Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

Is there any official ISKCON policy on its senior members associating with NM?

Very nice lecture but why is he wearing mask? Looks like he is a Jaina Muni.

[quote][cite] dweller-in-peace:[/cite]Very nice lecture but why is he wearing mask? Looks like he is a Jaina Muni.[/quote]

Swine Flu?

Radhanatha Maharaja is a pure gem, he is advanced beyond our ability to comprehend. Surely such advanced souls are not under jurisdiction of official ISKCON policies. He does so much service for Srila Prabhupada in one day, that most of us will never be able to do in many lifetimes. His judgement is spotless, as is judgement of all uttama devotees. If he considers it proper to associate with Narayana Maharaja, then we can only observe it with great joy in heart, and be thankful to Krsna to be able to witness union of such greatest souls.

Advanced as he is, Radhanath Swami is not on platform of Uttama. Neither is Narayanna Maharaja.

Ananta-koti Vaisnava vrnda ki

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]Advanced as he is, Radhanath Swami is not on platform of Uttama. Neither is Narayanna Maharaja.

Ananta-koti Vaisnava vrnda ki[/quote] But you are dave, we know that dont we? It takes uttama to recognize uttama!

Yes,of course neither r Ascendency. Great souls none the less. Especially Radhanath swami since he is practically completely under the shelter of SP to very high degree in my estimation. I was very fortunate to be in his personal association only yesterday along with HH Mahavishnu swami and Urmila Devi dasi. Happy Days! :o)

Iskcon Guru vrnda ki

>I was surprised to see this recent video of Radhanatha Swami and Narayana Maharaja http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCIn4D1Ul4w
>Is there any official ISKCON policy on its senior members associating with NM?

When I was in school my teacher asked me to memorise one sloka. I cant remember the origin of that sloka because it was some 20 years ago, it could be either from Vidura Niti or Chanakya Niti or Manu smriti. Any way, the sloka is :

Manasi ekam vachasi ekam karmani ekam Mahatamanam.
Manasi anyad vachasi anyad karmani anyad Duratamanam.

Translation is : There are two types of people Mahatamas and Duratamas. Mahatamas are those who say the same thing what is in their mind and they do the same thing in their actions. Whereas duratamas have one thing in their mind, they say some thing else and they do something else.

They tell us that it is not good to associate with NM but themselves they associate. Very hard to understand ISKCON Mahatamas.

Veda: What the hell are karma points. Are they like laxmi points? Are you for real? You and sri-govinda-das need to take a vacation. I hear that Bali is nice this time of year. You two have had your say here for long enough.

Do you speak any Spanish? No habla blah blah. Can you translate that?

Okay -- now give me your clever reply. Get the last word Mr. Big Shot Veda.

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]Yes,of course neither r Ascendency. Great souls none the less. Especially Radhanath swami since he is practically completely under the shelter of SP to very high degree in my estimation. I was very fortunate to be in his personal association only yesterday along with HH Mahavishnu swami and Urmila Devi dasi. Happy Days! :o)

Iskcon Guru vrnda ki[/quote]

Youre not Nrsingha-Dave from Ireland are you?

Sorry if you arent, thats not an uncommon name.

One does not have to be on the uttam platform to recognize an uttama. By associating with uttama, one gets intelligence to discriminate as seeing the sun one automatically can compare and see who is a glow worm. The Sri Guruvastakam Prayers and the book Babaji Maharaja Two Beyond Duality are ideal references and good association with uttams which bless us with the power to discriminate. No need to break anyones faith, but we should take advantage of the highest association given to us and not be bewildered by

Deception and Devotional Service

An insight into the life and teachings of His Divine Grace Srila Gaura-Kishor das Babaji Maharaja

Once, a resident of Bangladesh (then East Bengal), who was a very wealthy landlord, scholar, and brahmana, and reputed to be a great devotee of the Lord, came with a friend to see Srila Gaura-Kishora dasa Babaji Maharaja. The land-owner appeared to be so deeply absorbed in devotional ecstacy that his friend had to support him as he walked, lest he fell down due to excessive trembling of the body.

When the pair arrived before Srila Babaji Maharaja, two other persons in the assembly, recognising the famous landlord, immediately received him as an advanced devotee of the Lord. They carefully offered their obeisances to him and arranged a sitting place.

At that time, Srila Gaura-Kishora dasa Babaji Maharaja, in his pastime of blindness, inquired "Who has come?" The friend of the land-owner introduced his companion by glowingly describing his erudition and devotion, and his being disinterested in material sense gratification, despite possessing unlimited wealth. He then described how, only a fortnight earlier, a thief had come and stolen forty-five thousand rupees from the landlords house. Despite suffering such a setback, the land-owner, knowing devotion to be much more significant, had come to obtain Srila Babaji Maharajas transcendental darsana (audience).

The friend added, "I am his friend. He has left all material sense gratification and keeps only my association. You will be able to realize his greatness by conversing with him. He once asked me a question about a confidential exchange between Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Srila Ramananda Raya found in the Caitanya-caritamrta. I told him that only Gaura-Kishora dasa Babaji could properly answer his question, and certainly no-one else. We have already been to see many learned persons in this area, and yet we cannot come to an agreement about the meaning of this conversation. We think that only you are able to explain it properly."

After the introduction was complete, Srila Babaji Maharaja replied, "I will tell you a process by which you can understand the conclusion of this conversation. But before trying to understand these confidential topics between Lord Caitanya and Srila Ramananda Raya, you should renounce the association of this rascal imposter (the land-owner) and take shelter of a pure devotee of the Lord. You should hear the Caitanya-caritamrta one-hundred times in the association of authentic devotees of the Lord. In this way, being absorbed in devotional ecstasy, you will be able to realize the purport of these conversations. At the present moment all the devotees here want to perform congregational chanting of the Holy Name of the Lord. We dont have time to discuss any other topics."

Having spoken thus, Srila Gaura-Kishora dasa Babaji Maharaja very loudly requested everyone to perform Harinama sankirtana. Everyone then began to congregationally chant the Lords Holy Names. After hearing the statement of Srila Babaji Maharaja, the proud landlord and his friend immediately left that place.

Later that evening, when almost everyone had left, some members of the assembly commented to Srila babaji Maharaja, "That very learned land-owner was absorbed in devotional ecstasy. We could not see any manifestation of material consciousness in him. He was devoid of worldly consciousness." Another person sitting nearby, who had always heard that Srila Gaura-Kishora dasa Babaji Maharaja was very straightforward with everyone, inquired, "That person was so immersed in various loving devotional ecstasies that he could not even walk by his own efforts. How is it that you can say he was not on the highest platform of bhakti?"

Srila Gaura-Kishora dasa Babaji Maharaja replied, saying, "After speaking with him for a few moments, I could understand that he had no good intentions in his performance of devotional service. One cannot measure a persons devotion by the approval of the general mass. If a person is not serious in his devotional practice, then even if he exhibits the symptoms of renunciation, non-attachment, and various ecstasies, still he should not be considered to have real renunciation or detachment. As soon as a difficult test comes, his false renunciation will cease. Detachment seeks out those who are actually fixed in their intention to perform devotional service. When performing practical devotional service, we should never exhibit our devotional ecstasies.

One should perform devotional service in such a way that his deep attachment to the Lord increases within his heart. Even if one displays hundreds and hundreds of exhibitions of external attachment, he will not be blessed by the Lord if he does not develop an internal loving attachment to Him. If one genuinely possesses a deep loving attitude, then Krsna Himself will approach and claim such an advanced devotee. Whoever is not enticed by the fragrance of unflinching devotional service, and whose heart is filled with material desires will wear different types of external bodily dress. Krsna is proportionately aloof or available according to the degree of ones surrender.

If one is deeply immersed in devotional attachment to Lord Hari, then even while suffering distressing disease or other material miseries, he will still remain absorbed in transcendental loving service to the Lord. If you can fast and chant Hare Krsna both day and night, and when you can always cry out with desire for the service of Vrsabhanus Radharani, without revealing it to others, then Sri Krsna, who is very dear to Srimati Radharani, will call you to take His shelter."

Very nice maah prabhu....

Please take it from me that Maal! Is topmost authentic siksa-Guru on the site. Very helpful!
Ysvt.

To be member of Aryan family not cheap thing. Only by adoption for Nitya-baddha.
Ysvt.

Anyone here wants to be a member of Aryan family? Please raise you hands..

Mein Fuhrer..! 8-l

Shape up or ship out was never Srila Prabhupadas mood nor his policy nor part of his ISKCON. Maybe its part of the ISKCON you know and which brainwashed you and turned you into the moron that you are. Do you have any idea of how displeased Prabhupada would be if you spoke that crap to him? Do you have any idea what you are saying? For your own sake my poor confused friend from New Zealand -- and I mean this with all my heart --- you need to shut the hell up. Just stop it. Immediately. Stop talking and stop writing. I fear for you. In fact I think maybe its best you just disconnect yourself from everything and come back to the teachings of Krishna consciousness when you are ready. Youve gotten off to a very bad start and if you continue in the direction youre going it might be too late for you in this life. This is very dangerous territory. Please -- take it from an older devotee. I know what Im talking about. You have no concept of Srila Prabhupada. Stop using his name. Please! I implore you -- for your sake and for the good of anybody who happens upon this website. Go away and maybe come back when you grow up -- when youre ready.

Whoever is in charge of this website -- have a little compassion for this guy and ban him. Consider it a cyber mercy killing.

As a disciple of Srila Radhanath maharaj , i can speak from some knowledge , he always glorifies Srila Narayan Maharaj as one of the great vaisnavas. He goes regularly to wash his feet and drink the caranamrita , and visits him regularly for advice , or to take maha-prasad and blessings for his preaching. He has great affection for Srila Narayan Maharaj and his lectures and books. I am glad to see this has been caught on video , finally so the public are aware of Guru maharajs true relationship with Srila Narayan Maharaj. Guru maharaj personally told me and my wife to take siksa from Srila Narayan Maharaj as he is a paramahamasa , uttam bagavat. Guru maharaj is a true pious soul , above any propaganda from the GBC against such a personality. Speak to any in the Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti , Radhanath maharaj is a regular , every few months , and will continue to be so , along with many other ISKCON sannyasis who still visit Narayan Maharaj for counsel.

All glories to Radhanath Maharaj. All glories to his siksa guru Narayan Maharaj.

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]Advanced as he is, Radhanath Swami is not on platform of Uttama. Neither is Narayanna Maharaja. [/quote]

[p]
Srila Prabhupada himself advised his disciples to take instruction from both the Late B.R. Sridhara Maharaja and Narayan Maharaj, it seems that some of his disciples have taken his instructions seriously and made further advancement and others have not.[/p]

[p]
Both of these personalities are considered topmost Gaudia Vaisnavas by Srila Prabhupada himself, I will not hazard at a guess as to what level they are on and I feel it would not only be very offensive, but foolish to the extreme to try and some of these people you are talking about maybe direct and personal associates of the Lord.[/p]

[p]
As nice as Maahs cut and pasted or copied story of Gaura Kishor Das Babajis story is, i dont find it sound and appropriate advice for general devotees, why?[/p]

[p]
>> By associating with uttama, one gets intelligence to discriminate as seeing the sun one automatically can compare and see who is a glow worm.[/p]

[p]
So this means in the beginning when one has no association with Uttama he has no intelligence to discriminate? Then how will one find an Uttama to associate with?
And simple analogies like the Sun vs the glow worm are just that very simple, understanding the heart of another living entity is more deeper than this thread could even touch on.[/p]

[p]
>>The Sri Guruvastakam Prayers and the book Babaji Maharaja Two Beyond Duality are ideal references[/p]

[p]
Books will only describe external symptoms of advanced vaisnavas and like Gaur Kishor Das Babaji points out, one could easily read these and display the external symptoms without any internal change.[/p]

[p]
Maahs example is where a topmost devotee/acharya Gaur Kishor Das Babaji detects someone imitating the symptoms of bhava and yet the devotees around him could not detect that. A better example would be where a Kanista devotee detected another devotee to be Uttama, all shastric examples appear to indicate one has to be on that level to know if someone else is on that level[/p]

[p]
So what to do? Take the advice of Srila Prabhupada, he would not advise his disciples to take advice from Gaudia Vaisnavas if they were not topmost.[/p]

I am personally disappointed and somewhat confused that ISKCON is pursuing a policy of reconciliation with HH Narayana Maharaja, in as much as this might be seen to validate his specific position on the teaching of rasa. Whilst I certainly see no reason for personal animosity toward anyone, there are crucial differences of approach between the two camps. I try not to be a blind follower of anyone, and I try to remain objective about all of these disagreements. But the pursuance of rasa as something that can be directly instructed or realised through verbal transmission just doesnt sit well with me. Surely rasa is revealed through personal service to the spiritual master in expanding the sankirtana movement? I remember reading a paper on this subject written by a very nice devotee, to the effect that if one wants to enter into the understanding of the affairs of Radha and Krishna, one must approach Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and offer Him service in humility. He quoted an instruction from Sri Nityananda Prabhu to Jiva Goswami which stated this (although Im afraid Im not intelligent enough to remember it specifically!)

On the absolute plane, there can be no difference between Mahaprabhus external activities of spreading the sankirtana movement, and His internal activities of relishing the mood of Srimati Radharani. But the path that both He and Srila Prabhupada instruct us to take is clear. The sankirtana movement, by definition, is not a closed shop (nor an open one!) of debate and discussion about higher topics between individuals who are already on the path of bhakti. The sankirtana movement is the spreading of the chanting of the Holy Names of the Lord to those who are yet to step on that path (in this lifetime at least), and through that process, the greater relishing of those Names and Their significance by those who transmit Them.

Rasa topics are realised within the heart by the mercy of Sri Krishna. They are not realised by any amount of external instruction. One who desires to achieve the mercy of Sri Sri Radha Krishna must approach Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. And one can only please Mahaprabhu, not by concentration on the discussion of confidential matters, but by attempting to fulfil His desire that all people should chant His name. Focus on discussion of such topics is thus an unnecessary distraction from the real purpose of the sankirtana movement.

As Srila Prabhupada said to one enquirer: "you may be qualified to hear about such topics, but I am not qualified to speak them". His is the standard of humility that one should, and must, expect from all those who serve him either as siksa or diksa disciples.

[quote][cite] manasi_seva:[/cite][quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]Advanced as he is, Radhanath Swami is not on platform of Uttama. Neither is Narayanna Maharaja. [/quote]

[p]
Srila Prabhupada himself advised his disciples to take instruction from both the Late B.R. Sridhara Maharaja and Narayan Maharaj, it seems that some of his disciples have taken his instructions seriously and made further advancement and others have not.[/p]

[/quote]

Can you please provide the quotes from Prabhuapda that he advised this?

[quote][cite] manasi_seva:[/cite]Srila Prabhupada himself advised his disciples to take instruction from both the Late B.R. Sridhara Maharaja and Narayan Mahara[/p][/quote]

Srila Prabhupada gave permission for his senior disciples to take advice from Srila Narayana Maharaja about his (Srila Prabhupadas) Samadhi arrangements and the procedures for that...he certainly didnt instruct his disciples to take instruction in a general way, it was specific to that particular event.

Yes I have heard the all the arguments for and against NM and what Srila Prabhupada said and what he didnt say.

If Iskcon had carried on as Srila Prabhupada had wanted then there would be no need to even look outside of Iskcon. However Srila Prabhupadas agenda was sidelined, so now we must take responsibility for our own spiritual lives and choose the association we want, and Iskcon is fond of always saying "We are non sectarian" which actually means we are not limited to a particular Institution.

How do we define Senior? is it position?, rank?, GBC title? Guru Title? a rubber stamp? Well that cant be right because many of those that were appointed had these senior titles and are either no longer around or fell down and in some cases with heinous crimes surrounding them. So as far as I am concerned its your life! You can either choose to get second rate advice from non-qualified people or you can seek out those that are qualified.

I left Iskcon many moons ago, as an individual jiva I have the right to choose who I will take my diksa and association from, who I see as being senior and I will base that on Guru, Sadhu, Shastra just as Srila Prabhupada taught us and not on what some committee has voted on. The Bhagavad Gita tells us to seek out a genuine spiritual master and inquire from him submissively, which means its person/acharya based not institution based.

Thanks to Srila Prabhupada and the great legacy he left us (not in his institution, assets or buildings) but in his instructions and his books we cannot be cheated or deceived as long as we read his instructions/books and follow them. We also need to apply some intelligence because some of the instructions (letters and personal talks) were based on time, place and circumstance and like I said, I believe the Iskcon of today is not the same Iskcon as when Srila Prabhupada was here.

The times have changed and the circumstances are now different, there are some very advanced Gaudia Vaisnavas out there and I see no reason to be sectarian about this. Of course if ones faith is so delicate that they feel it might be shattered or ruined if one listens to anyone outside of Iskcon then dont!

Its your choice, but remember you do have a choice.

> Well that cant be right because many of those that were appointed had these senior titles and are either no longer around or fell down

Where is senior equated to prema bhakta (who cant fall down)?

> The times have changed and the circumstances are now different, there are some very advanced Gaudia Vaisnavas out there and I see no reason to be sectarian about this.

