Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

It can be used in a different context differently. But imitation is often something cheap, like being an superficial external look-alike, whereas emulating is accepting the different base, but performing all the functions that are required from the original.

Imitating is usually what neophyte devotees do.....Without understanding the substance of the teachings....merely a show bottle spiritualism.Emulating is when one has digested the inherent mood along with the sastric application.Which idealy means he has a desire to please the authority,has seen the practical application.....his personal veiw becomes expressed within the context of what he has indeed assimulated is pleasing to guru and krishna.

Is imitation a necessary step in ones spiritual development?

In other words: Is it pointless to try to start out on the path with emulating (however little one can)?

Imitation has nothing to do with spiritual development. Nor is emulation. None is required, but is sometime natural.

Then my understanding of what is going on must be way off ...

Then what is required?

An interesting discussion just a few month before Prabhupada departed:

"Generally I am only reading '93good encouraging news'94 to His Divine Grace, so a letter like yours is not being read at this time, because of Srila Prabhupada'92s poor health and His desire to retire from such types of management considerations. However I felt that your question and the answer to it might be of interest to other devotees and therefore I took the time of His Divine Grace. I asked Srila Prabhupada, '93What is the status of Krishna das Babaji of Mayapur and listening to his kirtan tapes?'94 His Divine Grace answered, '93He is bonafide. There is no harm in listening to him.'94 Then I asked your other question regarding the sahajiya groups of Navadvipa and Mayapur. His Divine Grace replied, '93Why imitate anyone. Sing your own way and Krishna will accept the feelings and the tune.'94 From: the way Srila Prabhupada said this it was clear that this was also in regard to imitating of Krishna das Babaji. Actually Prabhupada wants us to sing with our own feelings and as the tunes are dictated by our feelings, Krishna will accept. However, if someone wants to imitate tunes of such bonafide persons as Krishna das Babaji, there is nothing technically wrong with this. But Prabhupada has made it clear that it is not essential to imitate such persons and that this does not make the kirtan more bonafide.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]Actually Prabhupada wants us to sing with our own feelings and as the tunes are dictated by our feelings, Krishna will accept.[/quote]

I dont understand this at all, and it frustrates me very much.[br]

[br]I suppose that someone who is very advanced can go by his or her own feelings, but I cannot.[br]

[br]Ive read this, though:[br]

[br][quote]Srila Prabhupada: Emotion is not required for scientific knowledge of God. Emotion is not required. Useless. Knowledge of God must be factual. Emotion is of no use. Emotion is useful in highly developed stages of ecstatic love. But it is not that for preliminary scientific study of God you require emotion. No.[br]

[br]Carol: And yet in the bhakti way of doing things, this emotion and love actually are very closely intertwined, aren'92t they?[br]

[br]Srila Prabhupada: Yes, but that is a higher stage. Not in the beginning. In the beginning, devotion means I should be devoted to God very rationally. To start with, why should I be devoted to God unless He is worthy? For instance, Krishna says, '93You surrender unto Me.'94 So unless I understand that Krishna is worthy of my surrendering to Him, why shall I surrender to Krishna? If I had demanded of you, as soon as you arrived here, that you surrender, would you have liked to do that? Unless you are fully aware of my abilities, qualities, why should you surrender?[br]

[br]So before surrendering, one has to study the person to whom he is going to surrender. Then he surrenders. That is real surrender. But blind surrender will not last.[br]

[br]Similarly, blind surrender to God will not last. So since our first business in this human life is to surrender to God, we must know who and what God is. Then you must surrender. And then, when it is based on solid knowledge, your emotion is good. That means you are advanced. If you understand that God is giving us everything, emotion based on that understanding is very good. If, even from the very beginning, one understands and becomes emotional'97'94Oh, God is so kind, God is so great. He is giving us all our necessities, so I must serve Him'94'97then this emotion is very good.[br]

[br]But for the ordinary man, this emotion does not come. He needs to study who God is, what God is. And later, when he fully understands, '93Oh, God is so great,'94 then that emotion is very nice. That is genuine emotion. Otherwise, his surrender to God is merely sentimentality. It will not stay. It will not last. It is temporary.[br]

http://btg.krishna.com/main.php?id=708[/quote]

[br]But how is one to learn who and what God is without trying to emulate (or imitate?) those who say they know God?[br]

From the service to devotees and association with the advanced devotees you gradually develop a taste for the hearing, and from that taste you will be granted an ability to chant. Then you will start to perform your bhajana and gradually you will get purified and some of your anarthas will go, at that time you will experience an increased taste.

Difficulty with emulation (or immitation even more) is that you did not do the intermediate elements, but want to experience the bhakti, there are two kinds of such "devotional service" - chaya and prati-bimba - they are not real. You do not gain anything by imitation, but you gain by hearing. But I understand what you think, first you shaveup, then you put on the dhoti, then you chant your rounds and then you are a devotee.... well actually not.

What got me thinking is that I have been criticized by devotees so much for asking questions and for not "just doing it". Ive gotten the impression that even before going to a nama-hatta or in any way communicating with the devotees, I am just supposed to have this conviction that Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, that hearing and chanting is the right way to go and so on and that I should "just do it". That I am supposed to be inspired, and that if I am not, then there is something wrong with me.

I did my best to "just do it", for over a year, and it felt like banging my head against a wall. It would happen that I sat on the meditation mat, fingers on the beads, unable to chant or move, and so for half an hour.

And as for the clothes and external signs - not me. I would not wear a sari, a tilaka or neck beads unless I would be reasonably sure that I am a decent reperesentative of GV.

What I want is for people to not expect me to do things that cannot be done intentionally.

[quote][cite] Baker:[/cite]What got me thinking is that I have been criticized by devotees so much for asking questions and for not "just doing it".[/quote] Do not worry about it. It is possible that you become a devotee and it is possible that I will become a devotee, we just need to want it very much. Now what is there to want you may ask?

On behalf of the devotees who are telling you to just do it.....Krishna conciousness is not an artifical impoisition.....it is the natural pure nature and inclination of the soul.Because it is a scientific process ....when one goes to mangal arti....at 4.30 am chants 16 rounds of hare krishna....listens to srimad bhagavatam class then serve krishna fully,very religously every day within the association of other devotees.........after one year you will be situated on the devotional platform.Hence by following in the footsteps of the previous spiritual authorities...the mahajanas we will become firmly convinced....when we emulate such great souls we become naturally want to follow in their footsteps.

But being unable to go to mangal arti.....chant 16 rounds and serve especially chanting on the streets and book distribution....we lose faith in the process....Since you cannot even do the simple externals.....neck beads ,sari,tilak....i would bodly venture you do not go on harinam for several hours a day.....you have not participated in a surrendered mood.....you have not been able to conquer the mind....hence cut from a pattern....Due to the huge conditioning we have accumulated over lifetime after lifetime of devotional service....I wanted to share this because i have trained up literally a few hundred devotees and all undere my humble guidance have been able to get to the spiritual platform.....but appearance at mangal arti ...at 4.3o am is the secret...hare krishna Bhaktine baker.

