted, even if you say that "I have read all the books." Similarly, if you simply think that "I have read... As we see generally, "Oh, I have read Bhagavad-gita hundred times." But you ask him what is Krsna, he cannot say. Because he has not approached the acarya. This is the difficulty. He might have read Bhagavad-gita a thousand times, but he will not understand a single word because he has not approached.

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 13.8-12 -- Bombay, October 5, 1973

"not just reading by also realisation (if you had it "

:o)

"Because he has not approached the acarya"

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]"Because he has not approached the acarya"[/quote] Exactly. Nothing about diksa.

ccd-"since in the framework of diksa (pancaratrica) there is no separation of kanitstha-madhyama-uttama, at that level one just have to be a vaisnava brahmana"

So only at that level then!

Bestowal?

Ysvt.

So dharmah svanusthitah pumsam visvaksena-kathasu yah, notpadayed yadi ratim [SB 1.2.8]. This hearing process is very, very important. But people are not interested in hearing. They are simply busy in some other duties. My Guru Maharaja used to say... One who was not interested in hearing, he used to call him a dandavat-class. Dandavat-class of men. That means simply he knows how to make dandavats, thats all. (laughter) Anyone who will come to him, he would see whether he is a dandavat-class of man or hearing class of man. So dandavat is nice, but by offering dandavat, if one does not develop the intent of hearing, sravanam, then he is not making very much progress.

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.2.8 -- Vrndavana, October 19, 19

ccd-"since in the framework of diksa (pancaratrica) there is no separation of kanitstha-madhyama-uttama, at that level one just have to be a vaisnava brahmana"

So only at that level then!

No Bestowal? :o(

Ysvt.

No Bestowal? :o( 0-)
Pancaratra is a serious science - thus the diksa makes to be one of the angas of bhakti. An important anga, but just an anga. Where as gurupadasraya is the first anga. I need some more information (that may not be found at the time) to at least theoretically answer your question. But it seems that we should not equate diksa with ultimate knowledge or it leads to confusion and undue weight on diksa that proved so detrimental.

What is interesting in these discussions is the personalisation of this knowledge into a stoiac ,aggressive and mostly immature attack on each other......i am sorry but this is not genuine brahminical etiquete.The wealth of a sadhu or Vaisnava is his ability to develop empathy....then compassion ,for those lesser than oneself.We should be making friends when we feel that the sadhu is an equal ....and worshiping those Superiors who have developed a sublime nature and qualities of an advanced devotee.Which is not limited to those of us who have stayed around for a long time .....sometimes pretending to be a servant of Krishna....Please accept my humble obeisances....ccd Prabhu and Nrsingha Prabhu...and please be merciful by not taking my uncultured nature as a personal assault .....hare krishna...Vancha kalpa tarubius ca....kripa sindhu bhieva ca patina pavanah.bheyo.Vaisnava namo namaha...

"And for understanding that superior identity we require superior knowledge, not ordinary knowledge. Divya-jnana hrde prakasito. So this is the duty of the guru, to awaken that divya-jnana. Divya-jnana. And because guru enlightens that divya-jnana, he is worshiped. Thank you nrsingha prabhu for the quote!That is required.....So can a kanistha guru awaken realised knowledge within his dependent follower.....interesting question?Personally i have seen foolish devotees who have gone out and distibuted books and then been able to awaken their devotional futures....by the nature of sankirtan and the books of srila Prabhupada.However realised knowledge is generally found within madyama devotees....usually if one accepts a kanistha,it probably would create some form of disturbance within his personal devotional life.....let alone if you are within the association of other devotees.