When there were no very advanced Gaudiya Vaisnavas out there?

> Of course if ones faith is so delicate that they feel it might be shattered or ruined if one listens to anyone outside of Iskcon then dont!

If you glorify the legacy of SP, why dont you follow his instructions on not taking siksa outside ISKCON?

[quote][cite] manasi_seva:[/cite]Thanks to Srila Prabhupada and the great legacy he left us (not in his institution, assets or buildings) but in his instructions and his books we cannot be cheated or deceived as long as we read his instructions/books and follow them.[/quote]

There are no "Srila Prabhupada books" without ISKCON, ever. It is basically ISKCON who holds the copyrights, who preserves and publishes the texts, videos and other media. There is no access to Srila Prabhupadas legacy without the mercy of ISKCON.
[br] Just because one holds a book with Srila Prabhupadas texts in ones hands, thinking "Oh, this doesnt have anything to do with ISKCON anymore, I am holding this book in my hands now" - then in my opinion, this is just shortsighted and miserly.[br]

[br]I do not think it is fair to read a book, to take advice from it, but ignore, be dismissive or even hostile toward how the book came to be published and distributed.

Dear Kesavaya.

As you are not in the database of disciples of Radhanatha Swami and at the same time telling some very questionable things in the name of Radhanatha swami it is very hard to belive what are you saying. The older disciples of Radhanatha swami dont know you and also one of those who was on the visit to Narayana Swami .

Your letter how it is written sound like very cheap propaganda. Already seen.

[quote][cite] kesavaya:[/cite]As a disciple of Srila Radhanath maharaj , i can speak from some knowledge , he always glorifies Srila Narayan Maharaj as one of the great vaisnavas. He goes regularly to wash his feet and drink the caranamrita , and visits him regularly for advice , or to take maha-prasad and blessings for his preaching. He has great affection for Srila Narayan Maharaj and his lectures and books. I am glad to see this has been caught on video , finally so the public are aware of Guru maharajs true relationship with Srila Narayan Maharaj. Guru maharaj personally told me and my wife to take siksa from Srila Narayan Maharaj as he is a paramahamasa , uttam bagavat. Guru maharaj is a true pious soul , above any propaganda from the GBC against such a personality. Speak to any in the Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti , Radhanath maharaj is a regular , every few months , and will continue to be so , along with many other ISKCON sannyasis who still visit Narayan Maharaj for counsel.

All glories to Radhanath Maharaj. All glories to his siksa guru Narayan Maharaj.[/quote]

In regards to the above comments by Kesavaya, these statements are bold and inaccurate.
Certainly SNM is a Vaisnava, elderly and advanced, and offering of respects is essential. Yet there is a difference between a general offering of respects and the kind of intimate exchange suggested at by Kesavaya. We are recommended to offer respects to everyone, even Mayavadi sannyasis, what then to someone who has dedicated the majority of life to RadhaKrishna seva, even if there are misunderstandings between other Vaisnavas. If an influencial Vaisnava comes close to your temple then what is the problem to offer respects, even if to just understand the program of such a person
.
RM has a reputation of highly developed Vaisnava etiquette and being able to offer respects to all, but not at the cost of loyalty to Srila Prabhupada and ISKCON considerations.
Those who are close to Srila Radhanath Swami are in disagreement with these statements of Kesavaya, and also uncertain of his identity. If one actually understands RM and accepts him as Guru then he would not make such bold statements understanding the displeasing result that would be obtained.
If it was so true that RM regularly visits and takes siksha, then would we not have heard about it before, considering the gossip rate with this internet facility?

[cite] Baker:[/cite][quote]I do not think it is fair to read a book, to take advice from it, but ignore, be dismissive or even hostile toward how the book came to be published and distributed.[/quote]

[p]So on this example if I pull one of Srila Prabhupadas books from a rubbish bin and get great benefit from it I should bow down and give dandavats to the rubbish bin? and what about Srila Bhaktisiddanta Maharaja? Should we not say that because Srila Prabhupadas guru was from the Gaudia Math that he took instructions from him that we cannot ignore Gaudia Math?[/p]

[p]
Besides I will only read the books that were published by Iskcon when Srila Prabhupada was still on the planet, I would not read any of Srila Prabhupadas books that have been dubiously edited by dubious persons since his departure.[/p]

[cite] Baker:[/cite][quote]It is basically ISKCON who holds the copyrights.[/quote]

[p]
Are you kidding me? The whole nature of Shastra is that it is passed down "parampara" the only personality that holds copyright on all of this is Sri Krishna....what fool would lay original claim to what the Adi Purusha (Original Person) Sri Krishna said other than Sri Krishna himself? The whole nature of parampara means that you cannot claim copyright unless you are proposing something completely different to what the Shastra is saying, something original and in our disciplic succession we do not do that...its Guru, Sadhu Shastra....What the Guru speaks is confirmed by previous Sadhus and Shastra..which is copyright free..it is the original open source..in the public domain...non-copy rightable...it is the inheritance of all jivas that wish to wake up and apply it..Jiv jago, jiv jago, gauracanda bole
kota nidra jao maya- pisacira kole ( Lord Gauranga is calling, "Wake up, sleeping souls!
How long will you sleep in the lap of the witch called Maya?)[/p]

[quote][cite] Baker:[/cite][quote][cite] manasi_seva:[/cite]Thanks to Srila Prabhupada and the great legacy he left us (not in his institution, assets or buildings) but in his instructions and his books we cannot be cheated or deceived as long as we read his instructions/books and follow them.[/quote]

There are no "Srila Prabhupada books" without ISKCON, ever. It is basically ISKCON who holds the copyrights, who preserves and publishes the texts, videos and other media. There is no access to Srila Prabhupadas legacy without the mercy of ISKCON.
[br] Just because one holds a book with Srila Prabhupadas texts in ones hands, thinking "Oh, this doesnt have anything to do with ISKCON anymore, I am holding this book in my hands now" - then in my opinion, this is just shortsighted and miserly.
[br]I do not think it is fair to read a book, to take advice from it, but ignore, be dismissive or even hostile toward how the book came to be published and distributed.[/quote][br]
This is backwards, there is no ISKCON without Srila Prabhupadas books. There is no access to Krisnas mercy without the legacy of Srila Prabhupadas books. ISKCON has no purpose without these books, its main purpose is to distribute them.

Very well put mung, I totally agree!

[cite] VEDA:[/cite][quote]If you glorify the legacy of SP, why dont you follow his instructions on not taking siksa outside ISKCON?[/quote]

[p]
Prabhupadas final statements about Srila Sridhara Maharaja: there is Srila Prabhupadas letter to Hrsikesa (1969):[/p]

[p]
"I can refer you to one who is most highly competent of my godbrothers. This is B. R. Sridhara Maharaja, whom I consider to be even my siksa-guru, so what to speak of the benefit that you can have from his association."[/p]

[p]
Srila Prabhupada repeatedly tried to get Srila Sridhara Maharaja to come to his temple in Mayapur (see letter to Srila Sridhara Maharaja in 1976 and Room Conversation in 1977--excerpts in chapter one). In the 1977 Room Conversation, Srila Prabhupada offers to build Srila Sridhara Maharaja a house at the Mayapur temple so Srila Sridhara Maharaja can preach to Srila Prabhupadas disciples-imploring Sridhara Maharaja six times to please do so.[/p]

[p]
Clearly Srila Prabhupada was non-sectarian he invited his god brother B.R. Sridhar Maharaja into his own house to preach to his own disciples.[/p]

[p]Sectarian : meaning Of, relating to, or characteristic of a sect.

- Adhering or confined to the dogmatic limits of a sect or denomination; partisan.
- Narrow-minded; parochial.
- A member of a sect.
One characterized by bigoted adherence to a factional viewpoint.[/p]

[p]
Read it all here: http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vishnu_mjs/affection_unabridged/oag_a_5.html[/p]

B.R. Sridhar M. a B.V. Narayan M. were already discussed - they were specific cases.

See a compilation of opposite quotes in Sivarama Swamis book "Siksa Outside ISKCON?" and then you can accuse Prabhupada of being sectarian.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]B.R. Sridhar M. a B.V. Narayan M. were already discussed - they were specific cases.

See a compilation of opposite quotes in Sivarama Swamis book "Siksa Outside ISKCON?" and then you can accuse Prabhupada of being sectarian.[/quote]

[p]
VEDA this is the last time I will respond to your imbecilic questions. Why? because you dont read anything thoroughly before you respond and if you do then you fail to comprehend and I guess the fact that you are an ardent admirer of SGD says it all.[/p]

[p]
What did I say about Srila Prabhupada? "Clearly Srila Prabhupada was non-sectarian" and then I give a meaning of what Sectarian is beneath that, highlighting the difference and how NON-SECTARIAN Srila Prabhupada was in his mood! Understand it now? or should I break it down further and use more simpler words for you?[/p]

[p]
If you cannot even read plain english and comprehend a few basic english words then you disqualify yourself from this discussion. Better you close your mouth, stop typing, read! and in your case read many many many times over and then take a few days to think it over. I guess that word knucklehead is starting to become very appropriate for you[/p]

[p]
As I said I have responsibility for my own spiritual life, Im not interested in some rubber stamped Iskcon swamis opinions. Personal discussions and quotes are just that they are personal and quite often given in a time, place and circumstance setting. Whatever Srila Prabhupadas instructions were on that level were given at a time when Iskcon was following his agenda and his instructions. If that is no longer the case and the rubber stamped gurus of Iskcon can no longer take devotees further down the path, then many will leave and go to all sorts of different personalities. As they did with B.R. Sridhar Maharaja before he passed away and are doing now with Narayan Maharaja. This has happened, it is happening and it will continue to happen and there is nothing you, Iskcon, the GBC and Sivarama Swami can do about it.[/p]

[p]
I believe there are some good online english courses in basic english comprehension, try googling it![/p]

Cheer up everyone. Krishnas real, after all.

I hoped the discussion wouldnt descend into personal attacks but it seems to occur with most topics here. My motivation behind the post was to discover whether the GBC has an official policy on its senior devotees associating with other Sannyasis outside of ISKCON - in this case Srila Narayana Maharaja.

manasi, yes, you should really take care of your spiritual life. If you cant answer in a civilized way, ad hominems wont help you.

The SRSs book is based on quotes from SP, so its not his (SRSs) opinion. If youll read it youll see that SP was sectarian in case of several of his Godbrothers. This situation may have largely changed (none of them are with us anymore) but not completely. I also hope that in future there could be some cooperation among all GV groups.

rasa108:
> personal attacks but it seems to occur with most topics here

But only from a few individuals.

[quote][cite] rasa108:[/cite]I hoped the discussion wouldnt descend into personal attacks but it seems to occur with most topics here. My motivation behind the post was to discover whether the GBC has an official policy on its senior devotees associating with other Sannyasis outside of ISKCON - in this case Srila Narayana Maharaja.[/quote]

[p]
Yes well when people accuse me of attacking Srila Prabhupada and they have not even comprehended or read my post correctly that is also a very offensive personal attack and a very stupid one. If people are going to post here and make personal attacks they should make doubly sure they completely read someones post and understand and if they cannot do that then they simply should not be posting here.[/p]

[p]
If you wish to have a committee decide on who you can listen to or associate with then you are subscribing to a sectarian organistaion "bigoted adherence to a factional viewpoint". [/p]

[p]
The GBC are a management committee, they are all about control and they care about numbers of devotees and protecting their empire and when the real thing comes along.you can bet they dont want anyone visiting or hearing from someone who is a self effulgent Gaudia Vaisnava who is not from Iskcon. The interesting thing is some Iskcon Sannyass that visit NM if they see Iskcon devotees there they give them a hard time and say they should not be visiting NM.[/p]

[p]
Of course if you havent read any of Srila Prabhupadas books and you dont know the philosophy well then maybe you shouldnt disturb someone like NM its all common sense really, you dont need some committee deciding on who you can and cannot speak or associate with. It becomes self apparent just by reading Srila Prabhupadas books.[/p]

[p]
However the GBC is stuck between a rock and hard place if they deny the right of devotees to visit NM and the truth gets out that NM is in awe and very respectful of Srila Prabhupada and has put him in the centre and his depth and mood are way deeper than what you will find anywhere in Iskcon it places them in a bad light of denying access to the real thing.[/p]

[p]
The GBC are seeking a reconciliation with NM to stop the exodus to his camp. Personally I couldnt give two hoots what the GBC says or does at best they can only be a management committee of the physical institution, they have proven historically that they fail time and time again in either making decisions or simply not making any decisions. People, committees and institutions have the power over you that you allow them to have.[/p]

[p]
Sri Krishna in The Bhagavad Gita gives you the permission to seek out a genuine spiritual master, thats all the permission you need![/p]

By the way wasnt Radhanatha Swami one of the people that was implicated in Sulocana dass (Steven Bryant) murder?

"Radhanath is just a bag of hot air, pretending to be a saint, but when it comes to doing something, he does nothing. And it should be known that he goes to all of the Gaudiya Math people to get the nectar that he speaks in his katha, but he will never tell you where he gets his stuff from. I am not supporting or knocking the Gaudiya Math here. I am just saying that Radhanath is not honest. At least he should give credit to where he is getting his stuff from. I think Radhanath also knew about the murder of Chakrapani as well. And all of the years that Kirtanananda was doing the monk robe thing, Radhanath personally glorified Kirtanananda to me as a pure devotee"

http://www.harekrsna.org/gbc/black/radanath.htm

Why does nothing that some of these bogus Iskcon Gurus do surprise me?

The other guy who was killed there was Chakradhari ... not Chakrapani. Dhari .. Pani .... either way ... he was murdered by Daruka and Tirtha in a very gruesome and horrific attack. Chakradhari, who was at one time an avid supporter and follower of Kirtanananda and a long-time resident of New Vrindaban, began to question Kirtananandas policies and worse yet -- got into a money dispute with him. Then Chakradhari made the mistake of having an affair with Darukas wife, Vrishni.

If all that wasnt bad enough both Chakradharis young son and Darukas young son were found dead inside an old discarded refrigerator. They were playing inside it and the door closed on them and they suffocated. Its actually illegal to leave a refrigerator lying around like that. A rope has to be tied around it so the door doesnt open. Anyway, Daruka, in his grief, somehow blamed Chakradhari for that. Was Radhanatha implicated in that? Possibly. However, its a fact that Radhanatha was deeply implicated in the Sulocana affair. His reasoning was that he and others in New Vrindaban were convinced that Sulocana was out to not only ruin Kirtananandas reputation and blaspheme him everywhere he went and to everyone he met -- but Sulocana also planned to either murder Kirtanananda himself or hire somebod to do it. So the justification was "we had to get him before he got to Kirtanananda." Back then Sulocana was considered a disgruntled ex-devotee whose main complaint was that his wife refused to leave New Vrindaban with him along with his children ... and Kirtanananda was considered a pure devotee. Not just a pure devotee -- his followers in New Vrindaban were convinced that he was the only rightful successor to Srila Prabupada. Some people even convinced themselves that Kirtanananda was an incarnation of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura. The insanity that went on especially back in the late 70s and early 80s there in New Vrindaban was unreal. Surreal. Radhanatha was right in the middle of the whole thing; however, when it became clear that Kirtanananda was falling from grace and was about to be ousted from ISKCON Radhanatha wisely began to distance himself from his one-time mentor and idol. As far as Im concerned -- its all understandable and forgivable given the time, place and circumstance but what isnt acceptable is the fact that Radhanatha is not forthcoming and honest about it. According to him -- he did nothing wrong -- was never in any illusion about Kirtanananda -- had nothing at all to do with any of the corruption -- and remained aloof from it all. That simply is not true. Its dishonest. Its a smokescreen. Why does he feel the need to play the game of politics, diplomacy and intrigue when it comes to those subjects? Id have a lot more respect for him if he would just admit his part in all of it which includes the fact that he remained a blinded obsequious sycophant to Kirtanananda right up until the last minute when the sky began to fall in on the whole trip there. Honest and humble? Nope -- thats for the little people ... not for the big appointed gurus who write books and walk around with folded palms like some humble caricature of Mahatma Gandhi, telling delightful little stories. I even heard him give a talk in which he greatly exaggerated his personal association with Srila Prabhupada which was all but nonexistent. (how Prabhupada looked right at him from the Vyasa Adana when he said this and that .. and how Radhanatha just knew Prabhupada was speaking to him personally ... yada yada yada). Where is the maturity? Where is the integrity? Where is the honesty? Where is the humility? Its all so embarrassing that he has become the poster boy for todays ISKCON. Thats the other thing. He sometimes distances himself from ISKCON and sometimes raises the ISKCON banner --- according to whichever posture and position is most beneficial for his self promotion at the time. Hes a class act. But thats what it is ... an act.

Okay -- its your turn sgd. Lets hear how envious I am.

Yes in the same article I referred to it states both Chakradhari and Chakrapani...."Chakrapani" must be a typo in the article.

Yes its so weird and seemingly non-coincidental that both of the two devotees that were murdered by Tirtha das both of their sons were also found dead (Sulochanas son drowns and Chakradharis was one of the boys found in the refridgerator), its also interesting how Radhanatha leaves this whole escapade out of his "Autobiography of an American Swami" now that title seems very familiar...oh yes "Autobiography of a Yogi" by Paramhansa Yogananda.