This "hence cut from a pattern" philosophy really disturbs me. This is how devotees are burned out. It reminds me of the Radha Damodara TSP - only devotees who actually spent time reading Prabhupadas books stayed in the movement, all others ...

Yes you are right....Prabhu..Everyone should read the philosophy,but more important when you are a young devotee is your genuine surrender,Symptomised by going to mangal arti.Chanting 16 rounds.....of hare krishna....Radha and her servants are the judges of wether you are allowed to serve krishna. ..You are telling me...after one year of performing full time devotional or even part-time service you are afraid of sari,tulsi beads....?sorry. But you are not following the process properly.
Obviously my concern is the inherent lack of surrender.......is seen as a problem with the actual process .....by others..However under a qualified devotees guidance like yourself everything should successfully proceed..hare krishna..Your mention of Radha damodhara is interesting because without the necessary sincerity .....you did not last as you say.But they were for a long time ahuge preaching force in america....with hundreds of devotees ,thousands of books and huge laxmi created for srila Prabhupadas movement.Simply due to sincerity and a hunger to please your authority....and srila Prabhupada.

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]But you are not following the process properly.[/quote]

I have never said I did.[br]

[br]My point is that there seems to be a number of things that one must do long before one can even attempt to follow the process properly.[br]

[br]I am interested in finding out what those things are.[br]

[br]So far, I have gotten the impression that "those things" are something a person either has or doesnt have, but it is impossible to develop or acquire them.

>So far, I have gotten the impression that "those things" are something a person either has or doesnt have, but it is impossible to develop or acquire them.

If you inquire about them you get them by the mercy of devotees who actually have them.

Every path starts with a first step. Offer a flower, water, incense to the Deity. Try to please devotees by serving them. Read SPs books regularly.

How do I overcome the feeling of absurdity that arises in me when I do that?

Take a flying leap ---- of faith. What have you got to lose? We are in a diseased condition having forgotten our true identity so just like a diseased person with jaundice -- to him/her the taste of sugar seems bitter. As one becomes healthy again the sugar tastes sweet as it should.
Keeping with the same theme of being fallen conditioned souls in a diseased (unnatural) situation --- the enjoyment and pleasures we perceive in this world are like nectar in the beginning but they always turn to poison whereas the happiness and bliss found in Krishna consciousness seems like poison in the beginning but turns to nectar as we advance through faith and realization. We say that it is a scientific process because if one follows the procedures and makes sure to stick to the formula, not forgetting any of the essential ingredients, the end result is guaranteed. Thats a bold claim but if one actually makes the experiment they get firsthand experience of the truth in it.

I may add that the faith that is required doesnt necessarily mean blind faith. In Bhagavad Gita Krishna tells Arjuna, "Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire submissively from him and render service unto him. The self realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth." So ask questions and use your intelligence but not in a cynical challenging mood.

What is absurd? Deity worship? We offer things to other persons all the time. Among all the persons the Supreme Person is the Lord.

Veda -- we who have made the conscious decision to surrender and fully accept these teachings -- the Vedas -- our gurus and the sadhus in our line -- sometimes take it for granted that everyone else should also have the same catharsis and perceive how wonderful, natural, symmetrical, complete this philosophy of bhakti yoga, Krishna consciousness is. When I first joined Srila Prabhupadas ISKCON movement I was quite young -- in my teens -- and I was very excited, enthusiastic and perhaps a tad overzealous. I thought that all a person had to do was read or hear just a little bit -- have a tiny explosure to what I was convinced was indeed the absolute truth -- that they too would get on board the train headed back to home,back to Godhead. Little by little I began to realize the obstacles that blocked almost all others from easily perceiving what I saw right away. For instance -- back in the late 60s it wasnt easy telling people about the Bhagavad-gita and how Arjuna decided not to fight but God -- Krishna -- told him to pick up his weapons and kill. I mean -- the peace movement was in full swing -- protesting the Vietnam war and the rally cry of the entire generation was "Give Peace a Chance." That was just one example. Deity worship -- shaved heads -- strict regulative principles of austerity and abstinence --- these things seemed very unnatural to just about everyone. I realized right away that I was inconnceivably fortunate to be one of the very few (manusyanam sahasresu ....) for whom these teachings struck a chord so deep inside me that it wasnt a question of my wanting to join the mission -- I HAD to become a disciple of Srila Prabhupada. I thought for sure all or most of my friends would follow me into the movement. None did. No -- actually one did. I thought that all the poets, writers, spiritualists, musicians who I respected, admired and revered before joining -- that they would all eventually find their way to the temples. Maybe one or two here and there -- but for the most part --- they didnt. So my point here is that what seems perfectly natural to us might appear absurd to someone who hasnt taken that leap of faith -- who still hasnt let go of and who is still hovering on the mental platform. In this Kali Yuga for somebody even to be curious or inquisitive and have somewhat of an open heart and mind -- is a rare thing.

[quote][cite] portnoy:[/cite]Take a flying leap ---- of faith.
[br]/.../[br]
I may add that the faith that is required doesnt necessarily mean blind faith. In Bhagavad Gita Krishna tells Arjuna, "Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire submissively from him and render service unto him. The self realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth." So ask questions and use your intelligence but not in a cynical challenging mood.[/quote]

I dont mean to be difficult, I apologize if I come across that way.[br]

[br]It is just that all this is so strange to me. The first strangest thing I have ever heard was the sentence "God is always happy", and the second the notion that people are driven by desire and that they relate to God according to their desire, their choice.[br]

[br]My first reaction is to equate desire with fantasy; ie. desire is something that is not real, doesnt really exist.[br]
[br]In my life, I do not recall that it would ever matter what I wanted or didnt want. The only thing that really mattered was to make the right choice, the objective choice. Not that I was ever sure I knew what that was, but the objective, the right was always the ideal.[br]

[br]I suppose I am speaking like a determinist impersonalist. And yes, I have studied up on determinism, impersonalism, arguments for and against them. As much as I find consequent determinism and impersonalism repugnant, my considering them repugnant doesnt seem to change anything.[br]

My dear Bhaktine baker ,Since you have not seriously approached and been involved in krishna conciousness.Apart from a year ....where you felt ...........I did my best to "just do it", for over a year, and it felt like banging my head against a wall. It would happen that I sat on the meditation mat, fingers on the beads, unable to chant or move, and so for half an hour....I would suggest you serve by ....chanting 16 rounds and taking prasadam at your local temple and go to mangal arti....at 4.30 am.....when you can.How do you deal with absurd feelings.....use your god given intelligence....which is being given to you by Veda and ccd in the form of their wonderful advice.But eventually one must smash the mind by chanting hare krishna....calling out to god for the ability to serve him,though you are weak and disqualified.But chant 16 rounds of hare krishna ...to start with!...Ask questions but fight your enemy your mind who does not want you to chant ....Hare krishna hare krishna krishna krishna hare hare,hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare....just do it....get out of our mode of ignorance stance.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]What is absurd? Deity worship? We offer things to other persons all the time. Among all the persons the Supreme Person is the Lord.[/quote]

I cant help it, it feels absurd to me. Not that the devotees do those things, but that I try to do them. I am not sure everyone had so much trouble as I am having, it seems they didnt but that it all came naturally to them somehow.

Baker -- please ignore the advice to "smash your mind." If you do that you will end up mindless like the person who gave you such unauthorized idiotic advice. Our philosophy is not to smash anything. Srila Prabhupada told us to just add Krishna and we will know what is real happiness. Everything in the material world is zero .. so many zeros ... but if you put a one in front of all those zeros you have a great number. That One is Krishna. We dont become desire-less -- we desire for Krishna. We dont become ego-less -- we identify with our eternal spiritual link with the Supreme. We dont become mindless -- we purfiy the mind and fill it with wonderful thoughts about Krishna. We dont deny our senses -- we engage them all in Krishna consciousness. We are personalists. We are not smashers of anything. This person likes to talk in terms of ripping and tearing and smashing and he is very judgmental. I can tell you that he is not representing our Sampradaya Acarya His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada. He is just showing off -- thats all. Its a shame that he insists on spending so many hours at this site spouting his nonsense. He needs to be quiet for some time but he wont take my good advice. Please ignore all his posts because if you dont you will only become discouraged. He does not speak for anyone but himself. Hes a puffed up upstart with a big mouth and Im trying to get him to hush up but it seems an impossible task.

I think Sri Govinda Das has a point, though.

It appears that what underlies the position I am coming from is this: "First study and understand everything analytically". A kind of approach people used long time ago when the planet was clean, life was nice and people were intelligent.

Whereas for the modern age, a different method is prescribed, namely the chanting of the Maha mantra. Now that the planet is made foul, life is hard and people are rather stupid.

It does seem that Sri Govinda Das has a somewhat anti-intellectualistic approach, which can be very frustrating for some. I suppose devotees can differ quite a bit in their assessment of what is "too mental" or "too much philosophizing".

[quote][cite] portnoy:[/cite]I can tell you that he is not representing our Sampradaya Acarya His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada. He is just showing off -- thats all. Its a shame that he insists on spending so many hours at this site spouting his nonsense. He needs to be quiet for some time but he wont take my good advice. Please ignore all his posts because if you dont you will only become discouraged. He does not speak for anyone but himself. Hes a puffed up upstart with a big mouth and Im trying to get him to hush up but it seems an impossible task.[/quote]

Well, if you speak like that, it is your word against his.[br]

[br]
[br]

[img]http://www.krishnabalarama.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/krishna-gokula.jpg[/img]

Too-mental or too much philosophizing is when it stops you,from being enthusiastic to serve sri chaitanya mahaprabhus sankirtan movement.....It gets in the way.
Everyone has personal moods and flavours of serving....wether it is to please krishna ?or our aim is to please the non-devotees....the demons..!
When you have a mundane job.Can you serve badly in an ordinary job......so your superiors are unhappy?No ...very soon you will be shown the door!.....Also when we come to krishna.....
He and his authorities,the temple president...and senior devotees ,some hopefully will become your best freinds and siksa gurus...... are his representatives.
They are your greatest wealth when they are happy with your service attitude and devotional attributes.Ideally we should dovetail our unique propensities to be mental or too philosophizing ....like reading more....then convincing ones mind to serve...with sastra and common sense. Accepting every obstacle....as favourable....in a favourable light, as a welcome incentive to serve in a more dynamic manner.Be personal and funny ...loving and happy ,think of ways to clean the temple.....while chanting the Brahma-samhita....like my children do....all because they have surrendered ...to please krishna and his servants.
How do i stay enthused, when i do the same service everyday?By being spiritually creative and dovetailing my conditioned nature..It is a spiritual challenge ...hence only the most intelligent stay serving krishna...at least that is my humble experience.....hare krishna.

>> We offer things to other persons all the time. Among all the persons the Supreme Person is the Lord.

> I cant help it, it feels absurd to me. Not that the devotees do those things, but that I try to do them.

You never offer things to other persons? I dont think you live in a vacuum with no family, no friends, etc.

This story is pertinent: http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/bhaktiyoga/change.htm#8

In a sense, I do offer things to people, and I do have social exchanges. But they dont seem to care either way.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]This "hence cut from a pattern" philosophy really disturbs me. [/quote]

Its a self-fulfilling prophecy. It tends to make people self-conscious and give them an intense guilt trip, but it doesnt move them to take action.

Baker, just be yourself - you do not have to imitate, and you dont have to emulate anybody.
Find your own way to be Krsna conscious.
There are all kinds of various ways to be a Krsna bhakta. Be honest with yourself and be sincere in your prayers to Krsna. Eventually it will all settle in your mind and you will be at peace with yourself. At that time no amount of guilt-trip pseudo-preaching by certain devotees will bother you.

Yes, "cut from a pattern" gult tripping and "emulating acharyas" is not required. If you have a doubt, just express it, but nicely. Bhakti only comes from the heart of bhaktas, that is why we try to associate with devotees more, devotees who chant nicely.

But I have so many doubts! It seems so hopeless. Its also fundamental doubts, like whether Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead or whether it is Jehowah, or whether there is any God at all. I dont know of a nice way to express such doubts.

What can be a better way then Pariprashnena!? I guess you will keep us busy...

[quote][cite] Baker:[/cite]But I have so many doubts! It seems so hopeless. Its also fundamental doubts, like whether Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead or whether it is Jehowah, or whether there is any God at all. I dont know of a nice way to express such doubts.[/quote]

That is hardly surprising. CCD is right - this is a proper place to express such doubts. Ultimately however, such doubts are resolved on the level of your own heart: we chose the way we want to see the world based on our heart and our taste. We can give you some information or advice but ultimately only you can resolve your doubts. --------------- It is never hopeless. God cares about you, and so do his true servants. Have some faith and be patient.

Id rather be an asset than a liability, but its not easy to become an asset. Being someones object of compassion doesnt make for good communication either.
It is so shameful to be spiritually retarded!

Thank you for your help. I hope I will soon not need it anymore.

Actually you sincerity is your asset, It is also our asset. We all have doubts and anarthas. They are not gone just because one went through the bhakta program. Self-righteousness on the other hand is a real trouble of the show-bottle devotees. It takes courage to express doubts. For serious doubts it takes greater courage. But bhakti is stronger then doubts or any other anarthas.

[quote][cite] Baker:[/cite]Id rather be an asset than a liability, but its not easy to become an asset. Being someones object of compassion doesnt make for good communication either.
It is so shameful to be spiritually retarded!
Thank you for your help. I hope I will soon not need it anymore.[/quote]

It is a real pleasure for a devotee to be able to actually help others. Serving others is pleasant on a very deep level. I also enjoy when someone helps me. Life is about giving and receiving and both can be very pleasant. --------- Spiritual retardation is when your material pride blinds you to the reality of life - in that state you are unable to learn and unable to perceive the real joy of serving others. You think you are already right about everything. ----------------

As long as you are learning, changing and evolving, you know you are doing something right.