I must admit I read about these articles many years ago shortly after they took place and the articles sickened me to my guts...I felt ill just reading about them. I also read the book Monkey on a stick. Its a sad day when so many dark chapters come after so much enlightenment was given by Srila Prabhupada. After Srila Prabhupada left the planet the Iskcon caravan really did end up in an abyss.

Seems like all Vaisnava qualities are disappearing from this discussion.

May I ask if either of the last two comment makers were there at that time in NV? Maybe so, I wasnt myself.

If not, or even if so, then why also must these other persons quoted be the absolute authority on the history and personal motivations of persons at that time?
I question whether all the deeply frustrated remarks and anger such as found there are able to offer any kind of accurate perception. No doubt terrible things took place, but who says this is the absolute true version of all the persons involved?

There are many accounts from others who were also there at that time which defend the honesty and sincerity of Srila Radhanath Swami.
Not to mention a thorough police investigation in which the officers in charge decided against any involvement of Radhanath Swami with any crimes at NV.

If, in order to preach one must be empowered by Krsna, then why such huge success for Maharaj if he is indeed guilty of such crimes? And I am not talking of material success or big projects, but just the ability to touch tens of thousands of individuals hearts and infuse them with pure ambitions and pure devotion. One who visits Mumbai temple is completely swept away by the qualities of the vaisnavas there. Good fruits do not come from a rotten tree.
Personally, I am not a sentimentalist, neither am I ready to lose control of my tongue or typing fingers due to frustration and anger. I am not an advanced devotee, having little experience, yet still I will not lower myself to such degrading criticism and offenses as we are finding here.
Hare Krishna.

Greetings Forum Participants,
Hare Krishna!
In many ancient spiritual and martial arts traditions, there are strict rules and protocols of etiquette. At the time of the appearances of Lord Krishna, and Lord Chaitanya, such strict rules were in place. The non-devotees also have rules of etiquette, rhetoric and logic, to aid in productive and meaningful relationships. HH Bhanu Swami has translated a book by Shrila Narahari Sarkar Thakur, called Shri Bhajanamrita. Therein he explains that, in the Kali Yuga, spiritual discrimination is severely challenged, and even very advanced souls can become confused. His book presents a basic course in Gaudiya Vaishnava etiquette. In my opinion, for what its worth, among people I dont know that well, there have been some very unkind comments made here, between opponents from different camps. I suggest the participants find Shri Bhajanamrita online and read it carefully. My deceased God brother, His Grace Puru dasa Prabhu, posted it here: http://www.bvml.org/SKB/index.html

I also suggest, before making harsh condemnations and speculations of and about people who are not present here to present a defense, that they be consulted directly to get the facts straight. I personally know HG Chakrapani Dasa and he was certainly not murdered in NV. I was also a close associate of HG Sulocana Dasa, attended his funeral, and know for a fact who pulled the trigger, and the actual history leading to that, from his direct experience.

One of the problems in a forum like this, it seems, is that some, or many of the participants are not strictly under the "control" of a Diksha or Shiksa Guru. In more traditional times, a disciple would not eat if not called to take prasadam by the Guru. The disciple, in those days, was expected to offer absolute submission and obedience, and would never act independently of the Gurus specific or general instructions. Shrila Prabhupad [AC Bhaktivedanta Swami] gave explicit instructions that his disciples were not to criticize his God brothers. That instruction was never rescinded so, it still stands. Disciples of Shrila Prabhupad can only speak in positive terms about their God uncles, whether or not they associate. There are hundreds of shastric injunctions warning about making negative commentary about Vaishnavas and those aspiring to become Vaishnavas. Even among Christians, Muslims and Jews there are scriptural statements warning of criticism, contention and conflict between members of the same religion. What to speak of such rules appearing among so-called uncivilized forest tribes! What we find very often today is the "loose cannon", a disciple who is/was initiated, but is unable to understand and obey rules of etiquette and is so motivated by sectarian passion that the tongue is out of control.

Sometimes these forums look more like a meadow full of croaking toads than a forum for the dignified, respectful and "regulated" discussion of important matters.

PDK

karapurnam said:
"Seems like all Vaisnava qualities are disappearing from this discussion."

response: including honesty?
<<< >>>

"either of the last two comment makers were there at that time in NV? Maybe so, I wasnt myself."

response: i was.
<<< >>>
"I question whether all the ...remarks..offer any kind of accurate perception."

response: on the basis of "i wasnt there and i dont know."?

<<< >>>
"No doubt terrible things took place, but who says this is the absolute true version of all the persons involved? "

response: what has ISKCON done about these "terrible things that took place"? is this the proper course of action? for those who rejected the lawsuit settlement offer, what will satisfy them and when will ISKCON face those responsibilities?

<<< >>>
"There are many accounts from others who were also there at that time which defend the honesty and sincerity of Srila Radhanath Swami."
response: please document any such reports and ask would they be willing to stand before The Deities and make such untrue statements.

<<< >>>
"Not to mention a thorough police investigation in which the officers in charge decided against any involvement of Radhanath Swami with any crimes at NV."
response: actually, the story that the local police and FBI offered was that "sometimes some of them just slip through the cracks", far less than "a clean bill of healthg" regarding non involvement. since the only restriction on radhanaths return to ISKCON was that he not be indicted any further for his NVC era activities, his fathers legal package with the chicago FBI office assured radhanaths safe return to ISKCON. the assumption that the real estate assets left in the wake of the kirtanananda ousting would revert back to iSKCON on radhanaths reinstatement was not and cannot be carried out. no quid pro quo, im afraid.
<<< >>>

"Personally, I am not a sentimentalist, "
response: time will tell.

Always the same bullshit. Somebody tells it like it is -- cuts through all the crap and tells the truth and theyre labeled faultfinders. Im not a faultfinder. Im a truth finder. If you have a problem with that then its your problem, not mine.

Thou shalt not criticize? How about Thou shalt not kill? or Thou shalt not perjure thyself. Thou shalt not be a hypocrite and a phony. People were killed. People were hurt. Children were raped. Children were beaten and starved. Kirtanananda turned New Vrindaban into Dantes Inferno with the black robes to go with it. Insanity .... utter insanity .. and Radhanath was right there cheerleading it on and going along with all of it. Why cant he just admit it and go on from there? If Nixon would have just admitted his wrongdoing instead of looking like an idiot and saying "I am not a crook and I have never lied to the American people" he would have been forgiven and served out his term. If Clinton would have admitted hes a horny bastard and had sex with Monica instead of lying .... he would have been forgiven because hes just human. I admit my mistakes so I expect my brothers to be as frank and open and unpretentious as Im willing to be. Is that too much to ask?

By the way --- my oldest son and two of my daughters were sexually molested in New Vrindaban. You wanna quote scripture to me now? You self righteous sons of bitches make me sick talking about Vaisnava etiquette. How dare you? What will I hear next -- that it was their karma? Until your kids are raped in the dead of night by some asshole wearing saffron -- then you can bring on Vaisnava qualities that are disappearing from this discussion.

* Sanatana
* CommentTime13 hours ago edited
Seems like all Vaisnava qualities are disappearing from this discussion.

Why do you post this?

* Janmastami das
* CommentTime2 hours ago

karapurnam said:
"Seems like all Vaisnava qualities are disappearing from this discussion."

That was posted by Sanatana, not me.

I specifically said" Vaishnavas and those aspiring to be Vaishnavas." When a demon or mundane person is found to be posing as a Vaishnava, they should be removed. Unfortunately, many are still in positions of power, and are surrounded by blind followers. I can understand there is much pain felt by parents who had their children molested. I personally know many who were. Rather than spewing venom everywhere, do something! I was at a temple were a pedophile was caught molesting the children. He was taken out back and beaten until almost dead, then dropped off on the pavement in front of the local Hospital emergency ward. If children were molested and "they" are still around, what are the parents waiting for? There are no prohibitions from getting blood one ones hands in the proper context. My comments above had to do with God brothers of Shrila Prabhupad and genuine Vaishnavas. As far as the demonic and mundane posing as devotees, they are to be removed by force. I think our scripture allows karma-free killing of aggressors, one who sets fire to the home, steals a wife, or attacks those under protection, such as Brahmans, women, children, cows, the aged and ill. If there is incontrovertable evidence that a child has been molested and the molester has not been properly dealt with, "something" should and must be done. HG Sulocana gave up his life for what he knew was correct. Why cant others.

PDK

> Rather than spewing venom everywhere, do something!

Imho, this is the crux of the issue. The perpetrators were specific persons and if theyre known, nonaction of the harmed ones has a continued entangling effect on them. Either forgive or act; passive criticism is a sign of impotency, like a barking of dogs.

Karapurnam the problem with your method of getting ones hands bloody and dumping them in front of a hospital is this, they will get fixed up and go out and re-offend. They may leave your zone but they will probably move along to the next zone. They need taking out of the system, it is an illegal offense against the laws of the state and it should be treated as such. If they go to prison for 10-15 years that would be much better, then they can become so ones little princess in the lock up and get a taste of what they have been dishing out.

If Iskcon were really serious about stopping this issue they would
1) Issue a mandate to all temple authorities that if anyone is found to be molesting anyone they will go straight to the police.

2) If temple authorities fail to act they should be removed for complicity.

3) A database of all known past/current (so called devotees) that commit these crimes should be kept so under no circumstance
should they ever be near or in charge of any child facilities. Preferably they should live outside and only visit the temples as far as I am concerned they have broken the most fundamental trust.

4) Any person wishing to do service in Iskcon schools or any service that is even remotely close to having contact with Iskcon children should be character checked
with local and federal authorities to make sure they dont have records for child abuse.

Even this will not guarantee it wont happen but I dont even see Iskcon taking any measures to protect the children of Iskcon, how is it the lessons are never learned?

In the early 80s in my zone the Iskcon authorities placed a convicted child molester as head master of the school...Go figure!

Wow, I took a moment to check whats been happening here after some time away, and I see it hasnt changed a bit.

The discussion reminds me of 2005 at Gita-nagari, when a few GBC applied for an exemption from the Child Protection Office for one devotee who had been found guilty of child molestation to come and lead kirtan while Bhakti Tirtha Swami was dying. As I understand it, it was Radhanatha and Malati who petitioned the CPO on BTSs behalf, and the CPO granted an exemption allowing the devotee to lead kirtan while BTS was leaving his body. I couldnt imagine why BTS would want that, but whatever, that was his wish.

As it happened, the slight waiver of the CPOs restrictions (which were never really enforced anyway) was taken practically as a full pardon allowing unrestricted activity. One scene that struck me as very disturbing, which I saw twice, was seeing Radhanatha sitting on the Vyasaasana lavishly glorifying this devotee, who had lost the appeal of his case with the CPO around the same time. BTS did the same, but it seemed more excusable due to his state of mind. I remember Radhanatha glorifying this devotee in such a way as to suggest that he was comparable to the devotee from Lord Caitanyas pastimes whom he was named after. How can someone be an unrepentant child molester and a great devotee at the same time?

Since my wife was on the Child Protection Team, and I a community board member, we felt it our duty to investigate how this devotee was invited to our commmunity without even any notice given to the community concerning his child molestation issues. We requested to meet with Radhanatha Swami about it, but someone decided my wife could meet but I could not. We objected that this was not proper, and the meeting never occurred. Instead we were condemned and shunned for expressing our concerns.

A month or two later, someone brought up the subject in a devotee e-mail forum, and it was suggested that if Radhanatha befriends somebody, that person must be pure and faultless. When I said a supposed saint befriending a child molester might be reason to wonder if the pure devitee isnt as pure as previously thought, I was immediately banned from the forum.

Well, I dont intend to get back into the mess here, but I just felt like saying that. hari bol.

The only reason Radhanatha and Devamrita swamis did not go to jail was that they cut a deal with the Feds because they were deeply involved in K-swamis shenanigans. Devamrita very likely worked for CIA earlier, when travelling behind the Iron Curtain. I knew him in those days very well.

If anybody sexually abused my kids they would have taken a bullet in the groin from my rifle... sannyasi or not. Criminals must be punished, or their criminality only increases.

> I dont even see Iskcon taking any measures to protect the children of Iskcon, how is it the lessons are never learned?

Theres something called Child Protection Office since several years back.

> Well, I dont intend to get back into the mess here, but I just felt like saying that.

You wrote this here before.

Sri Galim and Manihara!!!!! Neither of these bastards spent a day in jail. They arent even human beings. In fact -- they arent even animals because animals dont even behave like that. Theyre some kind of demons from hell and they still walk free because they committed their atrocities in an atmosphere that tolerated pieces of shit like them. They were schoolteachers for crying out loud. Schoolteachers!!! But at the time the only thing that was important was bringing in money from smuggling hashish and hash oil so that a palace could be built. Kirtananda supposedly wanted Prabhupada to be the King but in reality he just wanted to be the Queen. You know -- when you subtract love and trust and take Krishna and Prabhupada away from the center of an organization like ISKCON it can rapidly decline into a fascist cult.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]> I dont even see Iskcon taking any measures to protect the children of Iskcon, how is it the lessons are never learned?[br][br]

Theres something called Child Protection Office since several years back.[/quote]

Theres also something called a smokescreen or a paper tiger. It doesnt mean there is real enforcement. The devotee I was referring to had an official decision that said he could not enter ISKCON property or participate in any ISKCON-affiliated activities without fulfilling two primary conditions. Although he completely rejected his recitification plan (and definitely did not fulfill these two conditions), he was subsequently apponted to the position of temple president. Banned and temple president at the same time; just like unrepentant chilld molester and great devotee at the same time. My head feels like exploding when I think of the contradictions ISKCON pushess sometimes. Not surprisingly, he got in trouble in his temple president job too, apparently some sort of financial misappropriation (theft?), though the details were not made public. [br][br]

What is the good of having a CPO if someone who is found guilty of child molestation can receive a royal invitation to a community but the community members are not warned of the devotees background? I was an elected officer of the community, with my wife on the Child Protection Team, and I had to beg the CPO for the results of the appeal. Even then, the appeal decision, though confirming the original finding of the devotees guilt, made two serious errors in his favor and had to be revised in response to objections.[br][br]

Anyway, my point in bringing this case up was that the disciples of BTS were saying that the child molester devotee was faultless based on his friendship with BTS. Is that ISKCONs idea of bona fide? Or, as it directly pertains to this discussion, should Narayana Maharaj be consdiered a pure devotee or something based on Radhanathas admiration, or the other way around? It may also be that neither of them are pure. Maybe it doesnt matter since ISKCONs view is that one must surrender to any rubber stamped "living" devotee posing as pure, rather than the guaranteed-pure Founder Acarya, who is dead. [br][br][br]

[quote]> Well, I dont intend to get back into the mess here, but I just felt like saying that.[br][br]

You wrote this here before.[/quote]

And it was because of just a few devotees, including yourself, that I decided this site was bad for my devotional enthusiasm.[br][br]

But thanks for encouraging me to rejoin the community. And for reminding me why I left.[/sarcasm]

Please dont leave the forum, Pandu das. I cannot be the only one that enjoys your posts.

Pandu das, firstly welcome back, I missed your direct honesty and willingness to share your truthful experiences of what actually does take place in the new world of Iskcon, so many in these forums just use smoke and mirrors to keep their little fragile belief systems from caving in. You have first hand knowledge of how the CPO is a complete farce. This is how Iskcon works it pays lip service to rectifying itself of the worst chapters in history. It fails at even achieving the last pillar of religiosity in Kali Yuga &quot;Truthfulness&quot; any faith I had in Iskcon vanished many years ago. The Iskcon caravan is without its driver...the founder...and the wheels fell off a long time ago.

Narayana Maharaj probably has zero knowledge of these issues, if an Iskcon Sanyassi and in some cases a wolf in sheeps clothing appears in his Math, he is not to know. NM is in the mood of extending the hand of help and pushing Lord Chaitanyas mission forward which is synonymous with Srila Prabhupadas mission. This year NM will be 89 years old, it wont be too much longer before he is totally in-accessible as B.R. Sridhar Maharaja was before his departure and Srila Prabhupada.

Look at some of the obvious wretches that came to Srila Prabhupada...he did not reject them...he offered them a way out of hell...some took it and some did not...that is the same with Narayana Maharaja. It is up to the individual jiva to surrender.

However if I had one shred of evidence against any of these vile creatures that dress in monks robes I wouldnt hesitate I would present it to the police, get them locked up. Iskcon will do nothing so its time to take proper action.

Yes, Pandu das prabhu, you must remain and continue with your inputs. You must not stop
or leave the forum because of a person or persons fear the TRUTH.

Who is this Veda guy anyway? Where did he get the name Veda? Hes all over the place posing as some great scholar.

Mr Veda: Why dont you take a rest? Sit on the bench for a few innings and chill out. Try to listen and learn before you jump all over each and every topic that is brought up? Youve already impressed us all with how clever and knowledgeable you are. Now you can impress everyone with how restrained and tolerant you can be by kicking back and letting others answer whatever questions arise.