Whats the difference between emitate and imulate?
Whats the difference beetween mimic and parrot? Surrender and submit? Prema and Bhava? Spirit and Soul? Sky and Ether? Egotistical or Conceited? Learned or Wise? Diplomacy or Tact? Highrise or Skyscraper? Ashram or Temple? Deity or Idol? Intelligence or Knowledge?

Try saying this three times quickly:

Action in inaction and inaction in action.

Tomorrow is Thanksgiving. Be thankful ... or not.

If they dont seem to care either way you should try to find and associate with those who do. Kula pavana P. speaks my words above. Afa doubts, the above linked story is the key how to remove them.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]If they dont seem to care either way you should try to find and associate with those who do.[/quote]

Sure, but it appears it will take me a lot of time and effort (also material effort) to do that. Perhaps I wont qualify for such associacion in this lifetime at all. So it seems prudent to me to find a way to get by in life without such associacion.[br]

[br][quote]Afa doubts, the above linked story is the key how to remove them.[/quote]

I find that strange. If God exists, and the deities are His representatives visible to the run-of-the-mill human, will He (or His human-bodied representatives) not be offended or otherwise hold it against the person who would approach Him with doubts about His existence and nature?[br]

[br]And conversely, if one has doubts whether something is directly related to God (such as deities, chanting the holy names, studying scriptures), then what point is there in doing deity worship, chanting or studying? In my experience, doing (or at least trying to do) those things only sharpens the doubts and makes my frustration worse.[br]

[br]I have gotten the impression that the devotees were first fully convinced of the validity of process, and only then took it up. And that this full conviction is what I lack.[br]

[br]EDIT: I realize I have brought this up in another thread, and you and others replied. It is just really difficult for me to understand. The notion that one can be imperfect or have imperfect faith but do some religious practice anyway is completely foreign to me. Where I come from, this is called hypocrisy and pretense, and as such, it is better not to do it at all.

Nothing can be achieved without effort.

No, He wont be offended. He gives the spiritual intelligence to those who desire to have it and prove it by their actively favorable attitude.

> In my experience, doing (or at least trying to do) those things only sharpens the doubts and makes my frustration worse.

Thatd require elaboration. Bhakti yoga removes doubts.

> I have gotten the impression that the devotees were first fully convinced of the validity of process, and only then took it up. And that this full conviction is what I lack.

No one can have a full conviction at the beginning but needs enough sraddha to begin. This sraddha comes from ajnata sukriti (already mentioned). Our experience in this world is analogical: no one can understand a dish without eating, a book without reading, a song without listening, etc.

This seems like an answer to you: http://swami.org/pages/sanga/current.php

>And conversely, if one has doubts whether something is directly related to God (such as deities, chanting the holy names, studying scriptures), then what point is there in doing deity worship, chanting or studying?

syuc0u257 t kru803 su803 nu803 a-nu257 ma-caritu257 di-situ257 py avidyu257 -
pittopatapta-rasanasya na rociku257 nu
kintv u257 daru257 d anudinau109 u769 khalu saiva jusu803 tu803 u257
svu257 dvu299 kramu257 d bhavati tad-gada-mu363 la-hantru299

TRANSLATION

The holy name, character, pastimes and activities of Kru803 su803 nu803 a are all transcendentally sweet like sugar candy. Although the tongue of one afflicted by the jaundice of avidyu257 [ignorance] cannot taste anything sweet, it is wonderful that simply by carefully chanting these sweet names every day, a natural relish awakens within his tongue, and his disease is gradually destroyed at the root.

One need to keep chanting whether doubts are there or not because this is the recommended process and be patient, gradually everything will happen. Rupa goswami is saying a natural relish will awaken, so one need to trust and put some time and effort in following his instructions. People spend one third of their life (around 25 years) going to different colleges and universities just to become a clerk in some office. ISKCON is asking only 2 hours a day for chanting 16 rounds. Just think 25 years to become a clerk and 2 hours a day to become a devotee, the topmost transcendentalist. Even if one is not 100% confident, it wont hurt to spend an hour or two practicing the chanting of holy names.

>Where I come from, this is called hypocrisy and pretense, and as such, it is better not to do it at all.

Another trap of Maya devi to keep you away from the chanting of holy name. Please dont cling to these ideas of where you come from, they wont be helpful in your spiritual journey, imho, it will be better if you just drop them.

>And that this full conviction is what I lack.

Full conviction is not needed, courage is needed. Collect all your courage and take a jump into Krsna Consciousness. Full conviction can come later.

The intention is what matters. The intention is to be free from pretense, so chant with that purpose. Do not be a show bottle devotee.

My dear bhaktine baker ,so happy to see you and i....... finally have something in common.Krishna has been merciful to us both....we are indeed retarded because of our inability to personally approach sri krishna with sincerity.Actually i would suggest you read the teachings of queen kunti.She is a wonderful example of feminine courage and tolerance exhibited when all those around her, wanted her family the Pandavas dead.
I remember when i first came to the temple,i had nothing in common with the devotees.They seemed so........ well sterile,boring ,lacking in every department.Infact until i met the temple president,who seemed genuine i was intending to get the hell out of there!....luckily for me , sri chaitanya mahaprabhu had his plan which was for me to stay for a while.

Being a show bottle devotee naturally...i have recently been promoted to a sycophant according to my new wife....to be ....,.Which when i googled it....means.... a servile person who, acting in his or her own self-interest, attempts to win favor by flattering one or more influential persons, or by saying lies against a fellow citizen for gaining a kind of profit.
However we are meant to be placing krishna in the centre of our lives....so chant and read the wonderful mahabharat.See the actual context of the bhagavad gita....which is what Madva Archarya preached.....especially for the high class retarded....the sudras ,women ,vaishas,ksatriyas...and especially the insincere sycophants....like me.Hare krishna.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]
> In my experience, doing (or at least trying to do) those things only sharpens the doubts and makes my frustration worse.

Thatd require elaboration. Bhakti yoga removes doubts.[/quote]

As I have been noticing just as we speak, a lot depends on the people I talk to about something.[br]
[br]I know some devotees who would have mauled me for the things I say and ask here. And others who would otherwise be unfavorably inclined toward me.[br]

[br]I easily become overwhelmed by other people. This has always been a problem for me. With some devotees, I have felt so threatened that I even began to assume being an atheist, becoming defensive and cynical, in an attempt to protect myself somehow. Of course, if one behaves that way for long enough, it becomes hard to tell what it is that one really stands for.[br]

[br][quote]This seems like an answer to you: http://swami.org/pages/sanga/current.php[/quote]

(Leaving aside that this is siksa by a non-ISKCON guru...)[br]

[br]Im not sure what you had in mind when you suggested this?[br]

[br]Is this a part you thought of import -[br]

[br][i]Overall, I would recommend that one be faithful to the experience of Sri Caitanya and to his theology espoused by the Goswamis. However, as the subject is transcendental, there is room for nuanced understandings relative to ones spiritual advancement to the extent that they foster devotion. The important point to remember is that the materially conditioned mind cannot force its way into Krsna lila, rather through bhakti the mind of the practitioner becomes purified, and then and only then will Krsna lila reveal itself to the devotee. When the lila reveals itself, the experience will undoubtedly transcend all your previous conceptions.[/i][br]