Paul, if you had some evidence in your hands and didnt complain to GBC and in case of their inaction to the police, youre one of those vain critics I mentioned above.

> And it was because of just a few devotees, including yourself, that I decided this site was bad for my devotional enthusiasm.

No, you left disgusted that you got no approval for your ritvikism.

for sg and mung: Earlier Paul rejected his diksa guru and thus his name Pandu das here.

> But thanks for encouraging me to rejoin the community. And for reminding me why I left.[/sarcasm]

Seems youre rather encouraged by the recent appearance of some persons who agree with you. That may defeat the purpose of this site though.

> Who is this Veda guy anyway? Where did he get the name Veda?

We can ask the same about you. Some devotees here know me personally (ccd, deena and possibly others) but no one knows you.

> Hes all over the place posing as some great scholar.

> letting others answer whatever questions arise.

You can do it too. If your answers are useful to others, youll see from karma points under them.
Theres no rule here that only one answer is allowed.

[quote][cite] portnoy:[/cite]Who is this Veda guy anyway? Where did he get the name Veda? Hes all over the place posing as some great scholar.

Mr Veda: Why dont you take a rest? Sit on the bench for a few innings and chill out. Try to listen and learn before you jump all over each and every topic that is brought up? Youve already impressed us all with how clever and knowledgeable you are. Now you can impress everyone with how restrained and tolerant you can be by kicking back and letting others answer whatever questions arise.[/quote]

ad hominem attacks are not allowed here, Portnoy. Admins here value input from any and all vaishnava that follows the simple rules of etiquette. And you did breach them with your comment above. Please, be tolerant with other'b4s points of view and continue to contribute to this forum in that spirit. Thank you.

Actually we welcome some genuine vaisnava discipline and sweet culture .....unfortunately many of these sadhus whom have left the shelter of Srila Prabhupadas legacy.....ISKCON....for what ever reason attack genuine devotees like Veda Prabhu because he is a sincere devotee.But that is the nature of srila Prabhupadas demons and devotee preaching strategy.Unfortunately it appears as though some of the devatas would rather become demons again.......rather than displaying the natural quality of a vaisnava of a forgiving spirit they only see the fault!Thus they posses the qualities of a resident of hell which srila Prabhupada called anaraki.....A Transcendental Diary volume 1
By Hari Sauri Das
Page 145
December 21st 1975
Prabhupada explained that one is understood to be asura or devata according to which path they are following-pravritti or nivritti. loke vyavyamisa-madya seva nitya hi jantor. every living entity hasgot this tendency. Vyavaya means sex life;amisa meat eating; and madya, liquor.Natural tendency. Therefore the counrty where these things are indulged in without any restriction, that is asura. This is especially in western countries, and now we have it also learned in india. Either hindus or musselman, drinking was a sin; now we have got very easily available liquor every door there is a shop, and every door there is a meat shop. So india,there was a time that they were all devatas; now we are imitating the asuras. On the other hand, the boys and girls from the asuric countries, they are becoming devotees,devata. So there is no exclusive right for a country to become a devata or demon. A demon can be turned into the devata and the devata can be turned into a demon provided he follows this pravritti and nivrtti.....Why such personal attacks on such a genuine devotee such as Veda prabhu!......take all your problems to your court system in america.....otherwise just more mode of ignorance excuses not to surrender to the local authorithy.If you are really sincere shift to another temple and start again!

During his walk srila Prabhupada told us how,according to chanakya pandit ,true beauty can be understood.Man with education is compared with the kokila .The bird,is very black,but his sound sweet,so sweet,everyone likes.Kokilanam svaro rupam vidya-rupam kurupanam nari-rupam pati-vratah.A womans beauty is how she is chaste and devoted to the husband.That is beauty,not personal beauty.Education is beauty for the brain .And those who are saintly person ,they should be simply forgiving.That is their beauty!Page 411...A transcendental dairy by hari sauri das

Actually bhakta paul also known previously as Pandu das was offensive to his own diksa guru.....rejected him but wants to use the devotional name.Such offensive behaviour is indicative of the kanistha....ritvikmentallity......which his divine grace Srila Prabhupada vanquishs with his statements contained within this conversation.
Lastly he replied to a letter from Tutsa Krsna Swami in New Zealand. Tutsa Krsna Maharaja belongs to a group of devotees who split away from ISKCON seeveral years ago. They disagreed with certain methods of book distribution and the managerial structure within ISKCON. The leader of this group have their own ideas about spreading Krsna consciousness, Tutsa Krsna Maharaja writes to Srila Prabhuapda regularly. Tutsa Krsna had previously recommended various people for initiation, but before accepting them wanted to know if Tutsa krsna Maharaja himself was following.
Tutsa Krsna"s letter letter contained positive confirmation, and Prabhupada wrote back, "every student is expected to become acarya. Acarya means one who knows the scriptural injuctions and follows them practically in life and teaches them to his disciples. I have given you sannyasa with the great hope that in my absence you will preach the cult throughout the world and thus become recognized by Krsna as the most sincere servant of the Lord. So I am pleased you have not deviated from the principles I have taught, and thus, with power of attorney go on preaching Krsna consciousness. That will make me very happy as it is confirmed in the Guru_astaka: yasya prasadat bhagavat-prassadah. Just by satisfying your spiritual master, who is accepted as the bonafide representative of the Lord, you satisfy Krsna immediately without any doubt. Prabhupada also alluded to Tutsa Krsnas independent mentality, carefully encouraging him to keep him close.
"Keep trained very rigidly, and then you are bona fide guru, and you can accept disciples on the same principle. But as a matter of etiquette it is the custom that during the lifetime of your spitirual master you bring the prospective disciples to him, and in his absence or disapperance you can accept disciples without any limitation.
This is the law of disciplic successsion. I want to see my disciples become bona fide spirtual master and spread Krsna consciousness very widely; that will make me and Krsna very happy." He ended each letter with "I hope this finds you well" and epithet "Your ever well-wisher, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami.".......taken from page 38 A Transcedental Diary by Hauri Sauri Das

Pandu das has an articulate gentle style that provides a very unique viewpoint, which gives balance to the yes-men-the party-men and the enraged ex-devotees present on this forum.

Yes veda prabhu ...i do understand your valid piont and sound reasoning.However these inexperienced blasphemers should first attempt to fly!They cannot appreciate collecting literally millions of dollars for srila Prabhupada,like guru-kripa swami did during his wonderful earlier years!
They are submerged within their mode of ignorance and merely vomit forth putrid envious pioson.Unable to even go and submit to a ISKCON authority they simply dwell on the mental platform.Hence they are unable to progress in their spiritual lives.
Srila Prabhupada deliniates how we should act.....he was dealing with his own envious godbrothers.Page 279...A Transcendental diary...january 19 1976.
Srila Prabhupada felt the problems were due to a lack of understanding of proper Vaisnava dealings.
What bothers me is their dictating mood.Why they should dictate?First of all let them become like me.Equality brings freindship.Who ever is older he will dictate;and whoever is younger,he will respect the superior.This is the rule.Neither they are equal nor senior,then why they should dictate?Who is superior,he will dictate;and who is equal,he should live like freind;and who is junior,they should follow and obey.This is the Vaisnava rule.Those who are neither equal nor higher,now they can dictate?That is a mistake.Either,first of all become higher than him,then dictate;or become equal with him,then you suggest.You are lower,and you want to dictate.What is this nonsense?.....
Simply put kula pavanna you have no status to try and use your frog in the wellmentality to cast aspirtions against senior devotees.Who was so totally surrendered to our founder Archarya.Have you paid for a Krishna- balarama temple like guru-kripa das?........Has srila Prabhupada personally pulled you aside to travel with him,then told you that he and krishna have built a house in the spiritual sky especially for you?Like Srila Prabhupada told gurukripa when they travelled together in new Zealand?Since you are not his equal why must we listen ....we do not,You are lower......you do not have the agnata-sukriti to even cast insidious innuendos like you attempt to do!

Go and submit to an ISKCON authority. How can I respond to an idiot who makes a statement like that?
Will somebody put a muzzle on this jackass!

Is there any possibility that Veda and sri-govinda-das could possibly refrain from commenting for a few weeks? They both bully into each and every thread with their know-it-all repetitive rhetoric and ruin the entire atmosphere for any and all free thinking intelligent people who might want to come aboard. They are the reason that this site never really grows. It just remains stagnant with the same handful of regulars. Its always Veda, sri-govinda-das, Veda, sri-govinda-das ... over and over and over again. Now and then somebody will try to join in but eventually grow so tired of these two morons nipping at everybodys heels that they go away. They are like two little kids with nothing else to do but show off to the rotating crowd of three or four who gather out of curiosity and perhaps a sincere desire for dialogue.

Why dont you two just cool it for a few weeks or a month. Go do something else for awhile. Get a job or take a vacation. Unplug your computers. Spend time with your families. Distribute books. Strap on a tool belt and pick up a hammer and make some noise thats constructive. Is that too much to ask? Pretty please?????

Funny what you find in google, and how appropriately it fits into this forum.

"One of the most widely misused terms on the Net is "ad hominem". It is most often introduced into a discussion by certain delicate types, delicate of personality and mind, whenever their opponents resort to a bit of sarcasm. As soon as the suspicion of an insult appears, they summon the angels of ad hominem to smite down their foes, before ascending to argument heaven in a blaze of sanctimonious glory. They may not have much up top, but by God, they dont need it when theyve got ad hominem on their side. Its the secret weapon that delivers them from any argument unscathed."

LMHO

[quote][cite] manasi_seva:[/cite]Funny what you find in google, and how appropriately it fits into this forum.

"One of the most widely misused terms on the Net is "ad hominem". It is most often introduced into a discussion by certain delicate types, delicate of personality and mind, whenever their opponents resort to a bit of sarcasm. As soon as the suspicion of an insult appears, they summon the angels of ad hominem to smite down their foes, before ascending to argument heaven in a blaze of sanctimonious glory. They may not have much up top, but by God, they dont need it when theyve got ad hominem on their side. Its the secret weapon that delivers them from any argument unscathed."

LMHO[/quote]

you call all those insults "a bit of sarcasm". We call it breaching the forum rules as delineated. You can have or not the reason, you can be a yes-men or not, but you can'b4t break our rules and stay here.
sri govinda das, please do not post 3 or 4 times in a row, that is spam.
Our suggestion is that you put forward your arguments and let the readers use their own intelligence. Nothing more, nothing less. Thank you.

portnoy, Im pleased to get on your bad guys list as per the "Tell me who your opponent is and Ill tell you who you are" maxim.

Very fitting quote: http://www.quotedb.com/quotes/1738

The problem with putting pedofiles in jail is that they are not cured. The current reality is that nearly all pedofiles re-offend after they get out. Now they have lists of sex offenders posted all over the place, so that parents can see where the government has fixed them up in housing close to schools, etc. There is little chance anyone in ISKCON is going to post a list of known sex offenders! As mentioned above, the CPS is a smoke screen scam invented to create more jobs. I have visited many current day ISKCON temples and see child abuse [and others] in many forms happening, even during the Sunday Feast, when the Society is on display to the public. As a matter of fact, I know from my own research into child abuse that some of the local CPS people are abusers in disguise. The reason so many re-offending criminals are on the street is due to the false bodily concept of only having one life. Better that murderers, rapists and pedofiles get the death sentence within a few months of conviction. And, if they are found in a spiritual organization, they must be dragged out, beaten senseless and left on the pavement! Such individuals are easy to recognize when they try to get back in at a different location.

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Shrila Prabhupad warned about demons and mundane people getting into ISKCON and messing things up. His solution was that they were not allowed to get in or take any responsible position. Unfortunately, as the historical record shows, demonic and mundane people "are still in positions of public trust". The problem now is that many of them have disciples, along with the support and protection of the GBC. One of the most striking weaknesses of ISKCON is the complete lack of functioning judicial and justice departments. Many religious organization around the world, such as the Catholic Church, ISLAM, Baptists, etc.,have judicial and justice branches, where crimes or offenses are clearly defined with procedures to keep the organization as pure as possible. In ISKCON both judicial and justice functions are carried out by the "inner circle", which leaves the plaintiff with no recourse in justice.

Not much can be done now to "purify" ISKCON because the gates remain wide open for anyone to come in who wins the favor of a leader. The standards of admission have decayed to the point where the society is incapable of protecting or purifying itself. Sad to say, ISKCON is deep into the process of spiritual death and rebirth as a mundane religious institution.

My suggestion to anyone in ISKCON who is able to see the spreading corruption that has become institutionalized, is that they get out as soon as possible. Once out, the mind clears up, the offenses of the leaders and blind followers are no longer passed around by association, and one can take measures to make sure their children are not exposed to the CPS people and their administrative smoke and mirror tricks. One also gets free of the endless contentious debate that never seems to be resolved, because, to resolve such debate, would mean that droves of corrupt leaders would have to voluntarily abdicate their comfortable positions.

Of course, there may be many who do not like to hear any criticism of ISKCON! When that happens, a big problem appears as this. How can ISKCON be above criticism when the historical record is rife with child and woman abuse, misuse of public money, disobedience of core teachings of the Founder Acharya, and, above all, a deeply rooted resentment of all criticism coupled with an equal determination to refuse any and all good advice? In terms of modern day management, law and psychology, ISKCON is deeply dysfunctional, resistive to reformation and headed down the same path as so many other religious institutions that eventually became ineffectual.

What is the purpose of endless debate about CPS, the purity of this Guru or that, GBC, past history, etc., when there is no structured venue for the redress of grievances? Actually, what is the use of Pariprashnena [Powered by ISKCON Tech] in these matters, other than a forum for the disgruntled to blow steam off and practice the latest "posture"? Do the GBC, Gurus and Temple Presidents read here to see what "the people" think? I dont think so. Better this forum keep to answering simple questions than attempt to resolve issues that the leaders have no intention of ever resolving.

However, let the historical record be repeated yet again and again.........[now in its 33rd year since his departure]............so many forums will continue to engage in debate that cannot be resolved by the participants within the organization, or those outside who have a "thing" with the organization.

At some point, some will wake up and get out, and that is where the movement spreads.

[quote][cite] karapurnam:[/cite]
What is the purpose of endless debate about CPS, the purity of this Guru or that, GBC, past history, etc., when there is no structured venue for the redress of grievances? Actually, what is the use of Pariprashnena [Powered by ISKCON Tech] in these matters, other than a forum for the disgruntled to blow steam off and practice the latest "posture"? Do the GBC, Gurus and Temple Presidents read here to see what "the people" think? I dont think so. Better this forum keep to answering simple questions than attempt to resolve issues that the leaders have no intention of ever resolving.
[/quote]

I disagree that such forums serve only to blow off steam. Many people who read or particpate in these debates actually learn something valuable from them. It is all about real life versus idealistic and theoretical view of Gaudiya Vaishnavism and devotional life. Many devotees change their views and become more mature in their understanding thanks to such discussions. ---------------------Yes, there is no structured venue for the redress of grievances in Iskcon when such grievances relate to the GBCs performance. In the past devotees could appeal directly to Srila Prabhupada. Today, unless you are already a GBC, the GBC is totally beyond reproach. They only change when they want to change. Good old Boys Club... that is what it boils down to.

And, after learning something, such as, "Yes, there is no structured venue for the redress of grievances in Iskcon when such grievances relate to the GBCs performance. Today, unless you are already a GBC, the GBC is totally beyond reproach. They only change when they want to change. Good old Boys Club... that is what it boils down to," what does one do then?

[1] Stay in ISKCON, close the eyes, swallow the party line, choke silently in the dark, get a position and become one of them.
[2] Spend years and years in debate, trying to make change, and stay with it even though nothing changes to finally become one of them.
[3] Get tired of choking,open the eyes, leave, breath fresh air and eat palatable dishes that digest easily.

Maturity in devotional service means to abandon the association of the demonic and mundane in the guise of Vaishnavas after sufficient attempts to remove or reform them have failed. Many people think thousands of Shrila Prabhupadas disciples were driven out, when, in fact, they left voluntarily, in order to have the freedom to keep their eyes open and avoid choking on the party line.

If such forums are meant to educate, then their success would be measured in counting how many wake up and leave.

Ive yet to find another forum like this. It is fantastic to have all these different viewpoints actively discussing relevant topics.

It is a great place for people isolated from ISKCON for whatever reason to see that youre not alone and give a live responsive demo of the Isconites, lest we forget. There is also always the possibility that it may open someones eyes, however small.

I think it is a great pity that there is such crude animosity between some users that they resort to name calling and repetitious sarcasm, Id much rather see some sastric philosophy, strong logic and dry wit.

SGD is amazing at bringing this out in some people and I really think he deserves some respect for the ceaseless effort he repeatedly makes, post after his own post.

Oh please mung dont encourage SGD he is already burying us under an avalanche of quotes from the Transcendental Dairy...I mean Diary..which the Admin further up referred to as spamming the forum.

>>Karapurnam: "The problem with putting pedofiles in jail is that they are not cured...Better that murderers, rapists and pedophiles get the death sentence within a few months of conviction. And, if they are found in a spiritual organization, they must be dragged out, beaten senseless and left on the pavement! Such individuals are easy to recognize when they try to get back in at a different location."

So you are suggesting one rule for murderers, rapists and pedophiles not in a spiritual organisation (death) and for those ones that dress in spiritual robes get to walk free with a senseless beating? See how even you keep supporting the worst kind that pretend to be spiritual! and how does a beating stop someone from re-offending? Also how are such individuals recognised if they try and get back in at a different location? especially when Iskcon has no policy or database to warn other locations and the CPO is a complete sham?

Nothing anyone can do will ever fully stop it, laws, legislation, hired security, nothing. Just as laws and punishment in the Karmi world doesnt stop crime, but if the laws are never applied the crime rate would be out of control and no one would be safe. Thats Iskcons position they never apply any of their laws to the vile creatures dressed in robes, even with evidence and proof and thats why no child will ever be safe in Iskcon.

mung - Ive yet to find another forum like this. It is fantastic to have all these different viewpoints actively discussing relevant topics. It is a great place for people isolated from ISKCON for whatever reason to see that youre not alone and give a live responsive demo of the Isconites, lest we forget. There is also always the possibility that it may open someones eyes, however small.

True, different moods and levels of maturity being displayed. There is indeed much that one can learn from their dirverse
viewpoints and experiences in Krsna Consciousness.

I just read that I am an inexperienced blasphemer. That does it -- Im going to print up business cards with that title. "Hello -- my name is Portnoy and Im an inexperienced blasphemer. Someday I hope to be an experienced blasphemer but for now Im in training. In fact -- I am what is referred to as a BIT, or a Blasphemer In Training. If you need somebody to do any blaspheming for you please call upon me. Here, take my card."

sri-govinda-das has called me an inexperienced blasphemer. This is great. I havent had this much fun in years.

So am I to understand that my personal attacks on a few of the idiots who dominate the space here is against the rules? Sue me! Ban me! Do what the hell you want. As far as Im concerned -- unless and until this guy sri-govinda-das is thrown out of here this website can serve no beneficial purpose. The idea is for people to come and ask questions and get answers? Whats the use if whoever comes here and whatever question they ask they receive an avalanche of posts from our ISKCON poster boy telling them to go surrender to their nearest ISKCON authority, find an elected guru, become a front line experienced preacher like himself and anybody who says different is a blasphemer? As long as that is the predominating mood here (which it is and has been for quite some time) --- Ill do anything I can to disrupt this farce and call a spade a spade, an idiot an idiot and bullshit bullshit.

One of the very first posts I read on this forum was in a thread denouncing Sriman Rocana das Adhikary and his Sampradaya Sun website .. and who was leading the attack? Ill give you three guesses. So its quite alright for the regulars here to insult people who arent even here to defend themselves but if one of them is insulted then the rules have been breached.

You want to make a fair rule? How about principles before personalities? That means that philosophy can be discussed, principles (not just the four regulative -- but different ideas, interpretations and approaches) can be debated --- but nobody denounces in any way another person -- or they dont even mention another person unless it is in reference to something totally innocuous and neutral. That way there will be no double standards. Im not just talking about naming names. An example of what shouldnt be tolerated would be something like, "..... and those who question the ISKCON authorities or say that ISKCON gurus are falling or fallen are envious blasphemers ....." In other words --- ban the fire and brimstone party politics and ISKCON apologists. Ban the accusations of aparadha just because somebody is brave and intelligent enough to realize that not all is kosher in ISKCON. In fact -- ban any and all discussion about ISKCON and just keep it limited to the teachings -- the philosophy -- the books -- of His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada. Define the parameters boldly and enforce them fairly. Then maybe you can clean up this mess of a website.

> Id much rather see some sastric philosophy, strong logic and dry wit.

There were quite some useful exchanges in the past here.
Recently there seems to be little interest in that since focus switched to politics.
In that context Canakya Niti is relevant. Try it out.

> but nobody denounces in any way another person

Why do you suggest a rule you dont follow yourself? Is it only meant for others?
You cant even keep your word that youre out of here.

> just keep it limited to the teachings -- the philosophy -- the books -- of His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada. Define the parameters boldly and enforce them fairly. Then maybe you can clean up this mess of a website.

The title of the site already suggests it and most of the participants in the last 2,5 years understood it without problems. Only recently appeared here a few who didnt and want to turn this forum into another ISKCON politics forums. But why? They already exist, with much larger followings. This site was meant to be different. If someone doesnt like it why not join those criticism forums or start another forum, blog or a mission to vent ones opinions not in line with local TOS: http://www.pariprashnena.com/discussion/48/from-the-admin/
Many already do it so you can too. Free speech was never so easy. It may not be enough to change things in ISKCON from outside though. Many wise people worldwide know that every lasting change for the better must start with changing oneself.

[quote][cite] karapurnam:[/cite]And, after learning something, such as, "Yes, there is no structured venue for the redress of grievances in Iskcon when such grievances relate to the GBCs performance. Today, unless you are already a GBC, the GBC is totally beyond reproach. They only change when they want to change. Good old Boys Club... that is what it boils down to," what does one do then?
[/quote]

What do you do? You keep on hearing, chanting, remembering Vishnu, and all the rest of devotional processes. ----- And you avoid getting mixed up with crooks, liars, cheaters. Simple.

Actually for all those whom are under some illusion that Narayanna maharaja actually represents our Param Guru AC Bhaktivedanta swami Prabhupada ....and in some way is a confidential servant of his divine grace....why is it he is unable to understand laxsmi collection as a transcendental service....and not as a mundane activity.Srila Prabhupada was adept at utilising everything in krishnas service.He saw these buildings and wealth as opportunities to serve his guru by re-uniting laxmi and Narayanna.As can be shown by this pastime....Moving from his room ,Srila Prabhupada climbed up stairs out on to the roof,picking up a small entourage on the way.As he walked around ,glancing over to the new building site,he explained that our concern about money was not ordinary.He expanded this piont with a very nice metaphor.He explained that his mission was to unite laxsmi, the godess of fortune with Narayanna.In other words,the demoniac want to enjoy the property of god without god,or Sita without Rama.Just as Hanuman had worked to release Sita from Ravannas hands,Prabhupada said he was working for the same purpose.We are not satisfied that Rama should remain alone and Sita should be under the custody of Ravana.I dont want,he said Sita must be released from the custody of Ravana.With opulence it means we are bringing Sita nearer , nearer,nearer.That is wanted.Otherwise for a sannyasi,what is the use of these big buildings?No .We want these buildings for service of Rama.......page 391..A transcendental diary,febuary 28th 1976.

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]Actually for all those whom are under some illusion that Narayanna maharaja actually represents our Param Guru AC Bhaktivedanta swami Prabhupada ....and in some way is a confidential servant of his divine grace....why is it he is unable to understand laxsmi collection as a transcendental service....and not as a mundane activity.Srila Prabhupada was adept at utilising everything in krishnas service.He saw these buildings and wealth as opportunities to serve his guru by re-uniting laxmi and Narayanna.As can be shown by this pastime....Moving from his room ,Srila Prabhupada climbed up stairs out on to the roof,picking up a small entourage on the way.As he walked around ,glancing over to the new building site,he explained that our concern about money was not ordinary.He expanded this piont with a very nice metaphor.He explained that his mission was to unite laxsmi, the godess of fortune with Narayanna.In other words,the demoniac want to enjoy the property of god without god,or Sita without Rama.Just as Hanuman had worked to release Sita from Ravannas hands,Prabhupada said he was working for the same purpose.We are not satisfied that Rama should remain alone and Sita should be under the custody of Ravana.I dont want,he said Sita must be released from the custody of Ravana.With opulence it means we are bringing Sita nearer , nearer,nearer.That is wanted.Otherwise for a sannyasi,what is the use of these big buildings?No .We want these buildings for service of Rama.......page 391..A transcendental diary,febuary 28th 1976.[/quote]

If you carefully listen to Narayana Maharaja speaking in that clip youll understand that he is not criticizing the use of money but rather the emphasis of money over and/or instead of bhakti. This is typical of your faulty logic. You do this constantly. You connect dots that arent there, engage in straw man arguments and illogically conclude that if A = B and B = C, then A must equal D.

My best guess is that you never really learned to listen or read properly and rather than absorb and understand what you are reading or hearing your mind is too busy formulating some kind of inappropriate response or comment. As Manasi Seva pointed out -- you jump from one thread to another, one topic to another and take any and every opportunity to broadcast your paid political announcement. It grows tiresome, banal and hackneyed because not only what you say is inane but how you say it is juvenile and bordering on illiterate.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]Paul, if you had some evidence in your hands and didnt complain to GBC and in case of their inaction to the police, youre one of those vain critics I mentioned above.[/quote]

Why are you asking me a question and immediately presuming I dont have an answer? [br][br]

The child molester devotee was invited to our community by three GBC members, so to whom should I have complained? I tried to meet with Radhanatha, who was present at the time, but he apparently wasnt interested because he left while arrangements to meet were supposedly being made. There was some delay because only my wife was allowed to meet with him, but neither she nor I would agree to that condition. (It seemed odd that a sannyasi would not allow a husband to be present and only meet with the wife.) I also took up the matter with the CPO, but the responses were slow and limited. If I recall correctly, by the time I found out the exact conditions that the CPO had allowed, BTS was already deceased and the child molester devotee was gone. The community was trying to bring him back to lead kirtan at the Rathayatra when I brought up the fact that the Official Decision by the previous CPO prohibited it. That was when the devotee admitted that he also had another unrelated restriction, which Ive heard was because of stealing while he was a temple president while he was supposedly banned from ISKCON. [br][br]

As for the police, they had nothing to do with it. The statute of limitations had expired about one or two years prior; and when the crimes were originally reported, the police elected not to pursue it because both the accuser and the accused lived far outside the state where the crimes allegedly occurred. None the less, ISKCON has a right and a duty to uphold higher standards and to protect its children, and so an internal investigation was conducted. The accused was found guilty by judges appointed by the CPO and agreed to by both parties, and he lost his appeal while he was visiting our community. I think that was some time around when the two ISKCON gurus were lavishly glorifying him and comparing him to his namesake from Lord Caitanyas pastimes.
[br][br]
Trying to be respectful, I waited until BTS had departed to inquire from his disciples why he wanted an unrepentant child molester to sing for him while he was dying, and they responded by trying to impeach me from my community board position and shunning me and my family. They secretly contacted my guru and told him who-knows-what, and when he called me he lied about having talked with anyone. He also promised to bring a neutral leader to mediate, but he never did that. I had been journaling everything on my blog, and he ordered me to stop writing, threatening to deny me second initiation. I dont see how these are the activities of a bona fide guru. [br][br]

Later I looked into the guru succession issue and concluded that Srila Prabhupada intended to continue initiating through rtviks, as he had been doing, and havent seen anyone here (or anywhere) present convincing evidence to the contrary. However I have seen a few devotees here try to force their view quite offensively, largely based on their own desires or presumptions, and I dont find that very good or inspiring association. If I decide to stick around here, then I will consider creating a new account using my English name (Paul Howard), but at this point Im not sure if its worth the trouble because Im not especially attracted to all the bickering.

Is the topic here Radhanath and child molestation? Radhanath never molested any kid but for years and years he stood around kissing Kirtananandas ass while my children were being raped in the gurukulas there. I was living in L.A. at the time but my wife decided to move to New Vrindaban because she got it in her head that "Bhaktipada" was a pure devotee. As far as Im concerned Radhanath was guilty of apathy then and hes guilty now of not being honest about his sordid past at New Vrindaban. He whitewashes the whole thing with some bullshit statement like, "as soon as I saw that K Swami was breaking the regulative principles I distanced myself." Bullshit. Why the bullshit? If I can be honest about all my crap then I expect the same for my godbrothers. I joined ISKCON years before Radhanath and I watched him on my radar screen from the start. Hes a nice enough guy but hes a phony baloney. I say put your cards on the table and forget about your reputation as Mr. Wonderful Story Teller Palms Folded Soft Spoken Humble guru. Its an Oscar winning act - thats for sure. Im so disgusted I could puke. There -- I puked. Now I feel much better. Oh -- and lets not even broach the subject of who was behind the murder of Sulocana. I know who they all were. Do you?

Yes Iskcon has become everything they accused the Karmi world of being...even worse. They used to say "Look how the surface of the Karmi world is very polished yet underneath they live like cats and dogs". Which is very true.

With Iskcon its like ... look at how such great devotees and pure souls they are, while underneath lurks its equal opposite...this is what happens when you pretend you create an equal opposite that also grows in power until eventually the Grim Reaper breaks through and does all sorts of outrageous things. (not all devotees, it seems to be the ones that pretend to be so pure and godly aka Sannyasis and Gurus...not all but the numbers seem to be great...and the more outrageous their claims of godliness the worse their Grim Reaper seems to be..just like Kirtananda claiming to be Jesus and the only real acharya)

The difference is the Karmis dont pretend to be godly but Iskcon does thats why its so much worse. We expect to find these things in the material world, the shastra tells us so. But in Chaitanya Mahaprabhus temples? These are surely the greatest sins, done in knowledge. The Karmis commit their sins in complete ignorance, which are not excused.

In the world of duality every belief you have there is an equal opposite fear in the basement of your conciousness. A belief is blind acceptance or the fear that the opposite is true. True realisation is on another level, that is why acharyas cannot be rubber stamped, it causes all sorts of kaos like what we have seen, we are still seeing and will continue to see. If an acharya is not self realised/self effulgent but appointed by a commitee we can see the damage it does. Yet like lemmings they keep appointing them only to what them march off the spiritual cliff time and time again

One quote by Srila B.S. Govinda Maharaj current acharya of of the Sri Chaintanya Saraswath Math, he has a quote

WORDS TO LIVE BY:

"In the battlefield, we are always ready to fight, this is our nature, but Sriman Mahaprabhu showed His nature when He was on the battlefield - always humble. That is the difference... When He went to Prakasananda Saraswatis meeting, He sat in a very ignorable place... Very humble."

Seems that Iskcon has lost this mood along time ago...

http://www.scsmath.com/

In the case of ISKCON -- if you subtract honesty, love, trust, integrity ... and most of all .... the mood, message and instructions of the Founder-Acarya, Srila Prabhupada -- then what youre left with is rabid fanaticism that takes on the ugliest aspects of fascism. Its a razors edge. The slightest slip up can cause great bloodshed.

>> Paul, if you had some evidence in your hands and didnt complain to GBC and in case of their inaction to the police, youre one of those vain critics I mentioned above.

> Why are you asking me a question and immediately presuming I dont have an answer?

See the word if? Moreover, I dont ask any question so I dont presume any answer.

Srila B.S. Govinda Maharaj is not in the Special category that is Self Effugent Acarya.
Although he may be an acarya in the sense we discussed before like some of the Iskcon Gurus ie As good as Acarya.
Ysvt.

[quote][cite] portnoy:[/cite]Hes a nice enough guy but hes a phony baloney. I say put your cards on the table and forget about your reputation as Mr. Wonderful Story Teller Palms Folded Soft Spoken Humble guru. Its an Oscar winning act - thats for sure. [/quote]

Thats the way I see it too. Anybody who was living so close to all the nonsense of NV and could not figure out what was going on, does not deserve to lead others, because he is blind as a mole and thick as a brick. But he was not blind or dumb - he is a typical career entertainer his tribe is famous for.

Bhakta Paul since you have failed to accept the mercy of a vaisnava even after using him for your ulterior motives....You need to get initiated form a guru,whom you can then attempt to follow sincerely.That great soul needs to be connected to one of the four Vaiswnava lines.Hopefully you will then be qualified by his mercy to actually understand the guru-parampara...Since it is a total mystery to you at the moment.
My dear manasi seava which group of devotees are you serving with?Please elaborate to your teams temples and huge preaching activities within the western world or even india.So that we can give credit where credit is due.Or are you merely another dog barking..... as the sublime Iskcon preaching takes us all back to godhead!

Kula Pavana Prabhu -- did you ever spend any time in New Vrindaban? Just curious .. and by the way -- Im sorry for anything insulting I said to you on this forum. Very often my big mouth and ego betray my feeble attempts at being humble. Its an ongoing struggle between my lower and higher selves. Come to think of it -- only a neophyte devotee such as myself can really understand what schizophrenia is about. Both the lower and higher nature are awake and alert and pulling in opposite directions 24/7. The only solution is taking shelter of Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga.

sri-govinda-das ..... whats all this crap about "teams?" I do believe you have taken being a kanishta adhikary to a new level and turned it into an art form. To ask somebody to elaborate to their teams temples and huge preaching activities is surreal. Are you on drugs? Most normal people have enough introspection and self awareness to prevent them from making fools of themselves and saying/writing outrageously ridiculous things. I guess that part of your brain just never developed. Its actually quite amazing and amusing. The problem, of course, is that you think that you are representing the Supreme Personality of Godhead and His bona fide representatives. Its for that reason that I have asked you to remain on the sidelines and refrain from commenting anymore. Besides -- youve had your say over and over and over. We all know what you are about. Theres no need to continue repeating yourself. Thats enough. Take a break for a few months or years -- or go find a different forum. Oh .. and .... GO TEAM!!!!