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]The intention is what matters. The intention is to be free from pretense, so chant with that purpose. Do not be a show bottle devotee.[/quote]

Ive just found this:[br]

[br][quote]The consequences of faking it:[br]

[br]Ive just caught a short video by the brilliant behavioural economist Dan Ariely who explains the surprising effect of wearing fake goods on the likelihood of us cheating and for on much we suspect that others are being dishonest.[br]

[br]Ariely is riffing on one of his recent studies that was led by psychologist Francesca Gino. Itll shortly appear in Psychological Science but can read the full text online as a pdf.[br]

[br]The study involved asking people to wear real or fake designer sunglasses, when in reality they were all the genuine article. Interestingly, those wearing the supposedly fake shades behaved less honestly in subsequent tests and were more likely to suspect others of behaving unethically.[br]

[br]Ariely gives a brilliant account of the study but theres an interesting aspect in the full paper which he doesnt touch on so much. In the final experiment of the study, the researchers found that it was a change in attitude that seemed to drive the change in honesty.[br]

[br]Wearing the fake sunglasses seemed to increase personal feelings of being inauthentic and these feeling of the counterfeit self were most associated with changes in behaviour.[br]

[br]Participants who believed they were wearing imitation goods were more likely to agree with the sentiments "Right now, I dont know how I really feel inside" and "Right now, I feel alienated from myself" and were more like to say that they felt "out of touch with the '91real me'92" and felt as if "I don'92t know myself very well".[br]

[br]The study suggests that fake goods change how we perceive ourselves and this relaxes our boundaries of acceptable behaviour.[br]

[br]The video is short and brilliantly explained and the study is fascinating.[br]

http://www.mindhacks.com/blog/2009/11/the_consequences_of_.html[/quote]

[br]Applied to religion, this could mean that a person who thinks that she is practicing a fake religion (even is the religion is not fake), will more likely have feelings of self-doubt and insecurity, and will be more likely to cheat and to suspect others of cheating.[br]

[br]I am presuming that the extent to which a person lacks conviction that the religion they are practicing is true/right/good is proportional to their conviction that the religion they are practicing is fake.
[br]I am presuming one cannot be, for example, 30% sure that a religion is true/right/good, and 70% neutral, but that the remaining 70% are a conviction that ones religion is fake.[br]

[br]Im bringing this up because I am much concerned over issues of true/fake religion (hence also issues of imitation and emulation), and how not being certain whether I am practicing a true or fake religion works out in my life.[br]

> As I have been noticing just as we speak, a lot depends on the people I talk to about something.

So you dont speak about bhaktiyoga but about devotees. You feel that some threaten you and therefore you cant do any seva. Yes? Therefore I keep suggesting you should find a proper devotee association and do some practical seva.

> (Leaving aside that this is siksa by a non-ISKCON guru...)

The answer is of a general nature, unrelated to any specific organization.

> Im not sure what you had in mind when you suggested this?

This: "The important point to remember is that the materially conditioned mind cannot force its way into Krsna lila, rather through bhakti the mind of the practitioner becomes purified, and then and only then will Krsna lila reveal itself to the devotee. When the lila reveals itself, the experience will undoubtedly transcend all your previous conceptions."

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]So you dont speak about bhaktiyoga but about devotees.[/quote]

Like I said, it is only recently that this distinction occured to me. I havent really been aware of it. To me, religion has always been about other people somehow.[br]

[br][quote]You feel that some threaten you and therefore you cant do any seva. Yes?[/quote]

This sounds awful spelled out like this! But I suppose so, yes. A while back, it came so far that I started to seriously consider taking some painkiller medications before going to the nama-hatta, and as I started calculating at what time to take them for the best effect (they make me cheerfully numb), I decided it was probably best not to go to the meeting at all.[br]

[br][quote]Therefore I keep suggesting you should find a proper devotee association and do some practical seva.[/quote]

I know you have been suggesting this, and I dont want to be a pain. Its just that it is currently not materially possible for me to go to some other group of devotees. I am also afraid that both groups would see me as a traitor or unduly choosy, and would then both reject me.[br]

[br][quote]This: "The important point to remember is that the materially conditioned mind cannot force its way into Krsna lila, rather through bhakti the mind of the practitioner becomes purified, and then and only then will Krsna lila reveal itself to the devotee. When the lila reveals itself, the experience will undoubtedly transcend all your previous conceptions."[/quote]

Allright, it appears I was able to pick up what you intended.[br]

Yes, but therere various levels of devotees and sanga.

I have no idea whats going on in your NH group. What you describe sounds strange. Seems like you should talk to the NH leader about what can be done. But your mind shouldnt keep you away from seva regardless of conditions.

I once started to talk about it to a senior mataji, but she said it was "all in my mind" ...

In a way, its good that I am having all these troubles, because now I at least am forced to look into some apparently fundamental issues which I am sure I would have skipped if I felt more welcomed by the devotees.

Yeah. You should talk to Narayani Mataji (VIHE) -- she is good at philosophy like that.

"all in my mind" can be understood in various ways depending on a context. A solipsist considers the external world to be a product of ones mind. This is originally found in Yogacara Buddhism. In your case the mataji probably meant that your doubts and reasoning are in your mind. Technically speaking, doubts come from intelligence. (SB 3.26.30) However, in ISKCON devotees usually call someone who gives too much importance to ones thoughts and doubts mental, manoratha. "I cant do this service because..."

This is also pertinent: http://www.krishna.com/en/node/2306

Yes my freind Veda prabhu you are right.Krishna will come to us when we approach him genuinely.Without these crooked hearts,which have assimulated so much rubbish over literally an eternalty,we could infact keep krishna conciousness simple.Then it is very simple!
But most female devotees,especially the single ones i meet in our temples have been through many bad experiences....by the time they come to krishnas lotus feet .......it is such a struggle to preach to them because they are indeed callous,envious,puffed up and appearing to be wide awake .....when they are unwilling to just do what they are told....as a result they are intent on sleeping while awake!
They are unused to the fact that they are truly unable to appreciate krishna because they come from demoniac backgrounds.They do not have brahminical training,have infact been eating meat til recently ....so they have no cultured brains or intelligence to understand this science with!
It is the greatest science bhaktine baker....as you ,your mind,your heart are infact involved in the very experiment.But the chanting is meant to transform your senses to be able to perceive krishna within the chanting when you simply dance in kirtan.When you just force your mind to accept food offered to krishna in love only.....only attempt to talk about krishna and get up early and go to mangal arti....as i did this morning.
However one must have faith in the older devotees., since we are in a position of bewilderment....since our own mind is the enemy .....and we lack pure intelligence....our only hope is the chanting of 16 rounds of hare krishna and the senior association of devotees....and guru. good luck bhaktine baker....

> However, in ISKCON devotees usually call someone who gives too much importance to ones thoughts and doubts mental, manoratha. "I cant do this service because..."