ND you often seem to read and interpret what is not written, I did not use the words anywhere that Srila B.S. Govinda Maharaj was a self effulgent acharya, I know one thing, someone who cannot even read a short paragraph and get the conclusion right is not in a position to start judging who is self effulgent and who is not. Your posts here are often one liners criticising a few words or connecting dots that dont exist. I am eager to hear your view on the topic itself? Please contribute more enlighten us with your views.

I only quoted Srila B.S. Govinda Maharaj in reference to the correct mood that Sriman Mahaprabhu displayed which is one of humility.

SGD you need to grow up, its not a competition or an extension of ones ego. Just as when Lord Rama Chandras monkey warriors were building the bridge to Lanka by throwing huge boulders into the ocean, a little spider that was throwing a grain of sand into the ocean caught Lord Rama Chandras eye.

You need to learn Sriman Mahaprabhus family is broad and diverse and its about love, devotion and quality not quantity and ego.

Obviously portnoy, you are not part of Srila Prabhupadas Iskcon legacy,having blasphemed the foremost Disciple of Srila Prabhupada,his grace tamala krishna goswami . You are incapable of non-envious devotional sentiment when iskcon is concerned.Like Rocanna das of Sampradaya sun ,you are intent on destroying srila Prabhupadas real preaching legacy.Unfortunately you have realised you are really not essential in the total picture of things!Possibly such persons like manasi seva are also of a similar mindset.....since you both blaspheme srila PrabhupadasIskcon society ,its gurus and even its practical day to day worldwide preaching programs.Since you are in my humble opinion ,averse to srila Prabhupadas devotees and his preaching legacy .What society do you serve day to day ....or even week to week.Which temples are you submissively serving ?Or are you just barking.....barking ....vomiting forth poison!

Where did I even mention Tamals name, you idiot. What the hell are you yakking about now? Show me where I blasphemed Tamal.

As for your questions such as what society do I serve? Who the hell are you to ask me anything? You would have made a great inquisitor during the Spanish Inquisition. You are the kind of person that gives all religion a bad name. You are an ignorant, small-minded, sectarian, foolish, talkative, brainwashed, childish, jackass. Go away and let the adults discuss philosophy here. You have had your say on every single thread to the point of having to be warned by the administrators against spamming. Cant you take a hint? What purpose are you serving by all the static you produce here? Do you think you are saving souls? What is your purpose? You arent capable of participating in any sort of intelligent discussion. All you do is inject your pre-digested announcements into every thread and whenever you get the opportunity you boast about how superior you are because youre on the winning team.

Why dont you give me the name and email address of any of the ISKCON leaders you claim to represent and Ill contact them and send them samplings of the kind of crap you write here and then well see whether they endorse you. My guess is that they will distance themselves from you as not to be embarrassed. Im so sick of seeing your name crop up everywhere on this forum. You are turning people off and turning people away. Go sell sunglasses with your kids and leave us in peace, please.

Sorry to disappiont you prabhu...kalasamvara das,the senior prabhupada disciple and temple president... the leader in new Zealand is actually the one who has chosen to expel Narayanna maharaja devotees who have developed an aversion towards iskcon because they are now seriously envious towards iskcon .Also i am sorry if i got it wrong about you and Tamal krishna goswami.However because you criticise so many senior devotees i failed to discriminate properly between your freinds who do blaspheme iskcon leaders generally!Please accept my most humble obeisances.Vancha kalpa tarubias ca...kripa sindu bieva ca patitanam pavanebhyo vaisnava namo namaha.By the way he is at Auckland temple .Which temple authority do you submit to prabhu!

SGD you have not read Portnoys post very carefully and thoroughly, and you have not understood his post at all, or in fact any of his posts here!

Various Iskcon temples, zones etc have ban policies in place against individuals, other groups (Hari Bols, NMs disciples, SMs disciples the list goes on and on) there is nothing new or surprising there.

But do what Portnoy has asked of you...print out your posts and present them to Kalasamvara Das and see what he thinks of your inane dribble, go on put yourself to the test, if you are so convinced that you have the right angle on devotional spirit. Show him your statements on how you blaspheme the residents of the holy dham.

Especially the one where you quote on how useless all of Srila Prabhupadas god brothers are just show him that one, Ill bet you get the boot up your silly ass for one not following Srila Prabhupadas instruction that he may criticise them but you may not! while simultaneously blaspheming hundreds if not thousands of exalted followers of Sriman Mahaprabhu. What to speak of the rest of your verbal diarrhea.

My humble experience with your Narayanna maharaja followers are that they were all my ex-freinds whom had left ISKCON because the level of surrender demanded was far less in nature!In iskcon they were expected to surrender completelyor pressure was applied on them to shape up or ship out!At least that is what they suggested to me personally was how they infact saw it..So they were happy to just meander along and just take it easy for now within their new environment.!Locally i met old freinds Asta Siddhi das,balarama das and especially sankarshan dasi and sadhu das....close freinds from the old days!
They invited me to meet their sanyasis in kati kati ,which shocked me because it was my old freind Drysta dumya swami,who also had taken a new spiritual name.Whom i had served as a younger devotee ,we shared old times .....we had also surrendered to his Grace Tamala krishna goswami many years ago ,after the departure of Srila AC Bhaktivedanta swami Prabhupada.His diksa and my siksa guru.
I asked him simply....Why have you rejected our srila Prabhupada?Why have you taken reinitiation from another Gaudiya vaishnava when your guru has not fallen down,i asked him?He was shocked and immediately smiled and replied that it was just ....timing!He seemed genuine and very mildly surprised so i did not press him further.
However Balarama das,or bhakta barry as he was known was a far more pragmatic personality ventured forth....he had taken initiation only recently from maha vishnu goswami,after waitng twenty odd years.
He offered this,he.... his guru....maha-vishnu goswami was infact the best of a bad bunch.The best guru aparadha i had heard for a long time.
Signaling to my wife and children to quickly get back into the car lest they become spiritually scared...i quickly smiled sweetly and attempted to live myself after embracing maharaja .
Within our car i explained to my children and wife why we had traveled for several hours and had infact left after five minutes.So i recalled this pastime of Hari sari prabhus....Here in vrindavana,Srila Prabhupadas is especially protective of his vulnerable young disciples,always watching to see that we do not become infected with ideas that will poison our spiritual lives.He strictly forbids us to live outside of the temple,and in the past posed strong opposition to the tendency of some devotees to go off to Radhakund to live with a particular babaji there.He is very much on his gaurd to see that his spiritual children are not beguiled by envious or ambitious spiritualists.....He knows that such persons can easily undemine our faith and cause havoc in our spiritual progress.....These impediments to our spiritual life do not always come from non-gaudiya matha elements.Srila Prabhupada is aware that some of his godbrothers are less than enthusiastic about his acheivements.The natural respect for our spiritual elders weve imbibed from him could result in an unsuspecting fraternisation with members of their maths.This could leave us vulnerable to subtle impurities,derailing our dependency on Srila Prabhupada.So this is something he [Srila Prabhupada] is constantly combating.....from page 92 of a Transcendental diary...by hari sauri das... Now i can appreciate Narayanna maharaja is an ambitious spiritualist who is interested in taking our devotees and hijacking srila Prabhupadas iskcon spiritual legacy.

Why manasi seva is your Narayanna maharaja and other gaudiya gurus braking Vaisnava etiquette and re-initiating devotees who already have been initiated by srila Prabhupada?What sort of thinking is behind this offensive behaviour,can you enlighten us ....from whose direction within your ranks!Why would anyone think of reinitiating our weaker devotees if there guru was in good standing? Please explain to me some other spiritual motivation rather than they are just ambitious spiritualists intent on gaining from iskcons less strick followers?Where has this offensive mentality towards even srila Prabhupadas disciples....that they need to receive re-initiation come from?Please show us some sastric evidence!

[quote][cite] portnoy:[/cite]Kula Pavana Prabhu -- did you ever spend any time in New Vrindaban? Just curious .. and by the way -- Im sorry for anything insulting I said to you on this forum. [/quote]
Yes, I have spent two days there in the late 1980s. I could not wait to get out of that place. I was invited there by Devamrita swami and got a VIP tour including private darshan with K-swami. I felt sorry for all the sincere devotees stuck there but I kept my mouth shut. One scene in particular stands out in my mind: K-swami standing with his attack dog inches away from the Deities in the temple, complete with jogi-Jesus. I thought: these people are brainwashed out of their friggin minds to accept this phoney baloney successor to Prabhupada...
------------------------ Prabhu, you have not offended me at all. No apologies needed. You are a serious, sincere devotee who tries to preserve the legacy of Srila Prabhupada the best you can. My dandavat pranams to all such souls...

SGD I have no knowledge of NH re-initiating any of Srila Prabhupadas direct disciples if you know any please let me know.

N.M. certainly does initiate those devotees that were falsely initiated by some bogus gurus or where the devotee has rejected his spiritual master and no longer has faith. Its not a re-initiation as such, its considered to be their only initiation. A re-initiation implies that the first initiation had some validity.

We are not talking of your opinion...manasi seva,your knowledge,why are the gaudiya math gurus reinitiating srila Prabhupadas direct disciples?Especially Narayanna maharaja,he has repeatedly transgressed our Vaisnava etiquettes.Explain this to us why have these guru re-initiated when our ISKCON gurus have not fallen down!...otherwise we must voice natural concerns that it is merely materially motivated...simply motivated by some profit ....some adoration and distinction as it appears from outside.
Manasi -seva is your stance that iskcon gurus are not bonifide,and that these new devotees need to be saved from going to hell by your superior reinitiation...is this your opinion? avaishnavo padishtena
mantrena nirayam vrajet
punas ca vidhina samyag
grahayed vaishnavad guroh

Hari-bhakti-vilasa 4.144 (Also quoted SB. 11.3.48 Purport)

"One who is initiated into a mantra by a non-Vaisnava must go to hell. Therefore he should again be initiated properly, according to the prescribed method, by a Vaisnava guru." Quoted from Hari-bhakti-vilasa 4.144, Bhakti Sandarbha and SB. 11.3.48 Purport.
Although manasi-seva we may take as much bona fide shiksa from where ever, or we may live in whatever Math, yet there is never need for Srila Prabhupadas disciples to be reinitiated...because it is plainly offensive!Therefore it is incorrect for disciples of Srila AC Bhaktivedanta swami Prabhupada to get RE-initiated, and it is an insult by NARAYANNA MAHARAJA and others to re-initiate them.Because Narayanna maharaja is purposefully re-initiating what can the common ground be based on to preach together?

SGD are you a complete moron? or are just intent that you would have us all believe that?

If you have knowledge of one direct disciple of Srila Prabhupada that has been re-initiated as you call it then tell us? Who is it? I will take it that you do not know any Srila Prabhupada direct disciple who has taken re-initiation, otherwise you would have quoted his name...so you are the one that is offering your stupid opinions!

If I say I have no knowledge of it it means I have never seen or heard of him doing that. But if you know of someone...enlighten us, please!

The only thing you are doing is blaspheming someone that you have never met and have no knowledge about so you are blaspheming on pure speculation not very wise!

>>"One who is initiated into a mantra by a non-Vaisnava must go to hell. Therefore he should again be initiated properly, according to the prescribed method, by a Vaisnava guru." Quoted from Hari-bhakti-vilasa 4.144, Bhakti Sandarbha and SB. 11.3.48 Purport.

There you have it, it says "INITIATED PROPERLY" its doesnt say "RE-INITIATED" The word "PROPERLY" would imply the first initiation was bogus and has no meaning. Why is it you dont even understand the words that you yourself type in? Do you have a mental problem?

My understanding SGD is that you were initiated by Charles Baccus the Homo-Pedophile...correct? well he would certainly qualify as a non-vaisnava as he was most certainly committing non-vaisnava activities (he admitted it) at the time, he even dis-obeyed the Iskcon GBC as they forbid him to initiate while he was under suspension (what a joke a guru on suspension...means hes not a gurus bootlace) He continued to offer fake initiations to people until the GBC kicked him out of Iskcon...then proceeded to worm his way back in. This type of personality aptly fits the verse you quoted!

How about these names manasi-seva....Drista dumya maharaja ..a Srila Prabhupada disciple,Balarama das from Auckland formerly a Maha-vishnu disciple .Narayanna das formerly a Prabhupada disciple....all whose gurus were not fallen! to name a few from our local environment...but i could literally name dozens with some time!So could you please explain their mentality and purpose forsuch behaviour because on my trips to west bengal it seems they simply use it to take control of western neophyte devotees!

I know Drista Dumya Maharaja personally, seems he hasnt changed his name which often comes with an initiation, I think he is simply taking Siksha from NM, Balaram Das formerly a Maha-Vishnu disciple means he is not a Prabupada Disciple. Narayan Das..I am not aware of.

It is not my position to explain N.M. If N.M. deepens ones appreciation for Srila Prabhupada and Krishna then his association is a good thing, but remaining at the Kindergarten level like yourself is not good for anyone, not good for you who vomits inane dribble and blaspheme into these forums and not good for those poor unsuspecting souls that you vomit into their ears.

I am personally not aware of any Srila Prabhupada disciples that have gone through a name change etc, I would be surprised if that is true, most information coming from you SGD is very shoddy to say the least, you never really respond to questions put to you in these forums and you never read the posts very deeply, so one would have say that your authenticity is very doubtful to say the least.

However there is nothing that you can say that would in the least bit interest me in Iskcon or its bogus guru system or the huge buildings that it intends to waste its money on in Mayapur (one of the poorest areas in India). Iskcon is a train wreck that even after smashing into countless issues like child molestation and homo-sexual activity it continues on at full speed un-abated and has never addressed its issues and bad ways. The next stop is the cliff...no one is pushing Iskcon in that direction other than Iskcon itself.

Jaya Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja.

> I am personally not aware of any Srila Prabhupada disciples that have gone through a name change etc, I would be surprised if that is true

Jadurani dd >> Shyamarani dd

> to waste its money on Mayapur (one of the poorest areas in India)

Nothing more needs to be said.

Please accept my genuine and heart felt thanks Veda prabhu,as usual you manifest radharanis shakti by vanquishing her enemies and making it clear as day how to please our previous archaryas.Bless me prabhu so one day also i can be so effective and illuminating with so few words.Hare krishna ....your servant.

VEDA you are so quick to post and quote sometimes you forget to actually read the post as we have seen before, the last time was so embarrassing for you that you could not humbly admit that you not only completely misread the post, you read the opposite meaning LMHO! Then you started to back-wheel and mince your words to cover your silly nonsensical response. That has puffed up ego written all over it.

As I said we are talking about Srila Prabupada Disciples that have been name changed and given first initiation again where are they?

In your first link this is about accepting and rejecting a spiritual master, not really what I was asking..

The second link is about the subject but again does not mention any names? Someone here does mention Bhagavan disciples that were given initiation in GM. Bhagavan had left Iskcon he was the man that thought it was Godliness to have a gold drinking goblet and a gold toilet seat. He obviously did not read the teachings of Lord Chaitanya and he was obviously completely bogus! The people that woke up and realised as such went off to find someone who could at least follow the Vaisnava Principles.

We are talking about Srila Prabhupada disciples, again read the post and then read the posts you are submitting...please get with the program it isnt that difficult.

If you are going take time and the trouble to post here, then take the time to check what you are posting

SGD glorifies VEDA ... this forum really is a complete joke! There really is nothing more to be said!

I didnt misread anything. My reply was a bit ambiguous (that SP could be superficially called sectarian since he didnt like his disciples going for outside siksa). It was your misunderstanding.
I simply linked to previous related discussions.
You wanted an example, I gave you Jadurani dd. Your comment?
Your comment about wasting money on Mayapur is revealing your mindset and needs no comments.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]You wanted an example, I gave you Jadurani dd. Your comment?
[/quote]

Receiving a name is NOT the same as taking initiation.

If accepting a new name is the same thing as accepting a mantra, and if taking a new name automatically means rejecting the guru, then Srila Prabhupada also rejected HIS guru!

Srila Prabhupada received the name "Abhay Caranaravinda das" from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur.

But later, his godbrother Saranga Maharaja gave him the name "Bhaktisiddhanta das" -- and the BBT archives has copies of material he signed with that name. Does this mean that Srila Prabhupada took re-initiation and rejected his guru?

When other godbrothers objected to the "Bhaktisiddhanta" name, and he took the name "Bhaktivedanta" at the urging of Sridhar Maharaja and Kesava Maharaja, was Srila Prabhupada then rejecting both Srila Bhaktisiddhanta and Saranga Maharaja? NO!

If Syamaranis new name is proof that she is "reinitiated", then Srila Prabhupada, too, accepted reinitiation.

What I typed was "the huge buildings that it intends to waste its money on in Mayapur" what you quoted was "to waste its money on Mayapur" funny how those quotes have different meanings.

Yes in your second post you quote a name but who is she, what zone is she from, do you really know her or is this a second hand story that you heard about? If you do know her did you ask her why? Was it only her name that was changed or was there an initiation ceremony or both and if so for what reason? It is important to know the individual circumstances of why it happened and exactly what did happen, not just to throw a name up.

If its true I am surprised, but I am not put off by it, as is quoted in the links that you put forth yourself, there are several references in the C.C. where this happened before. When we look into Srila Prabhupadas books especially C.C we can see a deeper range of complex spiritual relationships and issues and how they were dealt with.

In the west we are so used to having one father and one mother but in India and they are used to having so many fathers and mothers and gurus. Iskcon is still struggling with the concept of having a diksha guru and possibly having a different or another shiksha guru. Although they agree with this in principle they often struggle with its application.

Tattva Das, PAMHO and thank you for bringing some impartial straight forward facts and illumination into a dark and dusty forum...

Tattva das:

Nama is one item of pancasamskara as per the famous article Pancasamskara by Bhaktivinod Thakur.

If Srila Prabhupada at one time used such nickname, then he changed his mind since he apparently disapproved them later: http://www.harekrsna.org/gbc/themes/Jadurani_REFUTATION_Syamarani.htm

Bhaktivedanta was a title, not a diksa name.

manasi_seva:

Huge buildings dont change the meaning. Yogapith was also considered a huge building.

VEDA excuse me but where did you learn English on a weeties packet?

"the huge buildings that it intends to waste its money on in Mayapur" vs your quote "to waste its money on Mayapur" has a very different meaning! You cannot see that and you are quoting Shastra? The mere fact that the only difference you see is "huge buildings" proves you either dont read carefully or your level of comprehension is not that good or maybe English is your second language?

It is pointless having a text based discussion with someone who cannot read or comprehend.

Now there is nothing more to be said...

[quote]

Bhaktivedanta was a title, not a diksa name.[/quote]

It seems to be implied that name Bhaktivedanta was given to Srila Prabhupada at the sannyasa ceremony. It is not true. He was the first to have this name and Narayana Maharaja is wrong to suggest that he got it first.

Here is the quote from Gaudya Partika on the Jansi opening: The editor of the local Theosophical Society, Sri Laksminarayan Rajapali, was also present; although he holds different philosophical opinions from Bhaktivedanta Prabhu, he is very sympathetic with this movement.

Prabhupada was holding this name since 1947, when Narayana Maharaja was not even practicing. He specifically said it was a name, not a title, "bhaktivedanta" nam ebe sarthak kor.

Jadurani was not re-initiated. Syamarani is a nickname Narayana Maharaja calls her. Get your facts straight. Hey - its real simple and Manasi Seva already mentioned it. Srila Prabhupada told us that even though he may have spoken some criticism about some of his Gaudiya Math godbrothers (and by the way, Narayana Maharaja is not one of Prabhupadas godbrothers -- he is a god-nephew) -- that we should never do like that. In fact, it once got back to Srila Prabhupada that one of his disciples had said something disrespectful about one of his godbrothers and Prabhupada was very very very VERY angry about the incident and personally apologized for the indiscretion of his immature disciple.

Nobody here is suggesting that you read any of Narayana Maharajas or Sridhara Maharajas books or accept them as siksa gurus or even agree with anything they do or say --- but rather the warning is being given to not use the internet for spouting indiscriminate offensive rhetoric like little mister sgd seems to feel a burning need to do. If you feel that some of Narayana Maharajas people are trying to recruit ISKCON personnel -- then thats an issue for your local ISKCON authorities to deal with properly. Besides, you dont know for sure whether they are acting on the order of Narayana Maharaja -- do you? Discretion is the better part of valor. Fools rush in where wise men dare not tread. Silence is golden especially when every time you open your mouth (mister sgd) you pollute the ether.

manasi_seva, you simply cant admit you can be wrong. Prabhupada wanted a huge temple with planetarium in Mayapur and so to call its building a waste of money shows your attitude toward him. You cant run away from it.

borokrsnadasa, Prabhupada says in SB Intro: "Those who are followers of the Sankara cult are generally known as Vedantists. This does not, however, mean that Vedanta is a monopoly study of the Sankara-sampradaya. Vedanta is studied by all the bona fide sampradayas, but they have their own interpretations. But those in the Sankara-sampradaya are generally known to be ignorant of the knowledge of the Vedantist Vaishnavas. For this reason the Bhaktivedanta title was first offered to the author by the Vaishnavas."

"People are after so-called Vedantists, but they do not know Krsna, so-called Vedantist. But one who is actually Vedantist, he knows Krsna. Therefore sometimes ago some of these Vaisnavas, they gave me this title, Bhaktivedanta. Bhaktivedanta means ultimate understanding of Vedanta is bhakti, not to become impersonalist." (SB lecture 1.1.3, London, August 19, 1971)

"Recognizing Srila Prabhupadas philosophical learning and devotion, the Gaudiya Vaisnava Society honored him in 1947 with the title "Bhaktivedanta"." (Sri Namamrta)

when i was introduced to my old freind Drystadumya maharaja....Balarama das both had new devotional names!Although manasi-seva we may take as much bona fide shiksa from where ever, or we may live in whatever Math, yet there is never need for Srila Prabhupadas disciples and his servants disciples to be reinitiated...because it is plainly offensive!Therefore it is incorrect for disciples of Srila AC Bhaktivedanta swami Prabhupada to get RE-initiated, and it is an insult by NARAYANNA MAHARAJA and others to re-initiate them.One such case that springs to mind is Jadurani dd who accepted the new re-initiated name Shyamarani dd from Narayanna maharaja..Even though her first guru,srila Prabhupada was not fallen! Because Narayanna maharaja is purposefully re-initiating...and is intent on using it as a vehicle to weedle into the iskcon under- belly of troubled ,neophyte devotees to establish a beach head from which he will become benefited in his search for profit ,adoration and distinction!Otherwise why has he initiated such demoniac behaviour....please explain,why the insulting behaviour?

Why place the blame for reinitiation on the guru? Why place the blame on anybody? When someone wants to take a formal initiation from another guru it is their business alone. Our tradition has become ridicoulously guru-centric.

Sorry Kula- pavanna we are iskconites.....life after life we will follow srila Bhaktivedanta swami Prabhupada and his preaching mission and flavour....not some pretender who attempts to twist our gurus legacy and then trys to usurp his position........Narayana Maharaja Mathura, October 24, 1999: "We can glorify Swamiji, Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja. But those who are falling down, how can they glorify him? They cannot glorify him, never; they are cutting. They are establishing that he was the founder of ISKCON, but I know that he was not founder, he was one of the members of this in guru parampara. It was founded by Krishna, and first acarya was Brahma, then Narada, then Vyasa. Only he has changed the name and he has preached these things in Western countries.. So now all has been revealed...it is out in the open!I was infact right!
Ever since jadurani devi dasis re-initiation and reincarnation as the anti-iskcon ....shyamarani i was of the opinion that a certain rotteness had set in..... as Plato was prone to comment when one is ambitious for position!
Now we have the sur-real situation of a direct Prabhupada disciple in the form of jadurani devi dasi submissively,conciously working with the anti-iskcon Narayanna maharaja!Now Narayanna maharaja is no longer the chaste follower of our Srila Prabhupada ....he openly wants his position and his society to boot!...this is further directly declared by himself personally ...... Narayana Maharaja Murwillumbah, Australia: Feb. 18, 2002 (eve): "Your Prabhupada, Srila Swami Maharaja, only changed the name into English. He is not the founder-acarya of that eternal ISKCON'85 I am ISKCON. Im not different from ISKCON. I am Bhaktivedanta [Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja]. Like father, like son. I am the real successor of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja, and there is no other. You should know this very openly. I am Bhaktivedanta and he is Bhaktivedanta, but he received this name after I did. Im senior to him in this regard'85 Im Bhaktivedanta, and Im also ISKCON. Dont think that Im out of ISKCON.....Now i am senior to him in this regard!....so much for our freind.Simply a wolf in sheeps clothing!....wearing a Jains mask!

VEDA you did not explain your knowledge of "Jadurani dd >> Shyamarani dd" that you put forward. As was asked of you before do you really know her? and the details surrounding her name? or re-initiation as you put fourth? It seems Portnoy does know some more details and there was no so called "re-initiation" involved.

It is very common in Bengal and India in general especially in the village areas that people of your own age and standing may use your name, but people who are younger or older than you will use a different name to address you and quite often it can be a unique name, a pet name or nick name.

SGD you are not being very clear and you have not put any detail forward (other than names) about any so called "re-initiations" of Srila Prabhupada disciples. Prabhupada disciples that take shelter of NM maybe awarded different names but that is a name based on their special relationship (shiksha) with NM. But that is not re-initiation or denying their eternal relationship with Srila Prabhupada. SGD NM is talking about the international society for Krishna Conciosness that started with Krishna and was continued by Sriman Mahaprabhu and all of his followers and most pre-eminently by Srila Prabhupada, he is not talking about the Institution, again you read but you dont comprehend.

Non Prabupada disciples that have for whatever reason rejected their Iskcon or other guru generally may take full initiation but that is simply considered initiation.

All I have seen so far in this forum is accusations and innuendos and zero evidence of any wrong doing by N.M. Not something I would use to start blaspheming a Gaudia Vaisnava in good standing.

BY: JADURANI DASI (SYAMARANI DD) ...this was taken from her correspondence :homonyn iskcon...........so has she accepted reinitiation?obviously so!
So why Manasi -seva and Portnoy do you support Narayanna maharajas stratagey of re-initiation of Prabhupadas disciples......have you Portnoy so little faith even in your guru?Our Srila AC Bhaktiuvedanta swami Prabhupupada was not a gaudiya math person....even he accepted he was an iskcon man birth after birth.
Narayana Maharaja Los Angeles, California - May 31, 2000: "Never. Srila Swami Maharaja has not instructed like this. Has he said that we should go to the atheists university? ... Has Srila Swami Maharaja told anywhere that you should go to this bad university or that bad university? What will be the result? Narayana Maharaja December 3, 2001 India: "So many of those who claim to be disciples of Prabhupada neither have faith in him nor in nama-bhajana. Rather, they have faith in universities and mayavada professors. Did Prabhupada tell anyone to learn from mayavadi professors? How can we accept them as ISKCON devotees? They have no faith in ISKCON and ISKCON principles."
Such a comment by Narayanna maharaja shows his slipping in and out of reality!He has not come and submitted to the ISKCON GBC.....nor has he been initiated into the ISKCON line!....maybe he has according to your mood manasi-seva and potnoy accepted an iskcon guru......just by accepting another name but has not been properly initiated?Maybe his real name is.......

Will somebody please put a muzzle on this idiot!

An extract from Narayanna maharaja....."At the time of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Thakura, Srila Sarasvati Thakura was the president of ISKCON. He sent one arm, Srila Prabhupada Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja, who was given sannyasa by Srila Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Gosvami Maharaja, and who then gave ISKCON its English name [Previously it was called by different names, like Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti,* Gaudiya Matha, Visva Vaisnava Raja Sabha, and Krsna-bhakti-rasa bhavitah mati.] Your Prabhupada, Srila Swami Maharaja, only changed the name into English. He is not the founder-acarya of that eternal ISKCON. [Srila Prabhupada sometimes said he was the founder-acarya for two reasons: for management and legal purposes, and also for the faith of his young disciples who would not have understood another presentation at that time.] The founder-acarya is originally Brahma, and it was actually established by Krsna. All of you who are following this disciplic succession are ISKCON. Dont think that you are not. I am ISKCON. Im not different from ISKCON. I am Bhaktivedanta [Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja]. Like father, like son. I am the real successor of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja, and there is no other. You should know this very openly...
Actually this is a very unusual look into the future of the ISKCON -gaudiya math relationship by Narayanna maharaja......i wonder wether his godbrothers and other gaudiya math leaders would agree that they were swallowed up by us recently!
Since we are the worldwide preaching movement....what have we to gain except to try and help such a relitively small outfit!
Also since his claim is that he is srila Prabhupadas successor why is it that srila Prabhupada himself did not mention this to us in his last will and testiment!Why did my guru,both whom were extremely close to srila Prabhupada never mention this startling news?Which Tamala krishna Goswami and Bhavananda prabhu failed to do.....in twenty years of closely serving and hearing from them everyday!
Obviously this is another example of an ambitious spiritualist who is overcome by the treasures he will be able to syphone off from our Iskcon society.The mere contenplation of which has literally sent him over the edge.
Since we are all ISKCON ....does this infact mean that Prabhu-vishnu swami can infact turn up and sell off the gaudiya math temples.......like he can within the South Pacific zone.Obviously not......so what is the meaning of these bizarre and somewhat outlandish and ridiculous suggestions?
What he is hoping to do,in my humble opinion is convince the neophyte ,who is fickle,relatively uninformed and generally not properly situated to jion his small team.The only positive of this ,would be the intelligence levels of both teams might infact rise!
However after such activities have settled they will realise they do not have the shelter of the empowered worldwide society....but simply jioned a local office in comparison without the books and true spiritual heritage and proper preaching mood!
Also our guru is The real deal....Founder Acharya of ISKCON...we do noy have to juggle words to make some pathetic play for his worldwide society!
However they,....Narayanna maharaja and his small team of ex-Prabhupada ...reinitiated disciples, have truly miss read the real situation of Iskcon.In simple language it is Business as usual.We have our problems but they are small and will naturally disappear as this generation of Direct Prabhupada Disciples pass on!

Do you really think anybody is going to read all that crap you just wrote, New Zeland Das? Youre wasting your time -- which brings me to the obvious question that if youre the great front line sankirtana preacher that you constantly claim you are -- how is it that you have so much free time to spend on the Internet. Just at this one website you obviously spend hours and hours every single day. You never write about your daily experiences of preaching and distributing books and the wonderful feelings one gets from turning people on to Krishna consciousness. Why is that? All I ever heard from you in all this time was that you and a few of your kids sold sunglasses one day. Sankirtana devotees love to talk about the people they meet on the streets, the programs they put together for chanting and preaching, going out chanting in public and distributing Bhagavad-gitas and Krishna Books. Why is it that you never ever ever try to inspire us in this way? Instead you fumble away at your keyboard repeating the same mindless banter day after day; hour after hour and sometimes minute after minute. Even if you were a quick thinker and speedy typiest Id have to guess that youre spending many hours every day right here -- and somehow I dont get the impression that you are a quick thinker nor a fast typist. So whats really going on there in New Zealand, little buddy? I think youve been yanking our chains and making claims that arent true. I doubt seriously that you ever even leave your house. Why not give us the name of somebody who can vouch for you? Come on, oh best of the ISKCON team players. You ask everyone what team they are on and which ISKCON authority and center they serve. Why dont you answer your own questions. Im curious and maybe others are, too.

well portnoy prabhu ...first let me please offer my sincere humble obeisances to the many senior and more sincere devotees of srila PRABHUPADA.But especially yourself and Manasi-seva though in the oppersition ...i am definitely learning and hopefully aspiring to become a better servant of Srila AC Bhaktivedanta swami Prabhupada as a result of your decisive articles and aggressive personal testimony .I am a very unusual devotee in that i AM a residue of the former Iskcon world.Where we really beleived that Iskcon will eventually succeed and save the world from itself in the darkest moment.Daily i am a farther of 5 children,we all work in a very small shop selling sunglasses ,tee shirts and cds while playing kirtan and talking about krishna everyday...I literally am still doing what i did thirty years ago when i jioned ISKCON!In the morning we have a class and chant Hare Krishna for i hour approximately.My children do not go to school because i want them to have all the choices that only bosses enjoy.Since i am a boss in a small way myself.
Now though i am 49 years of age and am expected to lead the largest maori landclaim and treay of Whaitangi claim for my whanau tribe.Whose name is Te parawhau of taitokerau....north auckland .Most days i travel new Zealand selling New Era baseball caps which i bring in to New Zealand directly from foreign countries....just a sankirtan devotee...at heart.Which i do every day of the year...usually sunglasses with one of my two teenage sons or daughter.However my wonderful wife has asked to have a real home one day on our ancestial land before she passes on to serve srila Prabhupada in what ever planet we go to ,to continue our service,......once again please accept my humble obeisances and sincere good wishes.....even though we might be adverseries....for a while further!....hare krishna ...your servant!...Ps in my culture we would fight to death during the day and party at night as freinds.....till next days battles like in mahabarata!...So i am actually becoming transcendental as a result of your aggressive dialogue.

SGD I dont hate you, "Hongi" ... you will know what that means...and accept my humble obeisances.

Nothing delights me more than when I see the Maori Haka its ancient tradition at its best. Before the west started dominating everything.

To be honest your dogmatic ways and one eyed Iskcon Institution mindedness drives me up that wall, but I still dont hate you. I just see you as a person that needs a fuller more richer experience of KC than what is offerered within a defensive institution that has lost its way.

Actually we are on the same team as you. I respect that you are from an ancient Maori clan and I really respect that you are sharing that with us.
At worst see me not as a rival clan but as cousin clans the same as your own, but with new respectful uncles that we have discovered. Yes we honour and respect the new uncles for it would be offensive to do otherwise no? but we shall never stop worshiping the head of our internal clan Srila Prabhupada before we worship anyone else...at least that is how I feel...Any kirtan I sing or prayer I make, it always begins with Srila Prabupadas.

This movement some say started with Sriman Mahaprabhu others say Krishna, of course Srila Prabhupada is the pre-eminent Gaudia Vaisnava devotee of Mahaprabhu of this Yuga, that is written into history, and will always be so, and he is our saviour, I have met not one devotee that would argue this.