A form of ignorance? Instead of preaching to new comers we call them mental and then praise ourselves... great attitude... Being very fallen I would never call someones doubts mental, or "in your mind only". You need to talk to devotees who actually care for your well being, not those who supposed to care. Not those who consider you "callous,envious,puffed up and appearing to be wide awake" -- you must chose your association to survive.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]> However, in ISKCON devotees usually call someone who gives too much importance to ones thoughts and doubts mental, manoratha. "I cant do this service because..."

[br]A form of ignorance? Instead of preaching to new comers we call them mental and then praise ourselves... great attitude... Being very fallen I would never call someones doubts mental, or "in your mind only". You need to talk to devotees who actually care for your well being, not those who supposed to care. Not those who consider you "callous,envious,puffed up and appearing to be wide awake" -- you must chose your association to survive.[/quote]

Personally, I think it is a low blow to use any kind of doctrinal/scriptural argument against someone in a personal conflict or confrontation.[br]
[br]It is an obvious act of assuming that the scriptures, and God, are on ones own side, but not on the other persons.[br]
[br]Nobody can defend themselves against a doctrinal/scriptural argument.[br]

[br]There is even a word for people who use such arguments in a personal conflict or confrontation - "new age bullies" (http://www.juliaingram.com/Common_Ground.html).[br]

[br]Although I am a bit used to this, it still gets to me sometimes, and I am not sure how it all ties in with Vaisnavism and respect for other devotees, especially seniors.[br]

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]"all in my mind" can be understood in various ways depending on a context. A solipsist considers the external world to be a product of ones mind. This is originally found in Yogacara Buddhism. In your case the mataji probably meant that your doubts and reasoning are in your mind. Technically speaking, doubts come from intelligence. (SB 3.26.30) However, in ISKCON devotees usually call someone who gives too much importance to ones thoughts and doubts mental, manoratha.
"I cant do this service because..."[/quote]

I have never actually said though that I cant do a service because of my philosophical doubts. I have never had the feeling that I am welcome there. I did get the feeling that I am less than a number, that I am redundant. This was because others have interpreted my actions, imputed intentions on me that I did not have, nor was there any opportunity to talk about it. "You did such and such because of such and such, and this is all there is to it." Its a small group, but I have been left out for prasadam twice. Things have been offered and promised to me, but not delivered. Barely anyone talks to me; unless I start a conversation, probably nobody will talk to me. Once I asked if I could help cleaning up the altar afterwards, and was first told I could, but then I apparently did something wrong and was frowned at, but given no instruction as to what I did wrong. A senior devotee yelled at me and hit down with a chair in front of me. Once in kirtan, the leader announced we would alternate in singing the lead, and I asked whether it was allright that I sing lead too, since I am so new - I think my asking this kind of shows how well I feel there ...

[br]But I am used to such things. I went to Catholic church. Its just that bhakti yoga seems to be a lot more serious and demand a lot more engagement than Christianity, so the relative indifference and despondance necessary to survive in a Catholic church seem to be more an obstacle than a help.

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]
But most female devotees,especially the single ones i meet in our temples have been through many bad experiences....by the time they come to krishnas lotus feet .......it is such a struggle to preach to them because they are indeed callous,envious,puffed up and appearing to be wide awake .....when they are unwilling to just do what they are told....as a result they are intent on sleeping while awake![/quote]

Perhaps some of these females are afraid that they are once more going to be taken advantage of, as they have been many times before. So in an effort to protect themselves somehow, they appear aloof.[br]
[br]With all the scandals going on in ISKCON and in the world at large, that fear can hardly be considered unjustified.[br]

[br][quote]They are unused to the fact that they are truly unable to appreciate krishna because they come from demoniac backgrounds.They do not have brahminical training,have infact been eating meat til recently ....so they have no cultured brains or intelligence to understand this science with!
It is the greatest science bhaktine baker....as you ,your mind,your heart are infact involved in the very experiment.But the chanting is meant to transform your senses to be able to perceive krishna within the chanting when you simply dance in kirtan.When you just force your mind to accept food offered to krishna in love only.....only attempt to talk about krishna and get up early and go to mangal arti....as i did this morning.
However one must have faith in the older devotees., since we are in a position of bewilderment....since our own mind is the enemy .....and we lack pure intelligence....our only hope is the chanting of 16 rounds of hare krishna and the senior association of devotees....and guru. good luck bhaktine baker....[/quote]

When you talk to me like that, do you really think I feel like confiding in you?[br]

[quote][cite] Baker:[/cite]

[br]Although I am a bit used to this, it still gets to me sometimes, and I am not sure how it all ties in with Vaisnavism and respect for other devotees, especially seniors.[br][/quote] Sudras respect seniors by age, vaisyas by the bank balance, among ksatriyas, the more noble you are the more senior (it is still the rule in monarchies around the world), among brahmanas the more learned you are the more respect you get, among kanistha vaisnavas the time of your diksa is the criteria for seniority, among madhyama vaisnavas the criteria is how many souls have you saved from maya, among uttama vaisnavas there is no question of seniority, for they honestly strive to be servants of others and only see seniority by the criteria of lila in the spiritual realm.

> Nobody can defend themselves against a doctrinal/scriptural argument.

Only with a better scriptural argument.

> There is even a word for people who use such arguments in a personal conflict or confrontation - "new age bullies" (http://www.juliaingram.com/Common_Ground.html).

New Age is typical for antisastric attitude. Their motto is anything goes.
Karma is only the first part of the problem. The reaction of the victim and others around is the second one. It should be based on dharma. New Agers usually dont take this into consideration.

> This was because others have interpreted my actions, imputed intentions on me that I did not have, nor was there any opportunity to talk about it.

Unless this lack of communication is overcome, things can hardly get better.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote][cite] Baker:[/cite]

[br]Although I am a bit used to this, it still gets to me sometimes, and I am not sure how it all ties in with Vaisnavism and respect for other devotees, especially seniors.[br][/quote] Sudras respect seniors by age, vaisyas by the bank balance, among ksatriyas, the more noble you are the more senior (it is still the rule in monarchies around the world), among brahmanas the more learned you are the more respect you get, among kanistha vaisnavas the time of your diksa is the criteria for seniority, among madhyama vaisnavas the criteria is how many souls have you saved from maya, among uttama vaisnavas there is no question of seniority, for they honestly strive to be servants of others and only see seniority by the criteria of lila in the spiritual realm.[/quote]

Im not sure how to understand/apply this?[br]

[br]Am I supposed to assume I am of a particular varna and ashrama, and then behave accordingly?[br]

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]> Nobody can defend themselves against a doctrinal/scriptural argument.

Only with a better scriptural argument.[/quote]

! Youd actually advise that?![br]
[br]I tend to think that someone who uses scriptural arguments in a personal conflict or confrontation would not accept a counterargument anyway. There are also issues of seniority. For example, I was in a conflict once with a senior mataji, a she used what I thought was an incorrect scriptural argument against me. I didnt fight back or correct her.[br]

[br]In Buddhism, there is the Water-snake Simile, in MN 22, the first part says:[br]

[br][i]Monks, there is the case where some worthless men study the Dhamma: dialogues, narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question & answer sessions [the earliest classifications of the Buddhas teachings]. Having studied the Dhamma, they dont ascertain the meaning (or: the purpose) of those Dhammas 5 with their discernment. Not having ascertained the meaning of those Dhammas with their discernment, they dont come to an agreement through pondering. [b]They study the Dhamma both for attacking others and for defending themselves in debate.[/b] They dont reach the goal for which [people] study the Dhamma. Their wrong grasp of those Dhammas will lead to their long-term harm & suffering. Why is that? Because of the wrong-graspedness of the Dhammas.[/i][br]
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.022.than.html[br]

[br]I tend to think that anytime I would use a scriptural argument for attacking others or defending myself in debate, this would be an abuse of the scriptural argument.[br]

[br]What do you think?[br]

[br][quote]New Age is typical for antisastric attitude. Their motto is anything goes.
Karma is only the first part of the problem. The reaction of the victim and others around is the second one. It should be based on dharma. New Agers usually dont take this into consideration.[/quote]

My point was that some people (especially New Agers), will readily and carelessly use heavy arguments against people, regardless of circumstance, and especially when the other person is experiencing a difficulty.[br]

[br][quote]Unless this lack of communication is overcome, things can hardly get better.[/quote]

Well, its their group, they have the say.

[quote][cite] Baker:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote][cite] Baker:[/cite]

[br]Although I am a bit used to this, it still gets to me sometimes, and I am not sure how it all ties in with Vaisnavism and respect for other devotees, especially seniors.[br][/quote] Sudras respect seniors by age, vaisyas by the bank balance, among ksatriyas, the more noble you are the more senior (it is still the rule in monarchies around the world), among brahmanas the more learned you are the more respect you get, among kanistha vaisnavas the time of your diksa is the criteria for seniority, among madhyama vaisnavas the criteria is how many souls have you saved from maya, among uttama vaisnavas there is no question of seniority, for they honestly strive to be servants of others and only see seniority by the criteria of lila in the spiritual realm.[/quote]

Im not sure how to understand/apply this?[br]

[br]Am I supposed to assume I am of a particular varna and ashrama, and then behave accordingly?[br][/quote] No you should strive to be of a higher qualification in better association in a proper way.[br] In a way, historically, it used to be gurus first business to determent adhikara of the disciple (varna or for a vaisnava his position). So if you have to give respect to vaisnavas give it according to the fruits they produce (as madhyamas), not according to the age (sudras). You should respect seniors, but you should form association with like-minded devotees in the first place.[br] And only then you can resolve the problem of scriptural interpretation vs dogmatic acceptance, because scriptures are never alone, they are always given by acharyas and presented by sadhus, thus you should have an environment where you can actually receive the scripture, it is not that anyone can just tell you this is what sastra states, the attitude of service, submission and prayer is as important as the words of the scriptures, if not more important. [br]That is one of the reasons Prabhupada used to say they are called smritis not sanskrities.

> ! Youd actually advise that?!

Yes, thats the Vedic process. All arguments must be based on guru, sadhu, sastra.

> I tend to think that someone who uses scriptural arguments in a personal conflict or confrontation would not accept a counterargument anyway. There are also issues of seniority.

If the counterargument is proper, it should be accepted by a follower of Vedas. Sri Caitanya once accepted defeat from little boy Gopala and gave him a title Guru (later he became also Gosvami). Therere other such examples. Seniority by knowledge includes a better grasp of sastra.

> For example, I was in a conflict once with a senior mataji, a she used what I thought was an incorrect scriptural argument against me. I didnt fight back or correct her.

Its your choice to reply or not. If you reply it should be with a proper attitude (etiquette).

> I tend to think that anytime I would use a scriptural argument for attacking others or defending myself in debate, this would be an abuse of the scriptural argument.

No, it can be used with a proper etiquette. Obviously, sastra study isnt primarily meant to assert oneself over others. One who uses sastra to support ones ahankara is wrong.

> My point was that some people (especially New Agers), will readily and carelessly use heavy arguments against people, regardless of circumstance, and especially when the other person is experiencing a difficulty.

I understand. Its adharmic attitude.

> Well, its their group, they have the say.

If you choose not to act, you cant complain.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]> ! Youd actually advise that?!

[br]Yes, thats the Vedic process. All arguments must be based on guru, sadhu, sastra.[/quote]

I meant in cases of personal conflict or confrontation.[br]
[br]I understand scriptural arguments have their place in philosophical discussion. But in a conflict or confrontation?? When intense emotions are involved?[br]

[br][quote]No, it can be used with a proper etiquette.[/quote]

This is new to me! From those situations I was in, I have gotten the impression that I am supposed to be silent or agree, since I am the inferior/junior, and moreover, female; and that if I would give a counterargument, this would automatically be offensive, that I am "just quarreling".[br]

[br][quote]> Well, its their group, they have the say.

[br]If you choose not to act, you cant complain.[/quote]

[br]I am not complaining. I dont think I am entitled to anything there. From the beginning on, I have accepted as default that if I dont like something or someone, it is my problem, my failing, and my responsibility to somehow understand and make peace with what is happening, without ever speaking to others about it. I have taken, from the beginning on, as default that if anyone is going to adapt to anyone, it is going to be me adapting to the devotees, not they to me.[br]

[br]I am used to, though, to use the internet to "help me think". For some problems that I have, I tend to look for a forum or other site where I think there may be a good discussion available. I think it has helped me so far.[br]
[br]I am also a lot more liberal online than in person.[br]

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]No you should strive to be of a higher qualification in better association in a proper way.[br] In a way, historically, it used to be gurus first business to determent adhikara of the disciple (varna or for a vaisnava his position). So if you have to give respect to vaisnavas give it according to the fruits they produce (as madhyamas), not according to the age (sudras). You should respect seniors, but you should form association with like-minded devotees in the first place.[br][/quote]

I dont understand how I should form association with like-minded devotees? According to NoI 5, I am not suitable to be associated with to begin with.[br]

> I understand scriptural arguments have their place in philosophical discussion. But in a conflict or confrontation?? When intense emotions are involved?

Obviously, things have to calm down first. It takes some detachment to say and do - "Can we sit down and discuss, with facts and proper arguments? No adhominems, etc.?"

If a junior female (or anyone) can prove ones position by g-s-s, then such arguments are valid.

> I am not complaining. I dont think I am entitled to anything there. From the beginning on, I have accepted as default that if I dont like something or someone, it is my problem, my failing, and my responsibility to somehow understand and make peace with what is happening, without ever speaking to others about it.

The last part is the problem. One must communicate. You mentioned you have a problem with that so you should try to talk to some elder devotee/s and they should present your views and concerns to the group to be clarified. Did your aproach the leader of your group about this?

> I have taken, from the beginning on, as default that if anyone is going to adapt to anyone, it is going to be me adapting to the devotees, not they to me.