Srila Prabhupada was like the shining sun and it pains me to this day that I was so sinful and so unfortunate not to take his darshan, that is my misfortune. The Srila Prabhupada disciples are so fortunate for they had his darshan. But as the sun goes down and darkness prevails we are all put to the test, during the darkness many bad things have happend which has tested everyones faith.

We love Srila Prabhupada and want nothing more than to see him glorified more than anyone, after all he is our saviour. No one came to the west to save us but he did. I think it is great that your whole family are devotees and it honours you the head of the family, that your family follows you and Srila Prabhpada.

As you look to defend the walls of Iskcon which I perfectly understand, myself and I know others here see Krishna Consciousness to be very broad and encompass many devotees of Sriman Mahaprabhu not only within the institution called Iskcon. It is a spiritual family not some club that a select few can sell tickets to attend.

The fact is we are not adversaries or in battle against each other, we are on the same team its just a matter of realizing it.

Hare Krishna SGD all glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Did you ever see the movie "Once Were Warriors?" Thats one of the most powerful movies I have ever seen. In fact -- I heard that in many residential drug and alcohol rehabs its required viewing. Quite frankly, what little I know of modern day New Zealand is from that movie. Also many years ago I engaged in an ongoing correspondence with a very nice girl who moved form Spain to Dunedin. She was very attracted to Krishna consciousness and had begun reading Srila Prabhupadas books and chanting before she ever met a devotee or walked into a temple.

Speaking of temples. In 1970 Srila Prabhupada awarded sannyas to four of his disciples. Aside from Kirtanananda they were the very first sannyasis in the movement. Anyway - after a few months went by all four of them were sent away on Srila Prabhupadas order due to disobedience and misrepresenting the teachings of His Divine Grace. Some time passed and gradually all four prodigal sons did return to Prabhupadas ISKCON family. One of them -- Brahmananda Swami -- had begun preaching, chanting and distributing books in a park in Coconut Grove, Florida -- near Miami Beach. He wrote to Srila Prabhupada and described how he was going every day to that park much like Srila Prabhupada did in Thompkins Square Park in New York when he first began his mission in America. Srila Prabhupada replied to his letter saying, "I am very happy to hear that you have established a temple there in Miami. He further explained that stones, marble, buildings ... were not the essence of what constitutes a temple since temple really means preaching center. Since Brahmananda was preaching and chanting, distributing books and even some prasadam ---- Srila Prabhupada considered that to a bona fide temple.

There are many centers and temples throughout the world and not all of them are listed in Back To Godhead magazine. This was Srila Prabhupadas idea -- that eventually householders branch out into the world -- into communities and towns all over -- and make Krishna the center of their lives as they raise their children, work at their jobs and live their lives. His vision was all inclusive and universal. ISKCON, in the final analysis, is a living concept, a way of life and wherever there are aspiring Vaisnavas who are following the instructions and teachings of Srila Prabhupada and spreading the message to others --- that is ISKCON. In this regard also I dont think Narayana Maharaja was being disrespectful or offensive to Srila Prabhupada. He was simply pointing out that fallacy of thinking on a kanishta sectarian platform and not perceiving the fact that Prabhupadas ISKCON is a branch of the Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya. But its irrelevant. I dont think its to anyones benefit to split hairs and analyze everything Narayana Maharaja does or says in order to engage in some debate about whether hes pure or not pure, envious, ambitious ... this or that .... these things are not for us to dwell on.

One last comment if I may. Bickering, battling, back-biting, barking at each other is all sense gratification and mental speculation. Its to no avail. I am guilty of it and I know that it is foolish endeavor and gets us nowhere. Moreover -- imagine the person who comes upon this website to learn about Krishna consciousness. Whew!!! Im almost wondering if maybe certain topics should be limited to only registered account holders??? Gaudiya Discussions and its step-child Gaudiya Repercussions utilize that concept (and by the way -- I found both of those websites to be very repulsive).

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]Sorry Kula- pavanna we are iskconites.....life after life we will follow srila Bhaktivedanta swami Prabhupada and his preaching mission and flavour....not some pretender who attempts to twist our gurus legacy and then trys to usurp his position........[/quote]
This is the way you see it, but others see it differently, and it is their choice. If I were to chose between NM and Radhanatha M. for example, I would choose NM without a moments hesitation. All those guru wars only discourage new people from taking up Mahaprabhus mission seriously. From all of the 700 verses in Gita only a handfull speak about the guru - less than 1% - the rest is about Krsna and the process of reaching Him. But in Iskcon it is almost the other way - it is all about guru. No wonder so many people see us as a cult.

Portnoy, I just visited the Gaudia Discussions website,

http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/

I think its an awesome website, what did you find so replusive about it? I havent checked out the threads yet...maybe thats where the hairy stuff is. It seems to be a bit of a free for all including some stuff in there re: the Siddha Pranali group which I dont discount. But thats what you get with the online digital age its all there right in front of you.

In the dark days of Iskcon they hid everything, when I first went to India, Mayapur & Vrindaban in 1981. The Iskconites were so much into control when we visited Bhaktisiddantas ashram they physically stood in-front of us stopping us from looking at his books. We could visit the temple but no bookies lookies! Which did not work, it created more of a mystery.

Actually Portnoy Prabhu ...we have huge potential and opportunities for you in the South Pacific , Australia and Mayapura to PREACH within ISKCON .All you have to do is forgive your godbrothers and the GBC.Such a sweet transcendental mood is what Bhavannada Prabhu has presently, and therefore he has the most wonderful service of practically organising the Planetarium and building Mayapuras transcendental city with Ambarisa das. BY: JADURANI DASI (SYAMARANI DD) ...this was taken from her correspondence :homonyn iskcon...........so has she accepted reinitiation?obviously so!.....

One more time sonny boy. The name Syamarani is a nickname that Narayana Maharaja calls her and out of her love and respect for her siksa guru she goes by both names. She was never never never never (you do know the meaning of the word never?) NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER ... NOT EVER NOT EVER NOT EVER .... DIDN"T HAPPEN, NEVER HAPPENED, NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO ... NEVER REINITIATED!!!!!!!

Learn how to read and listen you fucking idiot!!!!!

I dont know why I even waste my time because you are such a fucking fucking fucking ignoramus with shit for brains .... She was never re-initiated so shut the fuck up you fucking fucking idiot. God damn you. What is your major malfunction? You are a fucking retard. A retard. You are retarded. Go get some help. I am sixty four years old and in all my years and travels and all the thousands and thousands of people I have met and known you are the biggest fucking idiot I have ever come across. Congratulations! You win the prize! No more. I will not respond to you anymore. My blood pressure cant handle it. You dont listen. You dont learn. You are stuck on STUPID. Fucking stupid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Manasi Seva: The reason I did not like Gaudiya Discussions is because it was run by a youngster named Madhava Das (who was living in India and who later became a Buddhist and is now pretty much an atheist living back in Finland where hes from originally). I think he started out in ISKCON as a Harikesa disciple. Can you imagine? Poor guy! Anyway he figured out finally that he was sold a bill of goods by the organization that still uses the name ISKCON with their appointed and elected gurus ..... and he then went to some Baba Hari (I believe was his name) for initiation and he also took to the line of thinking (which generally began with Lalit Prasad, the brother of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur) that both Gaudiya Math and ISKCON were not in the line of Caitanya Mahaprabhu and were renegade unbonafide branches due to deviations on the part of Saraswati Thakur and subsequently all his disciples including Srila Prabhupada. So although very learned in sastra those people couldnt get much more offensive. They were the most dangerous because they were drawing people in with the name "Gaudiya Discussions" and then before someone even knew what was happening they were being spoonfed poison. Gaudiya Discussions doesnt exist anymore and they took down the site years ago but then decided to bring back some of the more popular threads in an archives setting which is probably what you found.

Gaudiya Repercussions on the other hand was begun by ex-ISKCONers who left, lost their faith, felt bitter and cheated and wanted a forum to process their feelings and thoughts of having been lied to and cheated and sucked into a cult that they finally figured out was not only NOT the absolute truth -- but was a bunch of lies. They have a good time making fun of everything about Krishna consciousness, including and sometimes especially Srila Prabhupada and his books and teachings. Theyre not as sophisticated in their offensiveness --- but its not a pretty sight/site.

Thanks Portnoy for the nice explanation.

SGD, What is so obvious is that you do not read, comprehend or know how to use a forum environment, and it appears that you never read the thread from last point of where you posted. It seems any words of praise we spoke to you and respect of your Maori culture completely fell on deaf ears, and in return you ask people to submit to the train wreck that is Iskcon and vile creatures like Mr Charles Bacis.

You need to understand SGD the links you are reading here: http://www.harekrsna.org/gbc/themes/Jadurani_REFUTATION_Syamarani.htm

Stated the following "[PADA: FOUNDER ACHARYA. First of all, notice the immediate disrespect to Srila Prabhupada. He gave "Jadurani" that name, and now she has been in essence "re-initiated" by Narayana Maharaja with a new name -- "Shyamarani."

But in Syamarani dds own words found here: http://www.vnn.org/world/WD0006/WD25-6049.html

Is the following statement:

"My first question to Syamarani dd after her lecture, was, "did you get reinitiated ? ", to which she "strongly" replied that, "no, it is a great offense to take reinitiation".."My new name is like an affectionate nickname"."

Which is exactly what Portnoy said!

SGD this totally refutes both of what you and VEDA have offered up on this subject. Both of you are completely un-informed on this subject, neither of you do much in the way of investigation to get to the facts. Yet both of you stroke each others egos and pretend that you are some sort of authorities here.

Its sad to see that what was once a glorious Iskcon when Srila Prabhupada was here has sunk to such lows that it swamps its followers in so much mis-information and they happily swallow it all without question.

Hrdayananda Maharaja, letter Thursday, 7 December 2000: "Narayana Maharaja states that he is the first or maybe the true disciple of Srila Prabhupada etc. Actually I have personally served Srila Prabhupada for so many years as a GBC member and he has never mentioned Narayana Maharaja, nor was Narayana Maharaja engaged in any significant service to Srila Prabhupadas Mission. Srila Prabhupada never told in any book, article interview or any other documented statements, that Narayana Maharaja should become the siksa guru of ISKCON."] ......So manasi seva you seem happy and able to relate to PORTNOYS low-class behaviour so you certainly are in the right team .As i said the other day when all of the disloyal,lazy and blasphemers left ISKCON to join Narayanna maharajas team the intelligence level of both teams increased at least that is a positive for you and Narayanna maharaja!

http://www.bhaktiart.net/?page=index&action=read&news_id=5&from=page=index.....this shows the re-nitiation process is alive and offensively well within the Narayanna maharaja camp as he attempts to steal Srila Prabhupadas devotees by this OFFENSIVE.....preaching strategy!
[Her spiritual master is His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, the founder-acarya of ISKCON, and world-famous preacher of Krsna Consciousness and Vedic culture, and the saintly spiritual master of millions of spiritual seekers. Soon after meeting him, she was initiated and given the name Jadurani dasi. (Later on, in 1992, he inspired his spiritual successor, Srila Narayana Maharaja, to give her the additional spiritual name of Syamarani dasi, and she became one of his first few disciples.)]...this was taken from Jadurani devi dasi......now Syamarani devi dasi .... her artists site above..Such cheaters ! Sri Portnoy and Manasi-seva are just cheaters .......How does it feel to be revealed before the international Vaishnava community as simply cheaters!

How does it feel to be revealed before the very few people that visit this forum SGD as a complete moron?

You are simply quoting Iskcon puppets and all of the mis-information that suits their agenda of the day. You wont even accept Syamarani devi dasis own words that she was not re-initiated!

Of course she can be one NMs disciples she is taking shiksha from him you idiot! and she took dishka and continues to take shiksha as well from Srila Prabhupada and remains his disciple.

Why is it that you cannot add 2 + 2? It really isnt that hard, but I guess you were snoozing when the brains were being handed out.

Enough...believe what you want, I couldnt careless. One thing is for sure you could not convince me of anything, your logic is totally flawed or in your case vacant like your intelligence.

Please do not respond to me anymore SGD it ends here.

Thats it -- as long as this guy continues posting here Ive got to go .. and I would advise everyone else to also leave. Do you really want to be associated with this idiot? If you arent embarrassed by the thought of an inquisitive seeker coming here for information and reading the crap this guy writes - as am I - then somethings wrong. A few of us have tried to shut him up and slap him down but hes like one of those bozo punching bags that just keeps on popping back up with a stupid frozen smile on his painted face. This could be a serious and useful website but as long as a moron like him insists on taking over every meaningful thread -- contributing the most in quantity and the least in quality -- this place will remain a sewer of misinformation and misrepresentation. Somebody needs to take the responsibility. I dont know who runs this thing but you really ought to rethink your purpose.

> SGD this totally refutes both of what you and VEDA have offered up on this subject. Both of you are completely un-informed on this subject, neither of you do much in the way of investigation to get to the facts.

It doesnt. I only offered the fact (which you missed) that the change of name is the aspect of pancasamskara.Then I offered the above PADA link where its suggested that SP disliked such nicknames. At least Im not aware that he ever used them for any disciples of other gurus who may have approached him for siksa. If you can find some, itd support that NMs approach is in sync with SP. So far I dont see much in common in them.

In the same text J./S. says she wasnt re-initiated. I didnt miss it. But thats the only part you like so you present it as your investigation. No, the real investigation would be to get personal testimonies of persons who were present when NM gave S. her new (nick)name and if any other elements of diksa were present or not.

> Yet both of you stroke each others egos and pretend that you are some sort of authorities here.

Haha. This fits you and portnoy. Youre the only real tandem here, completely in sync with adhominem vulgarity and anti-ISKCON agenda (against ToS). Since you appreciate GR, why are you still here? This is a proper place for you to cultivate your mentality. I appreciate portnoys dislike of that forum though.

If you want to be authority here (or anywhere) become useful. Its that simple. This forum is about pariprasna, so offer Krsna jnana and Krsna katha. But so far you proved yourself only as authority on vulgarity and hate.

> Its sad to see that what was once a glorious Iskcon when Srila Prabhupada was here has sunk to such lows that it swamps its followers in so much mis-information and they happily swallow it all without question.

Youre like the atheists and former theists who cant stop talking about God and church they left. Kamsa mentality.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
Hare Krishna.

Thank you Sri Govinda for posting those shocking, unbelievably deluded quotes of NM! Like their guru, those who follow NM give lip-service to the glories of Srila Prabhupada, but we should not be fooled. They have their own opinion about the usefulness of what they are doing but because their opinion countradicts the instructions of the Acarya, it is useless.

Anyone who loves Srila Prabhupada or what he has given to us and reads those shocking quotes will clearly understand what NMs actual position is. Nobody has to expose him, he exposes himself. Those who think Srila Prabhupada is dead and gone, out of sight-out of mind, who are faithless and ungrateful, who do not understand our philosophy of absolute surrender and eternal service are the unfortunate ones, and NM is similarly unfortunate for having acquired such persons. Really, it is a blessing for our movement that NM attracts those kind of persons out of our lives so we can focus fully on absolute surrender at the lotus feet of Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga.

Srila Prabhupada told us, &quot;Dont be surprised at who goes, be surprised at who stays.&quot;

The Sri Guru Acaryas instruction: So it is better not to mix with my Godbrothers very intimately because instead of inspiring our students and disciples they may sometimes pollute them. This attempt was made previously by them, especially Madhava Maharaja and Tirtha Maharaja and Bon Maharaja but somehow or other I saved the situation. This is going on. We shall be very careful about them and not mix with them. This is my instruction to you all. They cannot help us in our movement, but they are very competent to harm our natural progress. So we must be very careful about them.'94 Srila Prabhupada.

The Sri Guru Acaryas vision and encouragement: &quot;Their policy has been all along to suppress me and take credit for himself. Their proposal for cooperation is a myth. They haven'92t done anything which is cooperative. You know in a recent article they managed to write in such a way that Madhava is doing the world movement and we are his subordinate. From the beginning that has been their mentality. So there is no possibility of cooperation with them. Rather you should avoid strictly meeting with them. They are not after preaching but material gain and reputation and adoration. Otherwise why they are non cooperating with me? So no cooperation is possible. Do not think or indulge in loose talks. Be careful always. Let us do the duty of propagation sincerely and seriously on our own principles. Krsna and Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura are our only hope and they and helping us.&quot; Srila Prabhupada.

The Sri Guru Acaryas deliberation: &quot;The order of the spiritual master is the active principle in spiritual life. Anyone who disobeys the order of the spiritual master immediately becomes useless. Persons who strictly follow the orders of the spiritual master are useful in executing the will of the Supreme, whereas persons who deviate from the strict order of the spiritual master are useless.
Paddy is mixed with straw at first, and one must fan it to separate the paddy from the straw. This example given by Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami is very appropriate. In the case of the Gaudiya Matha members, one can apply a similar process. There are many disciples of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, but to judge who is actually his disciple, to divide the useful from the useless, one must measure the activities of such disciples in executing the will of the spiritual master.&quot; Srila Prabhupada
Hare Krishna.