But youve brought up that they treat you unfairly. So things should be dealt with as above suggested.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]
> I am not complaining. I dont think I am entitled to anything there. From the beginning on, I have accepted as default that if I dont like something or someone, it is my problem, my failing, and my responsibility to somehow understand and make peace with what is happening, without ever speaking to others about it.

The last part is the problem. One must communicate. You mentioned you have a problem with that so you should try to talk to some elder devotee/s and they should present your views and concerns to the group to be clarified. Did your aproach the leader of your group about this?[/quote]

As a matter of fact, I did. He said that the way others behave is part of their "Vedic character" and suggested I should avoid those devotees.[br]

[br][quote]> I have taken, from the beginning on, as default that if anyone is going to adapt to anyone, it is going to be me adapting to the devotees, not they to me.

But youve brought up that they treat you unfairly. So things should be dealt with as above suggested.[/quote]

I have not yet decided whether they treat me unfairly or not. So far, I am seeing it as my karma, or that they are too advanced for me to understand them, and that I just need to find a way to deal with it, perhaps with the help of some people who are not directly involved.

ccd seems intent on indulging your flavour and mood......as i suggested both Veda Prabhu and he are indeed competent siksa gurus for the moment.However apart from patching up your emotional nature.....you must attempt to find somone locally to submissively serve ,hopefully connected to an iskcon temple.Though Veda Prabhu suggested Triparari swami in an instant fix....though he is no longer Iskcon sanctioned ,what maharaja suggested was in -fact genuine and relevant.

> He said that the way others behave is part of their "Vedic character" and suggested I should avoid those devotees.

So others, without "Vedic character" (whatever that is), you shouldnt avoid? Id like to see whats going on there...

> ...they are too advanced for me to understand them

The more advanced one is the better he can deal with others. The example of SP is at hand.

> I just need to find a way to deal with it, perhaps with the help of some people who are not directly involved.

But those persons will have to depend on intepretation of the problematic situations. I wouldnt dare to make any conclusions based on it.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]> He said that the way others behave is part of their "Vedic character" and suggested I should avoid those devotees.

[br]So others, without "Vedic character" (whatever that is), you shouldnt avoid? Id like to see whats going on there...[/quote]

I dont think this is how he meant it ... I think he meant that some (Vedic) characters are just a very poor match with other (Vedic) characters, and that there is no point in trying to push such people to get along by force.[br]

[br][quote]The more advanced one is the better he can deal with others.[/quote]

This is what I have been thinking as well. At some point, I felt that I had only two options: either become really really advanced, or dumb down. That the way I am, I could not survive there.[br]

[br][quote]But those persons will have to depend on intepretation of the problematic situations. I wouldnt dare to make any conclusions based on it.[/quote]

You dont have to make conclusions. Thank you for your help.[br]

[br]I am consciously operating on the principle of collecting different opinions and then with their help try to come up with some conclusion that I find fair and satisfactory. When I discuss my problems with someone, I observe what comes up in my mind, what is being triggered - these are usually things I dont write in open forums. It can sometimes be really tedious, though, and unfortunately, can lead to a narcissistic self-absorption. I have never learned any other way to address my problems, and I admit that this way is not as effective and as efficient as I would like.[br]

[br]Anyway, I am feeling much better now. I have actually been chanting 16 rounds for the fifth day in a row. Previously, I have only chanted about three to five, then I hadnt chanted for a couple of months, then on Thursday I chanted five, and on Friday 16. I cant do it all in one session yet, as I dont have enough voice, so I do it in several sessions. I have taken my mala with me to town, and even chanted on the bus. Its interesting, how loudly one can chant on the noisy city bus without any of the passangers seeming to notice much or be disturbed.[br]

>I have actually been chanting 16 rounds for the fifth day in a row.

Thats wonderful.

bhajanera madhye uc0u347 resu803 tu803 ha nava-vidhu257 bhakti
kru803 su803 nu803 a-prema, kru803 su803 nu803 a dite dhare mahu257 -u347 akti

tu257 ra madhye sarva-u347 resu803 tu803 ha nu257 ma-sau324 ku299 rtana
niraparu257 dhe nu257 ma laile pu257 ya prema-dhana

Among the ways of executing devotional service, the nine prescribed methods (hearing, chanting, remembering Kru803 su803 nu803 a, offering service to Kru803 su803 nu803 as lotus feet, offering worship in the temple, offering prayers, working as a servant, making friendship with Kru803 su803 nu803 a and unreservedly surrendering to Kru803 su803 nu803 a) are the best, for these processes have great potency to deliver Kru803 su803 nu803 a and ecstatic love for Him.

Out of the nine processes of devotional service, the most important is to always chant the holy name of the Lord. If one does so, avoiding the ten kinds of offenses, one very easily obtains the most valuable love of Godhead."

[quote][cite] Baker:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]No you should strive to be of a higher qualification in better association in a proper way.[br] In a way, historically, it used to be gurus first business to determent adhikara of the disciple (varna or for a vaisnava his position). So if you have to give respect to vaisnavas give it according to the fruits they produce (as madhyamas), not according to the age (sudras). You should respect seniors, but you should form association with like-minded devotees in the first place.[br][/quote]

I dont understand how I should form association with like-minded devotees? According to NoI 5, I am not suitable to be associated with to begin with.[br][/quote] You are on the right track. You seem to be a nice, honest and open person. It is nice to express doubts, the difficulty in doing it with devotees who are not likeminded is that they most probably will misunderstand you, while likeminded will listen (even if does not understand). We may occasionally remember - "Half of what I say is meaningless; but I say it so that the other half may reach you." (Khalil Gibran) Yeah loud japa in the bus is something else!

> I observe what comes up in my mind

Good. You can pray for the negative things to leave you.

> I have actually been chanting 16 rounds for the fifth day in a row.

Very good. Some blessings fell on your head. 8)

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]You are on the right track. You seem to be a nice, honest and open person.[/quote]

You are very kind, prabhu. I hope I may someday soon justify your favorable impression of me.[br]

[br][quote]It is nice to express doubts, the difficulty in doing it with devotees who are not likeminded is that they most probably will misunderstand you, while likeminded will listen (even if does not understand). We may occasionally remember - "Half of what I say is meaningless; but I say it so that the other half may reach you." (Khalil Gibran) [/quote]

Yes ... communication in online forums or in mixed groups has its problems ...

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]Good. You can pray for the negative things to leave you.[/quote]

And God really is magnanimous, its not simply that the scriptures present Him as such?[br]

[br][quote]Very good. Some blessings fell on your head. 8)[/quote]

I knew there was a reason why I have an oversized head! :)

> And God really is magnanimous, its not simply that the scriptures present Him as such?

Hes more magnanimous that we can even begin to grasp. But His devotees are even more magnanimous and thats a real wonder.
(Theres a NT parallel when apostles did greater miracles than Jesus.)

That is truly wonderful Bhaktine baker that you are chanting...16 rounds well done!Please continue ...... the mood and devotional instructions of Veda prabhu and ccd prabhu is indeed saturated with genuine intentions and honest motivation.hare krishna prabhus..